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ScienceGolfFanatic still editing?

On my watchlist I still have Phil Mickelson and I believe that ScienceGolfFanatic is back with more obvious sockpuppets matching the P_____number pattern: Pctzgan37 and Pabriella36. I think that from their edit history it is quite obvious that they are the same person that was recently blocked, but I am afraid to start an SPI because I worry that to a user who hasnt seen this case it may look like a random vandal and the case would be denied. Please help if you can, or if not, tell me what I should do. Soap /_{Contributions} 21:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, found and blocked a few more. Thatcher 23:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Digwuren notice

Hi, Thatcher. Could you give the same warning to User:Vecrumba? I'm not sure if he's already been warned, but I outlined my concerns as far as civility just hours ago at his talk page and let him know about WP:DIGWUREN. (However, I am no administrator.) Thanks. PasswordUsername (talk) 21:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, he is already on notice. Thanks. PasswordUsername (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Warning me of behavior (invoking DIGWUREN twice) is not reaching out. Given PasswordUsername's posting was my first (I believe) discourse with PasswordUsername who had refused prior invitations to discuss disputed article content, as here, mine was an objective response. Please see thread on my talk (note time stamp of last contact from PasswordUsername after posting punishment request here, no mention thereof) and associated thread on Great Soviet Encyclopedia. I have asked PasswordUsername to not talk about me behind my back, most recently here which was in response to this. I consider lobbying admins behind my back to punish me a violation of that request. When I mention an editor in discussion, especially with regard to WP contentiousness, I let them know, as here, which I expect as common courtesy. I did not view PasswordUsername's contact as reaching out or conciliatory, rather, it took it as an attempt at intimidation, which (my perspective) was confirmed by PasswordUsername's iteration of the DIGWUREN sanctions, and (my perspective) reconfirmed by his advocacy for punishment here because, apparently, the more the merrier. Lastly, this is a response and not a "counter-request" for punishment. I have no issue working with PasswordUsername should they observe a collegial atmosphere. Vecrumba       TALK 22:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Vecrumba, that you construe a request to ask an administrator to let you know about WP:DIGWUREN an attempt at lobbying administrators to "punish you" really says it all. I don't think I've insulted you here, ever. Lastly, I asked Pjoef if your editing the same material as him after you found his comments at a different article could be construed as stalking (as he's been here a lot longer than I have, and would probably understand the situation better). Need I say that this was after you insulted Pjoef as a "Soviet apologist" here? I'd really better say that I've never accused you of stalking at Hiberniantears' page or anywhere else; the most I'd said was that the fact that you, Biophys, Digwuren, and Martintg seem to continuously edit with one another should be examined as a possible violation of WP:TEAM. (Viriditas, who is uninvolved with your work outside of Human rights in the United States, expressed just the same concerns about bloc editing.) The fact that you and other users repeatedly came to edit the same pages that I did was disconcerting. None of that is "lobbying." Let me simply say that civility and a bit of good faith would be a good thing at this point. If you're not trying to blockshop out of a personal vendetta or deliberately trying to keep battling me, I fail to see what your response to my stricken-out comments here accomplishes. PasswordUsername (talk) 23:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think dialog is having the effect on me that you hope it will have. Thatcher 00:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Hopefully not. I struck out my initial comment a day ago and would rather end the charade still continued in spite of that. If my behavior is a concern for anybody, I am always available to discuss at my user talk space. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

Are you aware that another admin was conducting a thorough investigation of the issue? Offliner (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• Sure, see my comments on the case and on Shell's talk page. No one ever needs to revert in order to edit cooperatively; I consider it the mildest sanction that could be imposed. Thatcher 21:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

