Talk:Sam Fuld: Difference between revisions

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	:::::::You keep on changing your arguments. First, you said there were no citations. Then, with three added, you said they did not indicate that he was Jewish (which was clearly incorrect). Then, when I quoted to you where each of the three so indicate, you assert baldly without any support (and incorrectly IMHO) that they are not reliable sources. There is nothing in the sources that you have referred to that is on its face inconsistent that he is Jewish, and we have three fine citations that indicate that he is. There is no requirement that we go further than this. We need not get his father's mother's birth certificate, a statement from him, or anything of the sort. The articles say he is Jewish, the citations are there, and that complies with Wiki standards.--] (]) 18:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)		:::::::You keep on changing your arguments. First, you said there were no citations. Then, with three added, you said they did not indicate that he was Jewish (which was clearly incorrect). Then, when I quoted to you where each of the three so indicate, you assert baldly without any support (and incorrectly IMHO) that they are not reliable sources. There is nothing in the sources that you have referred to that is on its face inconsistent that he is Jewish, and we have three fine citations that indicate that he is. There is no requirement that we go further than this. We need not get his father's mother's birth certificate, a statement from him, or anything of the sort. The articles say he is Jewish, the citations are there, and that complies with Wiki standards.--] (]) 18:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Let's focus on the sources, please. In the beginning there were no citations. You and another editor added four. One was the only reliable one, and I say that because it was a Q&A with him in which he talked about his religion. The others are Jewish periodicals that just say flat-out that he is Jewish, which would be great and acceptable if we didn't have a Q&A with the man himself seeming to contradict that. That's why we have a contradiction in the article itself.--] (]) 18:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)		::::::::Let's focus on the sources, please. In the beginning there were no citations. You and another editor added four. One was the only reliable one, and I say that because it was a Q&A with him in which he talked about his religion. The others are Jewish periodicals that just say flat-out that he is Jewish, which would be great and acceptable if we didn't have a Q&A with the man himself seeming to contradict that. That's why we have a contradiction in the article itself.--] (]) 18:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::The first of the above cited sources that indicate that he is Jewish is written by Jonathan Mayo. If you are an avid baseball fan, you probably recognize the name. He is a senior staff writer for MLB.com, and has been writing for them on baseball and baseball players for a decade (after moving over from the New York Post). That, and the other sources, are reliable. In the interview he states what his parents' religions are, and that he celebrate Hanukah as well as Christmas, but never states -- as the articles do -- what his religion is. There are many, many Jews who celebrate Christmas, and some even called the tree a Chanukah bush, though I would not expect an Orthodox Jew to celebrate it. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey, only 82% of Jewish households never had a Christmas tree, suggesting that 18% of Jewish household have had a Christmas tree. A study of Jewish households in DC found in 2003 that "35 percent of all Jewish households at least sometimes had a Christmas tree". In a more recent study it was found that over a third of the Jews in Las Vegas, for example, have a Christmas tree, and 21% of Detroit Jewish households with children always, usually, or sometimes have a Christmas tree in the home. In fact, a breakdown of the 1990 survey shows that only 1% of Reform Jews had never had a Christmas tree. If this interests you, you can read more at , . Its simply not a contradiction.--] (]) 12:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)		:::::::::The first of the above cited sources that indicate that he is Jewish is written by Jonathan Mayo. If you are an avid baseball fan, you probably recognize the name. He is a senior staff writer for MLB.com, and has been writing for them on baseball and baseball players for a decade (after moving over from the New York Post). That, and the other sources, are reliable. In the interview he states what his parents' religions are, and that he celebrate Hanukah as well as Christmas, but never states -- as the articles do -- what his religion is. There are many, many Jews who celebrate Christmas, and some even called the tree a Chanukah bush, though I would not expect an Orthodox Jew to celebrate it. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey, only 82% of Jewish households never had a Christmas tree, suggesting that 18% of Jewish household have had a Christmas tree. A study of Jewish households in DC found in 2003 that "35 percent of all Jewish households at least sometimes had a Christmas tree". In a more recent study it was found that over a third of the Jews in Las Vegas, for example, have a Christmas tree, and 21% of Detroit Jewish households with children always, usually, or sometimes have a Christmas tree in the home. In fact, a breakdown of the 1990 survey shows that only 1% of Reform Jews had never had a Christmas tree. If this interests you, you can read more at , , and . Its simply not a contradiction.--] (]) 12:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

	==Source Quality==		==Source Quality==

Revision as of 12:19, 17 July 2009

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Question

Is he related to the great former New York chief judge Fuld? John wesley 14:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

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Religion category

Sam Fuld's religion was originally stated as Jewish in the lead. I removed per WP:LEAD, as well as removing relevant categories, and because there was no sourcing as to religion. Now a Q&A was added as a reference in the "personal" section, substantiating text indicating he is half Catholic and half Jewish, with his mother being Catholic. Ordinarily, as I understand it, religion is determined in the Jewish faith by the mother. In any event, Fuld did not identify himself in this Q&A as Jewish, so I've taken out the categories again.

