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Article milestones Date Process Result August 30, 2006 Peer review Reviewed September 23, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 20, 2008 Articles for deletion Kept
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Americanism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Special note: To avoid an external link farm, the numerous articles posted on the subject have been moved to Talk:Anti-Americanism/External link

Bad Quotation?

Is this quote right - I don't have the source, but I don't think the grammar is right. "the belief that what underlies all U.S. actions is a desire to take over or remake the world"

1st paragraph

I edited the first paragraph so that... 1) It specifies that the definition of anti-americanism comes straight from dictionaries, and isn't an official wikipedia position. This matters because.... 2) The definition is bad. All sorts of people oppose American polices or government without being anti-american. As the article itself says later, anti-americanism "configures the way of life as threatening to its core" (or something like that). That's very different from widespread opposition. 3) The article also says definitions are problematic and "incoherent in nature," so we shouldn't be taking a position on that. 4) Finally, the reference about "cultural anti-Americanism" is just a list of google links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noloop (talk • contribs) 03:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Personal Opinions of Various Authors

This article is like a platform for the theories of a handful of authors. The entire degeneracy section is like that. Doesn't seem very balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noloop (talk • contribs) 05:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

What's this article really about?

The article spends the whole first half explaining why there can be no agreement on what "anti-Americanism" means, that sometimes it is Soviet-style propaganda, sometimes it is prejudice, sometimes a mixture. Then it goes on to say all sorts of things about anti-americanism, without specifying which phenomenon it means. That doesn't make sense. Noloop (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the structure of the Islamophobia article is a more neutral than this one. It documents things called Islamophobic by notable sources, rather than claiming they are, in fact, cases of phobia. That's more neutral. This article consists of Misplaced Pages asserting that all sorts of things are anti-American. What do people think of changing the structure of this article to make it more neutral? Noloop (talk) 21:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

It should at least mention that it is often a form of racism. Fuzbaby (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It shouldn't mention that, because that is a personal opinion. (Also, it's a very weird personal opinion...racism against which race?) Noloop (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The American race? I know that seems weird because Americans are made up of all different races, but all countries are to an extent. If someone said "I hate the Swiss" you'd probably call them racist. Why is "I hate the Americans" different? Adam Carolla (talk) 11:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The more I dig into this article, the more I feel it is a platform for propaganda. The structure of the Islamophobia article is more appropriate to topics like this. Are there any objections to listing important cases that are often called anti-American by notable sources. Right now it's just a lot of accusations against people and groups. Noloop (talk) 22:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Canadian anti-americanism

I have a hard time believing that the Canadian viewpoint is not mentioned here. Canada is the birthplace of anti-americanism (Empire Loyalists) and must still be the most consistent in these beliefs. While Canadians do not burn flags, they are Canadians after all, smoldering resentment is stronger in Canada than any other place I have ever travelled to. The national sport of Canada is not hockey if one measures by minutes of water cooler talk, it is anti-americanism. Any American who moves to Canada is considered an American forever... something that is not true of any other nationality. Why? Live there for awhile and you'd see that the metaphor of "sleeping with the elephant" is not too far from the truth. To quote former Mexican president de la Madrid, 'so far from God, so close to the united States", although of course he was referring to Mexico...

All of that is your POV. In fact, the majority of this article is just the POV of Misplaced Pages editors. The whole thing is a travesty of neutrality. Noloop (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is data to back up this POV. Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet. It is also the only country that makes laws with the aim of denying Americans employment, particularly in higher education. There needs to be a whole section on Canada, and we need to be honest here, and I hope that Canadians are honest about this for a change. We are not going to get anywhere through denying that Canada has a problem.