Hi, Thatcher–1RR is probably a good thing for a lot of users, though I do have a procedural question. Why wasn't Martintg placed on a 1RR editing restriction? He wasn't involved as a filing party at WP:AE (though he participated in the discussions, giving evidence of others' conduct, as I did), but neither was I a filer of any enforcement requests there. Many of the edit warring conflicts there have involved him, and he appears to have a pretty strong record of taking sides with Digwuren. Thanks, PasswordUsername (talk) 22:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how Russavia (talk · contribs) managed to avoid being placed on 1RR and official notice. Please explain. Colchicum (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Martintg also has a block log for edit warring on an Eastern European article (Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee)): . He was only unblocked because he promised to stop edit warring. Offliner (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• As I said, it was preliminary, and it was based on the diffs and arguments presented in that report. There is a second report still open. I may also review the Digwuren report again. As I said on AE, the perfect has become the enemy of the good. AE has always been about rough justice, not perfection. If someone who "deserves" a sanction gets missed, I'm sure there will be another report about them sooner or later. Thatcher 22:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)}}
  • Agreed with respect to Martintg. Thatcher 10:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I was a bit surprised to see my "Notice of Editing Restriction" followed by a 1RR parole, particularly given your initial assessment. Had I have know that the dialogue above was going on here I would have said some words in my defence. The circumstances surround my previous block was as follows: Normally I am careful, but in the case of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee I had exceeded 4 reverts. I was informed on my talk page that this had occured and immediately undid my last revert. It was subsequently reported to AN3 by Offliner. The report remained open until for almost 24 hours (during which time I made no further edits) before William Connelly initially rejected the report, but after further representations by Offliner (much like he is doing here), William blocked me. I had contacted William and he wasn't aware that I had undid my last edit, which was my fault as I didn't indicate this in the edit comment. For this reason and my undertaking William unblocked me, (I can supply diffs to support all this). William does have a bit of a record for messing up blocks. So I have been careful to restrict my reverts to 2 per day since, but evidently this wasn't acceptable either, which I accept. Certainty PassowordUsername a longer block log than I, so I don't think it is eqitable that I should have the same sanction as he. Certainly your original formal "Notice of editing restrictions" was sufficient. --Martintg (talk) 11:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
      • You've been edit warring for longer than I've been here. If block log length were the issue, Digwuren would be banned indefinitely at this point. (See his history.) Incidentally, I have one more block than you, so I wouldn't use myself as a comparison. I was about to file an AE request, but I figured that the admins were going to get around to looking at you as soon as a full review of the case came up with regard to everyone involved in the recent reverting. PasswordUsername (talk) 12:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I'm looking at User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview which indicates recent edit warring on Russian diaspora and Timeline of antisemitism. Unfortunately, arbitration enforcement is not a scalpel, it is rarely possible to craft remedies with surgical precision that take into account finely discriminated differences in behavior. 1RR is, to my way of thinking, the mildest sanction I can impose, since no editor should need to revert in order to edit cooperatively (as opposed to article or topic bans). Editors who can't live within 1RR, or who game the system by making edits which have the effect of reverting while not being technical reversions, or who return to their battleground articles to make the same revert every 7 days, will find themselves subject to further sanction. Editors who can edit cooperatively will not be troubled at all and will find the limit lifted without too much trouble. I'm willing to consider lifting the limit earlier than 6 months if that is warranted based on behavior going forward. Thatcher 11:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Okay, fair enough. Could you place a similar 1RR parole on Russavia, in the interests of equity. He regularly edit wars like Offliner according to Shell and has quite a long history of 3RR blocks too. In the articles examined by Shell, Russavia edit warred in 11 out of 18, while I edit warred in just 7 out of 18. --Martintg (talk) 11:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There are two more editors mentioned in User:Shell_Kinney/EEreportsreview#Individual editor's contribs, one of them is found to edit war regularly, like Offliner and Biophys, and more than others, what about them? Colchicum (talk) 11:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Their last contentious revert is very recent: . Colchicum (talk) 11:42, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• According to that analysis, Russavia has not been involved in edit warring for a while, except for 3 edits to Kaitsepolitsei on June 6-7, and Ellol just got back from a break. It is certainly reasonable to put them on formal notice, I'd like to see evidence of more current edit warring before imposing 1RR. Thatcher 14:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Comment, according to that same analysis, most of Russavia's edit warring occurred during the March April May, same as me. I had one episode in June regarding Timeline of antisemitism, Russavia had the one episode in June you mentioned with Kaitsepolitsei, but also Nashi (youth movement) ,,. A 1RR parole is meant to be a preventative measure, given Russavia's record, there is just the same likelihood (if not more given his block log) of Russavia edit warring in the future as me. --Martintg (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You raised an issue of inappropriate summary of edit in this diff. However, there (One intermediate revision not shown), so probably Biophys' edit summaries are better than you think. (Igny (talk) 17:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC))

• Thank you, Igny! Although I am retired and would not comment any more, I can not bear that kind of evidence, especially in view of my still active AE case and possible sanctions. Shell said in her summary about me:

• He sometimes uses misleading edit summaries during content disputes or allows his POV to get the best of him . He's also shown some bad judgment for example when removing warnings from other editors talk pages."

