Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:53, 29 July 2009

• WT:NPOV

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

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UNDUE

At least once a day and usually more often, I see UNDUE cited by editors to justify removing material they simply don't like. Because they don't like it (or, often, because they've never heard of it), it jumps out at them as UNDUE, but that's simply a result of their own POV or lack of knowledge. I'm not sure what we can do about this, but it's so prevalent, and such a misuse of this policy, that it's worth raising to see whether we can tweak the wording to reduce the chances of it being abused in this way. SlimVirgin 01:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Obviously I don't want to turn this into a rehash of any specific content dispute, but would it be possible to give 1 or 2 examples of the problem you're seeing? It might be useful in terms of deciding what, if any, policy changes would address the issue. MastCell  17:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with SlimVirgin. This is not using policies in the spirit of how they were meant or perhaps someone is under the impression that their view is more in the majority than it actually is (systematic bias). Quoting from the text (emphasis added):

• In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.
• In articles specifically on the minority viewpoint, the views are allowed to receive more attention and space; however, on such pages, though the minority view may (and usually should) be described, possibly at length, the article should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.

The "support" in this case is generally tribes and communities secluded from the rest of the world. In this case it is simply a fact for them and to be quite frank they really don't care as it makes no impact on their lives one way or another. I think we can agree that everybody who reads it is educated enough not to hold a different view so there's not any real problem there. Anybody who continually tries to "push" a view that the earth is not flat would just antagonise me as that is NOT the information I am looking for in an article on the flat earth.

But then we get to the more contentious articles. I think the "allowed" should be changed to "should" first of all. Then the second paragraph I quoted is ambiguous and contradictory. It's simply not possible to properly deal with an article if someone feels they have to continually state that it is the minority view. More than that it's quite easy, as I already said, for someone to thik their view is more prevalant than it actually is.

Then there's the problem of how to deal with articles of a scientific nature. Some think that only the scientific opinion is valid, I disagree. Some issues are as much in the public realm as they are in the scientific and if the public opinion varies much from the scientific one an article should state so or it can't be claimed as expressing a neutral view. More than that is the issue of what happens if the public lose faith completely in the scientists. Should everybody continue to insist that the scientific view is the only relevant one? That's not neutral, it's bias. Unfortunately the nature of wikipedia makes it unable to be unbiased. The US is NOT the world and consequently the opinion of the US scientists or groups of scientists for that matter is not the only opinion that exists. If scientists start setting up conditions to exclude other scientists and only include themselves somebody has to play the referee and the only one that makes sense is public opinion. Biofase | stalk  19:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The section n Pseudoscience has been part of policy since the day this became policy. It was spun off to a sub-policy for a while, but recently remerged as part of a reworking of the sub-policy. Much of it is still identical to then. So, yes, science is privileged; otherwise, we would not be writing anything that could reasonably be called an encyclopedia. Britannica does not present evolution as a lie by Satan, and neither do we. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 01:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Peh. Translated from User:SlimVirgin-speak to normal language: She's upset that her ideas of what undue weight means contradict with the vast majority of other editors, including the Arbitration Committee's rulings on pseudoscience and the paranormal, so she sticks her fingers in her ears and claims nobody but her understands what undue weights means, and the problem couldn't possibly be her so she wants to change policy to reflect her rather skewed ideas. See, for instance, her complaints over on Talk:Ian Stevenson where she claimed that the term "pseudoscience" is "meaningless" and that only "ignorant" people use it... despite the fact that plenty of reliable sources use it and ArbCom specifically stated outright that the term is appropriate when cited. Nothing to see here except an editor grasping at straws to try to push her already soundly rejected views onto the project. DreamGuy (talk) 00:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not an inappropriate venue for criticising or attacking another edtior, Dreamguy; I highly recommend you redact your comments and stick to the editorial content and provisions of the policy this talk page is related to. Dreadstar † 02:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Nah, attacking people seems to be the norm around here and AGF is only pushed onto the noobs so "established" editers can continue pushing their warped views without criticism. Absolutely no good faith was shown to me when I started so I'm no longer assuming, if someone wants it they have to prove to me that they deserve it. And if someone attacks me I will attack back, afterall in every normal place I have been before it's the instigator that's wrong and not the people simply defending themselves. I suggest wikipedia falls in with the rest of reality. Biofase | stalk  15:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