It's an interesting issue, so rather than revert back and forth I'd suggest that we discuss this here. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

He did indicate that he celebrates both Hanukkah and Christmas. The traditional Jewish practice states that religion is passed with the mother, while Catholicism (I believe) says father - so if you wanted to go by that - he's be 'nothing'. But in modern times less-to-non observant people who find themselves in that situation almost always refer to themselves as half-and-half. There are other athletes who would be considered "half-Jewish" by that modern definition that are also listed in the category. I don't think the category itself implies "practicing Jew", just significant Jewish heritage. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 16:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of sites that reflect that he is Jewish. Johnny's understanding is correct only as to certain sects of Judaism, but not all (e.g., Reform Judaism). I've never read a reference to him being an Orthodox Jew, though, so I would go by the references as Wiki directs.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is a good point. However, the three references added indicate that he was mentioned by Jewish newspapers, but without resolving his religion. Apart from that, I think that it hasn't been established that his ethnic/religious heritage (whatever it is) is significant enough to his notability to justify placing in the first or second paragraph. Surely Hank Greenberg should and presumably does mention his religion in the lead. But in this day and age I think it is an overemphasis. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they do. For example, MOT and Member of the Tribe are slang for Jewish (e.g., the first article says "Now, it just so happens that two of my favorites are also Members of the Tribe. Sam Fuld and Adam Greenberg fit the mold perfectly", and the second one says "And a “welcome back” to Chicago Cubs outfielder Sam Fuld... That elevates the total of MOT back to 13"; and the third citation of course clearly lists him on the "Jewish Sports Review" 2002 College Baseball All-American First Team.). He is no longer in the lead paragraph; he is now in the non-lead second paragraph, so I tried to be sensitive to that point with that move.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sorry you're right that it's not in the lead. But it's at the top of the second paragraph, which is still too prominently placed in the article, given the conflicting and somewhat tenuous sourcing. A casual (and perhaps inaccurate) reference to this gent as an "MOT", and the other sourcing you describe, strikes me as not definitive, certainly for a blanket statement that he is Jewish when it states elsewhere in the article that he is Jewish-Catholic, with his mother Catholic. As you point out, Reform Jewish people would say Sam Fuld is still Jewish; we don't know if he takes that position, and I think that flat-out saying he is Jewish without the source explicitly saying so is outright synthesis. What would resolve the issue is what Fuld himself says. Without that, I think there's not sufficient justification to place him in that particular category and/or to say that he is Jewish. It might even marginally be a BLP issue, not that there's anything wrong with being an MOT, obviously ;). So I'd respectfully suggest that you self-revert until we have better sourcing that doesn't involve our reading stuff into the sources. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 16:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It now is sensitive to your point about and complies with WP:LEAD, in that it is no longer in the lead. It is typical to indicate heritage, if it is indicated, in the early life section, where is where the person's parents are mentioned (presumably since it typically devolves from them), which is where it is now. Where religion/ethnicity/nationality is mentioned, if it is not in the lead that is the typical place it is found. It does not receive undue treatment, a mere two words. The references are not as you suggest casual -- they are actually quite central to the articles, which focus specifically on Jewish ballplayers. There is nothing other than POV that would suggest that the articles are innaccurate. Reform Jews are I believe the largest sect of Jews in the US, and under Reform Judaism one can be Jewish (fully Jewish, I might add) if one's father is Jewish. The sources for saying he is Jewish are many, and they are clear. There is nothing inconsistent ipso facto with him being Jewish and his mother not being Jewish, nor is there a reliable source to my knowledge that states that he is not Jewish. There is no requirement, where we have sources and there are citations to the sources, that we have a statement from him on top of it. I am not as you suggest "reading stuff into sources" -- the sources as I've indicated above with direct quotes are quite clear in stating that he is Jewish. I really see this as a non-issue. We've accommodated your salient points, by moving it out of the lead, and by adding three citations (more than any other point in the article). I think as-is this now complies completely with Wiki standards, and is better sourced than any other fact in the article.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It's really quite simple. There's really only one reliable source on his religion as would meet the high standards for a BLP, and that is the Q&A. That is ambiguous at best, says he celebrates Christmas as well as Judaic holidays. He could be a practicing Catholic for all we know. That is not for us to say, unless he says so. Given that he is the product of a mixed marriage, and has not said one way or the other, it's not for Misplaced Pages editors to say "he's Jewish" or "he's not Jewish." That's synthesis. The second paragraph also contradicts the accurate description of his background in the Personal section. Given that this is a BLP, I think that we have to tread carefully.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

