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Turkey B‑class High‑importance

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Archives

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 06:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - Archived on November 24, 2006 Archive 2 - To be Archived on ...

Comments

Comment

Could someone put a better map on the page? The current one is nice-looking but it doesn't put the area into a world perspective. If you know what I mean.

The opening section needs to emphasize that Anatolia is a cultural region and home to important places, like Çatalhöyük, IIRC. Starting with its etymology seems odd. It's a place, primarily, not a word.

It's also a place with a strong Pre-Turkish identity.

Boundaries

The maps of the Anatolian peninsula seem to include all of the Asian part of modern Turkey, but as I look on the map, only the part east of the Syrian coast is really a peninsula. So which of the 2 definitions is the historically accurate one?

Maybe the map of Anatolia should show its boundaries, and, if not just the peninsula, an explanation why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.0.50 (talk) 02:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes the definition of the actual boundaries of Anatolia make a good question. Because, if you want to refer to Anatolia as a peninsula, you need to stick to a strictly geophysical definition of its boundaries. For example, Italy and Iberia, as peninsulas, have their borders well defined by waters-divides (the Alps and the Pirenees, respectivelly). If you consider the waters-divide as a criteria, then Cilicia, Kurdistan and the historical Armenia will fall completelly off Anatolia as a geophysical conception of peninsula. Unless you chose to consider Anatolia as a geopolitical conception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.71.79 (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

sleepinbuff

sleepinbuff Asia Minor

A user added it recently. Edit summary:

63.93.96.62, is that your website?deniz_C 22:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Anatoli in Lithuanian language means 'the land who is far away' and has nothing to do with the sunrise or rise —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.2.136 (talk) 18:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ana, dolu

Hi, Deniz, thanks for fixing my typo. Here is what the cited article says about "Ana, dolu":

No less important a role for national survival is motherhood. At school, boys and girls learn to link men’s military deeds to women’s nurture. This lesson was impressed on fourth-graders in one of their readings, “Anatolia” (Anadolu). The author of the passage traces the etymology of the word “Anatolia” to a legend about a virtuous old woman who serves buttermilk to mobilized Ottoman soldiers. Every time she tells the soldiers “fill up my brave men” (doldurun yig˘itlerim), they answer “Mother, it is full” (Ana, dolu). What is relevant here is not the legendary etymology of the peninsula, but the links between milk and womanhood, on the one hand, and nationhood, on the other. In fact, in a class I attended, some seventh-graders added that mother’s milk gives strength to Turkish soldiers.

The author cites İlkokul Türkçe Ders Kitabı 3 (İstanbul: Media Print, 1990) as a source for this story. Here is another version of that legend: . Of course, "ana dolu" without the comma would mean "full of mothers", but that is not what these sources give as the story. Perhaps there is more than one folk etymology, and another one explains it as "full of mothers". If so, perhaps you could find a source for that story? --Macrakis 22:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't have to be one or more than one folk etymologies. The root is simple, Ana means mother in Turkish and Dolu means full. But in Turkish, "Ana dolu" completely means "Full of mothers", even the way the word is pronounced. To say "Mother it is full", it has to be "Ana, dolu" but this is not as correct as "full of mothers" 85.101.56.73 22:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

85.101.56.73, why are you trying to legitimize one of these two claims by using grammar? We all know that the name of Anatolia comes from the ancient times, not from the Turkish times. It is like Ancyra turning into Ankara. Of course, if we take Sun Language Theory as our approach, these ancient languages also have their roots at Central Asia. Honestly, everybody knows it is a low possibility ;) Deliogul 13:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

All of this is very interesting, but the "Sun Language" idea needs to yield to actual linguistics, such as work by Merritt Ruhlen (Stanford). Proto-World is the proper term for the ur-language, and proto-Boreal is the proper term for the language spoken by the out-of-Africa migrants who firsted settled in Asia Minor and then moved up through Anatolia into Europe. DrKamaila (talk) 00:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Kamaila

Removed table

I removed this table because it is totally redundant with the "History of Anatolia" box.Dave (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Table

Dave, where do you get off removing the table? I liked it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.62.231 (talk) 20:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Weasel-words in sections of this entry

Hiding historical events behind weasel-worded phrases. Unspecified "events of World War I", we are told, did something also unpecified to "wipe out the indigenous Christian Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia" (leaving every Armenian in northern, southern, central, and western Anatolia alone, presumably). I changed it to the more concise, accurate and wikilinked "Beginning in 1915, the indigenous Christian Armenian population of Anatolia was systematically wiped out", However, it was reverted without explanation.

