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RfC

There's a longstanding discussion of Asmahan's nationality. Several options have been discussed: one is to label her "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin" (this edit); another is to not mention her nationality in the lede at all, and merely state her origins and naturalizing in the paragraphs below (this edit). Which should be used, or is there another option? — HelloAnnyong 15:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

This is my first contribution to Misplaced Pages, but I have been following the debate for some time. My position is that I support the current version of 15:48, 2 July 2009. And I believe her Egyptian nationality needs to be in the lead. Nefer Tweety (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a thread related to this comment below. — HelloAnnyong 14:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were Egyptian citizens as all the sources show. We, in Egypt, have always considered them to be Egyptians and they sang all their songs in Egyptian. I think that this is what the articles of Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash should make very clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.201.252.219 (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand that mentioning the name of a public figure, their date of birth (and death), nationality (and origin) and profession are the first and most important pieces of information one would search for. How do you want to ignore mentioning Asmahan's nationality in the lead? That is basic information that has to be to there. When I supported this point of view I used logic and common sense, nothing more! This article http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Lebanon/192567 identifies Asmahan as Egyptian. More importantly, Sherifa Zuhur, the author of the book that has been widely used all over the page, Asmahan's Secrets, makes a comment at the bottom of the article. She objects to many things on it, but NOT to Asmahan's identification as Egyptian. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm reading parts of the book, but I don't see that she denies that Asmahan was originally a Syrian. It doesn't matter if people in Egypt considered her Egyptian, that doesn't take the Syrian aspect away. Concerning her nationality, the NPOV and accurate thing to state in the lead is "Asmahan... was an Egyptian singer with Syrian origins." --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Al Ameer: I agree with you. Asmahan was Egyptian of Syrian (father) and Lebanese (mother) origin. This is the way it should be stated in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab Cowboy (talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

First of all to lead this RFC successfully we have to remember that all articles must follow Neutral point of view, Verifiability, and No original research. I've read most of the discussion and it seems that both parties care a lot for Asmahan's article on Misplaced Pages and want to broaden its spectrum. I hope after this discussion is closed Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy continue to work on improving the article with all the references and knowledge they have about the subject.

After reading all of this discussion I became confused about facts and Original Research. All the references displayed in this discussion will be displayed in the article as long as they're reliable sources. So please both parties display here a fact and its reference and please don't comment on why this fact is a fact. Just put in points your facts and next to them your references. I think that Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy in the end are saying the same facts just with a different wording. I hope this will lead to a consensus in a short period of time. Before consensus has been reached please don't change the lead. You can however replace the many citation needed templates with your references. Please Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy don't revert each others edits and restrict your edits on placing references and expanding the article. Again, please place under the fact header your facts with your references with no opinions added. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Syrian nationality

1. "Asmahan's parents were Fahd al-Atrash, a Syrian Druze from Suwayda"(Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria , "and 'Alia al-Mundhir, a Lebanese Druze from Hasbaya".(Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria

2. "The al-Atrash clan Asmahan and her family was from is a notorious Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm (The Great Syrian Revolt) http://books.google.com/books?id=Ej8ZMk1822sC&pg=PA72&dq=sultan+al+atrash (Her father- al Atrash clan, "Images of enchantment" Page 81) http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria "Trouble erupted with the colonial power after King Faysals defeat and the Adham Khanjar incident which Sultan al-Atrash and his men had participated in. 'Alia fled Suwayda with her kids" (Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria)

3. (two important words here what was deleted by Arab Cowboy) "she returned to Syria where the marriage was celebrated in 1933, and gave birth to a daughter, Camellia. She lived in Suwayda, her home town, (Quote: "Asmahan was from Suwayda")(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, Page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria "She came from an important clan in the mountains of Syria" = Suwayda/Jabal Druze)(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, last page) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA98&dq=asmahan

4. (later on) "while the rest of the family emigrated to Egypt (around 1923), where they were naturalized later on. (Quote:"Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on") (Asmahan's Secrets,page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria

5. And considering that her father was Syrian, her mother Lebanese and she lived the first years of her life in Syria and that she was born heading to the French Mandate of Syria, It is not correct to call her an Egyptian in the first line of the article. Asmahan did not abandon or give up her Syrian background: (Quote: Asmahan paid attention to the news, she was concerned with two fronts, Egypt and conditions in Syria) (Page 90) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria

Notes: here below in the Egyptian Nationality section on nr 6, Arab Cowboy refers to page 95 in a book, that page is not viewable online. Also in nr 7, he refers to page 165, that page is also not viewable.

Not sure who wrote the above, but reliable sources are not required to be online. I have quoted the referenced text where possible. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian nationality

1. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash were of Syrian (father)-Lebanese (mother) origin. There is no evidence to confirm that they held either citizenship. When they arrived in Egypt, the Atrash family possessed no passports. source: (1) Asmahan's Secrets by Sherifa Zuhur. page 39 and (2) In this live interview, at Time 4:34 with Fuad al-Atrash, he states that the al-Atrashes had no passports when they arrived in Egypt, among many others.

2. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash immigrated to Egypt at 5 and 8 years old, respectively, in 1923. sources: (1) Asmahan's Secrets, pages 34 (Asmahan born in 1917 or 1918) and page 38 (family immigrated to Egypt in 1923). and (2) Syria & Lebanon By Terry Carter, Lara Dunston, Amelia Thomas, Lonely Planet Publications. page 72 (Farid born in 1915)

3. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash became Egyptian citizens. sources: (1) The Evolution of Rai Music Hana Noor Al-Deen, Journal of Black Studies, May 2005; vol. 35: pp. 597 - 611. and (2) article dated 23 May 2008, by Abdel Fadil Taha Al-Quds Al-Arabi "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....".

4. The entire bodies of work of both artists, Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash, were made in Egypt and virtually all was in the Egyptian Arabic dialect. sources: (1) Female Singers in Egypt and (2) The Druzes in the Jewish state By Kais Firro. page 240: "after they had moved from Jabal Al-Duruz to Egypt, Farid and Asmahan never again sang in the Syrian dialect".

5. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's adopted homeland was Egypt. sources: (1) World Music: "they are Egyptian by adoption" and (2) Asmahan's Secrets: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt.".