With respect, this is a project page and it therefore seems inappropriate to name and criticize specific editors in such a fashion. If you feel you have a valid complaint about another contributor there are several more appropriate venues to discuss it. Please do consider redacting the personal portion of those comments so that discussion can more productively focus on the topic at hand. Thanks, Doc Tropics 15:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Never said this was appropriate. My comment is meant more as a criticism against the way things are usually done. I would like for DreamGuy to rather substantiate his ideas than to throw around wild unsubstantiated accusations. Simply removing stuff will not solve anything and only protects the people that made the comments. There's the old adage you can't unring a bell. SlimVirgin raised a valid issue I think and I don't see anyone besides me really trying to address it. Shoemaker's Holiday similarly discussed another tangent rather than the real issue. But while he brought it up I see no reason not to comment on it as a perfect example: No Britannica does not "present evolution as a lie by Satan" but I haven't seen anybody here suggesting we should. What I do see is that real and professional encyclopedias like Britannica and Encarta don't have a need to call creationism pseudoscience but here it is labeled as such in the second paragraph. Can anybody else see the simple fact that while wikipedia claims to be an encyclopedia "its" policies do not reflect those of a real one? Biofase | stalk  16:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Btw. this is called neutral point of view and not neutral scientific point of view. ONLY a policy that is itself non-neutral would demand scientific "consensus" to be the deciding factor while public opinion that is much more widespread is thrown to the wayside or not mentioned at all. Biofase | stalk  16:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems quite proper that science articles (and all related science-type topics) are governed by mainstream scientific consensus because quite frankly, only the opinions of scientists count on these matters; other people may have opinions, but they are not informed opinions. If Creationism supporters refered to the topic strictly as a religous belief, there would be no need to label it psuedoscience. Only because the supporters insist on claiming it is scientific does it become necessary to clarify the subject as psuedoscience. This is entirely proper because Creationism is not only unsupported by evidence, it fails to define itself in terms that admit the possibility of scientific treatment. Possibly Creationism isn't the best example of Undue Weight issues, because I'll willing agree that I have seen the problem SV describes in other areas. Doc Tropics 17:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting

Hi folx, I've done a bit of copyediting and clean-up to the top of the 'Explanation of...' section. I've divided my edits into groups to make it easier to digest (or revert) them. For the most part, I've tried hard not to change the underlying meaning of any sentence or paragraph, but in a few cases I felt the meaning was pretty unclear, so to write more clearly required me to extend the ideas a bit. I hope my changes will be well received by the many who are sure to audit them. :)

The most significant change I made was to modify the definition from "conflicting perspectives ... should be presented fairly" into "must be presented fairly". I think that's only fair. I replaced one or two (but not nearly all) other 'shoulds' with 'musts'. Also, I clarified (extended?) the concept of undue weight by explicitly pointing out that perjorative mentions imply a preference, and reinserted mention of the idea that NPOV does not mean "NO Point of View".

In any case, I think this article is becoming a rather difficult read after many years of tweaking. I think it needs quite a bit more copyediting, but I'm not so confident in my editing that I want to spend 4 or 5 more hours before I've "tested the waters", as it were. But if nobody vociferously disclaims my work so far, I plan (hope) to come back in a day or two and go over the entire article with an eye on simplifying sentence structure and generally making this article easier to read (as I feel policy pages, in particular, should be as clear and simple as possible (but not simpler, of course!)). I look forward to feedback. Eaglizard (talk) 08:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I have not looked in detail at the wording of this section for a long time, and I agree that it is very repetitive and could do with pruning. For example one specific thing I noticed when looking at your differences. "The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor opposes its subject: it does not endorse or discourage specific viewpoints. " Better writing would couple "endorse and oppose" and "sympathizes and discourage" together. --PBS (talk) 09:24, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

PBS, I took a stab at it. I hope I understood you correctly. If not, just revert it. Brangifer (talk) 14:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Not really "endorse/oppose" "sympathizesencourage/discourage" are opposites. The initial wording mixed the two and the current version is not much clearer. --PBS (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Fixed, I think. Eaglizard (talk) 18:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:NPOV#Achieving neutrality

Ok, I'm proceeding with more copyedits and such, and the section on article naming has me a bit baffled. In particular, almost the entire second paragraph seems obscure. I've detailed my questions here,

• "This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue."