• - this is wrong diff (one intermediate version not shown). I said "wikilink" about indeed inserting a wikilink .

• - I said her that I fixed edits by a sock of banned User:Jacob_Peters, but she still did not adjust this her statement

• - I removed a misleading 3RR warning, because I saw previously an administrator doing the same at my talk page. The misleading 3RR warning was placed by a perpetrator, User:Viriditas, who currently serves 48 hours for 3RR violation about which he warned another user.Biophys (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• At least regarding the diff, you are right and Shell was wrong, I did not notice when I copied it from her analysis. Thatcher 19:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Not quite, Biophys: in , I (not blocked user User:Jacob Peters) insisted on keeping well-sourced material by historian Arno Mayer and you kept deleting it repeatedly as it did not show Kolchak very positively. You also deleted and altered content from Offliner's version in Political groups during Vladimir Putin's presidency (), although in your edit summary you merely said that you combined two competing versions of the page. How's retirement? PasswordUsername (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC) (I won't say anything about removing a passage critical of political opposition leader Garry Kasparov with the edit summary "undue weight for a world chess champion" - that's pretty telling itself.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PasswordUsername (talk • contribs)

Another question

Could you please explain to me how a newbie like PasswordUsername, having received two blocks after just two months of joining in April 2009, including a 72 hour block for inserting this, managed to pursuade you to apply a 1RR restriction upon me, yet you seem to be unwilling to apply a similar restriction on Russavia when requested by an editor such as myself having received my first block after two years of joining. I wasn't listed in the original AE reports and I only made a few comments in them and was sucked into this via Shell's investigation, just like Russavia. Unlike me, Russavia has been blocked for two weeks for harrassing Biophys and has two blocks for 3RR. Look at the following table derived from Shell's analysis:

--Martintg (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Seems like you promised William M. Connolley to stop edit warring to get your unblock and then continued edit warring not long after that. You have a pretty good number of reverts at a decent number of articles in just the past month, Martintg. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• My promise was to be more careful and not to re-do the same edit again. I reverted Alexander Litvinenko twice on April 29, Russian diaspora once on the 7th and twice on the 16th of June and similarly low level with Timeline of antisemitism. Note the gap in May, unlike Russavia who edit warred two articles during that month. --Martintg (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Well, I started with the AE report and acted on what struck me the most. Then someone told me about Shell's page so I read it and took additional action. That page did not mention the Nashi article. Thatcher 02:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand this. A 1RR parole for those that already have one is probably the best approach to cool things down, and I'm willing to accept mine for the good of the project, just that knowing Russavia as I do, I wouldn't like him to be tempted into exploiting his position to get the upper hand in future content disputes (and there will be), and the hassle of having to report him in the future. It's all about preventative measures, not punitive measures, right? --Martintg (talk) 03:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• I see your latest action, thankyou. Some sanity should hopefully be restored now. and this whole sorry saga that has consumed the time of a great many people can be finally closed. Cheers. --Martintg (talk) 04:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification

Thatcher, would you mind commenting here on a CU issue, if you have time? Casliber mentioned your views would be helpful, and I agree. SlimVirgin 01:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thatcher 02:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Opinion