I do not think that you quite grasp how Misplaced Pages works. If you think that "Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet", it is up to you to provide sources to back up such a claim. My feelings are that you will have a hard time finding any reliable sources for that. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I started this topic and I am glad it sparks some discussion. I agree that there needs to be references for anything that gets into the main article, but unfortunately there probably has never been research to confirm or deny statements like "Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet" because it is too controversial. I agree with this statement but so what. I also agree that there needs to be a whole section on Canada (and the historical evolution of anti-americanism in Canada), I agree that we need to be completely honest about it (and I am Canadian). I completely disagree that it is important to see it as a problem. It is simply a national phenomenon with many causes, some historical and some emotional, some valid and some invalid. -KG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.77.135.182 (talk) 20:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Another problem is the lack of a definition of anti-americanism, in the article as well as in this talk page section. So far it sounds more like POV (and OR at best), which should probably be taken to another place (as per WP:NOTFORUM). --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Canada is definitely NOT the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet! There are many countries that would like to lay a claim to the title, with Iran in front by a whisker over Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam, closely followed by Cuba, Russia, Syria, Spain, Germany, France and dozens of other countries! PomsWin (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Where Americans are concerned, Canadians are the nastiest people on the planet. Canadians are obsessed with the idea of hurting America and Americans. They feel this can best be accomplished by stopping all exports of oil, gas, water, and electricity to the US. Now, the Canadians wouldn't do this without a good reason; such as an American Border Guard telling a Canadian to get out of his vehicle without saying please. This is a true example. Check out the CBC Website. Canadians love to respond to news articles. That's where you'll find this stuff. In connection with the export stuff above, Canadians are sent into paroxysms of ecstasy visualizing tens of millions of "Americans shivering in their cold dark homes." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.229.144 (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to say, Canadians feel that cutting off those exports will bring America to it's knees in a few days, with a valuable lesson learned. No other outcome is allowed to intrude itself into their thinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.229.144 (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Middle East

WebHamsrter keeps adding this material asserting that it just says what the cites say, and isn't POV.

The term "Great Satan", as well as the chant "Death to America" have been in continual use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979. The Iranian capital Tehran has many examples of anti-American murals and posters sponsored by the state; the former U.S. Embassy in the city has been decorated with a number of such murals.

As I've pointed out more than once, none of the cites actually say what the article says. The first two don't say "continual use...since...1979". The latter two don't say Tehran is decorated with a number of anti-american murals. The paragraph misrepresentes other authors on the Web, and argues for POV regarding Iran and anti-Americanism. Please stop reinserting it. Noloop (talk) 15:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The references in this paragraph simply don't support the paragraph. (One of the references for "in use since 1979" is dated 1995 and wouldn't be a valid source for what's happpened in the last 14 years anyway.) There is no excuse for reverting without discussion. Noloop (talk) 14:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The first para which you keep deleting "The Great Satan!" is supported by 2 references which demonstrate that this is indeed an anti-American slur. But for some strange reason you delete it. The second para is supported by a reference that does indeed state that the first use was in 1979. It doesn't matter if the article was created in 1995 or 2008, the fact that it was first used in 1979 is still the case and if it was used again in 1995 then it is indeed correct to used the "used since" wording. The fact remains though that as you are trying to remove a referenced paragraph that has been in the article for quite a while then the onus is on you to garner consensus to remove it. Until you do I suggest you either leave it alone or rewrite it. Do not delete it. --WebHamster 14:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Nothing can "demonstrate" that something is anti-American, as this article itself points out. As you, in fact pointed out, "anti-American" is a POV term.

2. The 1st ref is an opinion piece of one writer. It's valid as ref for nothing except that some writer had that opinion. What that ref actually says is that "Ayatollah Khomeini famously dubbed it, as the "Great Satan"." That is the only reference to that term in the article. It says nothing about being the term being "in use." (The phrase "in use" is so vague it's meaningless anyway.) It says nothing about "Death to America."

4.The 2nd ref is also an analysis, not factual reporting. It is written, not by a neutral source, but by the "Director of Threat Analysis in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations" It is published by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a US military organization. Gee, I was expecting the US military to say Iran is mellow, weren't you? Valid references are neutral, and they are factual. Nonetheless, the article doesn't support the reference. It's only claim, which is an opinion, is that (in 1995, when it was written) the "United States continues to represent the Great Satan." That's an author interpretation. So, 14 years ago one person in the US military said the Iranian government thought of the US that way. Says nothing about being "in use" since any time. There is no mention of "Death to America" at all.

5. The last part of the paragraph claims there are many anti-American murals in Tehran. The 1st ref for that is one picture with no article and no claims by any source.

