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Requests for arbitration

Jimbo Wales' block of Bishonen

Initiated by Bishonen | talk 17:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC).

Involved parties

• Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• Jimbo Wales (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

(Could clerks please fix this up if there's a special admin/founder template for Jimbo?)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• User talk:Bishonen/block discussion, a discussion/mediation between the parties, requested by John Vandenberg

Statement by Bishonen

I'm sorry this statement is so long, but the case is so unique that that effect has been hard to avoid.

In May 2009, my friend Giano had left (as I thought) Misplaced Pages, which distressed me.

I had disagreed with User:Daedalus969 on an ANI matter, as had many other people, see comment by Lar. Daedalus articulated this grudge (IMO) on May 21, by insisting on putting and defending a "retired" template on Giano's talkpage. This malice, as I believed it, was more effective than I should have allowed it to be: I removed the tag with the edit summary ("Rm "retired" tag, which is none of Daedalus' business") and shouted bad-temperedly at him. Daedalus posted in response:You do not decide what is and what is not my business. Misplaced Pages is everyone's business, if such was the case, AN/I would not be an open noticeboard, nor would we be allowed to edit each others' userpage. That notice's purpose was alerting others that he was gone, so I don't see how you're logic arrived at the point that it wasn't needed, or it wasn't my business. I responded Yes, I do, you little shit. Don't interfere with Giano's page. Now get lost. Shoo! Daedalus then posted:I suggest you retract your personal attack, as it is unwarranted, and, as I'm sure you know, being an admin, against the rules here, per WP:NPA . and posted again: And really, you don't. Just because you have admin powers does not mean you get to decide who is involved and who isn't.

(The above contains all pertinent diffs; please let me know if a fuller diff list is wanted.) The way I spoke to Daedalus was wrong, especially for an admin. I have stated that numerous times. Jimbo claims that I "think it's OK" to speak like that, which he has said frequently at the discussion page User talk:Bishonen/block discussion and in other places. He is mistaken. I ask the committee to please refer to Bishonen/block discussion for the facts. Losing my temper with Daedalus was not ok, but neither, in the Daedalus context, do I think it was heinous. I was very taken aback by Daedalus' aggression, which I did not expect, and by the opportunity he made (in my opinion) to poke at me at a vulnerable moment.

Jimbo Wales isn't an ordinary admin, and a block by him isn't an ordinary block. When he blocked me on May 22, it affected me in a way an ordinary block wouldn't. I have for instance been accorded a section of my own on Casliber's Civility Poll, where my personality and wickedness have been debated in detail (a bit like being in the community stocks); and incidents never cease to be brought up, that would be long forgotten by the community if they didn't involve Jimbo Wales. I'm not complaining of this; I'm trying to make a point to the committee. The point is that a number of arbs spoke of Jimbo as simply "an admin" on the arbitration committee page recently: "We pretty much decline to intervene in short blocks"... " We do take them sooner for admins but not usually for a single short block." But he's not merely "an admin; the block is not merely a short block. Therefore, I believe it's appropriate, and fair to me, to arbitrate Jimbo as an extraordinary case. Should more be expected of the Founder, than of "an admin"? Or less? Here, at Requests for Arbitration, I'm going speak with an expectation that he be treated the same. Arbitration ought to be equal. That said, I feel Jimbo himself has employed his Founder status inappropriately. He is obviously aware of, and makes use of, the subservience and humility of a substantial section of the community; a section which falls down and kisses the hem of his garment when he makes a pronouncement. His "godking" status gives him great advantages; the disadvantages which attend that status are tiny by comparison, and he should, indeed, consider holding his conduct to a high standard—higher, I venture to say, than he does. The most rudimentary morality bids a person in his position be extremely careful in attacking users—all of whose power is so much less than his own—and in casting editors into outer darkness. If Jimbo Wales is not aware of these matters, he needs to strive to become so.

I agree that calling Daedalus a little shit was wrong. But I want specifically to make the point in this RfAR that that statement of mine was a good deal less offensive than the things Jimbo said of me, on ANI, a public Misplaced Pages place. I hope the arbcom will address that point. These were his words:

• This all seems sadly unbecoming to me, and a direct consequence of our having been too tolerant, for too long, of toxic personalities.

Unlike myself, Jimbo thinks his statement was ok; in fact he insists that "toxic personality" didn't even refer to me. (see Bishonen/block discussion, all over the place, and especially the comment of Raul654:.). I won't go into any syntactic subtleties here, but merely note that the community has assumed Jimbo was talking about me. His statement is gross and disgraceful, and he has no right to speak of an editor, or indeed of anybody, like that.