6. Asmahan was regarded as a "foreigner" by her own clan when she was married to her cousin in Syria. When her marriage to her cousin failed, she returned immediately to her adopted homeland, Egypt. source: Asmahan's Secrets. page 95: "For the singer was in many ways a sophisticated "foreigner" in her home province - a binational, or a transnational as we might say now...", page 18 "when asked to sing of cultural patriotism and love, she sang of Egypt", and page 216 "her quest for individual happiness may indeed have been more strongly motivated than her patriotism to her clan". and

7. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash insisted on being buried in Egypt. sources: (1) Sherifa Zuhur states, on page 165, quoting the Egyptian Gazette newspaper, "Asmahan wished to be buried in Egypt". (2) Farid died while on a visit to Lebanon and his body was flown back to Egypt for burial. Sami Asmar states here that Farid's older brother, "Fou'ad stressed Farid's wish to be buried in Cairo". See also (3) here too.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion from the facts

First of all it seems that there are so many sources but none of them have been added to the article to complete the "citation needed" templates. With that many sources you could probably bring the article to Featured status if both of you work together. I see that the facts don't contradict each other and should all be added to the article. The article should be restructured to start with "Early life" which should include three paragraphs about her family, birth and immigration. Another section should be created about her marriage (She was 15?), return to Suwayda, divorce and her career during that time. The word "returned" can be added as long as there is in the early life section a mentioning (with reference) that she lived in Suwayda until she was five. The word "home town" may not be added as it is subjective and "home" can only be specified by Asmahan herself. The fact that her mother was Lebanese should be mentioned, however nationality at that time was according to the father. There is no specific date when they got their citizenship, Arab Cowboy if u find such evidence you can put it forward, however it can't be contested that they got the Egyptian citizenship. So therefore I give Supreme Deliciousness 24 hours to create all the requested sections integrating your references and if capable Arab Cowboy's section. You may not alter the lead before later discussion. If Supreme Deliciousness isn't capable of doing this work within the next 24 hours, Arab Cowboy gets the job. Please Supreme Deliciousness if u don't have time or the willingness to do so say so. Arab Cowboy after his changes you can propose changes to what he added. You may not revert anything before discussion. You may however add information whenever possible, however also after the 24hours deadline. I hope we can solve this issue before the end of the week.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa abdelmoneim, you give me authority to freely edit the article in 24 hours? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm telling Arab Cowboy not to revert any of your edits within the next 24 hours. You're an established User and are very capable of writing unbiased sections.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa abdelmoneim, ok thanks, I will begin later on tonight, and I will send you a message when I'm done so you can take a look at it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, Arab Cowboy would u have a problem with that?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, before editing can begin, please list the "facts" that are agreed upon, consistent with those listed above. Is the lead still up for negotiation? I think the only thing missing from the lead is the importance of her work. Also, in her photobox, there should be no mention of any Syrian music, for sources show that she never sang in Syrian. I only know of a (one) Lebanese song that she sang, outside of her entire repertoire in Egyptian. So, she had no Syrian music to speak of. The word "returned," if used to mention Asmahan's move to Swaida, will also be used to refer to her move back to Egypt after her divorce. After SD writes the first draft, I will have the right to edit the whole thing, and add new sections, in a new draft subject to discussion. Is this agreeable? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

All the facts are agreed upon unless otherwise noted in my first reply under "Conclusion from the facts". The lead is for negotiation after the main body is fixed. As I said before Supreme Deliciousness is not to change the lead until he finishes his draft and a lead with three paragraphs should after that be created. Supreme Deliciousness is going to start later tonight, I hope however that he specifies at what time exactly. The word return can be used about her return to Egypt. Arab Cowboy you may not alter anything he writes. You can only propose it here and then it's up for discussion. You may however expand with your information without discussion. Which Supreme Deliciousness can contest here but not remove. If Supreme Deliciousness is going to start later then I'd suggest you start with the changes and he awaits his turn. You may not skip any of the facts he posted and the same Supreme Deliciousness.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, ok, I'll be patient for 24 hours and agree to your arrangement. Please note, however, that this article is about Asmahan, not her family (there are other articles about Al-Atrash clan, and the family has a branch in Egypt who are Egyptian citizens) and any subjective expressions or "facts" without reliable sources will be removed. The article should generally be weighed proportionally to the amount of time she lived in Syria versus the amount of time she lived in Egypt. Thanks for your help. SD may proceed if these guidelines are agreed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Everything about her family that relates to her life and the circumstances she grew up in should be added. The early life section should also have a {{see also}} template that goes to the Al-Atrash article. In the meantime till finishes his editing, I suggest you create a todo section in this talk page suggesting what changes are to be made so that this article would mature and expand.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad everything here seems to be settling down. I just want to state about the genres, that Syrian should be removed. It is clear from the sources that she sang in the Egyptian style. Unless someone could bring up a source that backs the claim that she also sang in the Syrian style, that will have to be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Arab Cowboy and Supreme Deliciousness, I find the improvements to the article by the two of you very good and of a very high standard. It seems however as of now that there is no information on the legacy of Asmahan in Egypt. A museum has been created for her legacy in Syria, her influence in Egypt or Syria isn't mentioned though. The TV show has many references that I sent Arab Cowboy as he knows arabic and can use the references. Nothing has been added though. The Voice characteristics section is totally unreffed which makes it a candidate for removal. Her influence in Egypt or Syria isn't mentioned anywhere, which is another problem. So anyway aside from that, does anyone of you have any comments on the info added by the other? Is anything not factually correct or sth.? After this has been cleared, there is a clear conclusion from the article and the fact's contents that both of you can understand. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 01:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Diaa, I am still working on the sections that you mentioned and gathering information. I have read the information you sent on the TV series and am in the process of translating parts of it. Will make the changes in the weekend; week is a little busy. I am not sure what you mean by "influence". Please clarify. I will also make some more general comments. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Critique of the expansions

List here any critic on the writing of the others. I'll review each allegation and state my comments.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments on the info added by AC.

1."'Alia chose to escape to Egypt because Egypt was under British, as opposed to French, mandate" This is somewhat a repeat of my "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether."

The fleeing to Egypt should be merged with the Immigration section. I'll take care of it and you could state your opinion on that. The sentence "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether." isn't correct. The source states they went "to Haifa and by train to Egypt" in connection to "escape the french altogether". Through singling out Egypt from the sentence it shows that their first choice to Escape the French was living in Haifa. This isn't clear from the source and as such is misleading.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

2. "and she knew of a written correspondence relationship between Sultan al-Atrash and Egypt’s then popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul, each fighting colonial occupation on his respective turf." .. What is this? Was this the reason she fled to Egypt because she knew of a written correspondence relationship between two leaders?.. and if Zaghloul was popular or not brings no substance to the article.

This could be one of the reasons she fled to Egypt. She wanted to hide her name so that the French wouldn't find her and take revenge, which was achieved by losing the passports and having a prime minister as a correspondent in Egypt. This has to be stated. However the word "popular" shouldn't be there as it is ambiguous and a prime minister is popular whether good or bad. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The source added by AC for this is a youtube video, my arabic is far from good, so can you please check through it?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

3."Alia drove south with her children, Fuad, Farid, and Amal al-Atrash, to Haifa in Palestine," This is somewhat repeat of what I added. "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether."

Yes like above I'll move some of the first section to the second.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

4. "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." This is guessing.

Correct, this can't be stated even by Sherifa Zuhur.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

5. And the rest of the text AC added should be in another section since it has to do with her career life and not immigration to Egypt.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"Marriages and Personal life"

6. He added "Asmahan had not actually lived in the Jabal in childhood, she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits."