6.The 2nd ref makes no mention of anti-Americanism at all. It's an article written by a photographer describing her exhibition. It's not a basis for reporting as fact that Tehran is has many anti-American murals. Noloop (talk) 23:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you QUOTE the part of the refs you think support the text in question, as a starting point for working toward consensus? Noloop (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You say: "6. The 2nd ref makes no mention of anti-Americanism at all. It's an article written by a photographer describing her exhibition." The source says: "Though less numerous than those depicting the revolution and the Iran-Iraq war, the most thematically persistent murals have featured anti–United States and anti-Israeli images". 76.117.1.254 (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

3O

Hi folks. Third opinion on offer here. If I understand the disagreement properly, it revolves around the following;

i) Whether "the Great Satan" is a current term used in Iran to refer to America (?)/USA.

ii) Whether there is evidence to indicate the frequency of use of "Death to America" chants. I think everyone is accepting the start date of 1979.

iii) Whether there is evidence for Tehran having many anti-American murals or not

I would suggest that if any of the three disputed points are accurate, noteworthy, and non fringe views (which is my, perhaps ill-informed, understanding), then it should be easy to come up with multiple RS's to that effect. I suspect you people are far better placed to chase these up than I am, but I offer these as possible useful starting points for i). You might consider these worth looking into for ii) and as far as iii) is concerned these might be useful, but I'll leave it to you to be the judge.

I think much of the dispute can be settled by wording that closely matches RS's rather than interpolating or synthesising what they might be saying. Some direct quotes might help too, and at the very least in the reference. I hope that's of some help. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 14:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd adjust the description of the dispute a bit.

i)Webhamster's rudeness as seen on his Talk page, in which he basically tells me to fuck off (not in so many words, but that's the gist).

ii)Whether it is appropriate for an encyclopedia to call anything anti-American

ii)Whether the sources are balanced, i..e. neutral weight.

I haven't followed all your links yet. The phrases "current term used" and "in use" are pretty vague. Is "The Roman Empire" a term currently "in use" in Europe? Sure. What about "Axis of Evil" Sure, in some context, sometimes. Does that prove America is racist against Persians?? The term "many" as in "many anti-American murals" is also POV. What's "many?" And what's anti-American? To a reader, it means hostile, hateful murals. To an Iranian it might mean a mural that truly describes the US. Can Misplaced Pages editors just decide their POV is right and the Iranians are wrong?Noloop (talk) 15:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If I were going to tell you to fuck off you would be in no doubt and "gist" wouldn't come up. The problem here lies both in your lack of understanding as to what consensus is (in Misplaced Pages) and the other is your own personal interpretation of the sources. You also seem to have a misunderstanding of the way POV is treated here. The article itself can be about a POV so long as the editors writing it don't show any. As "anti-Americanism" is a POV the sources themselves will show signs of POV. The sources we are talking about are only being used to demonstrate that the comments in the prose exist in the real world, which of course they do. As for stupid comments such as "what's many" well I'm not sure how to explain it to someone who has to ask the question! It's more than a few, duh! The fact you are asking such inane questions demonstrates that you don't have a clue as to what this article is actually about, so how the hell do you expect to edit it? And what the hell are you on about with regard to the Iranian anti-American murals? Do you think we are talking about a nice rural scene painted of central Colorado? Sheesh! This is like ice skating up hill. --WebHamster 16:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Webhamster here. I originally read your point-by-point rebuttal and I thought you were right, but then looking at the sources and what the text says, the source do cover pretty well what is said in the text. Maybe more scholarly sources would be better, and a quick search in google books easily finds several books about the topic, confirming that the statement in the text is factual and relatively uncontroversial. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 20:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't see the "anti-US" reference, but it really doesn't matter. Calling something anti-US, or anti-American is an opinion and shouldn't be reported as fact in an encyclopedia. If it is a notable opinion, the fact of that opinion might be notable, but a photographer just describing their own photographs isn't notable. Noloop (talk) 20:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for your claim that these mural are not anti-US? 76.117.1.254 (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't claim they are not anti-US. I claimed that such discussion are about opinions rather than facts, and that some photographer discussing her pictures isn't a notable opinion. Noloop (talk) 00:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The next two paragraphs are equally bad. Neither of the polls say they are measures of anti-Americanism. The implication that having an "unfavorable" opinion is the same as being anti-American is POV. The Pew poll says nothing about "probing stereotypes". Has anybody actually gone through this whole article and checked the references? The majority of this article promotes propaganda.Noloop (talk) 20:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Seriously, now I can understand Webhamster. Read the opening paragraph. There is a definition of Anti-Americanism, that is, "opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States". Does the Pew poll measure "opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States". Yes, it does, because as the paragraph clearly says, it measures attitutes toward the US and the paragraph closely follows what the polls actually say. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