Another point: I don't think Jimbo ought to have admin tools, especially not a block button. I have attempted to show above that his block of me was wrongful. Looking at his admin log, there are a number of bad blocks. Entering mean, triumphant, power-speaking block reasons into the log is far from being conduct of "the highest standard." "User says he is leaving. Good timing." Treating users as children is not a high standard. Giano, for instance, is an adult, and a dignified guy; not a child to be sent to the corner with a "be good". Jimbo prevents most blockees from using Misplaced Pages e-mail: a very bad idea, which shows ignorance of what blocks are for. It took Jimbo half an hour and a poke from MzMcBride to get round to performing his basic admin obligation of posting a block message on my page back in May; time which he spent posting on ANI and on his own talkpage. He is altogether not good with blocks. The six months of block moratorium which he offers (coercively) are insufficient. Bishonen | talk 17:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC).

• P.S.: one party—Jimbo—has access to the arbcom mailing list and one—me—does not. Can something be done about this? This is not a mere technical problem; I think being able to hear the arbs' discussion makes a tremendous difference to how, as a party, one is able to manage oneself during a case. Could you please either add me to the list, or remove Jimbo from it? Either alternative will do me—I don't care—but removing Jimbo is probably the more realistic option. Bishonen | talk 17:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC).

Response to statement by Jimbo Wales

I'm afraid I see your request for a "proper" mediation process, after the discussion we have previously had at User talk:Bishonen/block discussion, as a mere formality. No matter what name you call that discussion by— "mediation" or something else—the fact remains that we have tried in good faith, yet unfortunately failed, to "move forward usefully". I don't see any point in arguing about the Bishonen/block discussion page; I'll leave it to the arbs to read it and to determine whether or not they deem you to have answered my questions in a responsive and meaningful way there. As for your condescension w r t trying to "calm Bishonen", please don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs. Bishonen | talk 14:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC).

Statement by Jimbo Wales

Please do not alter this section

This case should be declined for a number of reasons, not least of which that there has been no attempt at mediation. I was invited to discuss the matter directly with Bishonen, and did, but under conditions that no one else get involved. This was not my requested condition, this is how it was presented to me. Until such time as we have gone through a proper mediation process, I see no reason for ArbCom to get involved.

I would like to note, as well, that I have already gone out of my way, unsuccessfully, to try to find some way to calm Bishonen. I volunteered that I will not use my block tools for a minimum of 6 months (unilaterally, with no obligation of her part - a pledge that I will honor despite it having apparently done no good as a gesture of kindness whatsoever), just to set aside that concern of hers. I put forward a very precise explanation of why I made the block, including careful and accurate citations to policy. I offered that we should hold a poll in the community to assess whether, as she claims, policy permits admins to curse at users without being blocked for it. I have explained in great detail how I believe that a general tolerance for toxic behaviors has led us to a situation in which otherwise good editors like Bishonen end up snapping at people inappropriately.

Therefore, I would like to request that Bishonen work with me to find helpful mediators to assist us in moving forward usefully, and I would like to request that the Arbitration Committee decline the case at the present time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user Martinp

It is sad to see a valued contributor still offended 2 months after an exchange of words, but I don’t see what helpful actions Arbcom can do here. Jimbo’s comment on ANI was at worst ambiguous. He has since then several times clarified that he was not labeling Bishonen a toxic personality, but was referring to the overall atmosphere prompting her remark. This is plausible in the context of the discussion above the comment in question, and both Occam’s Razor and his subsequent remarks should prompt us to accept this explanation. This is not dependent on any special status.

That leaves the potential issue of the appropriateness of the 3-hour civility or personal attack block itself, or perhaps the fact that Jimbo doesn’t follow all the steps of the notification process the community has developed around blocks. Perhaps both sides can learn something here, but hardly something to arbitrate 2 months after the fact.