Hello Thatcher, I would like to comment on your recent decision on Eastern Europe arbitration case if I could. I was following the case because some of the people I have interacted with before were sanctioned there. I think that some users were punished a little too harsh. This is just my opinion of course and I am not that experienced but this is what I think. I have to say that you guys (administrators) are doing difficult work trying to resolve problems. I also think I don’t even want to become one since to be fair here is not that easy and tasks are too stressful. You did an excellent job analyzing the case but in your final decision, I think you made a mistake. Some people who in my opinion deserved the sanctions more were punished the same or very similar way as the people who were not as much in fault. Some punished people were not even mentioned in Shelly's report at all. I think that was very unfair to them. But again, this is just my opinion which I would like to share with you. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• I appreciate your comments. 1RR limit is not intended to be punishment, although some people may see it that way. No editor should ever need to revert if they are editing cooperatively with others. 1RR prevents future disruption by forcing the parties to discuss their concerns and make a consensus decision rather than "winning" their version of an article by pure force of numbers or attrition. It's true that Shell's analysis did not mention certain editors whom I covered with 1RR, I don't think it's possible to conclude that editors not mentioned on Shell's analysis have not misbehaved; the analysis may be incomplete, as indeed it did not include the recent edit warring at Nashi (youth movement). That incident is striking, because there were something like 28 reversions of the category over 10 days, with no discussion on the article talk page. Some editors reverted 5 times, others only 2, but everyone who reverted had the opportunity to look at the history, and the talk page, and rather than trying to hold a discussion, or requesting outside assistance (like a content RFC, third opinion, or page protection), they each decided to just jump in and revert to whichever "side" they were on. I take this as an indication of long term behavior problems involving these editors, and so the 1RR limit is imposed on all of them. Assuming some of those editors have never edit warred before, never gotten into a battle of sterile reversions without discussion, and this was just a momentary lapse in judgement, then I am willing to consider an appeal and lift the 1RR early. I will, of course, examine their entire recent edit history. Thatcher 13:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer, I appreciate it very much.:) I was wondering, if the "less guilty" people appealed maybe they could be restricted for less time or maybe they could just promise to stay away from the certain articles for a while and pay special attention to edit wars? I'm talking especially about those who have good and clean block history and just happened to be editing inappropriately disputed article last month. I'm sure that they will respect that and they will avoid similar situations in the future. But anyway.. thank you very much again for answering and for all this hard administrative work you are doing.--Jacurek (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I would listen to any reasonable requests. Thatcher 02:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I apologize to intrude. I was on a wikibreak and now i'm trying to catch up, something that might take weeks. I noticed the 1RR on the Eastern Europe arbitration case record of bans. I read part of Shell's notes and checked part of the history of several articles. Basically I have similar concerns as Jacurek. So, if you could allow, I'd like to follow this discussion if it continues. One thing I don't understand is where 1RR applies for these people, in which articles? Broadly defined? Narrowly defined? I believe that people who have not had a history of mischief should not be placed on 1RR, at least not in the broad sense. Otherwise, where is the difference between editors which make constant problems and editors that where caught in editing the wrong article at the wrong time? Also, perhaps it would be wise to set up a dynamic list of articles with recent problems, so in time we could try to address the problems also content-wise. I believe that many articles suffer from the lack of editors because of problems in a reduced number of articles. Thank you very much for listening to me. Dc76\ 18:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The scope is "Articles related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined" as described at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions. I agree that "people who have not had a history of mischief should not be placed on 1RR" but I don't believe I have done so. Do you have a specific user in mind? Thatcher 19:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope nobody will mind much if I reply to this, as I was about to ask this in a new thread - and here I stumble upon the perfect place to do so :) First, for the record, I do think that Thatcher has acted very wisely, and his actions and given out restrictions will bring much desired peace and quiet to the BalticEE topics (thanks T!). But in Poland we have a proverb "where axes are at work, splinters fly" and I think that there is a case for a "flying splinter fatality" here. I am surprised about one restriction, that to user Radeksz. I was actually reviewing his edits independently over the past few days, assessing whether he has a potential to become an admin, and I was about to conclude that yes, I cannot find any significant problems. He reverts occasionally, as do most content creators, but he seems to follow WP:BRT pretty well; he uses edit summaries commonly, he uses talk, and keeps far from the 3RR territory. Further, I don't think any editor has ever complained about Radek being disruptive or edit warring, minus one stale incident seen in his block log (nobody's perfect...). He was not a party to any former ArbCom or AE requests, as far as I know, not even discussed on AN(I) - despite being a highly active user with years of wiki experience. And here, suddenly, an esteemed editor like you puts him on a major restriction (or what at least in my experience is seen as such), which caused me to think about my review and conclusions again. Do you think that Radek is an edit warrior or an otherwise disruptive editor who needs a blemish of a half-a-year-1RR restriction in his wiki history? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

From what I've seen, Radeksz edit wars a lot, and his behaviour at Nashi (youth movement) is not an isolated incident. One only has to look at his involvement in Johan Bäckman or Historical Truth Commission, which includes lot of reverting and little discussion. I think 1RR is justified for him. Offliner (talk) 23:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that a user occasionally disagrees with you and has reverted you several times over the course of a month on a given article, with edit summaries and discussion page comments, is not edit warring. PS. I find it somewhat amusing that a 1RR restriction was imposed on a user who hardly ever reverts more than once a week on a given article :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Radek emailed me and I gave him an answer privately, since it has become a matter of public comment, I will reproduce my answer here.