Also removed was my edit to remove the jargon-phrase "ethnically cleansed", this is not a proper term, and only one source calls it that. If someone wants to rewrite it to say that an author, McCarthy, characterised what happened as, quote, "ethnic cleansing" then do that, but do not reinsert a bald phrase that should not be there, or use colloquialisms like "flocked" (this is not an article about birds), or insert fantasy history, like claiming that the Ottoman empire "collapsed" during the Balkan wars, or that Greeks living in Anatolia only started to be expelled as a result of the Treaty of Lausanne. If someone like McCarthy uses such stupid phrases or such gross generalisations in his books then that is his buisness, but they have no place in an encyclopedia. Meowy 21:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Relax, friend. We, too, are trying to write an encyclopedia. It would perhaps help if you not elevate yourself above Justin McCarthy. Accept him as one of the people (like Bernard Lewis, and your own favorites) who have studied and pronounced on this issue. Then approach this article as a negotiation, not as the transcription of a truth which you alone possess.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Some might say that even a humble worm could elevate itself above the level of Justin McCarthy. Please address the issues that I raised, and not your or my opinion of McCarthy. Is it appropriate to use colloquialisms like "flocked", or media-generated jargon like "ethnic cleansing", or have inaccuracies like "collapsed", or euphemisms like "events of WW1"? Meowy 15:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

We all know what happened. Call it wiped out, de-populated, ethnically cleansed, moved, forced to move, exchanged, genocided, etc... do not impose your sense of vocabulary and pc on others. You do not actually own these terms. They are common epressions and not quotes. WWI and disintigration of the Ottoman Empire was the real root cause of population moves, both in and out of Anatolia. They did not move because of Lausanne for pete's sake! One of course needs to add all the later groups that were ethnically cleansed from their homes and found refuge in Anatolia in later decades. The events we all watched on cnn. This needs to be further expanded maybe, since the mosaic so rich actually. What part of this does anyone have a problem with?--Murat (talk) 03:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Should "events from World War I" be used? The expulsion of the Armenians continued for quite some time after (like in Cilicia). Many also tried to return to their homes, but were not allowed to do so. Studied and pronounced on the issue? Robert Faurisson and David Irving have studied and pronounced as well, but I don't see them on the Holocaust or gas chamber articles. Hakob (talk) 09:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