Words can’t be unsaid after the fact and feelings can’t be unfelt. We can only hope that Bishonen’s sense of injustice will dissipate, and that she will accept that the worst possible interpretation of the comment in question is not the only one. More broadly, perhaps we could all try to avoid the sorts of behaviors that create an atmosphere where feelings of attack, insult, and offense can fester. Martinp (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by MickMacNee

In arbcom parlance, the commmittee needs to accept this case in order to examine the behaviour of all parties, but in a very narrow scope. I am particularly thinking about the actions of Bishonen, and any and all admins justifiably considered to be 'on duty', in the period between the first complaint at ANI from Deadalus at 21:43, 21 May 2009, and Jimbo's notification to ANI of the block at 02:20, 22 May 2009 (7 minutes after the block was made), a period of nearly 5 hours, a discussion of which Bishonen was aware of and had commented within, as well as numerous admins and other editors. This examination should be against established written policy and established community practice with regard to the merits and acceptance of issuing blocks for personal attacks, in light of the failure of attempts to establish a unified community opinion in review of this block after the event. Any and all users found to be lacking should be dealt with accordingly, and any and all policies found to be innaccurate w.r.t. to normal practice should be identified for community attention. MickMacNee (talk) 00:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user Greg L

I rather agree with Martinp’s response (but not entirely, as it sides a little too strongly with Jimbo). Both Bishonen and Jimbo screwed up. Jimbo didn't follow known rules for blocking, but that happens all the darned time on Misplaced Pages. Really, Jimbo's block was a symbolic slap on the wrist to make a point. Supposedly, blocks are only protective and aren't punitive nor symbolic, but reality doesn’t work that way on Misplaced Pages. Symbolic warnings are met out all the time and will always so. I’ve been given a “gentle tap” (three-hour block) by an admin for “edit warring” (two reversions—not three) with the blocking admin; my experience can't be all that unusual.

No, where Jimbo screwed up big time is in writing “…and a direct consequence of our having been too tolerant, for too long, of toxic personalities”. There is no possible reasonable interpretation of that other than to conclude he believed at the time that Bishonen had a toxic personality. That was a deeply cutting remark that was thoughtless to a hard-working volunteer on Misplaced Pages. It would be better, in my opinion, if he had took ‘ownership’ of the remark, conceded that any reasonable person would interpret it as Bishonen did, and retracted it as having been thoughtless and hurtful.

However, exactly like Martinp pointed out, this all occurred two months ago. Further, Bishonen could learn a lesson from P.T. Barnum: “there's no such thing as bad press, as long as they spell your name right.” Most Wikipedians wouldn’t know of Bishonen were it not for that little two-way gaff and the resultant stink Bishonen has made of it. Bishonen would do well to stop acting like God himself suggested she had a toxic personality and drop it. Jimbo puts on his pants one leg at a time, just like everyone else; no one pretends that he is perfect. However, Jimbo shepherds Misplaced Pages quite well in my opinion and has an unfailing personal belief that whatever the community consensus is on matters is always the right thing to do. Like the monarch of the U.K., he is an important figurehead who has a crucial role in helping to steer Misplaced Pages.

It’s time to drop it. Greg L (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Jack Merridew

This case should be accepted. I have followed it all along and have a good understanding of how events played out.

Precis

Very poor behavior by Daedalus969 over time, Bishonen snapped at him in a fairly mild manner due to strong provocation, and Jimmy blocked the wrong party on a diff without a full understanding (imo) of the broader context, and without warning or discussion.

Jimmy's initial use of the term "toxic personality" rather clearly was intended to adhere to Bishonen; Casliber's immediate comment to him supports this view. She most certainly does not have a toxic personality. Over the course of subsequent discussion, this term has been downgraded to "toxic behaviors" and has been recast as applying to poor behaviors in the wider community; which in this case would mean Daedalus's conduct. I see the "recasting" as damage control. I agree with the latter view; there is a lot of toxic behavior about and it has been far too tolerated for far too long. It is not about incivility in the sense of George Carlin's little list; shit, I use the word "fuck" in civil discourse. Incivility is about strident internet tough guy attitudes, the professional wiki-lawyers playing power politics, &c. There are lots of cabal-wannabes who are in the wiki-game for the argumentation, for the joy of the vandal-hunt. To them, teh wiki is a new Great Game with high stakes and live targets. For those who level-up a bunch, there are seriouz resume items and whole livelihoods at stake. It's not just about building an encyclopaedia ;)

So, Jimmy made a Bad Block™ and emboldened a genuinely disruptive user. He has made a pledge to set down the block button for the rest of the year. nb: the initial offer was by no means a unilateral one; that, too, was recast. I see this case as a referendum on Jimmy's meatball:GodKing status. I believe he should recast himself more as meatball:FirstServant and that he owes Bishonen an apology. He should not be in the blocking business and most of the other rights should be little used. He is an editor with less than 5000 edits; only 700 to articles and more than a third of them to his own talk page. This is not an editor who is engaged in the community. The wiki is huge and complicated and one has to spend a fair bit of time on it to have a good idea what's going on. Jimmy has other things to do for the projects. Desysop, with thanks.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

p.s. I'll drop in a few diffs as I dig them up:

