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This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Hipocrite and Mathsci are added as parties

1) Please add the following parties:

• Hipocrite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

*Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This addition is solely with respect to actions related to the ban of Abd from Cold fusion, the underlying causes or conditions, or the use of administrative tools by William M. Connolley, while involved or showing favoritism, in this or other incidents.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I haven't reviewed the case in enough detail yet to know whether any additional parties should be added. However, at this point, I believe that all the editors who have been listed are on notice that the case exists and that their names have been mentioned, so that they can provide evidence if they wish. If any formal additions or changes to the list of parties are warranted, the arbitrators working on the draft decision will presumably follow up; the key point being that no party be mentioned in a decision or subject to criticism or sanction without fair notice and an opportunity to be heard. Please note that any editor with useful input is invited to make a statement at the accept-or-decline stage, so the suggestion that an editor's having urged us to decline the case warrants his addition as a party is unwarranted. I would also note that while the convention has developed of leaving parties' statements on the case page and moving non-parties' statements to the talkpage, this does not have substantive significance, and where the clerks wind up leaving someone's statement does not govern who the parties are. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

• Proposed. A number of involved editors commented extensively on the Request page, showing strong support for banning they had previously advocated, and for the rejection of this case as frivolous. I have not presented evidence of this beyond their own display on the Request page, however, that should be sufficient to establish a risk to them of admonishment or sanction, and therefore of their right to notice and special participation as parties. The above editors were added to the list of parties by me, before the acceptance of the Request, and were notified, but Mathsci edit warred to remove his name, and William M. Connolley reverted Hipocrite's insertion, then edit warred at User talk:Hipocrite over the notice, which seems to have been a last-straw incident leading to the retirement of Rootology. These parties Hipocrite should be added and their comments restored to the Request page, and notice to Hipocrite should be restored as well.
• Hipocrite did not comment on the Request page, having "retired," but previously retired under a cloud, returned, was extraordinarily disruptive while active, and was the primary cause of the two recent protections of Cold fusion and thus of the actions of WMC leading to this case, aside from whatever prior agenda WMC may have had. --Abd (talk) 13:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
• Having now realized that it's reasonable to consider the case accepted when there were four net votes, instead of when acceptance was declared and the case pages set up, and for simplicity, I have withdrawn the proposed motion to add Mathsci, and I ask that Verbal and Stephan Schulz's comments be removed from the Request page, unless they desire to be parties, and I apologize to the committee and the community for disruption that resulted. (It would have been quite enough if someone had suggested to me: once there were four net votes, the case was to be considered accepted and no changes made -- and this should be made clear in general.
• To Bilby. Hipocrite was centrally involved in the events leading up to the ban, as evidence will show, and I do not believe that a voluntary, reversible, very recent retirement should be suffice to exclude oneself from consideration. It was an error for me not to include Hipocrite from the start. --Abd (talk) 19:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
• To Mathsci. The other names were removed by Ryan yesterday, but the clerk overlooked the moving of non-party arguments to Talk. Evidence will show that Hipocrite created the disruption allowing WMC's intervention at Cold fusion, pursuing an agenda that WMC favors. Hipocrite accepted the ban because banning me was his goal, and the dual bans gave WMC cover. --Abd (talk) 13:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• To Newyorkbrad. I agree that the list of named parties may be moot, because of notice provided already. No claim was made that, simply by urging denial of the case, editors should be added to it; the additional editors named by me were, in fact, involved in the underlying events; other editors urged denial and were not added. Two issues remain that are not moot.

• Hipocrite's notice was removed by a party to this case, so if Hipocrite reviews his Talk page, he may not see the notice. The notice should be replaced pending resolution of this case.
• As to the comments left in place, leaving non-party comments prejudices the record; there are good reasons for the practice of removal, and it was only an accident that they were not. All other statements were removed, and the two in question only remain because, at that point, they were listed as named parties. --Abd (talk) 15:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• I'm quite opposed to expanding the list of involved parties at this point. Hipocrite, being retired, is unable to be involved in proceedings, and therefore cannot present his case. I agree that he was involved in the events, but I'd be very uncomfortable with including someone in his situation, and in my view that involvement was not central to what is being discussed here. In regard to MathSci, he has strong opinions about Abd, as expressed, but the case is in regard to Abd and WMC's actions. It's likely to be messy enough as it is - it would be far better to keep to focus as narrow as possible. - Bilby (talk) 15:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
• I suggest that Abd email ArbCom directly requesting the removal by the clerks of the other names which he added to the list. If Hipocrite has retired and nobody has so far mentioned problems with his behaviour that need to be examined, why add his name? Please drop the motion entirely to keep things simple. Mathsci (talk) 02:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• I'm opposed to the adding of MathSci as unnecessary expanding the scope, and the focus should remain on WMC admin actions and Abd's general behaviour - the central concerns. Hipocrite I'm less concerned about, he was heavily involved, but as he's disabled email and retired after an argument with Jimbo it would seem a bit pointless now - and since Abd didn't include him originally, error or not the case wasn't taken with H as a party. Also, he accepted WMCs actions and wasn't then involved with Abd's behaviour. Like Bilby, I think these two editors are not central to the issues presented by Abd or raised in the comments. I'd also ask Abd to tone down his rhetoric a bit (eg "Evidence will show that..."), thanks. I also don't see why my comment, or any others, should be removed - leaving a comment doesn't mean you become a party to the case. Verbal chat 14:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• I would support the addition of User:Hipocrite as he was a central player in all of these events. His behavior at Cold Fusion was disruptive and provocative. His actions directly led to the issue at hand, regardless of whether those actions were premeditated with a specific agenda or simply the result of poor judgment. The treatment of User:Hipocrite in comparison to the treatment of User:Abd by User:William M. Connolley should be examined to shed light on User:William M. Connolley's state of mind regarding User:Abd and his level of objectivity in this case. An examination of whether or not User:William M. Connolley acted in support of User:Hipocrite in some way, whether wittingly or unwittingly, also seems relevant to this case. --GoRight (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

  RE: "I don't think this should distract everyone from the issues of behaviors of these two editors interactions with each other." - The scope of the case is, as I understand it, whether WMC's use of his administrative privileges was appropriate, or not, as well as Abd's editing that led up to the ban in question. Since the ban WMC issued covered BOTH Abd and Hipocrite it seems appropriate to examine his application of the ban on all parties involved, not just one, as this may reveal an underlying bias.

• I really don't think others should be added to this case. The scope of this case from what I'm being told is Abd's editing behavior and whether WMC was involved or not. As for the comment "The treatment of User:Hipocrite in comparison to the treatment of User:Abd by User:William M. Connolley should be examined to shed light on User:William M. Connolley's state of mind regarding User:Abd and his level of objectivity in this case. An examination of whether or not User:William M. Connolley acted in support of User:Hipocrite in some way, whether wittingly or unwittingly, also seems relevant to this case." I don't think this should distract everyone from the issues of behaviors of these two editors interactions with each other. --CrohnieGal 15:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Expand the scope of the case to cover Abd's behaviour over the last two years

2) Apart from the ban itself and the issues surrounding it, this case should also cover Abd's overall approach to dispute resolution, including how Abd's conduct has evolved in the last two years, to understand why he is returning to Arbcom as a party in another dispute with another admin in the same article, just three months after the Abd and JzG case, and why one month ago WMC's page ban was so resoundingly endorsed by the community, to the point of WP:SNOW. The last case already advised and urged Abd to take heed to good-faith advice, but Abd has decided that Arbcom had backed all of his views and that it only decided to give him "some good advice", see here.

The evidence here shows a pattern of repeated complaints about meatpuppeting, too long comments, bad faith assumptions, confrontational editing, etc, issued by many unrelated editors from many different POVs over many months about many topics, ranging from harsh criticism to terse expositions of problems, and it's worrying that, when faced with very recent examples of the criticized behaviour, Abd saw no problem in his editing here. I also stated here that I have only scratched the surface of all the complaints and advice given to him over years.