1.The Pew Poll does nothing of the sort. The paragraph reflects little of what the source says. The source says nothing about stereotypes, but that's the gist of the paragraph. Even if it did, the source would be interpreting not measuring, and an encylopedia doesn't just repeat the opinions of sources.

2. As for the opening paragraphs, why don't you read...

"the nature and applicability of the term is often disputed."

"critics sometimes argue the label is a propaganda term that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational"

"Discussions on anti-Americanism have in most cases lacked a precise definition of what the sentiment entails, which has led to the term being used broadly and in an impressionistic manner, resulting in an incoherent nature in the many expressions described as anti-American."

"American academic Noam Chomsky... asserts that the use of the term within the U.S. has parallels with methods employed by totalitarian states or military dictatorships; he compares the term to "anti-Sovietism", a label used by the Kremlin to suppress dissident or critical thought, for instance"

"...criticisms of the United States are labeled "anti-American" by supporters of U.S. policies in an ideological bid to discredit their opponents."

Given that background, it is hard to see how it's appropriate for editors to be deciding what Misplaced Pages shall consider anti-American, and what it shall not. It isn't a factual matter. Noloop (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

ok, it seems there is a more fundamental issue here; should WP have an article on anti-Americanism. I would argue yes. It is a notable topic that a reader seeking to understand should be able to come to WP and be able to find further info. So, if there is to be an article, then it must conform to WP policies. The guts of this is not aiming for truth, but aiming for balanced coverage. There also is no room for OR. So I think it may be useful to consider the various sources for what is being written and ensure that they are stuck to closely. It sounds like much of that is happening. BUT what else seems to be needed is a section that addresses the various concerns associated with even having a phrase such as "anti-American" - and this section will also have to stick closely to RS. What do you think? Cheers Blippy (talk) 06:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the opening paragraphs, which I excerpt above, are pretty good. They are balanced, and give an overview of the issue. In the opening paragraphs, Misplaced Pages isn't calling people anti-American. It doesn't imply the Middle East is chock full of anti-Americanism. It mentions criticism of the term, and defenses of it. It's the latter sections that veer into rampant POV--saying what's anti-American and what isn't. They don't just report what notable sources say. The other problem is the sourcing gets really bad in the later pargraphs, as I've argued above. I was wrong on a few points about the sources, but the larger point is intact. These problems are related. A poll finds that Middle Easterners have an "unfavorable" opinion of the US, and some editor puts that in this article as a factual case of Middle Eastern anti-Americanism. Noloop (talk) 16:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. However regarding the rest of the article it fits the concluding sentence in the intro very well: "Discussions on anti-Americanism have in most cases lacked a precise definition of what the sentiment entails, which has led to the term being used broadly and in an impressionistic manner, resulting in an incoherent nature in the many expressions described as anti-American".

I am a bit surprised about the definition though, "widespread opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States." With this kind of inclusiveness I would be hard pressed to think of any American that would not qualify as anti-American, because everyone I know has critized one or more of the policies of the United States at some point. However that is the definition, and there is no question that the subject is notable, that is simply not what is being discussed here. The problem seems to be that the article has evolved into a list of examples where everyone has included examples of what they think is anti-americanism or examples where someone has used the term anti-americanism. The article needs structure and clarity.

I would suggest that the article be divided into three main sections, each with a header that corresponds to the definition in the intro, that is anti-americanism as being either cases of opposition or hostility towards "people", "government" and "policies" respectively. Each section could then include examples of anti-americanism being used in each of these cases, perhaps followed by any criticism that may fit into each of these categories. Just a rough idea to get this somewhere. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree that the dictionary definition is useless. Like you said, everybody is anti-American by that definition. It's good that the article specifies that this is something dictionaries tend to say, instead of the article saying so itself.