My first thought was that this sentence really needs an example or two, but I honestly couldn't think of any good ones. Suggestions?

• "A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. "

What does that mean? How does a neutral title 'contextualize' the topic? Also, WP:NC seems to say that titles should reflect the most common usage and be "optimized for readers", so doesn't that trump the need for neutrality, at least sometimes?

• "The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs")."

Baffling. Might cover what same material? Isn't covering broader material and renaming articles as suggested precisely what WP:SYN tells us not to do?

• "Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing."

They do? In way, exactly?

If anyone can help clarify what's being said here, maybe it can be edited into something better.

I've also copyedited the sections on Article structure and Undue weight; please check my work there to make sure you agree with it. :) Eaglizard (talk) 19:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

How do we flag an article to dispute its neutrality?

I have moved my question about a specific article to the Noticeboard. But I would still like to know where those notices come from, such as "the neutrality of this article has been disputed" or "this article does not cite any sources". MelanieN (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

For articles, you add {{POV}} to the top of the article. But you also need to go to the article talk page and describe how you think the article is biased. A tag without discussion helps no one and will usually get removed. FYI: here is the general link to article templates, and here is the link to POV templates. Hope that helps... Auntie E (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply, very helpful! --MelanieN (talk) 00:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

Mental reservation

It seems that one of the most common criticisms of the NPOV policy is that it gives editors the feeling that they are under a kind of forced mental reservation, which is a Jesuit doctrine that is meant to create doctrinal orthodoxy. Maintaining a feeling of prolonged mental reservation can actually be bad for your health, and I think this is one of the reasons that so many conflicts have erupted on Misplaced Pages. ADM (talk) 05:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A bold proposal

In an attempt to turn a divisive RfC into something productive I have created a new page. I believe people who watch this page have valuable perspectives and I hope you will look at this new page, and do what you can to help make it work: Misplaced Pages: Areas for Reform Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Scientific consenus

My edit was reverted. I request that someone put the words "of scientists" back in. The Scientific consensus article linked in that sentences states, "Scientific consensus is the collective judgement, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study." A section I added that sought to explain how scientific consensus is related to the mainstream view of society was also reverted.. --Atomic blunder (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Not all mainstream views of society are influenced or related to scientific consensus, a point which I still have to get across in another thread. If it is to be readded in should be expanded to also make this clear and I will support such an attempt. On your first point I agree though that scientific consensus is the majority view of scientists (and ONLY scientists) towards a topic. Biofase | stalk  17:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The best anchor for additions to any article is reliable sources. Any good faith editor will think twice before deleting content that has a strong reference. Doc Tropics 18:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I gave a reference: Scientific consensus. --Atomic blunder (talk) 18:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think he was referring to content to articles in general. Unfortunately that still does not address the problem itself. Biofase | stalk  20:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

A Minor Problem

I recently noticed an interesting comment on a webcomic called xkcd. It postulated that there could be some events that Misplaced Pages could not cover neutrally, and gives an example. I think that there may need to be a provision for the possibility that a Misplaced Pages article may affect the very subject that it describes. While the given example is admittedly unlikely, the premise itself remains valid. Bennoman (talk) 18:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Request to have WP:UNDUE updated to reflect proper etiquette concerns