This case should decide if Abd has been taking heed of all that advice, if he is willing to start doing so now, if Abd even acknowledges that he has a problem with his editing (as in "the first step is admitting that you have a problem"), if Abd is going to keep thinking that there is really a cabal, if Abd will keep thinking that anyone opposing him is either part of the cabal or misguided or wrong, and if a full ban or an extremely strict edit restriction is going to be the only way to stop him to stop that part of his behaviour which is highly disruptive.

If the case closes without addressing this, then I predict that Abd will be swiftly community banned in ANI in a short time, in a drama-filled thread which will leave a bad impression in many editors who have been helped by Abd and who won't understand all the complicated issues surrounding the situation. I also predict that Abd will claim that him not being banned means that Arbcom thinks that he is right, which will only confuse more those editors that trust Abd.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Past tomorrow I will start expanding the warnings list with more diffs so arbs can weigh just how many editors have given Abd advice on what to change and why, and to show that the advice given to him by the end of 2007 is the same that has been given to him very recently, and the same that has been given to him regularly over almost two years. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Notice that I don't want to cover the events that caused the warnings, I want to cover how not taking heed to all those warnings has brought Abd to the current situation of being banned from an article that he wants to edit, and brought him twice in front of Arbcom in three months. I note that Abd is now directly stating that the advice given to him by me is incorrect, I think that it's up for the arbs to look at the warnings by other editors I collected and decide if they fit my own advice and if they address correctly Abd's conduct in the cold fusion article.

About being unfair to Abd, notice that WMC's administrative actions have been already brought to the community and been widely endorsed by it, while Abd's conduct has been widely criticized by the community over a long time and not just in the cold fusion article, so it's perfectly appropiate to ask that we examine Abd's behaviour in more depth, even if causes complaints of unfairness. Also, Arbcom is supposed to solve the problems that the community can't solve, the community has not found a problem with WMC's administrative conduct, but it has found a problem with Abd's editing. (Arbcom is supposed to have teeth, you see, it's the last recourse on WP:DR, and it shouldn't have to avoid addressing clear problems for fear of looking unfair, arbs should have clear by now that any outcome negative towards Abd is going to be claimed to be unfair anyways, regardless of what they actually do)

Tomorrow I was going to start gathering more evidence, so, I'll be in a better position to show if this motion is warranted or not. If arbs raise issues about the motion, I'll see if I can address them with a better-worded motion, with better evidence, or if I should abandon this motion. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Enric is seeking to drastically expand this case to cover every possible error -- or courageous action -- I might have taken over the last two years. Remember, the "advice" offered me, so many times, has been quite incorrect. Subsequently, my positions have often been confirmed, either by ArbComm or by editorial consensus. JzG did act while involved. His blacklistings were improper. The blacklist was being used to control content. The link to lenr-canr.org at Martin Fleischmann was accepted. Except for one withdrawn page (which may be resubmitted, I have new evidence on it), and in spite of strong efforts from a number of editors whose comments appear in this case, every page from lenr-canr.org that I submitted for whitelisting was accepted. Newenergytimes.com was delisted. The "proposed explanations" for cold fusion -- there are many, and a few of the theories are covered in multiple reliable secondary sources, some of them peer-reviewed, such as Naturwissenschaften -- were being accepted into the article. That's what Hipocrite edit warred against and that's what WMC removed with his revert to the May 14 version. From our present article, you would not know that these theories exist. That's the "quiet" that is so pleasing to some. Enric has raised many old issues, such as statements by a few editors at RFA/Abd 2, solicited by Yellowbeard, blocked for canvassing and now indef blocked, who sought out prior disputants and invited them to comment. Enric previously promised, if the case was rejected, to immediately take the matter to AN to push for a continued ban, even without any edits justifying that. For him, this dispute has become highly personal. Without his prior move to AN/I over the ban, it's entirely possible that this entire flap would have been quieted. If we assume that I'd edited the Talk page -- I had no intention at all of editing the article -- WMC would have blocked me, I'd have submitted an unblock template, and we'd have had a decision by an uninvolved admin, and that might have been that. Instead, we have this mess. It's not only WMC's stubbornness (and/or mine), it's Enric's passion for banning me, yet he never followed dispute resolution for any of it, beyond warning me, his version of DR; likewise he does not understand that the noticeboards are not part of DR, either. He should be reminded. --Abd (talk) 04:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I think this would be a little impracticable. However, while Abd continues in his evidence to assert there are those out to get him or that there is a cabal, his longer term interactions with the users that he claims are in dispute with him should be taken into account. As Brecht wrote: Denn wie man sich bettet, so liegt man. Mathsci (talk) 05:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to oppose this: if the scope is widened in regard to all of Abd's actions, then I'm concerned that it is also reasonable to ask that the scope should be widened to cover all of WMC's actions. And even if it was not expanded to include WMC, I'm in agreement with Mathsci that increasing the scope would make the discussion impractical. That said, I would assume that Abd's editing practices in regard to Cold fusion are within scope (in so far as they show cause for an article ban), as are those interactions mentioned by Mathsci, and that any findings in regard to these topics could serve in a potential future RFC/U or community ban discussion. - Bilby (talk) 05:24, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Expanding the scope to cover the editing and behavior of just one of the named parties would be grossly unfair. If the scope is to be expanded to cover a multi-year span of behavior let it be for all the named parties, including Enric. Enric has been on a crusade against Abd and trying to get him banned for quite some time (diffs to be provided upon request) and this motion is simply one more example of that behavior.

Enric fails to WP:AGF on a regular basis, and not simply against Abd. Recently Enric also tried to make a case for having me banned by falsely accusing me of being a sock puppet. Enric has also rabidly vehemently pursued a ban on Jed Rothwell despite that fact that he is currently indefinitely blocked and unable to (legitimately) edit anywhere on the project. His constant droning on about these bannings is disruptive here, on the administrative notice boards, and basically anywhere he edits. I believe that the extent of this WP:HARASSment and the WP:ABF evidence behind it would be an appropriate topic for ArbCom to review. I would issue a motion to this effect, but unlike Enric I am not looking to have those with whom I disagree banned or barred from participating on the project.

Another prime example is the ANI thread that is being discussed here as part of WMC's ban where it purportedly WP:SNOWed against Abd. The only trouble was that the snow was yellow and it was coming from editors like Enric who initiated that discussion despite the fact that at the time Abd had not violated the ban WMC imposed. There was, in essence, nothing to actually talk about in terms of substance or policy violations, it was all drama and it was all started by Enric. And it was all bolstered by involved editors. Such activities are clearly disruptive and waste valuable editor time.

Abd had asked that the ANI thread in question be closed to AVOID disruption. Enric created it. I also suspect that the WP:SNOW seen there was more a function of the ban in question being a strictly limited one of one month and on a specific page. A full community ban would be quite different, I suspect, despite Enric's fantasies to the contrary. --GoRight (talk) 06:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Please refactor the word "rabidly": remember WP:NPA. Enric Naval has patiently engaged in discussion with Abd longer than most users. He does not show signs of "acute pain, violent movements, uncontrolled excitement, depression and inability to swallow water". Nor does he appear to be experiencing "periods of mania and lethargy, followed by coma". Please try to avoid using this kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Mathsci (talk) 07:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I chose my words carefully. See rabidly, specifically definition 1b which was the meaning I had intended. That definition is not inflammatory, it is an accurate description of his behavior. One need look no further than this RFAR to see that. Never the less, per your request I have refactored the word accordingly.