• Cas re "toxic personalities" ()

  Jimmy's reply:

• The initial deal to lay down the block button for 6 months:

  then recast as unilateral:

• A chat I had with Jimmy about this:
• Jimmy's RfA: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Jimbo Wales — never happened

added 06:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A comment by Jimmy, from today, to the effect that, given the ambient toxic environment, "good users", such as Bish, have no choice other than to "join the bad behaviors":

"My position, which I have held for quite some time, is that when we are excessively tolerant of toxic behaviors, we poison the environment and push good people to join in the bad behaviors — they end up with no other choice."

If she had no choice, why the Royal smackdown? Given this rational, the culpable would be the tolerant parties.

added 06:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

addendum, and then I'm done talking ;)

It has been quite clear thought this that the intent here is to raise the bar on administrator behavior. I have no issue with the idea that admins, and founders, should be held to standards of conduct. Is this one of the the wiki's more pressing issues? I don't think so. Of far greater import is the undisciplined mob of users that swarm AN/I and whatever the drama-rich page of the moment is. There are a lot of fairly regular users leading factions of the mob. It's all very cliquey. This is a more pressing problem than "good users" provoked by snotty littluns.

added 06:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user Joopercoopers

Give that Jimbo is still of the opinion that the block was 100% within policy and we should be doing more of it, there seems little room for negotiation at mediation. I urge acceptance of the case, to determine what is what, in respect to Jimbo's use of the block button. --Joopercoopers (talk) 10:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user Giano

I think it important that the ArbCom accepts this case. At the moment Misplaced Pages lacks consistency. Two days ago there was the case where Admins refused for several hours to block an established editor with 7K edits for calling another editor a "cocksucker." Yet, Jimbo can appear from nowhere and without warning block a very established and respected Admin for a momentary (and pretty mild loss of cool) with an editor who was clearly making a nuisance of himself. Therefore the case should be used to achieve I: consistency of when it's justified to block. II: Of late, Jimbo's authority is being challenged all over the site - was Jimbo's block just a punitive attempt to humiliate an admin, and re-establishing his authority by use of fear. III: Does Jimbo have this authority to re-establish? IV: Was Jimbo correct to refer to Bishonen (or anyone involved) as a toxic personality? This case is not about seeing anyone de-sysopped or punished. To deflect a case, Jimbo has already agreed not to block anyone for 6 months; this case needs to be accepted to determine a definitive ruling to establish clarity on these issues. These are not matters the ArbCom can avoid; the community and Jimbo needs guidance, it is expected that the ArbCom provide it. Giano (talk) 10:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

Above Giano mentions that a user was blocked for calmly suggesting that Giano was a "cock sucker". I placed that block because the insult appeared to be an attempt to harass Giano, and it could be read as an insult to sexual orientation. Bishonen's scatalogical reference appears to have been an expression of her own dismay, a hot headed display of temper. It takes a bit of thoughtfulness to distinguish between these two cases. Mere incivility should not be blockable. Bishonen's should have been asked to refactor her remark and warned that admins are expected to do a better than average job of maintaining decorum, even when upset. In the alternative, Bishonen's sysop privileges could have been suspended for a short time to make clear that admins will not be tolerated to cuss at users. I suggest Jimbo do the following:

1. Make a note on Bishonen's block log to disregard the block.
2. State that Bishonen is not a toxic personality.
3. Warn the admin corps that cussing at users will not be tolerated, and state what the penalty will be for anybody who breaks that condition.

Setting expectations before taking action is a good way to minimize drama. I agree with Giano's point above that our civility and no personal attacks policies are applied very inconsistently. Jehochman 13:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/2)

• Comment. I've had private correspondence with both Bishonen and Jimbo about the matter, so if one or both parties requests it, I will recuse. Otherwise, I won't recuse because I don't think that my discussion with either of them has caused me to prejudge the situation differently than others that have read their on site discussion. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment, Jimbo and many of the arbitrators are participating in the WP:DRAMAOUT, which will mean that this request wont have much traction until after it ends. John Vandenberg 00:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I see, so everything just piles up into even more of a backlog while the Arbcom take a holiday from looking at drama, which is what they are there for. Marvellous idea! Giano (talk) 14:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)