That's why I used "Beginning in 1915", that and the fact that it avoids a resemblence to McCarthy's genocide denialist line that it was all just "events in WW1" (or as the wikipedia entry on him puts it, "subsumes into the general chaos of World War I"). Meowy 16:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I think "WWI events" is appropriate as it is a root cause. I have (tried) to list others as well. Population moves continued well into our time of course. What does attempt at returning home have anything with this?--Murat (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Murat, sorry I didn't explain why I had removed your material. I did it because it was off-topic here. This is just a general entry for Anatolia, with a subsection of it dealing with its populations. It is not an article about the post WW1 population exchanges so we can't have in this entry detailed stuff like the names of specific islands that are not even in Anatolia. However, I think there is a place to mention population changes in the 20s and 30s and later - such as the continued loss of Anatolia's remaining Armenian population. If there were also Turks or other Muslims arriving from Crimea, Bulgaria, etc, then that too should be mentioned. Meowy 16:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It is all fine but why so many paragraphs then singaling out Armenians and secondarily Greeks, their specific history and fate and who and when etc., when there was so much (more actually) population movement also involving Muslims and other ethnic groups? Locations are mentioned as they are the origins of people moving in and distinguish them, such as "Ahiska Turks" vs "Crimean Tatars". Maybe there should be a another heading: "Peoples of Anatolia".--Murat (talk) 01:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be hard to separate out "Peoples of Anatolia" material from the "history" section without having a lot of duplication. Trouble is this is just a general article about Anatolia and there won't be space to consider things in detail. Regarding incoming Turks in the modern period, if they did not change the culture or ethnic makeup of Anatolia, for example if Anatolia was 95% Turkish and 100,000 Turks arrive from Bulgaria making it 95.1% Turkish, then should they be mentioned at all? However, some Muslim groups, like Chechens or Circasians, kept and still keep their ethnic identity. Meowy 20:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Very rarely did the refugees from the Caucasus "keep their ethnic identity." Many Turks do remember that their ancestors came from these areas, but they view themselves as Turks, and seldom speak a Caucasian language. Assimilation worked very well, much like it did with early waves of European immigrants to the United States. The article Turkification deals with assimilation in Anatolia, though it currently focuses on assimilation during the Seljuk period, when Armenians and other autochthonous peoples converted to Islam and adopted the Turkish language.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 12:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there is a lack of knowledge about who or what makes up the non-Christian masses of Turkey. Many simply lump them as one big group since they are not Armenians or Greeks! There are over 5-6 million people who consider themselves "bosnak", meaning from Rumeli, or Balkans for example. Millions of people ethnically cleansed from Greece, Thrace, Bulgaris, Crimea, Armenia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Albania, Macedonia, Cyprus, Chechneya, Circussia, Syria, Lebanon, Caucauses in general, Afghanistan, Russia, North Africa, etc make up a large chunk of the people of Turkey. They mostly call themselves Turks happily. I do not even include the population moves in modern times, from Bulgaria, Bosnia, Thrace, Cyprus, and over a million some say escaping Iran-Iraq war, then Northern Iraq and Afghans etc... add to this 'guest workers' and immigrants from Russia, Moldovia, Ukraine, Armenia and other non-Muslim origins. So "Turk" to most of us means someone from Turkey and speaks primarily Turkish. For daily usage, at least in Turkey today, it does not have an ethnic connotation, at least for most folks.--Murat (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

can we add an image of an ancient coin?

I added some content about Asia Minor being the birthplace of coinage and a link to my site about this interesting subject. It would be great to upload an image of an early ancient (gold) coin that was minted in Ephesos for demonstration of the point. How can we do that? Would that be of interest to the article? Syennesis (talk) 13:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You will have to provide a proper reference for that claim, and not just a link to your website. Meowy 20:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That's fairly easy to do. It's common knwoledge really that the first coin was minted and used as a currency in Lydia.-- Ευπάτωρ 20:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It might be common knowledge to Classical coin collectors, but it won't be to anyone else! Meowy 14:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are many books on the subject and the site is devoted to the subject as a whole (we also have many references listed at Reference page). But many thanks to the user who provided the Howgego reference on Lydian coinage, though I might add that Ephesos also has a claim to the proposition (a coin of which I was going to post). Syennesis (talk) 09:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It has always been my understanding that the Lydian one predated the Ephesos coin?-- Ευπάτωρ 20:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that electrum was first found (and probably traded) in Lydia, but it is an open question where those naturally occurring chunks of metal (found on riverbanks) were first standardized in weight and struck with some insignia. Much recent evidence points to Ionia, with Ephesos being the natural candidate as the main city of the time. Please take a look at these coins - Ionia Uncertain. They appear (based on style and fabric) to be older than the traditional Lydian lions (at least to me). I believe the recent archeological evidence also points to Ephesos as being settled earlier than previously thought, and certainly the finds at the Temple of Artemis (The Phanes Hoard - see here) reveal that electrum coins were struck at Ephesos at a very early time -- we are talking about mid to late 7th century BC. Syennesis (talk) 05:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

SOUTHEASTERN ANATOLIA NOT "EASTERN ANATOLIA"

The region so called "easten anatolia" has since 4000 years back been called KURDISTAN. The name Anatolia, or ASIA MINOR as it was called like that --> referred to the greek history before the settlement of the of the mongols (now Turks), who slaughtered everyone the could find came there, they came only 1000 years ago there. Just because the state Turley has occupied the northern part of KURDISTAN, it want to use the name "Anatolia" becuase to make itself "more european", but reffered to the history it is always been called "Asia Minor". And naming Northern Kurdistan as "Eastern Anatolia (Güney Anadolu and Daglar Anadolu) is a political and demographic turkization of the Kurdistanian part of Turkey (Northern Kurdistan). They want to name the land of Kurdistan that they have occupied (since 1922, although the Treaty of Sevres didn't work out that promised the Kurdistanians to be independent with a land of 550 000 sqare kilometres), that they want to name the occupied northern part of Kurdistan as "eastern Anatolia", although it is not "anatolia", and that "Anatolia" is in real "Asia Minor" (That normally don't include Kurdistan, olny The pennisula of historicly Asia Minor.