I wonder if those who run Misplaced Pages might consider updating WP:UNDUE to indicate that, although giving undue weight to the claims of actual Holocaust deniers is, of course, a good example of what this policy is trying to prevent, it nevertheless is bad Misplaced Pages etiquette to imply that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial or engaging in anything akin to Holocaust denial. What I'm concerned about is that some editors invoke this in order to put a chill on debate on the Talk pages, e.g., "No one believes that but you, you're just like a Holocaust denier." A Holocaust denier is someone who wants to spread the manifest falsehood that millions of people were murdered. The average person whose edits manifest a potential issue over WP:UNDUE are people who have merely not sufficiently demonstrated that a substantial minority of people agree with some specific statement. I'm okay with the principle of WP:UNDUE, it's the tenor of the discussion that I have a problem with. We shouldn't be here to belittle people's edits, but to tell them what will fly and what won't. In the specific case I've confronted (on the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis page) I've found that some elements first criticized as WP:UNDUE turned out not to be as reliable sources began to report on those elements in more detail. In other words, the "Holocaust deniers" turned out to be people trying to report a dimension of the crisis but simply not having enough evidence yet to make their point. It was legitimate of people to make edits citing WP:UNDUE until those sources emerged. It was not legitimate of those people to compare their adversaries in an editing dispute to the Nazis. Is there something that can be added to this policy to make it clear that name-calling and guilt by association are not okay according to WP:UNDUE? Zachary Klaas (talk) 18:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually this is already covered by WP:Civility. Somehow some people still get away with this form of attack causing numerous good editors to be driven away so only the uncivil POV pushing cabals remain. Ironinally the best way to deal with this is to ignore WP:Civility and call a spade a spade like it's done in the real world. Fortunately wp is losing it's grip and credibility more and more in the real world. Many of us no longer accept any reference to it in debates so the cabals have essentially only succeeded in driving people away from their articles. Biofase | stalk  20:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, and I agree it is covered elsewhere. What I'm saying is that I think the suggestion to be more civil should also be right in the text of WP:UNDUE, because this is the policy people are citing as they blast people with guilt-by-association innuendo. Zachary Klaas (talk) 21:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually I have seen people fly right past one paragraph and refer only to the next. Your intention is good but if you are hoping that duplicating some of the information here will work I can tell you now it simply won't. The problem editors know very well that they should not be doing what they are doing, unless they are new which happens very rarely. This is more the unwillingness of the people in charge being too soft to do anything about it than the ingorance of the editors. Biofase | stalk  22:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

From what I've seen, I don't doubt it...but it would help me to be able to say "Your invoking of the Holocaust in this completely unrelated context is defamatory, and look, it says right there in WP:UNDUE, the very policy you're citing that using the policy to invoke guilt-by-association is not allowed. Zachary Klaas (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Less emotionally-charged example

While I think that ZK is misreading the policy, I do agree that it would be better to use a less emotionally-charge example to illustrate the principle. Thus I changed the statement from denying that the Holocaust occurred to denying that the Apollo moon landings occurred. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That is completely separate from this. ZK is also talking about another policy and not misreading this one. Biofase | stalk  01:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I find it hard to figure out just what he's talking about. But the point remains that mentioning Holocaust denial tends to bring emotional reactions, so it would be better to use a more mundane example. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Biofase | stalk  02:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

My concern is that WP:UNDUE doesn't contain within it an express warning not to condemn other editors to guilt-by-association. My point was that calling someone a "Holocaust denier" when the debate concerning content on a particular page has nothing to do with the Holocaust. I would have the same problem if someone were called a "moon landing denier" when discussing content on a page having nothing to do with the moon landing or even space travel in general. The point of that kind of language is to stigmatize the editor and conduct argumentum ad hominem, not merely correct a page so that it doesn't give undue weight to theories supported only by a tiny minority. If this is said in other policies, fine, but I see editors using WP:UNDUE as something which sanctifies their incivility.

In the particular case of the page 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis, upon which I've been working, I've seen WP:UNDUE brought up reasonably, with positive effects on the page, when people were not able to demonstrate that opinions are held by a more sizeable minority. However, when people have been able to find sources backing up their claims, they receive no apologies for being unjustly labeled Holocaust deniers. I'd like a policy that allows people to make the proper WP:UNDUE criticisms while reining in the bullies. Zachary Klaas (talk) 04:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that the Apollo moon landing hoax is a good choice: I added the example (as part of a minor attempt to clarify the wording), and merely wanted to choose something almost everyone could agree was clearly an extreme minority view and wrong. But if it's giving the impression of an accusation of anti-semitism when the policy is linked to, it's not serving its purpose very well, and a different clearly-wrong minority claim - without the emotional baggage - will be better. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Zachary, do you have any diffs that establish that someone is "calling someone a 'Holocaust denier,'" or of "people ... being unjustly labeled Holocaust deniers"? I'd hate to think you're writing something that's clearly untrue.

Please, show us a diff where an edit has "impl that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial".

Please provide the diff for this direct quote: "No one believes that but you, you're just like a Holocaust denier."

