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References (please keep at bottom)

Consensus requirements should not apply here

Consensus requirements should not apply here, since any non-TM organization POV are consistently overruled out by intervention of Transcendental Meditation hardliners, promoters and TM Org members.

This is is very similar situation to the Scientology entries issue. Furthermore, known TM Org URL's should be blocked, as should IP's of biased TM promoters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BettyBrahman (talk • contribs) 19:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Betty. In actual fact many of the recent additions to the TM article were added by editors obviously not supportive of TM. I suggest that you might want to recheck the recent discussions if you want to have an accurate picture of what goes on here. I notice you haven't edited here since 2007. Much has changed since then. Consensus is a critical part of the decision making process on any Misplaced Pages article and is in effect here. Thanks (olive (talk) 19:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

Hi Littleolive oil and thank you for your concerns. You are correct I haven't edited here in a while. However I have observed this entry since it's beginning and have observed a number of disturbing trends across time, an almost cult-like adherence to Transcendental Meditation POV used in their marketing of their products (TM being merely one of their many products) and a concerted effort to edit or revert non-TM Org POV. This has disturbed me since clearly such biased POV and calculated attempts at editing and/or reverting other contributors is not only wiki-vandalism but a clear affront to the spirit of the Misplaced Pages. Recent similar examples include the Scientology organization and their attempts at controlling certain entries. While time prohibits a full delineation of the activities that are going on under numerous TM-related entries, rest assured such activities have been noted by a number of users. Just because non-TM followers are in the minority here is no reason users like myself should be prevented from posting relevant information which improves the Misplaced Pages. --BettyBrahman (talk) 21:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Betty. I missed your above post in the last days and had posted something below as a kind of update. I did want to specifically address some of your points myself, but apologize if any of these points are redundant. The fact that you haven't been editing is certainly not a criticism in any way but simply a suggestion to check the archives for information since I believe things have changed here in the past few years. If you find material you believe is POV, I would strongly suggest you post here, so it can be discussed and if POV, removed. POV either for or against TM is not accepted as Misplaced Pages Neutral Point of View information. Any opportunity to dig POV material out of the article is excellent. I want to make sure we are defining POV in the same way. WP:POV means as I understand it, material that the editor enters into the article and is his/her opinion. This POV is not sourced, referenced, material that supports TM for example or alternately doesn't support TM. Our job as editors is to write an article that reflects how TM is viewed and understood in the mainstream press and literature, giving priority to majority views and less emphasis to less notable positions... to the point of probably not entering tiny fringe points. Checking the Google news archives is one good way of doing that. We also don't have to add our opinions and can leave it up to the reader to come to conclusions about the technique themselves. That's writing for an encyclopedia which is different than original research WP:OR or synthesis of material. And of course whatever we have to say about the writing of the topic, our personal opinions, can be stated on the talk page to a certain extent, but shouldn't be used in the article. I think I understand what you mean by Wiki vandalism , but Misplaced Pages:Vandalism is probably defined differently. Thanks. Working together as Kbob says below I'm sure we can identify and remove any POV material.(olive (talk) 19:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC))

Hello Betty and welcome to the article. I am sorry but I have reversed your additions. However I am happy to discuss them here on the talk page with you. Wiki as you know is a collaborative effort and a team of editors have been diligently working on this article for some time. Please join us in an intelligent discussion and concerted effort to improve this article. You have cited a valid research study however you also added several sentences exhibiting point of view WP:POV and original research WP:OR both of which are disallowed on Wiki. Please click on the links so you can read the Wiki guidelines concerning these topics and then you will understand more about why I have reverted your additions. I think together we can find a proper location and wording so that this research study you have referenced can be included in the article in a neutral fashion and with appropriate weight WP:WEIGHT and in proper context. One last point is that Wiki guidelines also prohibit personal attacks and accusations about other editors, so please consider this policy as well WP:NPA. In a nutshell what the policy states is that we should discuss only the article and avoid making conclusions, accusations or comments about other editors. I hope this information is helpful and that we can work together with all the editors to continue to improve this Wiki article. Best Wishes, --Kbob (talk) 20:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Keithbob! I'll be glad to discuss them as I make some appropriate additions over the next couple of weeks. Clearly there is a need for improvement in this article as it is horrendously biased in it's current state. Unfortunately I'm afraid rectification of the inadequacies here may be difficult given the long, on-going edit-battles that have been waged here for years. It is my hope that I can improve the quality of the article and present some views which are currently disallowed by the on-going state of TM Org bias. --BettyBrahman (talk) 21:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Betty, I'm glad that you will be working on the article. Please keep in my that Wiki is about neutrality and no point of view and working together as a community of editors. It is not about any single person's agenda whether it be pro or con Transcendental Meditation. This kind of understanding and attitude is most helpful when working on Wiki articles. Peace! --Kbob (talk) 11:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