-- Thatcher 00:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Thatcher. Radeksz's revert ratio as far as a number of Russia-related articles has been disproprtionate to his usage of the talk page. A very good example is the revert editing on the Mark Sirők page, where Radek also has a large volume of undiscussed reverts to previous versions. As I point out right here , Radeksz even reverted an edit where I'd given him new references–and did so with a blind edit summary of "please provide sources." If instead of doing that he'd participated in the discussion instead of undoing my edits, he would have found them. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

What you'd given me was a self published, self referential, advocacy source whereas what I requested was a RELIABLE source. This was previously pointed out to you - that the source you were including was not reliable, yet you still continued to try and cram an unreliable source in there. Yes, I reverted you. As would any reliable editor when somebody tries to back up highly controversial text with a non reliable sketchy source. This is not edit warring. This is ensuring that the encyclopedia adheres to its proclaimed standards. Please refer to this quote from Jimmy Wales on AGK's talk page: which I find quite instructive in this context.radek (talk) 00:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No, what you deleted with the edit summary "again, please provide sources" was material from the Regnum information agency and the International Federation for Human Rights (see diff). These are not sketchy sources - either self-published or self-referential. Regnum is a news bureau and not an advocacy group, and the International Federation for Human Rights is about as "advocacy" a group as Amnesty International. All this is very clear from the diff. And noting what you are reverting will be certainly more important with a 1RR-a-week restriction. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I've asked PasswordUsername to contain content dispute to article talk. The International Federation for Human Rights' (FIDH) Latvian member is Ždanoka's political party, so let's not belittle other editors on admin talk as if something were self-evident, in this case, that the FIDH cannot be regarded as an "advocacy" group. Thank you. PētersV       TALK 22:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please let me explain why all these people reverted each other without talking. I too made a revert in this article with an edit summary that I thought was understandable for all EE editors. Word "Nashi" gave rise to Nashism, a term that has been invented to sound like "fascism" (that was widely discussed in Russian media). Categorizing such organization as "anti-fascist" sounds like a humiliation, even if such view was claimed by certain source(s), like the unofficial propaganda agency of the Kremlin (Regnum). Each editor on every side knew this even better than me. Why explain something that everyone knows? How about inserting "antifascist organization" about Gestapo? Would editors who reverted such category at spot be regarded as edit warriors? This case is indeed a litmus test of who is doing what here.Biophys (talk) 03:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get involved in a content dispute. If the situation is as obvious as you claim it is, then some outside uninvolved editors, recruited via RFC or third opinion, would have confirmed that. Yet in 25 reverts by 9 editors, no one bothered to ask for an outside opinion. Each one of you was convinced he was right, so no discussion or outside opinions were needed. That's fine for your blog or twitter, but not on Misplaced Pages. Thatcher 04:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

IPBE candidate needs review from you...

See User talk:Darwinreynolds. Per your instructions, IPBE was only to be granted for users at the hard-blocked IP address if they were created before June 18; this account was created June 21 but has no vandalisms since being created. Could you review and grant the IPBE yourself if they need it? Thanks! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Replied. Complex situation. Thatcher 03:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks for helping with that. I blocked the User:Fuelthefilm account, as its name violated {{spamusernameblock}}, and since there is already an account which a) is compliant with WP:UN, b) has IPBE c) is active, and d) is obviously the same person, I saw no reason to leave the prior account open to edit, given the violation of WP:UN. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI

I could not retire, although that was my intention. Editing here became an addiction. Yes, I am well aware of editing restrictions. And, yes, I remember and appreciate your advice.Biophys (talk) 00:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, best wishes. Thatcher 00:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Question concerning arbitration

Hi - I see you are active on the arbitration enforcement page today. I posted a question to the associated talk page and am wondering if you could offer me some quick advice on how I should proceed. If you think my concern is misplaced or that I'm going about it the wrong way, could you kindly advise me of that here? I would prefer to keep this very simple and avoid any conflict or extended discussion on the subject, given the "no interaction" editing restriction and the editing history that lead to it. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 14:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

So basically, you are enjoined from talking to each other, so he his badmouthing you to third parties. I would say this is a breach of the arbitrators' intent even if it is not a breach of their specific language. Probably the best course is to post a request for clarification, ask a clerk to notify CoM for you, and have the arbitrators comment. Enforcement might be controversial if the arbitrators have not commented first. But I will nudge them by email to see if they can make it quick. Thatcher 14:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll do that. I don't seek enforcement as such - I would just like to be free of accusations about my editing intentions. Cheers, Wikidemon (talk) 14:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Biophys 1RR

Shouldn't Biophys be formally placed on 1RR now that it's clear that he won't be retiring after all? Offliner (talk) 01:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)