We can't give examples of anti-Americanism, because that would just be giving our opinion. We need to state facts, which can include the fact of some notable opinions. I think a section briefly listing/summarizing notable claims of anti-Americanism would be OK. We have to make sure we are not giving our opinion of a poll or action that seems anti-American to us (no matter how obvious to us). The point is that we shouldn't tell readers what to consider anti-American. We give them relevant info, and let them decide what to consider anti-American. The second half of this article goes way beyond that. Noloop (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

"We have to make sure we are not giving our opinion of a poll or action that seems anti-American" - As if the section in question gives an opinion about how to interpret the results of the opinion poll. You must be kidding. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

At the very least, putting the polls in an article on anti-Americanism suggests that we interpret them as evidence of anti-Americanism. The polls don't say that, though. The paragraph on the Pew research says it is about stereotypes Middle Easterners have, even though the poll does not say that. It is not even about the Middle East or the U.S.; it is about Muslims and Westerners, including European Muslims and Indonesia. The whole article is full of distorted refs like that. Noloop (talk) 16:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit Warring

I've made the reasons for removing clear, but in an effort to stop the edit warring, I will summarize again. Basically, here are the problems:

1. The sources say nothing about anti-Americanism, so it is only the POV of W. editors to include them here.
2. The statements are not truly sourced, i.e. don't support the text.
3. the sources aren't notable.

The term "Great Satan", as well as the chant "Death to America" have been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979.

says nothing about anti-Americanism. It is POV to interpret the source as evidence of anti-Americanism in Iran. (In the same context as discussing "Great Satan," it discusses Bush's terms ""axis of evil" and "outpost of tyranny".) says nothing about anti-Americanism. It is 14 years old, and not a source of what has happened "since...1979". It is also a publication of the US military, and not neutral.

The Iranian capital Tehran has many examples of anti-American murals and posters sponsored by the state; the former U.S. Embassy in the city has been decorated with a number of such murals.

is just an image. It's not a source. is a college student discussing her photos. It's not a basis for reporting, as fact, that there are "many examples of anti-American murals" It's not a basis for reporting a notable person has that opinion, because she's isn't notable.

What remains is: The chant "Death to America" has been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979. Noloop (talk) 16:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

You can keep wittering on with your own interpretations as much as you like but if they aren't gaining you any consensus for the removal of the sourced sections then you may as well not bother as without consensus the sourced sections stay. Oh and by the way, the ref for The Great Satan is there to demonstrate that it's a genuine term. Also references don't have to apply for the whole of the timeline, the fact they state it started in '79 is enough. Now as you are obviously someone who won't take advice from people who know the rules better than you I don't think I'll bother with any more explanations as you're obviously not listening. I'll just keep reverting any changes you make without consensus. Hopefully your memory will allow you to understand why. --WebHamster 17:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• You are the only person objecting, so "no consensus" is a non-reason for reverting.
• Your opinion is irrelevant unless you can give it in a civil manner, which you failed to do above. You're improving tho.
• "Demonstrating is a genuine term" doesn't demonstrate relevance. The text doesn't say "'Great Satan'" is a genuine term," fortunately, since that would be meaningless.
• If you say something has been in use since 1979, the implication is that it is in use now. A 14-year old source can't do that.
• You addressed none of the problems with the text about murals, even though that is the main part of my edit. So, you haven't even attempted to explain the main part of your reversion.Noloop (talk) 20:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

What don't you understand about the requirement is for YOU to gain consensus to remove long-standing sourced material. You've had several editors tell you this yet you still won't listen. This is the last time I am going to spend on explaining things to you. You obviously have cognitive problems. Like I said I'm not going to spend any more time explaining the way things work to someone like you. You've already wasted both mine and several other editor's valuable time with your self-opinionated twaddle both here and in various other parts of the project. --WebHamster 22:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

1. http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=2455
2. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1851791.ece
3. http://www.nypost.com/seven/06082008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/sympathy_for_the_great_satan_114459.htm
4. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUezKsBCRb
5. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0212/p01s02-wome.html
6. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2007/09/23/2007-09-23_irans_ahmadinejad_issues_new_threats_aga.html
7. www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/12/2541133.htm
8. http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=OTgzMzc3MzI1
9. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/15/TR1R154HL1.DTL&feed=rss.travel

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