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Revision as of 18:42, 22 June 2009

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Under the title “Findings of fact” in the section titled “Locus and state of dispute” ArbCom outlined the nature of the content dispute between the parties being:

1. the appropriate titles for the article or articles concerning the country of Ireland and the island of Ireland
2. the ambiguity that exists because the designation "Ireland" is used in English to refer to both of these
3. disagreements concerning recent page moves relating to these articles
4. whether consensus was properly obtained for the moves
5. the extent to which the current article titles conform with the requirement of maintaining a neutral point of view.

Points 3-5 have not been addressed at all during any of the discussion; while points 1-2 have been endlessly discussed with no resolution been achieved. At the moment, we have been unable to locate the discussions which lead to the consensus for points 2 and 4. This proposal will not be directly addressing these issues.

My rational

My proposal is based on a number of long standing policies of the project. They include consensus, neutral point of View and verifiability based on reliable referenced sources. This is how the project deals with content disputes. Voting and polling based on Editors particular opinions/bias runs contrary to the stated polices outlined above. I have stayed within ArbCom’s Final decision, and based my proposal on the Principles laid down. Based on this then, per Naming conventions, use of the term “Ireland” for the State/Nation/Country reflects current official usage by the UN, Europe and by the UK Government. The Government of the nation refers to itself as "Ireland." Numerous evidence cited indicates that the most common usage of the term "Ireland" is in reference to the Nation/State/Country, and not the island land mass. In addition, as pointed out by ArbCom in the section titled “Locus and state of dispute”, article titles must conform with the requirement of maintaining a neutral point of view, and based on all the available sources it does. This proposal is directed towards the Community and the reader and is not intended to appeal or appease any one group or individual as the suggested polls will possibly do. It will also allow for the implementation of changes which cause the least amount of disruption to the project or the current articles. Having worked out any possible concerns it would be the intension to place a notice on the various notice boards and ask for Community endorsement.--Domer48_'fenian' 20:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Guidlines

The guidelines at the head of each section are designed to facilitate discussion, and prevent disruption or off topic distractions. Based on our talk page guidelines the are reasonable in light of previous discussions. As this proposal is a work in progress which I will be placing before the community as a formal process, I will moderate the discussion according to the guidelines outlined on the proposal, however, if one or all of the moderators wish to adopt the process (this should not been seen as an endorsement of the proposal) it would be very welcome. The guidelines must be viewed as part of the process, and will themselves form part of the final proposal.

Proposal

1. To move the article currently at Ireland to the article title Ireland (island).
2. Move the article currently at Republic of Ireland to the now vacated article title Ireland
3. The now vacated article title Republic of Ireland be populated with this article here.

Each Article would have a disambiguation hatnotes such as:

• For the Article on the island see Ireland (island).
• For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland.
• For other uses, see Ireland (disambiguation).

Support

Please do not add any comment besides signing your name here. If you agree or disagree post a comment in the sections below.

1. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:52, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
2. --Tfz 12:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
3. --GoodDay (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
4. --BigDunc 19:52, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Please do not add any comment besides signing your name here. If you agree or disagree post a comment in the sections below.

1. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
2. MickMacNee (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Scolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments for

Comments must address the content and not the editor. Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time. Moderator/Proposer will remove all infractions of this conditions.

• Per WP:COMMONNAME, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions & Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view Ireland as the name of the State not the island and reflects current official usage by the UN. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

• Per WP:COMMONNAME, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions & Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view The UK Government use the Term Ireland to refer to the Irish State, not the island. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

• Per WP:COMMONNAME, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions & Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. The Government of the nation refers to itself as "Ireland", and not the "Republic of Ireland".--Domer48_'fenian' 17:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

• Per WP:COMMONNAME, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions & Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Today, the European Union note that the names of the Member States (not islands) of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to the Interinstitutional Style Guide rules and that neither “Republic of Ireland” nor “Irish Republic” should be used when referring to the Irish State. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments against

Comments must address the content and not the editor. Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Moderator/Proposer will remove all infractions of this conditions.

• In my view, the primary meaning of "Ireland" is the 32-county country which is currently partitioned between Ireland (the 26-county state) and Northern Ireland. The 26-county state article should therefore have an alternative title e.g. "Ireland (state)". Republic of Ireland - if it is not the title - should redirect to it, since "Republic of Ireland" is, in Irish law, the description of the state. Scolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments neither for, nor against

Comments must address the content and not the editor. Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time. Moderator/Proposer will remove all infractions of this conditions.

1. • The proposal would my first preference. But failing consensus on that, the China method would be my preferred second. Tfz 12:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

References

1. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions is a longstanding policy, provides that:

   Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
   This is justified by the following principle: The names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
   Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

2. A Country by any other Name, Mary Daly, Journal of British Studies, Jan 2007 volume 46 number 1
3. The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office referred to Ireland as the "Republic of Ireland" - however since 2000 it has referred to the State as "Ireland." The credentials presented by the British ambassador, Stewart Eldon, in 2003, were addressed to the President of Ireland.A Country by any other Name, Mary Daly, Journal of British Studies, Jan 2007 volume 46 number 1
4. In 1976 both the British and Irish governments published the United Kingdom / Ireland Double Taxation Convention (SI 1976 No. 2151 and Protocols) . According to JDB Oliver in the British version it originally referred to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland, while the Irish version simply said Ireland. Studies in the History of Tax Law, John Tiley (University of Cambridge. Centre for Tax Law), Hart Publishing, 2004, ISBN 1841134732, Pg. 177, in the 1998 Protocol no such problems existed, with specific reference by name to one country or the other and using the name Ireland. Oliver citing an Inland Revenue Press Release "Inland Revenue Press Release, Double Taxation Agreements: Hong Kong, Ireland and Malaysia. 9 November 1998" which states that “In line with practice following the Belfast Agreement, the term ‘Ireland’ is used in the Protocol whereas the term ‘Republic of Ireland’ was used in the 1976 Convention and previous Protocols.” During a subsequent debate in the House of Commons, on the draft Order, the change in wording was raised, with the Financial Secretary referring the Opposition spokesman to the Inland Revenue press release adding “the treaty thus reflects changing circumstances.” Studies in the History of Tax Law, John Tiley (University of Cambridge. Centre for Tax Law), Hart Publishing, 2004, ISBN 1841134732, Pg. 179
5. Bunreacht Na hÉireann
6. European Union Interinstitutional Style Guide.
7. Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States (edition 6), L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430