Please provide the diff that shows how "those people," "compare their adversaries in an editing dispute to the Nazis."

What y'all are not being told, is that there was a military coup in Honduras. Members of the coup-spawned government denied that it was a coup. Most Interested Persons have been fighting for the elimination of the word "coup" everywhere it appears in Misplaced Pages, even though all the reliable sources -- that I have seen (WP, the Times in Britain, AP, Reuters) -- have been regularly, simply referring to the coup as a "coup", knowing that the de facto government denies it was one.

The Most Interested Persons fought for changing the name, and a single admin changed it, and it was whitewashed.

I -- as one of "the bullies" -- have argued that there are more people that deny the Holocaust, than that deny the coup, but we have an article called, The Holocaust. Zachary Klaas was on the other side of that "extremely small minority" argument.

I've not been "bullying", by making this argument -- and there's nothing "defamatory" about it. There has never been any "accusation of anti-semitism." You're being conned. Klaas has written about what he thinks I think, or why I've posted things, and his mind reading has been inaccurate, both times.

Helping Zachary Klaas censor people's valid arguments is an extremely poor reason to change a 5P. Klaas admits, here, that this is his reason for wanting NPOV policy changed: "it would help to be able to say 'Your invoking of the Holocaust in this completely unrelated context is defamatory, and look, it says right there in WP:UNDUE, the very policy you're citing that using the policy to invoke guilt-by-association is not allowed.' " -- Rico 18:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The only place here you are mentioned is in your comment itself. He did not campaign to "change policy" as you put it. By him own admission he knows it is already a policy so nothing would change in effect. Biofase | stalk  18:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: "He did not campaign to 'change policy' ".

He wrote, "updating WP:UNDUE to indicate that, although giving undue weight to the claims of actual Holocaust deniers is, of course, a good example of what this policy is trying to prevent, it nevertheless is bad Misplaced Pages etiquette to imply that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial or engaging in anything akin to Holocaust denial." -- Rico 18:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It's awkward wording, but I think he just meant that people were interpreting being linked to that as saying they were, or were as bad as, Holocaust deniers. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That may be -- I don't buy it -- but it does request a change to a 5P policy.

I haven't seen anyone "imply that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial" but I'm satisfied to wait for the diffs.

And -- to be more truthful -- the claim was "extremely small minority," not just "WP:UNDUE". -- Rico 18:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't have an issue with changing the Holocaust denier text to the Apollo Moon Landing Hoax text. However, in principle, I agree with Rico that we should try to establish a community consensus before changing one of the 5P policies. No big whoop. Somebody start an RfC (or whatever) and let's get this ball rolling. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It's already policy so there's no net change in policy. And please try to make less edits and use the preview button, it's hard being bombarded by edit conflict alerts. Biofase | stalk  19:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the consensus for both of the changes, and I think controversial changes to a 5P should be discussed here first -- especially in the case of a con job. (Have the diffs been provided?) -- Rico 19:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)There's only one change made Holocaust -> moon landing. 4 agree with the change, you seem to be the only one not agreeing and on the point that we shouldn't "make changes without consensus" rather than giving an opinion. While there's no problem let it stand. And there's no reason to tell me not to revert again when I have only reverted once and you have reverted twice. Also please as I already asked use the preview button instead of making 10 edits per comment Biofase | stalk  20:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus is not in numbers. Read WP:Vote. Levine2112 believes we should get community consensus. There's not been time to achieve that. We've only been discussing this for an hour and a half.

I wouldn't have had to have rereverted if you hadn't violated Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. -- Rico 20:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to refer me to anything you think I should read. I did not violate anything: BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is an essay NOT a policy. You are the ONLY one opposing the change on the "merit" that "there is no consensus". No voting is needed when nobody has opposed it. Biofase | stalk  20:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I am not the "ONLY" one that opposes the change, because Levine2112 wrote, "we should try to establish a community consensus before changing one of the 5P policies. No big whoop. Somebody start an RfC." Do you have some problem with giving other editors a chance to chime in? We've still only been discussing this for under two hours. -- Rico 20:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Please quote people fully or not at all. He does NOT oppose it as he also wrote "I personally don't have an issue with changing the Holocaust denier text to the Apollo Moon Landing Hoax text". So far you ARE the ONLY one opposing it because you think "there is no consensus for the change". If you want an RfC then start one, I dont see a need to waste other editors' time over non-controversial changes. Biofase | stalk  20:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well then we two just disagree, then, don't we?