You keep on changing your arguments. First, you said there were no citations. Then, with three added, you said they did not indicate that he was Jewish (which was clearly incorrect). Then, when I quoted to you where each of the three so indicate, you assert baldly without any support (and incorrectly IMHO) that they are not reliable sources. There is nothing in the sources that you have referred to that is on its face inconsistent that he is Jewish, and we have three fine citations that indicate that he is. There is no requirement that we go further than this. We need not get his father's mother's birth certificate, a statement from him, or anything of the sort. The articles say he is Jewish, the citations are there, and that complies with Wiki standards.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's focus on the sources, please. In the beginning there were no citations. You and another editor added four. One was the only reliable one, and I say that because it was a Q&A with him in which he talked about his religion. The others are Jewish periodicals that just say flat-out that he is Jewish, which would be great and acceptable if we didn't have a Q&A with the man himself seeming to contradict that. That's why we have a contradiction in the article itself.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The first of the above cited sources that indicate that he is Jewish is written by Jonathan Mayo. If you are an avid baseball fan, you probably recognize the name. He is a senior staff writer for MLB.com, and has been writing for them on baseball and baseball players for a decade (after moving over from the New York Post). That, and the other sources, are reliable. In the interview he states what his parents' religions are, and that he celebrate Hanukah as well as Christmas, but never states -- as the articles do -- what his religion is. There are many, many Jews who celebrate Christmas, and some even called the tree a Chanukah bush, though I would not expect an Orthodox Jew to celebrate it. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey, only 82% of Jewish households never had a Christmas tree, suggesting that 18% of Jewish household have had a Christmas tree. A study of Jewish households in DC found in 2003 that "35 percent of all Jewish households at least sometimes had a Christmas tree". In a more recent study it was found that over a third of the Jews in Las Vegas, for example, have a Christmas tree, and 21% of Detroit Jewish households with children always, usually, or sometimes have a Christmas tree in the home. In fact, a breakdown of the 1990 survey shows that only 1% of Reform Jews had never had a Christmas tree. If this interests you, you can read more at , , and . Its simply not a contradiction.--Ethelh (talk) 12:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Source Quality

I have a similar issue with the Jewish question. First, I would point out that it likely refers to ethnicity rather than religion, which may qualify him if he is descended from Jews. However, we have no evidence of this. The three sources do not mention Judiasm or Jewish descent. We can infer that he is Jewish because he is featured in these Jewish magazines. However, are these sources reliable enough for wikipedia, especially when we must make inferences.

"Kaplans Korner on Jews and Sports". Sounds like a throwback to the plantation era. On a "Jewish News" website. What about "Jewish Sports review". Do we have "Caucasian Protestant Sports News" or "Ku Klux page on Negros and Sports"? Beganlocal (talk) 18:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ordinarily I think these kind of sources would be OK for most articles. The problem is A)this is religion, always a sensitive subject and above all B)there is contradictory information.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, as mentioned above, they do in fact state that he is Jewish. No inferences needed, but an understanding of what MOT and Member of the Tribe means is necessary. They are both slang for Jewish. The first article by MLB.com's senior writer Jonathan Mayo says "Now, it just so happens that two of my favorites are also Members of the Tribe. Sam Fuld and Adam Greenberg ...." And the second one says "And a “welcome back” to Chicago Cubs outfielder Sam Fuld... That elevates the total of MOT back to 13". And the third citation of course clearly lists him on the "Jewish Sports Review" 2002 College Baseball All-American First Team.). As to what Judaism is, it is a number of things in one -- religion, nationality (albeit dispersed, but the Jewish nation/people is an ages-old concept), and ethnicity. Finally, as discussed above, the other information is not contradictory.--Ethelh (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

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