"... rather than contribute to the mediation process ..." - You appear to be, let's say, factually challenged. Abd has embraced the Cold Fusion mediation since it first began. Just go look at the discussion there. --GoRight (talk) 08:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• Mediation cases are privileged as much as anything is on wikipedia and are not supposed to be used in Arbitration. can I suggest you both redact any reference to mediation from your comments? Cheers Spartaz 08:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Done. Mathsci (talk) 09:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• Not sure this kind of motion is needed or necessary. Past actions can be used to illustrate/clarify current ongoing problems. Previous postings can also be used to indicate current patterns of behavior (e.g. offers of meatpuppetry -deleted by Black Kite in '08) which are undesirable and against policies. R. Baley (talk) 16:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

R. Baley, if that link refers to something I wrote, which it appears to, I'd appreciate a copy, if the file wasn't offensive or a policy violation, or how about undeleting it so that anyone can read it? I have nothing to hide. (And if I do, I'd want to know!) --Abd (talk) 01:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I decline. Request forwarded (diff) to the deleting administrator, Black Kite (section link). R. Baley (talk) 02:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I also decline to undelete it, but if I quote the opening section of it - "This is a page for users to leave articles, essay suggestions, or comments for my review. This may be used, as an example, by users on article or civility parole ... Leaving material here gives me permission to use the material elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, with me taking responsibility for it as my own edit..." the reason for it being deleted is probably fairly clear. Black Kite 08:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Two more weeks to gather evidence

3) I ask arbs to give me and Abd two more weeks to gather evidence before they start making proposals in the workshop (until Monday 3rd August). There are megabytes of conversation related to this case, just reading it takes me a lot of time, and I have only gone throught a fraction of it. I have problems backing up my statements in the workshop because there are so many problems that I haven't sorted through yet. Also, I want to address in my evidence whether WMC's prior blocks have been found problematic by the community, and I want to make clearer wich evidence covers the time frame of the ban, and which evidence is about the current problems with the current ban being just a continuation and/or a logical consequence of long-term problems that remained unacknowledged by Abd over a long time. Arbs will also be able to see better if the evidence supports or not a expansion of the scope.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Notice that, for example, today I'll be busy so I won't be able to gather evidence (and, indeed, I shouldn't be editing wikipedia right now!). --Enric Naval (talk) 08:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Support. I could use the time as well, in fact, I'm a bit worried about even a week more, it might not be enough. I do have kids, a business to run, and a Meetup in New York this weekend that I've promised to join. Note that this support is not support of expansion of the scope of the case. I'm aware, at the present, that my evidence may look like I'm expanding the scope, but I'm not. The situations mentioned there will be placed in context and the many editors mentioned are not targets, specific wrong-doing is not being alleged. (If it were, I would have notified them, and some of those names were only mentioned at this point so that I could make blanket statements of completeness, i.e., this list of editors was all editors who qualified as stated.) If there are behavior problems with the "cabal," they would be raised as enforcement requests for Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science, not here. The most that is being shown is a kind of broad involvement that should be a matter of concern, but not necessarily of sanction, except where that prior involvement led these editors to become specifically involved in this much narrower case, as can be seen in those showing behavioral problems in this very request, with warning after warning being issued by clerks. --Abd (talk) 15:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I changed it to two weeks, since I was also wary that one week would not be enough and I would have to ask for another adjourning. I also changed "me" to "me and Abd". --Enric Naval (talk) 16:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Two weeks okay by me. There are some wedge issues here, and taking the time to do it right could be quite useful. Besides, I've got some actual article work to do that I should get done before I'm site-banned, as some have been predicting. I suppose I could email some of my meat puppets cooperating editors should I not get it done in time. It's just finishing stuff that I began, stuff that was controversial for a short time, but then consensus was found. Some here -- except for Enric once in a while -- aren't likely to mention that. Maybe I'll ask Enric to "proxy" for me. Hey, Enric, if I email you some good edits that you could easily verify, not controversial, would you make them for me? Or would you think that a violation of WP:MEAT? --Abd (talk) 01:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't much care. I've said everything I need to for the moment. The train-wreck remains entertaining; but drawn out for another two weeks it will probably become dull. Abd is busy shooting himself in the foot; given more time he may manage to do so slightly less messily, which would be good. The downside is that I'll probably be tempted into more self-defeating sarcasm, but its a fine balance William M. Connolley (talk) 21:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I personally would like to see what Enric gathers to get a feel of it all. So far I have found the evidence and the difs very enlightening and would find that the more difs should be an advantage to everyone prior to deciding anything here. The idea of this case is to stop the disruptions so lets give anyone a chance to show what they feel a need to show. If it goes off target it can always be reverted and the situation can be stopped by an arbitrator. Thoughts of others? --CrohnieGal 11:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• A period of five days might be reasonable, but really this is up to ArbCom and the clerks, not us. Mathsci (talk) 17:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Let Enric have all the time he needs. I admit that I would likely make use of it myself. Scope to remain unchanged by my !vote. --GoRight (talk) 21:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Taiwan cannot make enough hard drives to store the amount of low-content text this case will produce in two weeks. The Great Misplaced Pages Dramaout goes to July 23rd. It makes sense to give participating editors a chance to chime in on the evidence page. But 24 hours are as likely to produce useful results as 24 weeks, in my opinion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

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Proposed principles

Consensus is fundamental to NPOV

1) The surest sign that neutral text has been found is that all reasonable editors, understanding guidelines and policy, will agree or accept it, regardless of personal POV. Where necessary, and without compromising our fundamental principles, we need take extraordinary care that this consensus is discovered, documented, and maintained, which includes supporting process for consensus to shift and grow non-disruptively.

Comment by Arbitrators:

The first sentence is basically right, although it is overly optimistic to anticipate that unanimous agreement among even "reasonable editors" can be reached in every case. It also is true that consensus can change over time, but beyond that, I don't understand the second sentence. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not persuaded that this is a useful principle, particularly the second part, which seems overly focused on the process of "discovering" consensus than it is in writing NPOV content. Risker (talk) 02:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Support. This cannot be overemphasized, it was part of the founding vision of Misplaced Pages. Where we actively pursue true consensus, not merely a rough consensus that excludes minority views, we settle disputes and broaden the community which has an interest in stability, instead of motivating and maintaining disruption. --Abd (talk) 14:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Newyorkbrad. Thanks. Unanimous agreement isn't necessary, but is desirable. In fact, consensus organizations which establish good process find that complete agreement is more attainable than expected, but my own conclusion from many years of experience is that majority rule is an important operating principle, necessary for efficiency, that becomes damaging when the strong desirability of full consensus is overlooked. When there is maximized consensus, long-term efficiency is maximized. It's established that consensus can change, but how is not well established. While we may assert some kind of abstract NPOV principle, we have no way of objectively measuring it except through the measure of consensus. If a consensus exists at one time, but is not documented, if the evidence and arguments for the consensus haven't been made explicit and accessible, there is no guidance for the future except an assumption that existing text is "consensus," and the boulder must roll inevitably down the hill, and we will have to push it up again, which is so much work that we often prefer to revert and block a dissident, instead of engaging and recruiting the new editor to help extend consensus by reviewing the basis for it and pointing out, if possible, any defects. --Abd (talk) 16:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad, IMO, Abd means in his second sentence that we should held terribly long discussions with dozens of editors involved, so we can then measure consensus using some unnecessarily complicated rule that Abd wants to try out in wikipedia. All of this, of course, with Abd being the one in charge of the whole process. This is what he tried to do with his last poll right before he was banned from CF. (see below) --Enric Naval (talk) 16:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

This preposterous assumption is an example of what I've faced for five months at Cold fusion, raw ABF. --Abd (talk) 17:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC) I couldn't control it if I wanted to, and I don't, not even if the community demanded it, and inefficient discussion would entirely defeat the purpose and would simply fail.

Enric Naval: That was hardly a productive comment. Please limit discussion on arbitration pages to constructive additions only. AGK 03:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is what Abd means with that sentence, altough he would have chosen a very different wording. --Enric Naval (talk) 05:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

AGK, you are right, my uncivil wording was really inadequate,and it wasn't productive. NewYorkBrad deserves a better explanation (and he doesn't know the context, so he probably doesn't even know what I am talking about). I striked it out and I will make a proper explanation in a couple of hours. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Rewording: Shortly before being banned, Abd was Hipocrite were making competing polls. Abd tried to make a poll based in Range voting, and tried to merge two polls in one. He was heavily criticized for moving votes around, modifying the poll at mid-polling, using too complicated rules, WP:OWNership issues, etc, and was told to stop touching the poll and even to drop it completely. His behaviour at the poll was part of what triggered his ban. Despite all this, he thinks that the poll was a success, and now he is here making proposals of measuring consensus without giving any acknowledgement or indication that he was ever heavily criticized for his methods. Editors who saw their suggestions and criticims ignored during and after that poll are now understandibly wary of him ever handling any measurement of consensus, since they assume that Abd will not listen to them. (Whether that assumption is warranted is something that deserves a separate discussion, the point here is that Abd has lost the trust of many editors in measurement of consensus) His second sentence looks a lot like what he did in that poll.

Also, Risker points out the sentence is more focused in the process than in the final result. Abd has a long history of supporting new processes of discovering consensus, as he has always been interested in voting systems (yeah, I know, I have to prove this in the evidence section, I will link here when it's done) with his support of Misplaced Pages:Delegable proxy and his editing in relatively obscure voting systems like Instant-runoff voting or Approval voting, which he edited heavily before getting interested in cold fusion (Abd's edit count) (Abd used Range voting in the poll, and Approval voting is a type of range voting). This makes me fear that Abd is more interested in experimenting with measurement of democratic votes than in measuring WP:CONSENSUS consensus by wikipedia standards. There are more indications that make me think this, but it will be better if I put them into the Evidence page and link them here later. Also, part of a trend where process is put over results, so not an isolated incident that is being blown out of proportion. Posting in talk page. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Mathsci. This proposal is an expansion on and explanation of the five, not a substitute for them. I thank Mathsci for pointing to the essay and the MfD, which was, when MfD'd, indeed a rant, though in the process of conversion to one more neutral and less topical, with participation and comment from others invited. The MfD, Mathsci nominating, snowed Keep; some of the criticism at the time was justified and may have been addressed, but I'm not claiming it's ready for WP space. A move is not a decision I will make. --Abd (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to MastCell. Yes, that's a problem, but it doesn't relate to the desirability of consensus. If we exclude editors without adequate opportunity for them to participate, if they are met with hostility and threats and blocks, most will become, if they were not before, "unreasonable." They may create, as Scibaby did, as many as 300 sock puppets. We don't know if he would have been reasonable if welcomed and channeled toward constructive work on what I call the "backstory," with an opportunity to participate in expansion of consensus, and where intrinsic unreasonableness, if present, would have become obvious, and he'd then have been rejected, not only by those opposed to him in POV, but by the whole community, including supporters of his POV and those neutral. Once we understand that consensus only begins with "rough consensus," and that when we stop there, we may be institutionalizing disruption, we will confine stern response to necessity. It only takes two to discuss, not dozens, and discussion of changes can expand from there as needed. --Abd (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Reject Consensus is *not* fundamental to NPOV. Which is why WP:NPOV explicitly states The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. NPOV is, as it says, when articles are representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. It is a concept for describing the state of an article. By contrast, WP:CON is, as it says, one of a range of policies regarding how editors work with each other. It is a concept for describing how an article gets written. Sentence 2: it looks like Enric has penetrated Abd's smokescreen. "reasonable editors": as Mastcell William M. Connolley (talk) 18:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Not the way most WP articles are written and not helpful as a substitute for WP:Five pillars. No need to transfer extracts of the userspace essay User:Abd/Majority POV-pushing onto this page: it was already severely criticized in the MfD by multiple users. Mathsci (talk) 15:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• Although their purpose is unclear, Abd's second sentence in the proposal and his userspace essay might be an attempt to justify the pushing of a fringe viewpoint by slowly tiring out mainstream (= majority point of view) editors. Mathsci (talk) 18:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe that the problem here has been in parsing the definition of "reasonable editors". MastCell  17:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• Reject. This kind of wooly principle has become a staple of arbcom announcements, and this one, to quote from Macbeth, is "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". WP:NPOV and WP:CONSENSUS are already policies, and MathSci has already mentioned the WP:FIVEPILLARS. The community has already established policy, and that is not a job for anyone else. Unless there happens to be a philosopher king lying around. Verbal chat 18:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• Curious that Abd chooses to use the workshop for more grandstanding rather then supplying evidence for arbcom to look at. If I were cynical I'd suggest that this case has been cooked up to give them an opportunity to promote their own agenda rather then a genuine disagreement where dispute resolution is required. Spartaz 18:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC) - struck per instructions. Spartaz 21:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

  Spartaz, this page (and this section in particular) is for the discussion of the proposed principle, not for making unfounded speculation as to the motives of those involved. Please strike your comment and refrain from making further statements of this nature. Thank you. Hersfold 21:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC) (later edit: Thank you for your understanding.)

• Reject. Poorly written and to me, over analyzed. Let's stick with the way we already do consensus, not this new way that has been refused. --CrohnieGal 11:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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Proposals by User:Raul654

Proposed principles

Meatpuppetry

1) Restoring edits from banned users is meatpuppetry. Meatpuppetry is prohibited. Users who act as meatpuppets for banned users may be blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Two comments. First, the term "meatpuppetry" has a variety of meanings to different people, and using it can divert attention from the substance of the discussion to quarrels over definitions. It would be better if this were expressed directly in terms of the underlying conduct (e.g., "Restoring edits from banned users is prohibited"). If the conduct is prohibited, it is prohibited regardless of what label is put on it. Second, as reflected in the discussion below, we might be best served with a somewhat refined or more nuanced version of the proposal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Oppose. Restoring edits from banned users is not meat puppetry, per se. The use of the term "banned" here is also not necessary. Blocked users are in the same position. Edits from blocked or banned users may be reverted on sight. Raul has, below, quoted me accurately. There is no policy as claimed. It is acknowledged that acting as a meatpuppet for a blocked or banned user -- or any user, for that matter -- can result in a block. However, once an edit has been made, the edit is in the database and can be read by anyone unless oversighted. Whether or not to restore an edit should depend, not on the ban or block status of the original editor, but on its usefulness to the project. I'm insufficiently familiar with the Scibaby case to say much about it; I reverted a Scibaby edit back in without any reasonable notice that it was, in fact, Scibaby; however, the edit itself was to User talk:GoRight and my judgment was that he'd rather see the edit directly; the whole thing was rather silly, since GoRight can read it anyway; GoRight later decided to restore it to respond to it. The other alleged "meat puppetry" would be with User:JedRothwell, who is not banned, there has never been the required community ban discussion; if he's banned, it's an administrative ban, originally issued by JzG, in the presence of his involvement in long-term conflict with the editor; that account is blocked, but it was an inactive account, not used since 2006, blocked during a recent RfAr/Clarification for unclear reasons. JedRothwell, however, is a well-known expert in the field of Cold fusion, he knows the literature extremely well, having edited much of it. When he pops in as IP, he often has much to say of relevance to the article or what's going on. He's also blunt and caustic, but no more so than another COI editor we tolerate at the article: Kirk shanahan. With one restored edit from Rothwell, I recall removing the arguably uncivil part (usually it is on the level of a general claim of Misplaced Pages bias or general uselessness). It has never been found that a specific reversion to restore an edit by Rothwell was, itself, disruptive or improper; what's been claimed over and over is that such reversion is prohibited, but IAR recognizes no absolute prohibitions, and, as noted, there is no policy prohibiting such, unless ArbComm decides to establish one. The existing policy allows restoration of content if the editor restoring is willing to take responsibility for it, and "content" is a general term that does not solely refer to articles.

Those who claim that I inappropriately restored edits, please provide specific examples where the content violated policy. --Abd (talk) 06:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Jed was banned exclusively for his comments in Talk:Cold fusion (since it was the only page he posted to) and you restored his comments, taking full responsability for them. In other works, per our banning policy, we should have had to ban you too if you hadn't stopped. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, banning from a small number of incidents, and with no showing that the specific restorations were disruptive, would be a tad overreactive, I'd think. Enric's interpretation would be correct under the proposed principle, however, which is why it's so offensive. Restoring edits from blocked or banned editors, which takes place quite in the open and with obvious personal responsibility, is not "meat puppetry," per se, nor is it "proxying"; to establish these would require verification of improper intent. It is an editor making a decision that content (for articles or for discussion) is useful, and that's why I requested -- so far no satisfaction of this request -- that specific examples be provided. Enric has always argued, since the beginning of this dispute, that restoration was per se contrary to policy, and that's a serious misunderstanding, and an obvious one. I restored a spelling correction to Cold fusion made by ScienceApologist, that had been reverted because of his topic ban, and under the proposed principle, that would be "meat puppetry." This was, in fact, taken to AE, where the complainant, Hipocrite!, was pretty roundly criticized for disruption. I'm amazed that Enric or others would edit war with me over some harmless content on a Talk page, but I did not revert war back, nor did I pursue DR; quite simply, it wasn't important enough. Nor did any editor pursue DR with me. Now that there is a nice coat-rack erected, all this is being brought up, even though it was totally irrelevant to the page bans issued by WMC, as far as I've seen. What does Raul's proposal have to do with this case? --Abd (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Given Abd's behavior with respect to Jed Rothwell and Scibaby, and his own misconceptions about what our policies are (To wit: There is no policy against restoring reverted edits of banned or blocked users if the edits themselves are not disruptive or policy violations - Abd, July 14, 2009), a clear principle to this effect is needed. Raul654 (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that that particular statement is misinformed; edits by banned users are to be reverted on sight, regardless of merit. There's a (rarely used) CSD criterion for specifically this purpose, WP:G5. However, once reverted, if the edit does have merit and an editor can independently verify its worth and has independent reasons for making it themselves, they can do so to put it in under their own name. Granted, though, that's a little complicated and can elicit suspicion itself. Hersfold 01:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hersfold here. I think Raul's interpretation is not at all what the policy states, per WP:BAN: "Wikipedians are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned user, an activity sometimes called 'proxying,' unless they are able to confirm that the changes are verifiable and have independent reasons for making them." (emphasis mine). There is no rule prohibiting Abd or anyone else from restoring a Scibaby edit provided they have verified the legitimacy of it, and realizing that by doing so they take full responsibility for the edit. Oren0 (talk) 05:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"Verifiable" means restoring edits to articles which improve the article, and can be verified against reliable sources. Given that Abd was restoring, among other things, talk page edits by banned users, he fails that exception on both counts -- his edits were neither verifiable nor did he think of them independently. Raul654 (talk) 06:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, yeah. I can't think of any reason you'd need to restore a talk page edit; that is proxying. Hersfold 06:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps then "Unless they can be independently verified and there is a good, editorial-based reason for doing so, restoring edits..." ? Hersfold 06:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Question, what is the definition of "restore" being applied here? A simple revert? Adding a comment that contains the same or similar content? What is the time duration required to have elapsed before the topic mentioned by a banned user is once again safe to discuss? These are all applicable questions given the manner in which this principle is likely to be applied. --GoRight (talk) 07:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• Reject: "Restoring edits from banned users is meatpuppetry." - This is a ridiculous statement. This would allow Raul to block anyone expressing even a vaguely skeptical statement related to AGW. Once they had done so he could easily twist it into resembling something Scibaby said some place. While policy allows the edits of banned users to be reverted on sight, and for good reason, it does not forever ban any mention of a topic of the same or a similar nature. This proposal is merely a transparent attempt to ban minority points of view. Meat puppetry is inherently acting at the direction of another user, not simply the act of restoring material that may have value to the project. Current policy clearly states that users are permitted to restore edits of banned users so long as they are willing to take full responsibility for the content. --GoRight (talk) 07:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

If a banned user makes a spelling correction and their edit is reverted, must we now leave the word misspelled lest we be blocked for meat puppetry? This could easily happen with a RollBack could it not? --GoRight (talk) 07:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support. proxying for banned users is simply unacceptable. Spartaz 07:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with this statement depending on the definition of "proxying." Does proxying require that the user be acting at the direction of the banned user, or not? How do we distinguish between "proxying" and WP:AGF adoption of a valid point that happens to have started with a banned user? --GoRight (talk) 07:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It depends how consistently the user is doing it. Reverting and restoring a minor edit is within policy. Advocating on talk pages on behalf of fringe views put forward by banned users is clearly not acceptable. Starting a crusade to advance the agenda of the banned user is even worse. Where you fall on that continuum is why we expect admins to exercise discretion and common sense Spartaz 16:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

You did not address the fundamental point of my question. To be a meat puppet do you need to be acting at the direction of the banned user, or not? Is merely expressing a similar POV sufficient to label someone a meat puppet? --GoRight (talk) 17:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the correct answer is somewhere in the middle between the two poles you cite but that is undoubtedly something the arbcom will look at. I know where I stand and I can guess where you stand but I can't see the point arguing the point because ultimately it doesnt matter two hoots what we think as were aren't arbiters. Spartaz 17:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Banned/blocked means you don't edit, period. The spelling errors and other minor things will be noticed by someone editing the article. --CrohnieGal 19:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• Question for Raul: I thought that the scope of this proceeding was limited to a review of the actions of the involved parties as they relate specifically to User:William M. Connolley's page ban of User:Abd. Am I wrong on this point? Has the scope been increased?

Assuming I am correct for the moment, what is the relevance of your proposed principle to the case being discussed? Did User:William M. Connolley allege meat puppetry as part of his reason for issuing the ban in question? I don't recall seeing any such allegation but I could have missed it. If so, please point it out. On the other hand, has User:Abd accused User:William M. Connolley of being a meat puppet of someone else in this matter? I don't recall seeing such an allegation on his part either. --GoRight (talk) 21:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

See Carcharoth's comment in accepting the case. I'd say it's safe to say that the arbs may look at things a bit more broadly. Guettarda (talk) 05:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Rather obvious, perhaps in a slightly rewritten form. Neither Abd nor GoRight seem to understand wikipedia policy. Mathsci (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support. This is not controversial -it's basic. Though occasionally one may take responsibility for the rare and helpful mainspace edit, it should never appear as if you are seeking out a banned editor's edits to restore (could be construed as disruptive). "Comments" by banned users (almost any non-mainspace edit) should never be made at their direction or restored. R. Baley (talk) 14:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

  What degree of similarity in comments would you require to label someone as a meat puppet? How would you prevent this from being used to extend the bans of some individuals to others who are not otherwise banned but hold similar points of view? --GoRight (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikilawyering

2) Wikilawyering to certain quasi-legal practices, including... Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions. - Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering

Comment by Arbitrators:

Just as with "Meatpuppetry" above, "Wikilawyering" means many things to many people. It might again be best to avoid the use of this type of term and just focus on the specific types of conduct that are being prohibited or discouraged. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Not hard to see why this is needed here. Raul654 (talk) 16:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree, this practice needs to be stopped as it always causes disruptions. --CrohnieGal 11:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Support, see Abd's response in the meatpuppetry section above -to my recollection, this is pervasive throughout his editing history. R. Baley (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

Abd has engaged in meatpuppetry

1) Abd has engaged in meatpuppetry on behalf of banned users Jed Rothwell and Scibaby .

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Preposterous. It's not even on the map with Scibaby, but Raul hasn't presented actual evidence with any clarity. That's typical for Raul. He's a checkuser and oversighter, after all, why would he need to bother with real evidence? He's too busy whacking the moles in the game he helped to create. As to JedRothwell, again, where is the evidence? JedRothwell has expertise in the field of Cold fusion and makes occasional comments that are worth considering. (He's not banned, but so what? There is a block against an old account of his, issued three years after he last used it, based on ... what? He may be considered a blocked editor, but it's all quite shaky. I've never argued that editors could not revert his edits on sight, I've only claimed that restoring them may sometimes be appropriate.) I will, in my evidence, I expect, cover the edits involved, but allegations of meat puppetry were not part of any discussion connected with WMC's ban, as far as I'm aware. (Enric Naval has long made this charge, over and over, and he might have mentioned it before AN/I where it would have, again, been quite peripheral. However, it has never been shown or decided by consensus that my rare restorations of content from blocked or banned editors was improper. I've never been warned over it, as far as I recall, by any neutral editor, nor have I been blocked for it, and, from Raul's history with other editors, it's quite clear that if he believed he could make the Scibaby charge stick, he'd have blocked me.) --Abd (talk) 17:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

"I've never been warned over it, as far as I recall, by any neutral editor" <-------------- but you have been warned multiple times by editors that you don't consider neutral, right? And what did you do about their warnings, may I ask? --Enric Naval (talk) 17:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I considered them and either accepted them or rejected them or compromised. I usually explain my position quite thoroughly, that's one of the complaints against me, actually. Only when an editor repeats the same spurious charges, over and over, do I start deleting them without comment or asking the editor to refrain from posting to my Talk. What, pray tell, am I supposed to do? I consider the positions on meat puppetry expressed here to be preposterous, and, while it's certainly not a common action for me, I've reverted in enough edits from blocked or banned editors without consequence, most frequently with no comment at all, and if the reality were as is being claimed (it is wikilawyering to claim that reverting a banned editor's content back in is a violation of policy based on a literalist interpretation of "ban," and a misinterpretation of "may be reverted" to morph it into "must be excluded"), and given that I've been closely tracked since WP:PRX days, I'd have been blocked. Instead, there never has been a community discussion that involved me and confirmed this position. I claim that if the project is improved, any editorial action like that is allowed, and unless an action is clearly against policy, AGF and IAR establish a presumption that what is not prohibited is allowed, and an editor may follow their own lights on this, until consensus against it becomes clear or there is collision with the rights of other editors. With policies, that means broad consensus, not just a local handful of editors screaming for blood because they are attached to a particular outcome. Or it means an ArbComm decision. Can anyone point to a relevant discussion or decision, if the policy is as alleged?

Once again, this proposed finding is not based on specific evidence provided, as far as I've seen, just general claims and charges. Verdict first, trial later. The alleged Scibaby meat puppetry only happened once, period, so I can assume the incident! It's this sequence: Original edit by alleged Scibaby sock], revert without comment by Raul654, my restoration with explanation, an explanation I've seen many times when I was so bold as to remove vandalism from an editor's talk page, and this wasn't vandalism. By the way, I've claimed in some places that I wasn't aware that this was a Scibaby sock. From my edit, I now see, this was obviously not true. Now that I see the discrepancy, I think I know what may have happened. My original simple revert was lost in a profusion of windows, and there may have been an access problem, Misplaced Pages was giving me error messages frequently, or I just closed the edit window accidentally. Later, when I realized that the edit hadn't been saved, I'd already looked around more, I knew more, and I redid the edit, and added the note about Scibaby. But I'm not sure. R.Baley -- recognize the name? -- reverted me. And I then commented, and more discussion ensued. GoRight eventually arrived and confirmed my impression that he'd want to respond to the edit. Now, tell me, was GoRight "meat puppeting" for Scibaby by restoring that edit? If so, and if this was done in the full view of a series of administrators who watch that page, and who had been claiming he'd be blocked for "proxying" for Scibaby, why wasn't he blocked or even warned? Discussion continued and Raul eventually made this enlightening comment. Raul watches GoRight talk and looks for edits that he suspects might be Scibaby, then checkusers the editor. Cool, eh? Wouldn't you like a tool like that? To use whenever you like? To check IP for a user who has a POV that is banned? Oops! We don't ban POVs, do we? I mean a user who has a POV like that of a banned user. If someone has been banned for what Raul thinks is your POV, checkuser restrictions, where disruptive editing is required before checkuser may be performed, apparently mean nothing. --Abd (talk) 02:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Follows from above. Raul654 (talk) 16:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Support. Spartaz 16:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

He is proud of it. Mathsci (talk) 22:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Reject. Abd cannot be a meat puppet of Jed Rothwell because Jed Rothwell is not banned. Abd cannot be a meat puppet of "banned user" Jed Rothwell because Jed Rothwell is not banned. No direct community discussion of banning of Rothwell has ever been held, nor has a clear community consensus in support of a ban ever been demonstrated. Reverting the comment on my talk page was a courtesy to me, not a demonstration of support for Scibaby. --GoRight (talk) 23:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It's possible to be a meat puppet for anyone; if you edit on their behalf, it qualifies. If person X asked me to !vote on an AfD a certain way, and did so without question or independent review, I'd be their meatpuppet. I'm not saying this has been done, necessarily, just that your statement above is inaccurate. Hersfold 23:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In general you are correct. I have clarified my meaning above. You do point to a key point, that such editing had to be at the direction of ther other user (i.e. "If person X asked me to ...") in order to be a meat puppet of that user, correct? Where is the evidence that Abd acted at the direction of either Jed Rothwell or Scibaby?

Support. I think a couple of editors should read WP:MEAT again if they haven't already the User:Hersfold explains the problem pretty well. Also, an editor can be banned by an administrator and continue to be banned as long as there is no one available to unban. Please stop saying the editor isn't banned when he obviously is. For disclosure, I do not know the editor Jed Rothwell.--CrohnieGal 11:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

"Also, an editor can be banned indefinitely blocked by an administrator and continue to be banned as long as there is no one available to unban unblock, that block may be considered to be a ban." - That is a more accurate description of what WP:Banning policy actually states. So the question becomes, how do you know that there is no administrator available to unblock Jed Rothwell? Without such a determination Rothwell is more accurately described as indefinitely blocked than banned. --GoRight (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well until an adminstrator comes along and unblocks them they are banned, we don't need to poll all 1800 or however many there are these days. And to answer your earlier is obvious Abd was meatpuppeting because they knowingly restored the edits of a banned user. Spartaz 06:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

"Well until an administrator comes along and unblocks them they are banned indefinitely blocked." - Sorry but this statement disagrees with WP:Banning policy as it is currently written. The indefinite block only becomes a ban after we know, for a fact, that there IS no administrator willing to unblock. The policy is currently mute on what process is to be used to actually determine that no administrator is willing to unblock. If you find that situation unacceptable, well help find a consensus on how to address it in the policy. --GoRight (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but this statement disagrees with WP:Banning policy as it is currently written - Gee, I wonder why that is? Raul654 (talk) 05:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Enric Above "And what did you do about their warnings, may I ask?" - What would you have him do, Enric, simply give up and let the majority POV pushers have their way even though his actions do not violate any policy? Do you not think that there is any benefit from requiring such warnings to come for neutral parties? Given your apparent alignment with the individuals in question I guess I can understand why you might take this position. --GoRight (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Abd's wikilawyering

2) Abd frequently proffers his own interpretations of policy which are at odds with what policy actually says. He uses these false claims about policy to justify his own inappropriate behavior. This is wikilawyering.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Very accurate. In my evidence you can find the comments of many editors telling him over many months that he doesn't understand or misunderstands policy, but at this point in time he still thinks that he has the correct interpretation. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Opposed. Let me translate Raul's proposal. "what policy actually says" is not what policy actually says, it's what Raul believes it means. This proposal is internally contradictory, not uncommon with Raul's bullying bulls or fatwas. "Wikilawyering" doesn't refer to attempts to state the substance or meaning of policy, but to relying upon the actual wording of the policy in contrast to the substance. Thus, if I were "wikilawyering," I would not be stating what is at odds with what the policy "actually says," I would be doing the opposite: I'd be doing what he asserts in the second part: making a false claim about the real policy, i.e., the "intent of the law," based on accidental meanings of the text, in order to justify my own behavior (or that of others.) Occasionally, I consider that the wording of a policy does not reflect the intention. Further, I may sometimes err in my understanding of actual practice; after all, I've only been seriously editing this project for less than two effing years. I'm quick, but not that quick. But I do understand the basic principles on which this project was founded, why it worked to the extent it has, and why it has fallen short of the original ideals, in some respects, and I do express this native and instinctive understanding, which, to those who are rule-bound, can be puzzling. And to those who want everyone else to follow rules, with IAR applying only to them, infuriating. Underneath this case is a phenomenon I will need to address, as will ArbComm. My very presence can sometimes be disruptive, this did not begin here. However, I will say this: I've been ejected before for "disruption," where those with the power made that decision, and the results have not been good for the organizations, not necessarily because I was crucial, though sometimes I was, but because a society which rejects "gadflies," or those who mention the nudity of the emperor, has become rigid and unable to adapt to changing circumstances. For good social reasons, though, mentioning the nudity of the emperor needs to be properly confined and contained. It is not a simple problem.

I will note one fact: it seems that whenever Jimbo makes a bold decision, the community descends into an uproar. His activity is disruptive. For better or for worse? My position is that we need this kind of disruption, but we should take measures to contain it, and what it will require is nondisruptive means of rapid and efficient development of deep consensus, and this is something that is vigorously opposed by those who might lose some power were it to happen, or, at least, that is what they fear. --Abd (talk) 17:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

An extremely common Abd behavior. Raul654 (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems accurate. Mathsci (talk) 22:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Reject. Abd's statements regarding policy are always backed by the clear text and spirit of the policy in question. --GoRight (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely, almost a textbook case. Spartaz 08:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree Sadly I have to agree to this. I have been talking a lot to editors about this case, including Abd, and I find a lot of wikilawyering going on to justify things. --CrohnieGal 12:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Endorse. Also note the salient point from Abd's long response above, "I've been ejected before for 'disruption,' . . ." -apparently from multiple "organizations". Food for thought, R. Baley (talk) 22:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Abd/GoRight disruption of dispute resolution proceedings

GoRight and Abd have on multiple occasions attempted to derail dispute resolution proceedings against the other.

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Mutual trolling societies are harmful to the project. Raul654 (talk) 21:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• Reject - This is as ridiculous as Raul's claims on his WP:ATTACKPAGE page (a policy violation ... and note that Raul does not accuse me of misinterpreting that). This is also a prime example of his modus operandi. The fact that Abd and I tend to "participate" in some of the same proceedings is obviously an attempt on our part to "derail" the proceedings. We have our own little two person cabal, it seems, and Raul fears we may destroy the project. At least that's the view from inside Raul's myopically POV world. It would be amusing to write a parallel to Raul's screeds (here and on the evidence page) titled "Raul/WMC/SS/KDP/... Majority POV Pushing Society" and I could easily provide just as many examples (probably more) of where those same individuals support one another's positions in dispute resolution proceedings. However unlike some individuals who engage in disruptive activities for their own amusement, I do not. Last but not least, could Raul please explain how this is even relevant to the case at hand, or is he just using this proceeding as a stage to get attention for himself or his own amusement? --GoRight (talk) 01:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• Looks that way to me. Spartaz 06:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• Yes it seems like it. Mathsci (talk) 07:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

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Abd banned

1) Abd is banned from Misplaced Pages.

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Abd is a net negative to the project. When he was a fairly quiet net negative, that was merely irritating but tolerable. Now he seems determined to be a noisy net negative, this would appear to be the best solution William M. Connolley (talk) 18:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

A one year full ban could finally make him get the message that he has to change his behaviour in order to collaborate productively in wikipedia. And he woldn't be able to re-interpret it as an endorsement of his position, like he did with the advice in the last case (see #6 of here in evidence). The evidence I found shows that advising, encouraging, criticizing, etc, has gone on for months with no effect, and no acknowledgement of being a problem in his editing. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Mind you, a shorter full ban could serve the same purpose. Also, this has to be coupled with an indefinite ban from Cold fusion and its talk page, and from editing policy pages and their talk pages. If he wants to edit those again, he has to ask for a review of his edits by the community or by Arbcom. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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He contributes little and causes many problems. Clearly a case of someone we are better off without. Raul654 (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Its hard to see anything that Abd has contributed recently that hasn't been a ridiculous drain on other editor's time and energy. Their abject refusal to adapt their approach to meet the needs of other editors is unacceptable. Spartaz 16:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

On a technical point, ArbCom has traditionally issued bans only up to one year. Stifle (talk) 20:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Recently they have been banning outright. Spartaz 08:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately at present his own private agenda seems to take precedence over wikipedia policies. His net contribution is negative at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Reject. Abd has provided tireless services to the project and always seeks to find a fair and reasonable position duly supported by discussion and consensus. This is the ideal of the project and his efforts should be commended, not punished. --GoRight (talk) 23:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Approve Abd has been a disruptive influence on the cold fusion talk page, and dismisses criticism. For example, after I suggested he write shorter text on the cold fusion talk page and focus on the main article, he responded with this: . Olorinish (talk) 01:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Undecided at the moment but leaning towards this if necessary. The dif above from Olorinish is some of what I've seen that tells me that Abd has too strong an agenda that he wants to go forward with if this case goes his way. I feel that Abd feels he has done a lot 'of research' on this subject that he feels he is an expert of sorts to build this article and more. I also don't like the feeling I'm getting that Abd is experimenting with the project towards some goal he has. This case has a feel like when Guido was experimenting with the project which was also rejected. I really think that Abd needs to start reading and listening to what the other editors are saying to him. --CrohnieGal 12:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

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Proposals by User:William M. Connolley

Proposed principles

WP:BURO

1) WP:BURO is reaffirmed: Misplaced Pages is not governed by statute: it is not a moot court, and rules are not the purpose of the community. Instruction creep should be avoided. Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy to violate the principles of the policy. If the rules prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them.

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Compare the somewhat similar/related proposals I made under principles and remedies on the workshop in the Abd and JzG case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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Generally I'm strongly against the pointless reaffirmation of policy, but this one seems to get forgotten far too readily and people need reminding William M. Connolley (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It would probably be better to provide a short summary here rather than simply "we have this policy" - that's the usual way these principles are handled. Hersfold 23:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. I've plucked out some of the bits I like William M. Connolley (talk) 18:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree, but it needs a short summary, like Hersfold says. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Support, with a caveat: increasingly, as the language of the policies and guidelines matures, it should, in theory, become increasingly accurate as to actual practice; substantial deviation between the text of policy and the practice is harmful to the project, as editors will expect, for example, to be protected against administrative abuse by the "letter of the law." The proper balance between IAR, which is essentially the normal discretion of the executive function, and "equal protection under the law" is one which always involves some tension. I have not argued that WMC could not ban me under IAR. It's remarkable that he seems to assert, on the one hand, that his ban was proper under that principle, but, on the other, that this was not his reason (perhaps I'll come back with diffs.) However, IAR isn't restricted to administrators, it applies to all editors, and the problem arises when an admin takes a tenacious position, especially when there is a level of involvement or bias. If I believe that, for example, global warming criticism is pernicious and inherently disruptive and damaging to what society needs to do, urgently, and that, to boot, it is Not True, I may easily believe that IAR would require me to act to prevent this garbage from being put in articles, and blocking the editor might seem the most efficient action to me. Hence we require evidence of policy violations to justify blocks, long-term. Short term, in my opinion, an admin can do just about anything, provided the user affected is experienced, and that the community responds with a just decision quickly. We've lost a lot of admins and editors who retired because of some problematic IAR decision by another admin that wasn't promptly corrected. Rootology may have just retired, partially over WMC's revert warring with him at User talk:Hipocrite over notice of this very RfAr. WMC was ignoring rules, Rootology was trying to follow them. How did the community respond? Were WMC's blatant violations noticed? Where an admin's actions consistently Ignore Rules, they should probably be reviewed for possible bias or incompetence. The ignoring, itself, isn't the issue, it is the result, as well as, especially with administrative actions, the appearance created of Misplaced Pages adminsitrative capriciousness, quite damaging. --Abd (talk) 18:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

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*A useful restatement of policy, "Thou shalt not wikilawyer". Mathsci (talk) 07:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposals by User:Stephan Schulz

Proposed principles

Expert opinion is essential

1) Many topics covered on Misplaced Pages are so complex that expert knowledge is necessary to properly understand and contextualize them.

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• support William M. Connolley (talk) 11:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

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• Proposed.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. This is particularly true of interdisciplinary topics in science. Mathsci (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• I think this is undeniably true, but it's dramatically at odds with the project's prevailing ethos and self-image, where real-world expertise is treated as an unnecessary luxury - nice if it happens to be available, but hardly essential. Real-world expertise has never saved an editor from being drowned out, blocked, or banned if they can't figure out The System. I'm hopeful that as the project has grown, the old attitudes toward expertise are evolving (case in point). On the other hand, most of our articles - including our best work - continues to be written and maintained by enthusiastic and curious amateurs. I don't think we can resolve this fundamental tension in this ArbCom case. MastCell  17:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• "essential" is incorrect. If that were true we would have no science articles at all, or at least significantly less. Change "essential" to "useful" or even "highly desirable" and perhaps I could by in. Having made that distinction clear, I otherwise agree with User:MastCell on the cultural aspects. --GoRight (talk) 05:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

Not enough experts

1) Misplaced Pages has difficulties in attracting and retaining experts. Especially for topics that are also subject to "balanced" coverage in the popular press, experts have a hard time defending real NPOV (reflecting the considered opinions of experts on a topic) against popular misconceptions. Randy in Boise seems to be able to tie up valuable contributor time forever.

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• Alas, all too obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 11:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. However, in some fields, experts are more likely to be blocked or banned than ordinary editors. Experts tend to imagine, funny thing, that they know the field better than others, so incivility can be a problem, as an expert tries to explain an issue to someone who either doesn't have the background or doesn't have the patience to follow the explanation, and loses his or her temper. And it can take a lot of words, and experts can think their topic of expertise is highly interesting! My own view is that we need far more sophisticated ways of dealing with the problem of experts. For starters, many or most experts have a COI on the topics of expertise, so it is arguable that experts should advise us in Talk, and leave the editing to non-experts. We need both protect experts from unreasonable behavior by other editors and protect other editors from abuse by experts. Itchy block fingers don't help. Mathsci asserts expertise in math, and I have no particular reason to doubt that. However, it's clear what the result is for him: heavy attachment to articles he has substantially edited. When an editor finds that the article is unnecessarily obfuscatory or full of jargon that might take a huge amount of research and study for an ordinary reader to follow, and tries to edit it to make it comprehensible, Mathsci may edit war, or call for administrative assistance, and there is a fairly clear case of that recently involving WMC. Mathsci, to demonstrate his credentials as an editor to me, pointed me to articles he'd created. With The Four Seasons (Poussin), I commend him for his fascinating article. I assume he has no WP:COI there. However, Differential geometry of surfaces and Plancherel theorem for spherical functions, he also asserted as examples, are impenetrable jargon, very poorly written for a general-audience encyclopedia. I'm pretty confident that these topics could be far better described in ordinary language, if not thoroughly explored without establishing the specialized language (which can be done,it's an aspect of good technical writing. What we have here is what some kinds of experts will produce if not stringently edited. There is a reason why experts use specialized language: it's precise. But that very precision can be a barrier to understanding; hence an introduction to a topic will avoid the specialized language at the beginning. But this introduces lack of perfect expression, which can be horrifying to an expert. Mathsci's profession is a barrier to his being a good managing editor on topics where he is expert. A much better article would result from a cooperative interaction between experts and ordinary readers, and the latter would insist on comprehensibility, while the former may be more concerned with accuracy. If they find consensus, it's likely to be pretty good! But would Mathsci permit this "ignorant editor" to work on the article? From my observations, not. --Abd (talk) 19:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

As to Kirk shanahan, see Mathsci's comment below, he is a kind of expert, to be sure, and he confines himself to Talk, as he should, but his suggestions can be highly misleading, he knows his own subspecialty and is a bit obsessed by it, and his comments about other editors can be quite uncivil, making my point above. He is a rare bird, one of the most recently published under peer review with criticism of the excess heat phenomenon that was the core discovery -- or allegation -- in 1989. Most other scientists, among those who have reviewed the evidence in depth, as can be documented, have accepted excess heat as real, or possibly real, explanation still not clear. Shanahan is actually quite isolated, but valuable as someone who has criticized cold fusion since the early 1990s, so sometimes he can point to evidence that the rest of us would miss. He does so with heavy bias, though, his interpretations and reports of what is in RS are unreliable. Pcarbonn, apparently an expert, currently a researcher employed in the field, topic banned. ScienceApologist, a physicist and possibly a particle physicist, still allowed to edit Talk, but banned from the article (as he possibly should be from COI), but he doesn't. I wish he would. And JedRothwell, possibly one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the overall topic, not as a scientist, but as a writer and editor (he edits papers for scientists whose native language is not English, apparently he's currently working on papers on cold fusion for Naturwissenschaften), blocked and considered by some to be banned, even though he confined himself to Talk since 2006. An IP editor showed up in December whose POV resembled, to a non-expert (JzG) that of Jed Rothwell, blocked by JzG as a sock, quite blatantly an error. Basically, if an expert in the field, someone familiar with the research, starts editing the article, or even just commenting in Talk, they will meet severe opposition. That's what happened to me as I developed my knowledge of the field through reading the sources, and reported what I found, and even more opposition when I stopped talking and started actually editing, adding sourced material. Yes, sources satisfying WP:RS. I'm still not a true expert, but am far more so, I'd guess, than any other current editor I've seen show up at the article. It's all relative. SA has more knowledge of nuclear physics, I'm sure, but is Cold fusion a nuclear physics article? There is a contradiction involved in asserting that it is! Does he know the recent research published under peer review, and the peer-reviewed secondary sources on this particular topic? It is quite arguable that it's a chemistry or electrochemistry article, and opinion among electrochemists -- experts in calorimetry -- and nuclear physics -- experts in physics that developed largely with an assumption that the chemical environment was irrelevant to nuclear processes -- is apparently quite divergent. What's the mainstream view? Mainstream what? --Abd (talk) 19:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Proposed. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. One such expert Kirk shanahan has privately communicated with me by email his own experiences at cold fusion. He has given permission for his comments to be disclosed if that is deemed appropriate. Mathsci (talk) 09:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Here is Kirk shanahan's email that he has said I may reproduce:

• In my experience, the problem is that the people who most readily adopt and self-apply the mantle of "expert" tend to be closer to enthusiastic amateur than true subject-matter expert. And the more loudly someone asserts their "expertise", the more likely they're pushing a minoritarian point of view way out of proportion to its actual relevance. To extend Stephan's analogy, Randy in Boise is likely to assert that he is an "expert" on the sword-skeleton theory, since he has researched and published extensively on it (on his own website) while Thucydides, Donald Kagan, and Victor Herbert Davis are totally silent on the topic.

  People who are working to make this a more serious, respectable reference work don't need to constantly fall back on their "expertise" - they have recourse to actual reliable sources. MastCell  17:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• I honestly don't mean this to be a snide comment, but is there a point here? What is it? Yes we have trouble retaining experts. So what? Are you planning an as of yet unwritten proposed remedy for this? I am also a bit vague on how this applies to the case at hand. This just strikes me as being a random fact. Can you please attempt to enlighten me on these points? --GoRight (talk) 05:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• Yes we have trouble retaining experts - Abd and other anti-science crackpots are actively driving away actual subject matter experts. But since GoRight is having difficulty making the connection to this case, perhaps Stephan Schulz should rewrite this proposal to be less abstract and make the Abd connection more clear. Raul654 (talk) 05:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

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Preliminary analysis of Abd's evidence

Abd started this case against William M. Connolley when it was possibly clear that he lacked community support. His evidence at present is not well presented or tightly argued. The case specifically involves the incidents between him and William M. Connolley, not how 30 other editors/administrators have reacted. The fact that he has indicated that his evidence will change like a daily blog is an abuse of ArbCom procedure.

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Proposed Abd's evidence today states: "This evidence will morph as the needs of the case require, and unnecessary text removed, with reference if appropriate. Thus if someone wishes to refer to a comment here, be sure to point to the section in history or to diffs." Mathsci (talk) 08:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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