I agree with Levine2112, who wrote, "we should try to establish a community consensus before changing one of the 5P policies".

You are the ONLY one that seems to have a problem with this.

So far, what I see, is an editor coming in here and trying to trick people into changing a WP:5P, by posting lies -- and also by posting that he wanted these changes for himself, personally, to help him censor another editor.

I'd think the community would like a chance to discuss such a thing, and come to a consensus, before making a controversial change to a major policy.

Establishing a community consensus before changing one of the 5P policies isn't a waste of time.

Read the box at the top of the policy page: "The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus." (emphasis added)

You seem to be ignoring the very small amount of time we've been discussing this.

Trying to rush through a controversial change to a 5P looks like a WP:OWN violation.

I don't know if an RfC is required, but certainly a certain amount of time is. Either of us can start one, as long as it's worded neutrally.

NPOV is a heck of a thing to try to WP:OWN. -- Rico 21:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There is already 4 editors supporting the change. You are disagreeing not with me but with an already established consensus rather than supporting or constructively arguing why the change should not be made. You have NOT shown that there isn't a consensus and please don't refer to WP:VOTE again, non-controversial changes are made regularly without any discussion. Zachary has not been trying to trick anybody here. He has made it clear why he wants the change. But that's a completely SEPARATE issue and no use trying to bring in consensus when the change hasn't been made anyway. For the record I DO regard your insinuation that I am trying to WP:OWN anything as a personal attack. Biofase | stalk  21:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No, there are not, 4, editors supporting the change -- because Levine2112 wrote, "we should try to establish a community consensus before changing one of the 5P policies. No big whoop. Somebody start an RfC."

That's not "supporting the change." That's supporting exactly what I'm supporting.

What you have, after a couple of hours, is exactly 2 people supporting the change. That's a drop in the ocean of Misplaced Pages editors.

Klaas has asked for something different. Klaas wrote that "it would help to be able to say 'Your invoking of the Holocaust in this completely unrelated context is defamatory, and look, it says right there in WP:UNDUE, the very policy you're citing that using the policy to invoke guilt-by-association is not allowed'."

I don't think that has a snowball's chance in hell of getting into the policy.

The way you count suggests that maybe you should read WP:Vote.

And speaking of counting, I only count one person that's suggesting that we should violate Misplaced Pages policy, and the box at the top of this page, before we "make sure" that consensus is to eliminate Holocaust deniers as an example of an "extremely small minority" that has no place being in Misplaced Pages.

And, yes, I seem to be arguing just with you.

I think that Holocaust denial is a great example of a viewpoint, held by an "extremely small minority," that should not be in Misplaced Pages.

I don't believe it should be expunged from everywhere it exists in this policy.

That looks too much like sweeping under the carpet something that should never be forgotten denied.

I think other Wikipedians might feel that way too.

Re: "You have NOT shown that there isn't a consensus". That would be something someone wanting the change would have to do.

Please tell me why you want to make the change so fast that other editors will not have time to discuss the change in question, too.

Why, after two hours, are you declaring "an already established consensus"?

One look at this talk page establishes that these are not "non-controversial changes" -- and that is not your sole decision to make.

If these are such, "non-controversial changes," why is it so important to you that they be made?

I'm 100% willing to abide by consensus. Aren't you willing to wait and see what it ultimately is?

Your contributions history goes back one month. How can you be so sure you're right? You're already reverting reverts to WP:5P policies??

A lot of people care about the 5Ps. We must give people a chance to contribute to the discussion, so that we can come to a community consensus.

Re: "Zachary has not been trying to trick anybody here."

Read between the lines. I gave him a chance to substantiate five different allegations -- or that he was not able to, because they weren't true.

If he can't substantiate his very serious accusations, then what we're left with is a request for changes to a WP:5P, to try to help Zachary censor editors with opposing viewpoints.

Re: "He has made it clear why he wants the change."

He came in here and lied his rear end off to people to get NPOV changed for his own personal purposes -- to try to censor one side of a debate concerning an article.