KURDISTAN has existed long before the settlement of the Turks from Mongolia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.151.43.53 (talk) 14:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Taking the ranting out of the above comment, there is a fraction of truth in it. Historically, Anatolia did not extend into what is now called by Turkey "eastern Anatolia". We can actually see this in some of the content in the article. For example, the history subsection currently begins with the words "Eastern Anatolia contains the oldest monumental structures in the world", giving as examples. Göbekli Tepe, Çatalhöyük, Çayönü, Nevali Cori, and Hacilar. Actually none of these are in "eastern Anatolia" if the definition of it within this article is used. They are all actually in central Anatolia or in regions west of it. However, they would be mostly correctly described as being in eastern Anatolia if "eastern Anatolia" ended where it historically did, at the western borders of Armenia (Armenia used as a geographical region, not as an ethnic one). Some wording needs to be found to express this within the article. Meowy 21:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

WE NEED AN ARTICLE ABOUT ANATOLIANS!

Turks were originally from CENTRAL ASIA!. Turkey obviousy is far from the centre of Asia,(DUH!) so who are the natives. uuuuhhhh... ANATOLIANS! Surely we can't ignore THEIR EMPPIRE! --GooglePedia12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.57.142 (talk) 04:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Names Asia Minor

Current usage makes Anatolia and Asia Minor essentially synonymous but the original meaning of Asia Minores was Asia inside the Roman Empire versus Asia Magna all of Asia beyond the borders. The source for this is History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram second edition page 81, (85-29044). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitpyck (talk • contribs) 19:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC) My bad- this belongs in names of Anatolia. Nitpyck (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

And some anon has just added Greek names for Asia Minor. I doubt if they are a helpful addition, but since Asia Minor redirects to here, they are justified for that reason alone. I think this matter will have to be sorted out. Meowy 02:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

POV edits by Pantepoptes

This editor has twice erased mention of the WW1-period genocide of Anatolia's Armenian population and the partial destruction of its Greek population. He has attempted to introduce serious distortions of reality by claiming that some of Anatolia is not in Turkey, that the Byzantine empire did not control all of western and central Anatolia at the time ofthe Arab invasions, and that the Armenian genocide was actualy just a "struggle ... during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire" against Turks and Kurds. Meowy 19:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Typical Turkish POV. The issue here, is that the history section should present a very brief overview, not go into excruciating detail about who killed whom and who burned what. The 3 genocides that occured in Anatolia are widely recognized and deserve mention, while there is no such thing as a "Turkish genocide", nor do any Greek or Armenian reprisals qualify as such. There are no two sides to a genocide, and there should be no equivocating and attempts to justify genocide. Particularly in this article, which is primarily a geography article. --Athenean (talk) 01:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Pantepoptes refuses to justify any of his edits in this talk page, refuses to address any of the points I made in my above post, and seems to be actually boasting about that silence in the edit summary in which he says "I'm not "justifying" anything". Meowy 02:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Pantepoptes has again vandalised the article by reinserting his lies and distortions. And he still refuses to justify any of his edits on this talk page! Can he justify any of his delusions? If he believes that some parts of western and central anatolia was not under Byzantine control at the outset of the Arab invasions, then would he tell us exactly which parts? If he believes that some parts of Anatolia are not in Turkey, would he tell us exactly which parts? And why does he not want to mention that, with Persian help, various local dynasties in eastern Turkey opposed Ottoman rule for centuries? And why does he think he can get away with filling the hstory section - a section that is meant to be concise given that there is already a main article on the same subject - with the usual laughable Turkish extremist propaganda? Meowy 15:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

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