While the source says at page 36: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

"In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her familys consciousness rather then her familys residences in Turkey and Beirut."

This isn't a conflict to the above, "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s". The word "home" is connected to her family (father, mother...) which were Druze and saw Jabal Druze as their home. This however doesn't make sense cause if she didn't live on Jabal Druze then she wouldn't flee the French. Could u look for another source that would clear this up?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes its is, because AC added that she didn't live there while the sources are saying that she did live there. The original sentence is this "her childhood in the mountains of the Druze" so she had her childhood or part of it in the Jabal, original sentence: "She remembered a happy and carfree period" So it was a period that she lived there. Original sentence: "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself" Beacuse she wasnt born there so she lievd soemwhere else before and her mother fled early in Asmahans life. And also it would controdickt info in the same book, page 38: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 Read the "Flight" section Amals(Asmahans) emigration, her mother 3Alaia fleeing Jabal, as has already been added to the article, so this shows that she indeed did live there. She wasn't born, there so this was maybe a period of when she did live there. And this sentence: "rather then her familys residences in Turkey and Beirut." does not mean that she as AC wrote "she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey" Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, the sources: Asmahan's Secrets on p. 36 and this one, 4th paragraph make it clear that Asmahan did not live in al-Jabal in childhood, but went there only on visits. It is, probably, during one of these visits that the raid occured, or that the raid occurred at another place named "al-Qrayya". Alia initially fled to Damascus then to her home in Beirut when the raid occured. Asmahan's Secrets on page 39 states that Alia did not consider the home in al-Jabal to be her home, but her husband's, i.e., she was not living there, and refused to go to it when her husband sent a cousin, Salim, to summon her. It is argued, also in Asmahan's Secrets, p. 38, that "Alia never felt comfortable in al-Jabal," and when the French bombarded "al-Qrayya" (not sure if this is the same as Swaida) she left for Damascus and would not return. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

1.This source that AC is refering to is controdicting the book: http://www.asmahan.com/profile/index.php "Asmahan's father died in 1924, when she was only six, and her family then emigrated to Egypt" while according to the book Asmahans Secrets he was still alive when they fled "When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids."

2.AC claims that Asmahans Secrets on page 36 "make it clear" that Asmahan did not live in Jabal during her childhood. This is not true: Asmahans Secrets: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." The writer makes an assumption at the end In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, this means that they indeed did live there. http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment

3.AC also writes: "the home in al-Jabal to be her home, but her husband's, i.e., she was not living there" The link says nothing about her not living there.

4.What AC later writes has already been explained in the article :"The fighting with the french continued for almost a year after. 'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children. When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of they're children (as in they would be killed of the fighting in Suwayda) Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda. 'Alia and her children moved on to Beirut but after being notified that she might be arrested by the french to force a ceasefire in Suwayda" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

7. He also removed that she had returned to Syria. and added the word "returned" to Egypt instead.

This is dependent on 6.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

8. . This can not be found in the sources: "Asmahan agreed to the marriage proposal on three conditions: to live in Damascus as opposed to the Druze mountain (the Jabal); to not be forced to don the hijab; and to spend her winters in Cairo."

I guess Arab Cowboy is the one who answers this.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

9. This can not be found in the sources: "Asmahan was to grow increasingly lonely and frustrated with life in the Jabal" The original sentence is this: "She could not stay away from the stage for long, however."

Will rewrite.

I request from Diaa abdelmoneim, to re write this sections and actually follow what the sources are saying.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• It seems that the Syrian or Egyptian Identity is an issue that is discussed in multiple books and sources. I guess a section about her identity would be useful stating the difficulty in determining how she saw herself. I'm not sure if she got the Egyptian passport, she has been deported multiple times it seems, which can be found here http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html . I guess a section like that should be created. I propose again ceasing editing until I somehow restructure the first three sections. In the meantime you can write about her involvement in WWII as it seems this would be crucial in the identity issue. Th Death section is also largely unreferenced so I suggest you (SD or AC) work on that too. The legacy section should be expanded with the info about the film created and the museums created for her. I'll do what I can in the meantime, which we could discuss again later on.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, her identity is very clear. She referring Jabal as "home". And look here on page 37, http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 "Asmahan always refferd to her relative Sulatan al Atrash along with her father to assert her lineage and status, She told a friend: "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash amd the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this section. I explained some of this below, but basically I have an issue with the tone of many sections. It's just too informal sounding, and at times seems irrelevant or is glorifying her too much. Some examples:

• "'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children."
• "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely."

There are others as well, but I think the article just needs a general scrubbing. — HelloAnnyong 17:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Tag removal and more cleanup

I'm removing the RfC tag, since I think we've sort of come to a consensus here. Or at least the issues that caused the need for an RfC have passed. If anyone disagrees, please go ahead and readd it. As a side note, the last handful of edits are pretty poor, in my opinion. The text is entirely too informal. We're not here to tell stories about her life - people can read that on their own if they want. And to reiterate, this page is not a fansite. Let's examine.

• "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." - Come on. There's no source for that, and it's pure conjecture.
• "'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children." Same thing. She felt that? There's no source for that.

There's a lot more. I'm inclined to go through and remove statements like these if they're not well-sourced (and no original research or synthesis with the sources, please!) but I'll allow for a few days to get more sources in. — HelloAnnyong 16:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The main issue has not passed, which is the first line of the article labeling her as "Egyptian" That part about her Immigration to Egypt was added buy AC and I have already pointed out in the Critique of the expansions section that it should be removed. That second one about 'Alia couldn't endure... is sourced, page 38 http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA98&dq=asmahans+secrets --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So do you want me to add the tag back? It seems like we've got a few more editors involved now. And as for that second one, even if it is sourced, that doesn't mean it should be included. Wiki isn't an indiscriminate collection of info. This article doesn't need to mention every single thing that ever happened in her entire life. — HelloAnnyong 16:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

No need to ad it back, but the issue is far from over, the mediator said we would talk about that later and first focus on the rest of the article. Yes sure but, it follows a red line in the text that explains her emigration from Syria: "The fighting with the french continued for almost a year after. 'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children. When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children (as in they would be killed of the fighting in Suwayda) Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda. 'Alia and her children moved on to Beirut but after being notified that she might be arrested by the french to force a ceasefire in Suwayda, they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether. They finally arrived in Egypt where they were naturalized later on." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So we have an entire paragraph of text in there that's not quoted from the source? That's copyvio - and therefore should not be in there. At the very least, it needs to be heavily shortened in the article and fully sourced. — HelloAnnyong 17:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What? the whole quote I added here above is re-written and not copied from the book, all of it is sourced, click on the references and read the pages.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I thought what you wrote above was quoted from the book. And I can't read the pages, some of them aren't available on Google books. (?) — HelloAnnyong 17:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It depends on which link you are using, some links can show pages in the same books others can not, try this one: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Identity Section

The statement made by SD in this section is unscientific and should be removed. The source states that it was made by Asmahan in a certain context, and it was taken out of this context by SD. The author, Sherifa Zuhur, stated that the statement was, in fact, inaccurate: Asmahan was not the cousin of Prince Hassan, but "actually a third cousin twice removed". More importantly, the author stated that it was "cuttingly accurate" that that lineage had no meaning at all in Egypt. It was a statement, even if true, that was made as a boastful bluff to a "friend" and was taken out of context by SD. The only thing that matters in this regard is the Identity that Asmahan chose for herself. As the sources show, Asmahan had not lived in Suwayda in childhood and, when married to Hassan, she could not get accustomed to life in the Druze mountain and grew to despise married life. Additionally, when it was time for her to choose between Syrian and Egyptian citizenships, as this source (http://ramsesthesecond.livejournal.com/32835.html) shows, she demanded a divorce a second time from Hassan and set on a road trip to Egypt to salvage her Egyptian citizenship. She married Ahmad Salim to help her in this cause. The source says: "Asmahan was in tight spot, between losing her throne again and the end of her money also the loss of the Egyptian nationality, so she had to wait for any chance which came true when she met the Egyptian actor Ahmed Salem and married him to move with him back to Cairo from Jerusalem.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nefer Tweety (talk • contribs) 11:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Livejournal posts are not reliable sources for a number of reasons, including WP:SPS. — HelloAnnyong 14:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The statements by Nefer Tweety (I believe Arab Cowboys socupuppet) here above are all lies in his quest to falsify this article and undermine everything Syrian and ad the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere.

He first claims that the section is unscientific and should be removed, although the quotes are direct from Asmahans own mouth so how is this unscientific? And both the administrator Al Ameers son and the mediator Diaa abdelmoneim has asked for an identity section.

1. He claims: "source states that it was made by Asmahan in a certain context, and it was taken out of this context by SD."

Now let us take a look at the sources at page 36 and 37 in Asmahans Secrets: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 This is direct copy from the sources: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin to the Amir al-Atrash and the Druze Revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash" "So what does that mean in Egypt he replied? Your clans, your tribes, your princes are meaningless here" She was living in Egypt at that time and was on her way to her mission in Syria. Then the author writes "This statements was cuttingly accurate, as the Egyptians had their own complex web of elite families."

He claims that "The author, Sherifa Zuhur, stated that the statement was, in fact, inaccurate: Asmahan was not the cousin of Prince Hassan, but "actually a third cousin twice removed"." Now lets take a look at the sources: "(although she was actually a third cousin twice removed)" This has nothing to do with the whole statement being false, this is the author pointing out that they were not first cousins but third cousins, and this has nothing to to with Asmahans comments about her identity.

He says: "the author stated that it was "cuttingly accurate" that that lineage had no meaning at all in Egypt." exactly as a comment from Asmahans friend to her, her friend is saying that what Asmahan just said has no importance in Egypt, this has nothing to do with Asmahans self identity, what is acceptable in Egypt or not.

2. He says: "The only thing that matters in this regard is the Identity that Asmahan chose for herself." Exactly and the only sources quoting her in this matter have I already added in the section and you are trying to get them removed. So what is this agenda you have?

3. He says: "As the sources show, Asmahan had not lived in Suwayda in childhood" This is a complete false lie by Arab Cowboy, there is no source showing this, it was AC himself that added that, the sources showed indeed that she did live in Suweida.

Page 36 in Asmahans Secrets: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." Her childhood in the mountains, she did not spend much time there. Meaning she did indeed live there but not for a long period of time. Also on page 36 she talks about they're servant and their stone house. This is a quote from page 38 in Asmahns Secrets: "It was infact the Adham Khanjar incident that sparked Amals(Asmahans) emigration to Egypt. Alia was not willing to endure another phase of hostilities in the Jabal..." This is direct evidence that what AC/Nefer Tweety are saying is false. She did live there for a period.

4. And then he brings in a blog as if this is some kind of reliable source and makes radical twisted statements that even the blog doesn't mention.

AC/Nefer Tweety says: "when it was time for her to choose between Syrian and Egyptian citizenships, as this source (http://ramsesthesecond.livejournal.com/32835.html) shows, she demanded a divorce a second time from Hassan and set on a road trip to Egypt to salvage her Egyptian citizenship."

This is what the blog says: "yet her marriage didn't last longer as she started having too much troubles with her husband which ended by divorce, Asmahan felt strong longing to artistic life after her first marriage ended so she returned to Cairo to restart her artistic career." "Asmahan got introduced personally to the director Ahmed Badrkhan and their relationship evolved quickly until they got married in the same year, yet their marriage was unstable and ended so soon after few months by divorce. by that time, Laws in Egypt didn't permit any citizen to have double natinalities, and when Asmahan was the princess of the mountain, she lost her Egyptian nationality, also her second marriage ended so rapidly that she couldn't gain back her Egyptian nationality"

and: "Yet Asmahan's situation didn't remain as good as it is and again she started having troubles with her husband which ended by divorce. Her money also ended and she found herself obliged to ask for more money from the English who refused to help her any more, and during this year, General Edward Spears admitted that Asmahan was helping the English side but she is a big mouth and alcoholic and that he stopped all relationship with her. Asmahan was in tight spot, between losing her throne again and the end of her money also the loss of the Egyptian nationality, so she had to wait for any chance which came true when she met the Egyptian actor Ahmed Salem and married him to move with him back to Cairo from Jerusalem where she was living after her divorce from prince Hassan."

The guy is a lier. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• Watch your spelling, it's "liar", not "lier". --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry Allegations

This thread was originally a response to this addition to the RfC; it was changed in this edit.

Your first edit on Misplaced Pages is commenting on an RfC? A rather suspicious start... I hope someone isn't puppeting... — HelloAnnyong 18:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Nefer Tweety is Arab Cowboys socpuppet, the same language bringing up the "15:48, 2 July 2009" that no one supports, talking about "Egyptian nationality needs to be in the lead" ... no doubt about it, its Arab Cowboys socpuppet.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"A suspicious start"? Why? I find it interesting to read the debates going on here about various topics. I never participated in one before, and I am not sure I will involve myself into this "edit warring". When I saw you opened RfC, and I read the options typed above, I thought of contributing by stating my opinion, and what I typed above was what I strongly supported from the very beginning. I was going to support either of the options anyway. If I had supported SD's point of view, would I have been considered SD's "socpuppet" by Arab Cowboy? What a disappointment! --Nefer Tweety (talk) 19:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong,

• that kind of reply would have been expecetd from SD, but you are proving your alliance with SD and your partiality. Your trend ALL ALONG has been to jump to conclusions without carefully examining the evidence. What a good 3O you make! You had stated that you did not want this section to be a continuation of the warring, yet you have done just that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Nefer_Tweety and http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/82.201.252.219

=

Arab Cowboys Soc puppets. Two accounts/ips, show up, both of them, first posts they ever make on wikipedia is to add a comment on this RfC. Using the exact same language and phrases as Arab Cowboy. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, you had no right to call me somebody's "socpuppet". Judging people that way is completely unacceptable. Did I have to support your point of view? Your comment gave me the impression that there are some personal issues between you and AC, and that your attempts to edit the article are not really for the sake of improving it (hope I am mistaken). That's why I have decided to again support what I previously stated in the RfC. So, think what you want! But I am telling you again, it is how you are thinking that is making me insist more on getting myself involved here. Why is it difficult for you to understand that there is always a "start" for everything! But you know what, you keep thinking you are surrounded by conspiracies, so I am not really surprised. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry Investigation Conclusions

•  Unrelated
  • Arab Cowboy (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • Nefer Tweety (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Identity section and other stuff

Wouldn't it help if we added an "Identity" section? Sherifa Zuhur discusses this at length in her book Asmahan's Secrets: Woman, War, and Song, pp.12-18. The pages are available online . This article is currently not in good shape, so I suggest to those who want to edit the article to use this book and other books to add information or correct and clarify existing information. The issue of her nationality is indeed an important one. Obviously she is Syrian (al-Atrash family), but she also lived much of her life in Egypt. I don't see a problem if in the lead we stated she was a Syrian-Egyptian or an Egyptian with Syrian origins. I will attempt to work on this article every now and then. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Al Ameer, 3O supported this version: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=299901100&oldid=299900516

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=299908041&oldid=299907400

Any editing you are doing must be based on that version. Or the original version before the edit war. Not Arab Cowboys twisted version where he is undermining everything Syrian about her even deleting the word "returned" and "hometown" when she returned to her hometown in Syria. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Al Ameer:

• 3O (HelloAnyong) does not support the version that SD alleges above. Here's how 3O Annyong has described SD's version:

"I'll agree that these edits (SD's edits) took it a little too far. But I've opened an RfC, so we'll see what other people say. — HelloAnnyong 15:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)"

and,

"Since you said that my latest edit, post cleanup is okay, I've updated the link in the RfC to this one. But now I think it's time to cool down, step away from this article for a bit, and let the opinions come in. — HelloAnnyong 16:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• I totally agree with Al Ameer: Asmahan's origins in Syria/Lebanon and her Egyptian nationality (i.e., Egyptian with Syrian-Lebanese origins) must be stated in the lead. Al-Ameer, not only did Asmahan live much of her life in Egypt, but she also became an Egyptian citizen, as supported by the reliable source (London newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi) in the article, and chose to be buried in Egypt. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash hardly ever sang in Syrian, page 240. Asmahan's adopted homeland was Egypt. When her marriage to her cousin failed, she did not remain in Syria, but returned home to Egypt immediately.
• The article is now in RfC, so everyone should refrain from editing the article until the RfC is concluded.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

"everyone should refrain from editing the article" so why is it that the article is not reverted back to before the edit war? So we can start from there? Why is it your own made up article that we must let be the default one?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

3O did indeed support the version I posted above, the one Arab Cowboy is quoting is another version. Any edit of the article must be based on the original article before the edit war or the evolutionized my version, which is based on the original version only that I have added references and re written some sentences, but the basic fact in my version is virtually the same as in the original. I have not twisted the facts as Arab Cowboy has. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

so you wish. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

So I wish? no, this is not what I wish, this is what 3O supports: "the talk page; i advocate that one" http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=299901100&oldid=299900516 ". I supported

That was before Annyong admitted that he was mistaken and had not seen your other edits within the article. He was referring only to the lead. He then changed his mind to this one. I will not speak for Annyong since he's still alive and kicking. He can speak for himself. But, regardless, what you call the "original" article is meaningless. I do not know or care to know what the so-called "original" article was. It contained no sources at all. The only thing that matters is the truth and facts supported by reliable sources. Asmahan and Farid were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin and their adopted homeland was Egypt. That's the only truth and you cannot change it no matter how hard you try. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

*facepalm* The last one I supported was this version. In the interest of keeping things calm here, I didn't support the three edits made by SD after that. — HelloAnnyong 14:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Voice characteristics

I've removed this section on a number of grounds. For one, it's entirely WP:OR. This isn't the place to reproduce or summarize Zuhur's writings, and certainly not in this length. Things like "Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak" have no place in this article. If you look at other featured class articles on singers, there is no section like this. It's pure WP:FANCRUFT meant to extol and glorify Asmahan. We're supposed to remain neutral here, and this section violated that. Phrases like "Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato" are anything but neutral. — HelloAnnyong 05:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

No objections here. I thought its was awkward but I wasn't bold enough to remove it ;) --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Text

Author Sherifa Zuhur has analyzed Asmahan's vocal contributions as well as providing all of the biographical details noted above. As Zuhur writes, Asmahan's voice ranged from the low contralto timbre all the way up to the upper Soprano range. This is demonstrated in the composition "Ya Tuyur" (O Birds, where her voice mimics a songbird) in which she reaches a high A with ease and brio. Asmahan was able to combine in her vocal abilities, the special characteristics of of three oriental divas' voices -- Fairuz, Umm Kulthum, and Sabah -- each quite different in tone, style and interpreation. Like Feiruz, she could render angelic tones, and she was able to use something close to the bel canto technique, among the first to adopt the western (old Italian school of singing) which contrasted to the the nasal and chest resonance technique that reigned in Arabic vocal style of the time. This was so, even though Asmahan's voice differs from Feiruz' in that she was really both a mezzo-contralto (alto) and a mezzo-soprano. Feiruz could reach high notes yet with less power than Asmahan. Asmahan showed a wide range of dynamics ranging from pianissimo to fortissimo from the bottom to the top of her range. Her voice also resembles Umm Kulthum's, not in timbre, but in the styling of those songs she performed which were written in "lawn tarab" -- or classical coloring. Finally, her vocal capacity was a bit like the singer Sabah, who had a powerful voice, and likewise utilized folk "coloring" and and who could "belt" out a song like a Broadway-style singer. Asmahan often showed phenomenally long breaths, both in long moving cadences, and where she held a high note for more than one minute.

Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak. On the other hand the head voice technique (typical of the Western classical and operatic singing) will eliminate any chest resonance so the voice will become too sweet or artificial and consequently lose all the power and dramatic capacities required for the oriental Tarab genre

Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato (the vocalization) as in the afore-mentioned " Ya Tuyur," by Mohamed El Qasabgi and in a light color of voice (reaching a high A=LA) then return to sing the medium notes and reach the low register with the typical Arabic (nasal+chest) technique. Besides the fact that she was the first Arabic singer to use the classical western technique, very few performers are able to alternate two opposed styles of interpretation and technique in one song.

Asmahan also displayed vocal agility -- an ability to switch between various musical notes in one musical sentence (like Fairuz) and she was a fast study, as noted by Zuhur.

Discussion

I'm not sure why Diaa posted this text here, but it's not getting in the article - at least, not in its current form. — HelloAnnyong 13:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong you answered the question. I posted it here and not on the article because in the current form it can't be posted there. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Refraining from editing for 2 days (lengthened for 5 days)

I propose refraining from editing for the next two days until I finish my edits to the article. I'll take into consideration all the critics and comments. After that we can discuss problematic sentences.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Best of luck. — HelloAnnyong 20:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

AC deleted sentences I had added when you gave me permission to freely edit the article, I re-added them.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The original statements will be readded and restructured so no repetition would occur.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I need more time with the article, plus Arab Cowboy is blocked anyway so it would be biased to edit while he can't touch the page.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 11:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

5 days is a long time, cant you make the edits you are working on then we can discuss them at the talkpage without editing further? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Five days is fine by me. Take all the time you need. — HelloAnnyong 13:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I meant three more days. Which isn't that long actually. I think there is still the Legacy and Death section which could be expanded tremendously. I'll try today to restructure. You could in the meantime expand the Death section. I'll go on vacation on the 16th till the 19th which of course would pose some problems.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

oh boy, maybe its best you don't do your edits until you come back from your vacation then. A strong mediator is needed to watch over the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

And what will happen to the page in the meantime? As long as you and Arab Cowboy keep level heads and don't start edit warring again, everything should be fine. — HelloAnnyong 14:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Although I have in the past been guilty of edit warring, I believe my intentions was good, at first to restore the original article from the falsification he implanted, and then later to keep the sourced and documented information I had added. I just hope he doesn't start anything while Diaa is on vacation. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness You could work on the Death section till as it won't pose edit conflicts anyway. Her Death was very controversial as I remember so enough sources should be somewhat available. Make yourself also familiar with {{Harvnb}} as it would be the best used here.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Source problems in Early Life

I'll list here any problems I find with the sources or the refferences in the Early life section. The section is crucial for her identity.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC):

• "The al-Atrash clan is a notorious Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s."

1. convert the reffs to use the {{citation}} template?
2. this is a teritary source (http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm) could u reff the book? it has a limited preview on google books that shows the page.
3. I can't find how it's described in the reffs as notorious. Could u please further explain that?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• The Al Atrash clan section is unreffed. I might have removed a reff when restructuring, but the reffs need to get back there. (might be "Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") but direct inline citation of those is needed for verifiability.
• "They finally arrived in Egypt where they were naturalized later on." ("Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") "This needs more details, I removed it for now though. Naturalization is easily research able as it is documented by official papers. "Later on" Should be specified.
• "Asmahan and her family were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens."(alquds.co.uk) same here.
• "Immigration to Egypt" section needs some reffs.

Diaa, thanks for your work on the article. For the purpose of academic integrity, we cannot attribute the "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." statement to Sherifa Zuhur. I had composed this introductory statement to the paragraph, and the facts in the paragraph, clearly and without exception, converge back to it. I am not in favor of starting paragraphs with a plunge into a series of facts with no common thought. I see that many of the sections in the article now need similar introductory statements. Just an element of style. Cheers, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa.

• This: http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm is put togheter by professor Joshua Landis who is an expert on Syrian politics and middle eastren history. The word "notorious" means known or well know, of course this can be changed to "famous" or something else, but the role of the Al-Atrash clan during the Syrian Revolution is will known. For example in the book (The Great Syrian Revolt) http://books.google.com/books?id=Ej8ZMk1822sC&pg=PA72&dq=sultan+al+atrash Sultan al-Atrash is on the cover and the Atrash name is mentioned on almost every page.

• The refs for the Atrash clan was there before and has been deleted, the refs are as following: Asmahan's Secrets,pp. 37-38 and 98 and Images of enchantment, pp.81

Yes could these be added inline? When u use page 37 it should be reffed there and not all pages at once.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems.

The question is when she did get the citizenship. That's the main issue, cause where would this fit in the article?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I noticed that you moved and kept this section, and also added "according to Shefa"Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely"

This is false, Shefa has not said this, the reference is on page 82-84 in Images of enchantment, there is nothing there saying this, this is written and made up by AC, If you want to keep this section you should replace the first line to "Accoring to Arab Cowboy"

And also this false statement AC implanted is still in the article "Asmahan had not actually lived in the Jabal in childhood; she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits."

This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s."

Nothing is said about that she never lived there.

In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment

The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I gave a shot at that, you can check the atrash clan section.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Closing the matter

Could supreme and Arab Cowboy propose a two paragraph Lead to be considered for the article. Information in the lead has to be reffed and available in the article body. That's why the body needed work before a lead can be created. Currently the fact that she's Egyptian isn't elaborated in the body. She lived in Egypt, had her musical debut there, had her career there, but if she's Egyptian or not isn't clear. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa,

Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited.

As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that this would be original research. Saying that there was no dual citizenship in Egypt, therefore she is Egyptian is Original Research which isn't allowed on Misplaced Pages. If you could create a paragraph that incorporates facts and dates saying when and how she became an Egyptian citizen I would agree to this. However in the article it isn't clear that she ever became one. So please state this below with proper references.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, this is not what I said. Please see below in new section created by yourself. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This newspaper is very controversial and shouldn't be a main source of her citizenship. This has to be stated in one of Zuhur books or any other books regarding Asmahan. According to http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html neither Asmahan nor her mother applied for the Egyptian citizenship. I therefore suggest to look for a direct source of her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa,

I do not see how the Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper could be "very controversial"; please clarify. Articles from established newspapers are considered reliable sources by Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, the statement in Sherifa Zuhur's book is not clear-cut and speaks only of a certain point in time. Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. I have also noted previously that Sherifa Zuhur took great liberties with statements in her book, such as labelling Nagat al-Saghira as Syrian, although both of her parents were Egyptian citizens (I can prove that to you later). Also, Zuhur has been challenged on many fronts, at least here.

Published books are not any more reliable than respectable newspaper articles. This has been proven at least once before when SD introduced a statement from a book citing Omar Sharif's birth in Greece, when in fact Omar Sharif's own autobiography states that he was born in Alexandria.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"Due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes and their perceived obedience to the U.S. & Israel, the paper has been censored and sometimes temporarily banned in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria." This is my main concern. It's banned in Egypt and Syria. Question is why this isn't stated in another source? I mean why her citizenship isn't stated in a reliable book or scholar source.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

You have answered your own concerns, the newspapers has been censored, etc., "due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes...," and not due to journalistic inaccuracy or unprofessionalism. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Arab Cowboy we have now two conflicting sources. One wrote three books about the subject, the other wrote a one page article in a newspaper. Both have been criticized about things not relating to the subject. One says she was naturalized, the other says she wasn't. Could u please find a reliable source that states that she was an Egyptian citizen? You can't put an analogy to the Omar Sherif case where both were books and one of them was weighed due to it being an autobiography.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, please take a long pause at the word "apparently" and the date in Zuhur's statement above. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is my answer to ACs post at the top:

"Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited. As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)"

Answer: Homeland is where you and your family come from. Now lets see what Asmahan thought where her homeland was: page 36 and 37 in Asmahans Secrets: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 This is direct copy from the sources: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin to the Amir al-Atrash and the Druze Revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"

On Page 36 in Asmahans Secrets it sais: "Quote: "Still, it was the Jabal Druze that imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her familys residences in Turky and Beirut"

On page 19 it says "Syrian homeland"

AC says "Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship."

Now this is very interesting, this is the exactly same thing Neefer Tewty said (surprise surprise) above and I have showed was false. Last post in this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Asmahan#Identity_Section --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought my question was addressed to Diaa, not SD. SD has stated the above gibberish over and over again. I am not interested in replying to it unless Diaa states that "homeland" is "on the table". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggested lead by Arab Cowboy

Asmahan (Template:Lang-ar Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt) was an Egyptian singer and actor belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood, she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

References

1. Newspaper Article al-Mada, "وشاءت لها الاقدار أن ترحل في الماء أيضا في حادث غامض في ترعة طلخا على نهر النيل قرب مدينة المنصورة يوم 14- 7 - 1944"
2. Newspaper Article by Abdel-Fadil Taha 2008-05-23 Al-Quds Al-Arabi, "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع"
3. Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320.

Suggested lead by -Supreme Deliciousness

Asmahan (Template:Lang-ar Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; November 18, 1918 – July 14, 1944) was a Syrian/Lebanese singer and actor. She was the sister of Farid al-Atrash, and a member of the al-Atrash clan, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.

(This last sentence can be rewritten so it wont be the same as in the rest of the article, and of course fell free to expand)

Sources for this is in the body text, I can ad it later if needed directly behind the sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is really funny! As if Asmahan never set foot in Egypt, became an Egyptian, adopted Egypt as her homeland, and did all her life's work in Egypt. As if this article is about "al-Atrash clan," and not about Asmahan and her contribution to Arab music, without which she would have been another obscure bedouin in the mountain! Good luck with that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"another obscure bedouin in the mountain" This is a racial attack against druze people. And there you are predicting the future again. As all sources show including quotes from Asmahans mouth, Syria was the only homeland she had. You are just spreading lies everywhere as we can see not only here but on other articles also: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I will not be drawn into the "homeland" debate unless I receive a greenlight from Diaa. And, no, I am not in business of predicting the future, because unlike you, I am not "Supreme Allah". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Preferred Lead

I prefer Arab Cowboy's lead, as it gives most of the important info about Asmahan. However I suggest using Syrian-Egyptian singer. She got the Egyptian citizenship, something that is agreed on by the two parties, and she's Syrian living her early life in Suwayda and being born to a Syrian father who was the governor of Suwayda. I'll add it to the article for further discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

We must not forget her mother, Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian ?

I question the relevance of having this in the lead, specially the authenticity of it,the source is a blog which I believe is against wikipedia rules:

"she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I will not object to your choice of a Syrian-Egyptian label, on the grounds of citizenship only, and not chosen identity. The rest of that sentence will have to be omitted. On these grounds, reference to her mother will have to come later in the body of the article. On the basis of chosen or actual identity, my originally proposed sentence should stand. Just a correction, sources have shown that she did not live her early life in Swaida and her father was not the governer of Swaida. See Zuhur, p. 36. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." Nothing is said about that she never lived there. In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I already corrected that sentence. No need to go back there again.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what is unclear abour Zuhur's statement: "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." This clearly means that not only did she not live there, but she did not even spend much time there at all! She only went there for "visits". Yes, they had a house in Swaida, that 'Alia stated was not her house, but her husband's, as they did in Lebanon and Turkey, where they actually lived in the early years of Asmahan's life. P. 38: "Alia never felt comfortable in the Jabal." P. 39: "...the Jabal, which was not her home, but her husband's." How is this not clear? Or, are we reinventing the wheel and the English language? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"This clearly means that not only did she not live there" - no it doesn't, it means that she didn't spend much time there, not that she didn't live there. you are twisting facts to fit your agenda. ""Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period." Yes Alias home was not the Jabal she was from Hasbyia in Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In terms of tone, I have a problem with the lead as it stands. The line "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." really has no actual meaning. It's not something that is discussed anywhere in the article. I would much prefer something that mentions how she was actually influential to Arab music. — HelloAnnyong 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Not only that but other sections are made up by Ac himself, this for example: "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought about removing it, but it chalks that up to Sherifa Zuhur. I've marked that with a fact tag until we can get a source there. Saying things like "undisputedly" is certainly WP:POV. — HelloAnnyong 22:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, there are still problems with the lead, this is sourced from a blog, which is against wikipedia rules: "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad." and also, what relevance is the nationality of some of the people she worked with to be in the lead of the article? This is the usual edits by AC to ad "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian citizenship

Arab Cowboy please create here a paragraph explaining how she got her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The only clear-cut statements about the sequence of Asmahan's citizenship(s) are found in a reliable source, London-based newspaper, Al-Quds Al-Arabi. The source states: "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع الي أن تزوجت من ابن عمها الأمير حسن الأطرش فاستعادت الجنسية السورية" which can be translated to "The whole (migrant) family were granted Egyptian citizenship and continued to enjoy it, including Asmahan of course, until she married her cousin Prince Hassan al-Atrash and regained her Syrian citizenship". Sherifa Zuhur states in Asmahan's Secrets, p. 118, that " instrcutions were to refrain from crossing the (Syrian) border illegally." One could only cross a border illegally if he/she was not a citizen of said country! Zuhur then states that Hassan would agree to allow Asmahan to cross the border only as his bride. The Al-Quds Al-Arabi article also states: "ثم التقت بعد طلاقها الثاني بالممثل والمخرج الفنان أحمد سالم في فلسطين وتزوجا وكانت رغبتها الأساسية استعادت الجنسية المصرية" which can be translated to "and after her second divorce, she met with actor and director Ahmed Salim in Palestine and they were married, and her primary objective was to regain her Egyptian citizenship."

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. "Apparently" expresses doubt or guessing. Zuhur does NOT state that Asmahan was NEVER naturalized. Note: According to Zuhur's footnote to that statement, 'Alia and her children did not qualify for Egyptian citizenship in 1929 because they had not been in Egypt long enough. Egyptian law requires 10 years of residency for naturalization. The Atrashes had arrived in 1923, so in 1929 they had been in Egypt for only 6 years. By contrast, the newspaper article casts no doubt about Asmahan's Egyptian citizenship. I also have other sources that speak of Asmahan's Egyptian nationality, but they MAY not meet Misplaced Pages's standards on reliable sources. According to this (arguably unreliable) source, "They got the Egyptian nationality in the beginning 30s." I must also emphasize what I have said before. Citizenship is only one source of identity for a given person. Other sources, besides lineage, are their choice of belonging, and, in a case like Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's, their contribution to the society in which they chose to live, i.e., their Egyptian Arabic singing portfolios. I think that spending any more time on this point would be an over-kill! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

The dates in the different sources conflict with one another on many issues and it is very difficult to pinpoint the sequence of events with accuracy. For example, one source states that her first marriage to Hassan occurred in 1933 (she was 15), while other sources state the marraige occurred in 1937 (at age 19); that her musical debut was at age 14 and her first Columbia Records album was agreed at age 16. The second sequence of events makes more sense; this is not original research. Most sources agree that she lived in Syria for a total of 6 years (some sources say only 3 years), which agrees more with the dates: from 1937 to 1939 or 1940, and then from 1941 to 1943 or 1944. Again, the "6 years split in two" scenario makes more sense; it is not original research.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"Makes more sense" is inherently original research. By evaluating what the sources say, you're drawing a conclusion that's not specifically stated there. — HelloAnnyong 14:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, why don't you come up with facts that are agreed by ALL the sources? There is none, and if we rely on those alone, we will have no article. "Makes more sense" does not mean original research, but means giving more weight to sources that provide the preponderence of evidence. Or, is it your job to only criticize, judge, and support statements misquoted from the sources? You have done no leg-work at all and your remarks just crowd this page unnecessarily! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I have just as much a right to speak up here as you do. In cases of conflicting data, the best way to handle it on Misplaced Pages is to mention that there are multiple possible stories, and mention both. If it happens to be that all sources say one thing and only one source says another, then the lone source can usually be tossed out as fringe. What's the count on the two differing theories? — HelloAnnyong 14:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not taking away your right to speak up here. But your last question makes my case! Why don't you do some homework and get us this count, as opposed to just act as judge? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Because I have neither the time nor the energy to work on this right now. You're the one who's already done all the research and has all the information. I'd urge you to assume good faith and realize that I'm just trying to make this page better than it currently is, and based on my current schedule, this is the only way I can do that. — HelloAnnyong 15:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, as you may recall, I assumed good faith in you when you were first invited to this discussion by SD. Unfortunately, your own actions proved me wrong. You supported SD's misquoting the sources, and his ridiculous sock-puppetry allegations. Moreover, you brought similarly unfounded allegations of your own and you were proven wrong. Why did you not assume good faith in User:Nefer Tweety? Your actions have stifled NT's voice on this page and probably elsewhere as they have expressed to you, and we may have lost NT for good. Have you apologized to NT since you were proven wrong? You state that you have neither the time nor energy to do research work, yet you find the time to judge, criticize, and waste my own time with your actions. Unfortunately, you have made no substantive contribution at all to this effort and have not made this page any better. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought we've turned a new leaf here and tried to move forward. That's what this is all about, moving forward. Can you maybe put aside our former issues and go from here? Let's also point out that you've driven Supreme Deliciousness away from here. I've moved past whatever happened before and am starting fresh. You and Diaa clearly know what's going on, and are more knowledgeable on the subject. But I'm still allowed to look at the text that is inserted - or will potentially be inserted - and comment on it. — HelloAnnyong 16:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will start fresh with you, Annyong, and will assume good faith one more time. I do not think I have driven SD away, although that would not be a bad thing. He's still harassing me on other articles, lol. Do you mind moving this distracting exchange away from this Talk page, to your Talk page or mine, as it serves no purpose here? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Just leave it, it's not a huge deal. I think it speaks to what has transpired on this page in the past. But the new conversation should start below. — HelloAnnyong 18:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

To clear things: Supreme Deliciousness wasn't driven off. He is currently a bit busy but will return later to reply to the questions and comments.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Frustration

Well, the matter is getting harder and I'm a bit frustrated. I lost track of the issues you currently have and would like some clear cut statements of what each party wants. I don't need proofs or discussions. State one sentence in the article that you want changed then place your suggested change. I'll review it and comment or add it. Please don't fight and don't comment on each other's suggestions. I hope to get this done before the weekend.

Arab Cowboy's suggestions

Supreme Deliciousness suggestions

Diaa, I thank you for your work and patience. You have helped a lot and I think we are done soon.

But some things have to be addressed.

• The first line in the article I want it to say she is Syrian-Lebanese. Her mother was lebanese, and there is no solid proof she got Egyptian citizenship and even if she did this happened a long time after she emigrated there, as proven above. And as have been showed many times the quote from Asmahans Secrets page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status"

Suggestion "was a Syrian-Lebanese singer and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan"

Sorry Supreme Deliciousness but we discussed this and there is no doubt that she got the Egyptian citizenship. You yourself said "The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems." so she did get naturalized... I will not debate this anymore. It has to be mentioned in the lead. Syrian-Lebanese is doubtful as there is no proof that she got the Lebanese citizenship. There is proof that she regained the Syrian citizenship, so SD she is Syrian-Egyptian or "Syrian Singer who had her entire career in Egypt and was naturalized there".--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• I would also like this expanded to the Farid al-Atrash article, a man born in Syria, to Syrian-Lebanese parents.

So it says: "Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Lebanese composer, singer, virtuoso oud player, and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan.

Same here, he got the Egyptian citizenship. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad."

This I want deleted, the source for this was a blog, There is no evidence she was the apprentice for these, and I also question the importance of adding the nationality of some of the people she might have worked with in in the lead of the article, this is the usual edits by AC to put the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."

This I want deleted, Sherifa has not said this, this is guessing by AC himself and has no place in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. "

Must be deleted, has nothing to do in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Asmahan only remembered this period as happy and carefree childhood. She spent most early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits.""

This is not following what the source is saying which is: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut"

My suggestion to the article: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in Suweida, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was what she saw as her "home" rather then Lebanon or Turkey"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to go to Syria"

In the WW2 section, a very important trigger word was deleted by AC, I want this word returned to the article so it says: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to return to Syria"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul"

Popular? this should be deleted. What relevance is it if he is popular or not? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong's suggestions

Don't know why I didn't get a section here, but here's my take.

• "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." - This line needs to go. Aside from being wholly unsourced and not covered by the text in the article, it's just not particularly relevant. And for someone who has no idea who Umm Kulthum is, it means nothing.
• There should be a line or two about how she contributed to Arab music. The lead should mention why she was notable, and being the apprentice of some guys and singing in competitions doesn't really make me think that she's all that important. But she clearly is important (at least, enough to keep two editors battling about her for months) so there should be something that points out why she was so notable.

Just my take on this. — HelloAnnyong 12:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class Lebanon articles
• Mid-importance Lebanon articles
• WikiProject Lebanon articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Actors and filmmakers work group articles
• Start-Class biography (musicians) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (musicians) articles
• Musicians work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Unassessed Egypt articles
• Unknown-importance Egypt articles
• WikiProject Egypt articles
• Start-Class Syria articles
• Mid-importance Syria articles
• WikiProject Syria articles