Re: "no use trying to bring in consensus when the change hasn't been made anyway".

Two changes had been made. I reverted the last one of them.

I wrote, "Trying to rush through a controversial change to a 5P looks like a WP:OWN violation" -- and it looks to me like you're still arguing for that to be done. I wrote, "NPOV is a heck of a thing to try to WP:OWN."

These reflect on your editing, your revert revert, and your continuing argument -- not on you personally -- so they don't qualify as personal attack(s). -- Rico 00:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice, still continuing the personal attacks:

I wrote, "Trying to rush through a controversial change to a 5P looks like a WP:OWN violation" -- and it looks to me like you're still arguing for that to be done.

Biofase | stalk  00:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I was writing about what you've been writing, not about you personally. Arguments like, "an already established consensus" (after two hours) are open to critique -- and it's incivil to accuse people of personal attacks where there aren't any. Accusing someone of levying a personal attack, that hasn't, is a personal attack in and of itself. -- Rico 01:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Accusing people of trying to WP:OWN an article (or policy actually) is considered a personal attack under the very policy you are using to make the accusation. Saying you were writing about what I've been writing doesn't change this fact. And as I already stated, I'm not interested in discussing other changes of other contributors so please stop referring to them in comments directed to me in this thread. If I want to discuss them I'll do it in their own thread. So far Short Brigade Harvester Boris, Shoemaker's Holiday, Levine2112, and me support the change, that's 4 people. I think Levine2112 might be misreading the issue (apologies if you're not). So far your position is that "change should not be made without consensus", fair enough, but nobody opposed the change in the first place and you still haven't even indicated if you agree with the change or not. Biofase | stalk  01:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Before I saw that Klaas was being taken seriously, something I hadn't expected, no one here knew they were being snowed. People may have gone for Klaas' specious argument, not realizing that all these things that Klaas said were happening, hadn't happened.

The people that you claim "support the change," wrote what they wrote before I jumped in to blow the whistle on Klaas' lies. (Klaas may still be looking for those diffs, and OJ may still be looking for the real killer.)

It would be enlightening to hear from them again, now that I have challenged the truth of statements that were made as if they were facts.

The argument that we need these changes was based, in large part, on false statements that gave a false impression.

I know that a lot of people mightn't like to admit -- even, maybe, to themselves -- that they've been bamboozled. But I'd still like to hear from them again.

Levine2112 has made it clear, twice now, that s/he supports an RfC to get consensus. Levine would not oppose the changes, if there is consensus for them -- so stop adding Levine2112 into your count wp:Vote violation.

I would also be fine with an RfC to determine consensus.

Your repeated counting suggests a lack of respect for wp:Vote. Is that your whole argument for making these changes?

I just read the wp:Own policy and it doesn't say what you say it does. -- Rico 03:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

And it was done at 01:21, 28 July and commented on several times since then including 15:15, 28 July, not merely the '2 hours' that you mention. During that time there was no objection from the large amount of users that monitor this page which is enough to consider consensus for a non-controversial change. Biofase | stalk  02:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Oy vey. Let me be absolutely clear about this. I have no problem with the change as described here. If there was an RfC asking if it was okay to change Holocaust Denial to Apollo Moon Landing Hoax, I wouldn't be opposed to that change (barring the possibility of any convincing arguments). I think when changing a 5P policy - even in a way that seems innocuous - it sure isn't a bad idea to get input from the community. We've tried the WP:BOLD approach and per WP:BRD we are now discussing the merits of such an edit. There still seems to be a dispute - even if it is only one versus four (or whatever). So per WP:DR, now is the time to actively seek outside opinions. This talk page alone might not be enough to attract others. Try listing a simple RfC and see what happens. That's my advice anyhow. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 00:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Diffs requested (from the Honduran coup debates)

• Someone "calling someone a 'Holocaust denier'"
• Showing "people ... being unjustly labeled Holocaust deniers"?
• Where an edit has "impl that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial".
• This direct quote: "No one believes that but you, you're just like a Holocaust denier."
• One that shows how "those people," "compare their adversaries in an editing dispute to the Nazis."