You know, apart from the research section - and one section which I don't understand at the moment but which I shall comment on in a sec - the article is not (at least once more) not the "pro" TM. Research section still needs looking at though. The7thdr (talk) 23:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Transcendental Meditation teaching centers

I is confused, what does anything in this section have to do with the sections title as it has now been re-edited?

I quote:

Beginning in 1968 a number of well known musicians and celebrities, such as Donovan, members of The Beatles and The Beach Boys as well as Clint Eastwood, Deepak Chopra and Andy Kaufman, reported using the technique. In 1975, enthusiastic meditator Merv Griffin invited the Maharishi to appear on his highly rated talk show, thereby aiding Transcendental Meditation in becoming a “full blown craze” during that era (according to Time Magazine) and eventually becoming a global phenomenon with centers in some 130 countries. In that same year the Maharishi began teaching advanced mental techniques, called the TM-Sidhi Program, that included a technique for the development of what he termed Yogic Flying. 23:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)The7thdr (talk)

Nothing... sheesh... give me a few days and I'll fix it ....good catch.(olive (talk) 18:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC))

Yes, good eye, 7th. Not sure how that happened. There is a similar section in the Maharishi article and its called Popularity so for the time being I have given the section that same title.--Kbob (talk) 18:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Very good Kbobb. I think the title "Popularity works very well here. Bigweeboy (talk) 00:44 , 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It is a miss-match, of popular history and "real history". As a general popular history I am afraid it is completely incorrectly weighed only towards positive, none controversial history. Reading this, seems that everyone loves TM and that the "Sexy Sadie ", incident, etc never happened. This needs reworking and correct weight being applied.If a ref to popular history such as the "the Beatles loved TM" then incidents such as the "falling-out" need to be included. Looks like an extract from a TM brochure at the moment. I did suggest this was likely prior to this section being added. The7thdr (talk) 19:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Tag

The tags added in the last few days have been added without foundation. This article is not untended and is under close scrutiny and any sources that are seen by the editors here as being weak can be adjusted and changed. In other words please specify the source that is a concern rather than add tags to the article. (Copied comment TM-Sidhi article).(olive (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC))

I'm guessing the David Orme-Johnson refs - from his website. And to be honest would agree, but have said this before. Would be nice if the person adding the tags clarified however.The7thdr (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Since I'm still fairly new to Wiki, can someone briefly explain "Tags" and why there is a concern here? Thanks, Bigweeboy (talk) 17:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.228.104 (talk)

We are talking about the banner at the top of the article.--Kbob (talk) 12:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Popularity Section

I think 7th is right that the section title "Popularity" has a bit of POV to it. At the same time I also don't think the title History accurately reflects the content there. Does anyone have title to propose that would be more neutral and at the same time accurately reflect the content in the section? Or how about if we do away with all the subsections under History and just list the items by date of occurrence? --Kbob (talk) 12:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I notice that the events in the History section are already in chrono order. So it would be easy to take out the various sub section headings. Many of these sub headings consist of only one or two sentences. Do we really need them?--Kbob (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the "History" section could be improved. As it stands, there is a hodge-podge of different topics there. Even the chronological order could be better. For example, the information about the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in 1959 should come before the sentence about what Maharishi did in the early 1970's. Regarding other titles for this section, the words I can think of are: Expansion, development, evolution and progression. In my opinion progression is the most neutral of these. --Little Flower Eagle (talk) 20:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I like this title suggestion Flower. Bigweeboy (talk) 15:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm listening to Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart Concerto cycle to be in a "difficult mood" so please don't think I am being so :-). It was me that put in the subheadings as previously it was a little "confusing". Although I admit it was without gaining agreement first there was no objections and I think it was felt it worked. It also tends to fit in with the general structure of the article. The7thdr (talk) 18:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks 7th.I can't do much right now but I'd like to look at the additions carefully in a couple of weeks when I return home.(olive (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

7th I think you have created a bit of imbalance in the popularity section. You seem to have quoted a number of people who did not have a positive experience with TM ...are you going to now find a bunch of people who had positive experiences and quote them? --Uncreated (talk) 23:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

TM Movement

Re KeithBob's deletions of the stuff I added (Forgot to log in) - if you search for "TM Movement" you get thousands of hits on Google, and hundreds on Google News, Google Books and Google Scholar. Even the official TM.org website describes the "Transcendental Meditation Movement" So, I don't think you can delete this on the basis that there ain't no such thing - even the TM Movement says there's a TM Movement. And it's certainly relevant to the article. And, it is reliably sourced.Fladrif (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fladriff, Sorry I deleted your sentence without saying anything. You didn't sign in so I just thought it was a drive by edit. Anyhow my position is that the lede is an introduction and summary and is not the place for a detailed discussion of servicemarks. Also the copy that is there now specifically mentions the legal entity that owns the servicemarks and trademarks. The term 'Transcendental Meditation movement' is not a legal entity and has no standing as a company or organization and has not clear accepted definition. It is a slang term and any term or combination of words can be a search term on Google. Pick any two words. How about 'car meditation'? Do a search on Google for these two words and you get 5 million hits. So this does not validate a term and make it relevant to this article. What do others think?--Kbob (talk) 02:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that the "Transcendental Meditation movement" what be a good topic for a separate article. It could cover some of the organizational issues that aren't quite on topic in other articles like this one.   Will Beback  talk  03:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The official TM sites repeatedly use the term "Transcendental Meditation Movement", so I'm puzzled and perplexed by the argument being made here. In addition, the Google hits I cited are for the phrase, not for the individual words - and they're real hits. I take it that the "preferred" term among the TM insiders is TMO, or "TM organization", though perhaps only among other insiders. My impression is that it would be nearly impossible for anyone to reliably source what legal entity in the TM orgainization does what (see the discussion on the TM Sidhi Programs sparked by olive's comment re who teaches what course). TM Movement or TM Organization is a handy shorthand that is consistent with how the movement/organization/whatever is described in the press, in books, and in the organization's own promotional materials. And, this insert is appropriate to the lede, because the term "TM" is used to mean a number of things: the technique, the "science", the organization. TM the technique is just one of the many things that TM the organization teaches. Fladrif (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Kbob is right. Transcendental Meditation movement is slang for the whole range of trademarked aspects of the organization. This is the official site and also lists links to other sites and I don't see the term Transcendental Mediation Movement used anywhere. I could be missing it. The term Transcendental Meditation is used to mean the technique only...it is a form of mediation. The official website also uses the terms Transcendental Meditation Program to define the follow-up, support aspects that are offered after the technique itself has been taught. Notice also in the article referenced in the lede that the person speaking uses the term Transcendental Mediation movement, and movement is not capitalized. This means that the phrase is not a proper noun, but is descriptive. So this means we can't then take that descriptive phrase and use it as if it was a proper noun in our lede. What we are saying is just not really accurate. I think we really have delineate slang from the official usage in order to create an article that is very clear in terms of defining the topic/subject accurately

I do see the problem though. What do we call the so-called "organization"? I think we first have to go with what's on the official sites, with what the organization calls itself. Do we have that information?(olive (talk) 19:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC))

The usual standard for naming things on Misplaced Pages is to use the most popular name, not the most "official" name. In the little research I've done on this topic, I've also come across "TM movement". I think there are sufficient sources for an article, and I think that it would help the article here by splitting the organization and meditiative issues.   Will Beback  talk  19:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

In the lede we have to define correctly. If we want to use something that is slang, and not accurate then we clearly attribute it in the text to a source or sources, and it doesn't belong in a lede. I think its fine to include the information Fladrif did. I'd like it to be accurate. Can we do that?

The different aspects of the organization have already been split off from this article. This article is clearly about the TM technique.(olive (talk))

I don't think "slang" is an accurate description. The obit for the Maharishi in the Los Angeles Times begins, "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the founder of the Transcendental Meditation movement..." The term is used in over 400 books, according to Google. There are still significant amounts of material related to the movement in this article, including sections on the cult issues, the lawsuits, etc. Further, an article on the organizational aspects could explain the relationships between the various entities, which now only appear in the template with little or no indication of the connections.   Will Beback  talk  20:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly so. Even the official TM web pages call it the "TM Movement": "His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is the founder of the world wide Transcendental Meditation Movement." "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, founder of the worldwide Transcendental Meditation Movement,...""The Transcendental Meditation movement started simply and grew steadily." This article is definitely about more than just the TM technique, and we are certainly not bound to confine this article to the way that the TM Org/Movement/whatever wants to market its product, which is, quite explicitly, to try to gain mainstream acceptance of TM by trying to separate the TM technique from the woo woo aspects of the TM "science" and the TM organization. I'd like to say more about the organization in this article, but I'm quite frankly finding a hard time locating independent, secondary sources on the details. Near as I can figure out, the organization now is under the overall umbrella of the Global Country of World Peace, overseen by an Maharaja appointed by MMY, with 27 Rajas and 8 Purusha Rajas, 12 Global Ministers and a prime minister, and then, in each country, a national director and 12 directors, with the pattern repeated at the state and city level. There are also similary organizations for the Purusha and Mother Divine programs, and also something called Vedic Pandits. In keeping with the theme of the organization being a "government", everyone certified to teach TM is called a "Governor". The organization is trying to establish "Peace Palaces" as well as "Invincibility Centers" But, what exactly any of this bureaucracy actually does, and how the various corporations, such as the Maharishi Foundation, MVED, MUM, etc....fit into the overall organization is yet more difficult to pin down.Fladrif (talk) 11:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Fladrfi. In talking to people associated with the TM org they said quite explicitly there is no TM Movement. However, if official sites are using the term then I think we can as well. It is unclear to me as well just what the responsibilities of these different "organizations" are responsible for. My sense is that TM movement is a general overarching term used for the general public, that there is a trademarking section of the organization that is more of a legal entity, and that there is as you said above, a system inside the organization that works with the actual teaching. At any rate I am OK with the sentence in the lede since we now have a source that defines as the organization defines itself(olive (talk) 15:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC))

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi began using the terms "the Movement" and "our Movement" very early on, during the Spiritual Regeneration Movement (SRM) days, starting in the late 1950s when it was clear that the new concept of effortless enlightenment was igniting a huge popular interest. The word "movement" expressed the spontaneous nature of this explosive growth, as well as an implication that this organization belonged to everyone. Maharishi was fond of saying, "the Movement belongs to those who move."

Many years have passed, and (IMO) the leadership of the TM Movement has become somewhat rigid, adhering to the formulaic dicta "given out" by Maharishi, even when they cannot give a good rationale for them (a few examples of many: the high course fees, building a flamboyant, tall building in each country, and reconstructing all houses so their entrances point exactly to the East).

Yet, In spite of this rigidity, the Movement is still quite alive. And anyone can still play a major role. The filmmaker David Lynch, for example, is responsible for sponsoring the incredibly successful Quiet Time project in U.S. schools (Quiet Time in the Classroom) on the basis of his sincere advocacy and the donation of large amounts of money from his eponymous Foundation.

Although the term "the TM Movement" originated with Maharishi and his followers, it was readily adopted by journalists writing about the phenomenon of TM in the 1960s and 1970s. I'm sure there are plenty of authoritative references to be had among the many early TM articles published in national and local magazines and newspapers. David spector (talk) 21:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The lede reads "The Transcendental Meditation technique is one of sixty products and courses offered by the Transcendental Meditation movement." But is not the "Transcendental Meditation movement" that is offering these courses. It is specific teaching organizations that do so. Therefore, I think that this sentence should be removed from the lede. Bigweeboy (talk) 15:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Who teaches TM? The sentence you're referring to cited to a reliable source quoting a TM teacher.   Will Beback  talk  16:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Use of the term seems to have become overarching, generalized terminology to simplify understanding for the general public. Using such a general term in the lede of the article weakens the article because it lacks specificity, and in the context of this article creates confusion seems to me, but Will is right, it is reliably sourced, and so it is acceptable to use it. If there was a consensus to use more specific and accurate wording that would be good , but I don't see any sources that specify a name for the specific section of the organization that is responsible for teaching. Anyone have that information?(olive (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC))

Fair enough Olive. I accept the sentence in the lede as is. Bigweeboy (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

If it is properly sourced, the term is fine by me. --Luke Warmwater101 (talk) 03:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I like Will's idea of there being a separate article for the TM Movement/organisation.--Uncreated (talk) 20:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Purusha and Mother Divine

Should this really be in the article on Transcendental Meditation? It is a very fringe program of the TM organisation and surely does not deserve the attention is it given in this article on Transcendental Meditation. There is probably a lot of information available about the program that is appropriately sourced but I would think it deserves its own Article rather than be wedged into the TM Article. If there are editors who feel it should be mentioned because of its association with the TM Org which teaches TM I would point out there are numerable other programs which are far more popular and well known than the Purusha and Mother Divine program that should be given the space that is now dedicated to the Purusha and Mother Divine section. --Uncreated (talk) 20:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think uncreated brings up a good point. As stated in the lede, there are 61 programs and courses related to TM. Obviously we cannot put a paragraph for all of these programs in the TM article and so in the past we have created separate articles for these programs ie. TM-Sidhi, Global Country of World Peace, Maharishi Ayurveda and so on. Why are we making an exception for Mother Divine and Purusha programs?--Kbob (talk) 21:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This is another reason to have a "TM movement" article - it could include descriptions of the relatively minor programs that don't merit articles of their own.   Will Beback  talk  21:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we could create 2 articles: one on Purusha, another on Mother Divine. Bigweeboy (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

While we are discussing the validity of the sections inclusion in this article. I removed the phrase "described as monasteries" because it is not supported by the citation. The source (which is about a toilet invention, yikes!) gives TM related data, but does not mention the Purusha or Mother Divine programs. Quotes from the source article(which is about a toilet invention, yikes!) gives the following 'TM related data, but does not mention the Purusha or Mother Divine programs:

• He moved on to North Carolina in 1996 for a life of quiet introspection and progressive bowel movements, working as a computer programmer at the Heavenly Mountain Resort.
• Isbit said that beyond the discovery of transcendental meditation, his time at Yale was "rather uneventful."

I would support moving the Mother Divine and Purusha programs elsewhere. I as I said above, the "History" section of this article seems quite disjointed and consists of a string of seemingly unrelated paragraphs. Would it be more appropriate for this article to include a list of the biggest or most significant programs? Then people could investigate further if they are interested. --Little Flower Eagle (talk) 22:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that this article would be best focused on the meditation technique, and organizational aspects should be moved to another article.   Will Beback  talk  22:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree.--Uncreated (talk) 22:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree; although if it is to be included here I think in the Relgion section - as it does seem to support the idea that TM is a religion The7thdr (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

As shown above there is strong consensus that the Purusha and Mother Divine section is not appropriate for this TM article. So I have removed it and pasted it below in case it is needed for a future article. --Kbob (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it is very good that you have remove the Mother Divine/Purusha section Kbobb. You paragraph can be used in other articles, as you suggest. Bigweeboy (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• Among the advanced programs offered by the TM organization are the Purusha and Mother Divine programs, long-term residential programs involving a lifestyle of celibacy and meditation.. In the US, separate campuses of the Purusha and Mother Divine programs were formerly located outside Boone, NC, adjacent to the Maharishi Spiritual Center of America. As of 2002, the Purusha program for men and the Mother Divine program for women involved 310 men and 100 women respectively, on separate campuses. The Purusha and Mother Divine programs involve daily 4 1/2 hour meditation sessions in the morning, fundraising or work for the nonprofit entities associated with the Spiritual Center in the afternoons, and then group meditation in the evening. Both programs also include reading and study of Vedic literature, and instruction in Sanskrit and Vedic science. While participation in the Purusha or Mother Divine programs requires a minimum 3-month commitment, many participants have been part of this program for 20 years or more. In 2004 the campuses were moved to Fairfield, Iowa.

We do have multiple topics pending on this and other related articles so might be good to finish those before jumping into discussion on a new article.(olive (talk) 22:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC))

Creating a New Article

I think the best way to proceed would be to create another article and move this info over to it. I agree with Will, the article on Transcendental Meditation should focus on the technique and other information that deals with the Organisation of Transcendental Meditation and its other programs should be moved to a new Article. I have no idea how to create a new Article...maybe Will you could do so? --Uncreated (talk) 23:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with the idea of creating a "Misc TM" article where we place all the various TM related programs. The procedure on Wiki is to create articles on specific topics if they are notable, not to create a catch all article for a collection of items that don't stand on their own.--Kbob (talk) 02:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The TM movement is quite notable and there are many book and articles that talk about it. It'd certinaly make more sense to have itmes like this in an article like that rather than treating this as the de facto "misc" article. The meditation technique is a large enough topic so that this article should focus on it alone.   Will Beback  talk  03:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Will I agree, that these misc. items don't belong in this article on TM. But I'm also not sure its useful to have a collection of small, random topics in a separate article either. I am in favor of the TM article retaining its own integrity and other notable programs also have their own article. If the topic of the "TM Movement" can be shown to be notable with reliable sources than of course it can have its own article just like any other article topic but it shouldn't created as a place for a collection of items that are not notable enough to stand on their own.--Kbob (talk) 11:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thats a fair point Kbob.--Uncreated (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Kbobb. If a new article were to be created under the title of "TM Movement" it would be a mish-mash of disjoined items that are not notable in their own right. I feel that while "TM Movement" may be used in common parlance, it is not an actual organization, entity, establishment, or club. Better to have the more notable topics have their own article, if they even warrant that. Bigweeboy (talk) 14:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Uncreated and Will, the TM movement is highly notable and needs/warrants it's own entry. If this is not to be the case than I would recommend that this article must by default include all such information. There is no TM technique without the Tm Movement.Could I also point out that this article was originally about the "Movement" and not the "technique". looking through the history of this article this is apparent and the focus was changed without agreement originally by TG.it can either be one or the other I am afraid. To see how this is handled in other religions one only needs to read the entries on Buddhism Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, etc. It is clear form the movements founder that principles upon which TM "works" are deeply religious and philosophical. This needs to be noted in WIKI. That TM is also the first part of a greater "program" to influence @reality" via paranormal/occult/spiritual means supports this contention —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr (talk • contribs) 18:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

We do have multiple topics pending on this and other related articles so might be good to finish those before jumping into discussion on a new article.

I am not in favour of creating an article on TM Movement or movement until we clearly delineate what the term means or is. We have MVEDC, and we have Global Country of World Peace. MVEDC seems to be a licensing organization. Is it also in charge of teaching? Global Country of World Peace seems to be the governing organizing body. What then is "TM movement"? We have to be able to clearly define the topic/subject matter otherwise we risk creating a kind of a dumping ground for bits and pieces of information.(olive (talk) 22:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC))

John Lennon and Sexy Sadie

I have no problem with the sentence below as it specified by the source that is cited:

• John Lennon “fell out” with the Maharishi and wrote the song “Sexie Sadie” about his allegedly materialistic ways..

7th Door then found a reference for lyrics to the song Sexy Sadie and added this sentence:

• The song begins with the lines:"Sexy Sadie what have you done.You made a fool of everyone."

However, isn't this original research on our part? Making the judgment that these specific lines from the song illustrate the Maharishi's "allegedly materialistic ways"? To be objective wouldn't we need to print all the lyrics and let the reader decide? It seems to me to be personal interpretation to select any particular part of the song lyrics. What do others think? --Kbob (talk) 01:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You might be right Kbobb. Perhaps there are secondary sources that can be used. Bigweeboy (talk) 14:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Making the judgment that these specific lines from the song illustrate the Maharishi's "allegedly materialistic ways

Not at all, this is the conclusion drawn in the original article - not original research on my behalf. Indeed, it was you Kbob that altered the sentence to reflect this fact :-)

Note that prior to you adding this i have already removed it on the basis stated in the edit. But happy to discuss if you wish to add it back —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr (talk • contribs) 18:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Celebrity Quotes

I would also like to remove this sentence (below) which uses a personal web site ] as a citation:

• Of his experience with TM, Kurt Vonnegut said; "I tried that (TM). It gave me a terrible headache (Laughs)" --Kbob (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is also this sentence quoting Ozzie Osborne in the article:

• “Ozzy Osbourne thought it was a waste of time, saying "I tried TM but gave it up and smoked a joint instead."

This Ozzy sentence has a valid source however to be fair shouldn’t we also include quotes from the members of the Beatles, Mike Love, Deepak, Andy Kaufman, Shirley Mclain etc., if they can be found and reliably sourced? Or do we just want to remove all these quotes? --Kbob (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that we should probably avoid adding people who made negative remakrs about their experience, since including their name is an implied endorsement. Or, we can segregate them with a comment like, "People who tried TM but stopped include:"   Will Beback  talk  03:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think all the fuss about what celeb learned TM and found it good or bad is a waste of time. Perhaps it might to best to focus on the scientific results than what some celeb says? Bigweeboy (talk) 14:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

We may not like it, but this is a celebrity-focused world. The involvement of celebrities in TM probably did more to promote it adoption than all of the scientific studies combined. Both deserve space in the article.   Will Beback  talk  18:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This what i said before the "popularity section was added - but it was ignored. Now it is in place I think it makes interesting reading. Like it or I do have to sadly agree with WILL. Whether, "we" like it or not, celebrity is important. Indeed, it was the TM authors of this piece that argued this section be added. It is now a little late to complain about something which TM argued to include, when it appears that many of the celebrities (especially the dead ones) its website and promotional material is so keen to suggest endorsed the technique may have actually had a very different view

keithbob: it is a "personal website" from an expert in his field - just as OJ is. (Actually, it's an authors page a much different thing but hey, I'll play along if you want). It was included, so the reader could actually read the full interview. However, if you wish to cite a published source for the same interview - you are obviously unaware of the author - you could cite the following just as easily: Conversations with Kurt Vonnegut: By Kurt Vonnegut, William Rodney Allen. Where the full text is also included. Alas, not all of it is available to GoogleBooks preview. The7thdr (talk) 19:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

1. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+site:tm.org+%22Transcendental+Meditation+Movement%22&ei=WP1cSpqjIuaGmQf-u5XkDQ&sa=X&oi=smap&resnum=1&ct=more-results
2. Cite error: The named reference Treadwell was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. "Hindu Families and Communities", Encyclopedia of Appalachia, University of Tennessee Press ISBN 1-57233-456-8 (2008)
4. Re Maharishi Spiritual Center of America, NC Court of Appeals No. COA01-644, (August 20, 2002)
5. Reagan, Jason, "Spiritual Center tells TM residents to vacate", Wautuga Democrat (June 9, 2004)
6. Cite error: The named reference independent.co.uk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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