This -- and "it would help to be able to say 'Your invoking of the Holocaust in this completely unrelated context is defamatory, and look, it says right there in WP:UNDUE, the very policy you're citing that using the policy to invoke guilt-by-association is not allowed' " -- were the reasons cited for the need for this 5P change. -- Rico 19:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Due to archiving, I don't see any of Rico's original contents on the talk page for 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis, but an example does still appear ( ) in the section marked "Top", along with my response at seeing the Holocaust language I had already seen plenty of elsewhere. If someone can go through some of the archived Talk pages for 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis, you'll see similar comments to this. Zachary Klaas (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Would please you point out where I:
* "Call someone a 'Holocaust denier'"?
* "Unjustly labeled" "people" "Holocaust deniers"?
* "Impl that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial"?
* Wrote: "No one believes that but you, you're just like a Holocaust denier."
* "Compare my adversaries in an editing dispute to the Nazis"?
That is what you would need to show that what you wrote, while trying to get a 5P changed -- to help you censor the argument of an editor with whom you disagree -- wasn't deceiving. -- Rico 20:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Trying to change NPOV, because "it would help to be able to say 'Your invoking of the Holocaust in this completely unrelated context is defamatory, and look, it says right there in WP:UNDUE, the very policy you're citing that using the policy to invoke guilt-by-association is not allowed.' "

I don't agree with this, and I think it needs to be discussed by more than just a very few editors.
I think it's unbelieveable that someone would come here to try to stop me from arguing that only an "extremely small minority" denies the Holocaust, and we have an article named, "The Holocaust" -- so we can name the coup a "coup", even if there exists an (extremely small) minority that deny it was a coup. -- Rico 19:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

This is the kind of badgering to which I've been referring. Zachary Klaas (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I haven't seen you referring to any "badgering" -- but I would like to know if you are going to post the diffs, because it looks like you made a lot of claims that were simply untrue. Are you conceding that they were all untrue? Conning people on a 5P talk page to get a major policy changed -- just to help you censor another editor -- is very serious, so I'd like to believe you didn't just do that. -- Rico 19:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Does someone who is not either me or Rico have access to the archived Talk pages for 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis? There are ample examples there. I'm new enough here not really to know how to do that yet. Please note that any comments I made on those pages were not actually even related to contesting that a coup took place in Honduras, as I have completely accepted that. My comments were about Rico badgering others that disagree with him by comparing them to Holocaust deniers or isolated defenders of stereotypical top-hatted Snidely Whiplash right-wing elitists.

If you want a more recent example, as I said look here ( )for a similar kind of comment about the Holocaust from Rico on the Talk page for Chronology of 2009 Honduras coup d'état. Zachary Klaas (talk) 20:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, would you point out where I:
* "Call someone a 'Holocaust denier'"?
* "Unjustly labeled" "people" "Holocaust deniers"?
* "Impl that a person who is advancing a claim thought to be WP:UNDUE is somehow a supporter of Holocaust denial"?
* Wrote: "No one believes that but you, you're just like a Holocaust denier."
* "Compare my adversaries in an editing dispute to the Nazis"?
That is what you would need to show that what you wrote, while trying to get a 5P changed, wasn't deceitful. -- Rico 20:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I've added "Note this comment" in bold to something Rico said under the previous heading of "Less emotionally-charged example" which is very representative of his comments on the Honduras pages. Someone who disagrees with him is implicitly made out to be a Holocaust denier. Zachary Klaas (talk) 20:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with using diffs to point to exactly to what I've written, so that you can substantiate your accusation (that, without substantiation, is a personal attack)?

You keep pointing to, as evidence that I "implicitly made out" "Someone who disagrees with " "to be a Holocaust denier."

Problem is, I didn't "implicitly out" "Someone who disagrees with " "to be a Holocaust denier." -- Rico 20:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Should Holocaust denial be replaced by Apollo Moon Landing Hoax

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Should Holocaust denial be replaced with Apollo Moon Landing Hoax text, throughout the WP:NPOV page? -- Rico 03:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I think that Holocaust denial is a great example of a viewpoint, held by an "extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, does not belong in Misplaced Pages." (Jimbo)
  I don't believe it should be expunged from everywhere it exists in this policy.
  That looks too much like sweeping under the carpet something that should never be forgotten denied. -- Rico 03:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment