Misplaced Pages

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Cities This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Turkey Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Armenia Erzurum is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Unrelated template

Please dont put any irrelevant template.This is a nationalist approach and can bring some distruptive edits on Armenian cities(Which they were ruled by Ottoman Empire till to 1920's).No need like war-edits in wiki. Regards. Must 10:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That is why smilar many Templates deleted from Greece, Erivan etc(some deleted by me). Please dont begin nationalist edit-rv war among users.Must 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding it doesn't mean a claim to it, it just means that Armenian editors are contributing as well since it has a significant historic past to Armenia. Khoikhoi 20:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

External links

I deleted the link: * The City Overview (video) because the video is no longer available. Yahshammah 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

blockquotes

I did not remove any information, I just removed those unnecessary, lenghty, POV blockquotes. I don't see why we should keep them. Deniz_C 14:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I don't like blockquotes either. What was the reason to remove the info about the deportation route? --VartanM 16:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What info? If it is removed, then it is a mistake, sorry if that is the case. Deniz_C 16:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If the "history" section of this entry actually lived up to its name, then those quotes would be considered overly-long and probably superfluous to the entry. However there is almost nothing of the substantial history of Erzurum in this entry, and until there is more content I think the quotes should remain because they neatly sum-up events in Erzurum at the end of the 19th century. PS - by mistake, I made the change (re-inserting the quotes) before logging in. Meowy 21:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, much of the history content that is currently contained in the entry for Erzurum region would appear to be more appropriate for this entry. Thoughts? Meowy 21:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We cannot include things for the sake of including them. The history section is not that short, what this article is lacking is other stuff (besides if it is short we should be more selective when adding things, and add them duly) . This city is a modern city, people live in this city, many things can be added. But our blockquotes don't seem to add anything useful. They are just unencyclopedic POV things imposing ideas on the reader (this might be the weasel thing you were mentioning on Ataturk). No reason for them to stay. Also some stuff in the history section should not be there (I moved them into new sections). Deniz_C 20:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I will not re-insert the quotes. Following you reasoning, I have removed the sentence on Nene Hatum. As written, it was unenyclopaedic POV, and there already is a link about her in the notable natives section. Regarding the length of thehistoy section, Erzurum's history is at least 2000 years, we have a couple of lines covering a few incidents in recent centuries. Do you really think that is not too short?? Meowy 19:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It is short, not too short, the article in general is short, that does not mean we should go ahead and add those blockquotes. Nene Hatun thing can be rephrased and readded, as it was actually giving additional info about a war, but it should be rephrased like I said. Women taking on arms against a strong foe, and defeating that foe, might be quite notable. Also, I checked Mama Hatun, and I think now that it might be useful to add that Erzurum was capital of Saltuklu's, also we might add other historical states, whose capital lies in today's Erzurum, the city. Deniz_C 23:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The Nene Hatun thing wasn't giving additional information about that war, because there was no information at all about that war in the history section! That is why I removed it. The entry needs much more basic information about the history of Erzurum on the page before inserting tiny details that are already fully covered in another entry. Regarding your feeling that the history information pertaining to Erzurum city should remain on the Erzurum region page. Erzurum region once included all of present-day Kars, Ardahan, and Artvin regions. Presumably you are not arguing that all the pre-19th century history of those places should be moved to Erzurum region! Meowy 19:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not aware of "according to" being weasel, it might in fact be the opposite. Anyway, Balakian should stay there, being a controversial figure. Deniz_C 01:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

They are clearly weasel words. Is every citation in Misplaced Pages also accompanied by the phrase "according to"? The source of the information is already properly cited, indicating that the source of the info is Balakian (who sourced it directly from newspaper reports of that period). Meowy 03:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversial ones, yes, or should be. Otherwise no problem with it. I don't see anything weasel there. Deniz_C 10:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, I only see a map there, no newspaper refs. There is a reference to "investigative journalist" Fisk though. Let's not fisk him, but I am not sure he has an access to a map, need to see his book. If the real reference is him, then we should indicate so, no need for intermediaries. Also I don't understand why we find this book reliable, it is a literary piece by a poet, 'literary liberties' might be taken, and we don't have place for them, especially for these subjects. It is like making a witness out of an actor. Deniz_C 11:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Deniz, you wanted the newspaper quotes removed, so they were! There is nothing controversial in the reference, It may be "controversial" in Turkey (where you may get imprisoned, or worse, if you say anything against official "history") but it is not controversial in the real world.Meowy 05:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. No one is imprisoned for "saying anything against the official 'history'" in Turkey (there is no such law). maybe in your country it is, I don't know. The poet is controversial, in my opinion. It wouldn't necessarily be controversial, if he was talking about literary life in Erzurum. I don't see anything wrong with the addition of "according to Balakian", we even have "according to X" with historians. Deniz_C 05:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Your addition is clearly weasel. As I explained earlier, the source of the information is already properly cited to Misplaced Pages standards, with that citation indicating that the source is a book by Balakian. If it will help you, maybe I will add more information to that section: the book "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" has a chapter on the 1915-1918 period. Meowy 01:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

misinformation

"Erzeroum (Armenian: Կարին (Karin), see also its former and other names) is a city in Western Armenia."

I think this is a very cool example of misinformation & pov. keep doing it ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciup (talk • contribs) 00:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, upload a pic of your favorite dream map. Do western armenia includes new york too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciup (talk • contribs) 01:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century. If "Western Armenia" is considered to equate to "Turkish Armenia" then the epithet is correct, but it would be better to use "Turkish Armenia".

BTW, "Erzurum International Airport"?? What international flights depart from Erzurum? I know of none. Meowy 19:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century."
..but we are in the 21.century. right?
I think "it's better" to use "Eastern Anatolia Region", which is current.Ciup 20:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
It's official name is Erzurum Hava Limanı : Erzurum Airport Ciup 21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a misinformation when saying Erzurum was the scene of massacres during 1890s? Where are the references? Who claimed the references to be the truth? If I go and state on Armenia that it was the scene of Azerbaijani massacres would you the Armenians keep that info in there as well, or delete it in a hurry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zumbalak (talk • contribs) 17:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The information is fully sourced, if you care to actually read the entry. Earlier versions of this entry actually included quotes from the newspaper articles but they were removed by another editor, a mistake given that genocide-denialists will try to creep through the smallest gap. Meowy 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted unexplained partial blanking by an IP as the info is sourced and significant. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just done the same thing. Meowy 22:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This article needs some clean up. It seems a little strange that almost half of the article about this important city in Eastern Turkey is dedicated to its Armenian history and their fate. These are topics discussed and distorted and inflated at length in many dedicated articles. Can we make this article more about Erzurum? The reference to Erzurum being an "extermination" center is unsubstantiated and not sure what that even means. There were gas chambers and ovens there? This needs more backup. One can not elaborate what happened in Erzurum during WWI without also elaborating what happened there to its Muslim citizens and what Armenians and Russians did to them. It may be best to indicate that the city changed hands a few times and was the site intense warfare and civil war. All this is open to constructive discussion.--Murat (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Murat, please consider my "sleeping dogs" comment I made to you in another article. You really do not want stir things up here because you will not like the properly referenced and sourced article that will result from it. Unlike Bitlis or Sasun, I know enough, and have the material, to confidently write about Erzurum. Meowy 23:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid the dogs are already awake and at work. Is it really possible to demonize Turks more? Though I do have a healthy respect for your capacity for self-deception and ethnic propaganda.--Murat (talk) 20:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Your removal of information you've labeled as "propaganda", is referenced and is also referenced here . Kansas Bear (talk) 01:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this entry might need to be semi-protected so that unregistered editors can't edit it. Every week or so, over the past few months, an anonymous editor (or editors) keeps removing the same sourced material. Meowy 19:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} The so-called picture in the article 1) is not a photograph but a signed painting 2) origin is obscure, no reference given. I request that it be removed as it only serves as an ethnic propaganda tool as much of the article. Secondly, the long and detailed description of the fate of Armenians in Erzurum should at least be accompanied by description of what happened to the local Muslim population when Armenians and Russians took it. All my attempts to bring some balance to the article have been thwarted. --Murat (talk) 05:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit protected}} template. PeterSymonds (talk) 11:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I said "semiprotected" not fully protected! There is no dispute of a scale that needs protecing the article in this way. The anonymous edits were vandalism, not a content dispute. The picture is a photo, references exist, I'll get them. Meowy 02:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Massacre of Armenians in Erzurum picture

I believe this picture to be out of place. I understand the emphasis that some want to place on the Armenian Genocide, but a simple link to the AG page would accomplish this task. Some current and past pictures of Erzurum would greatly improve this article. Thoughts, concerns?? Kansas Bear (talk) 16:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It only seems out of place because the article's history of Erzurum section is so inadequate and tiny. Once it is expanded to its righful size, the photo won't be out of place. BTW, the event is connected to the Hamidian massacres, not the Armenian genocide. Meowy 02:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It is out of place of course. Only picture in an article about Erzurum is NOT about or of Erzurum! Why not also include a picture of Turks killed by Armenians there too?. It was a site of major massacres by Armenians afterall. There is clearly no good intentions here. Besides, what kind of photographer "signs" a photo? It is sad and unfortunate that this is the state of the entry that is under "protection".--Murat (talk) 12:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It was very common for people to "sign" photographs (or rather have the name on the prints) in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. You can find many many such examples from Ottoman times. Ordtoy (talk) 17:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I can not recall a single such example, not to mention that I can clearly see the brush strokes. Regardless, the picture does not belong there, as there is not a single picture Erzurum in an Erzurum article. How does this copyrighted (right?) picture make it all the way here by the way?--Murat (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you seem interested in Ottoman history Hüdavendigâr, I suggest that you look at collections of old photographs or postcards of Ottoman cities. These will often have the photographer's or studio's name printed in one of the bottom corners. Secondly, if you are confused about copyrights then please note the following paragraph attached to the photo:

"This media file is in the public domain in the United States. This applies to U.S. works where the copyright has expired, often because its first publication occurred prior to January 1, 1923. See this page for further explanation."

Ordtoy (talk) 05:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as nowadays it is very common for web sites to put website addresses on their photos. In both cases it was to stop others stealing them and reusing them. I.e. as far as copyright recognition goes, 21st-century electronic media is as lawless as 19th-century print media! Meowy 19:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The photograph is by an American photographer named William Sachtleben who was in Erzurum at that time in order to investigate the disapearance of another American citizen who had been travelling from Persia to Turkey. The photo actually depicts the bodies of some of the victims being gathered prior to being buried in a mass grave. So the caption needs to be rewritten as the current wording suggests the dead are lying where they were killed. See "The W. L. Sachleben Papers on Erzurum in the 1890s" in "Armenian Karin/Erzurum", 2003. Meowy 19:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yet the motivation is the same, whether it's the Armenian Genocide or Hamidian massacres. The picture does nothing to improve the article. Why isn't that picture on the Hamidian massacres article?? That is where it belongs. This article would improve, if it had pictures of Erzurum, not certain events in its past. Kansas Bear (talk) 20:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I think if you go way way back into the history of this article we will find that the illustration was added because someone was disputing the fact of the massacres, and the illustration was accompanied with a quote from the actual newspaper report. As long as we can be sure that mention of the massacres in Erzurum isn't going to be removed, then you may be right that the image would be better placed in the Hamidian massacres article. Meowy 21:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hamidian massacres has 3 sources, so I don't see any reason for it to be removed. The picture, in question, would be better served on the Hamidian Massacre article, IMO. Kansas Bear (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Coming back to this picture. No, sorry, illustration. No, figure of speech. Well, whatever it is, certainly not a picture as the title misleads. Everything about this "illustration" is wrong here. There is no source. No reference. Picture text includes primitive ethnic propaganda but nothing about who took it where and when and any info on the usage and copyright and where it is published. Worst of all, as one can clearly see, it is NOT a photo! It is a painting. I can see the brush strokes and light and shadows are all wrong and then there is the artist's signature at the corner. Not to mention it adds nothing to an article on Erzurum. Let me hear one more time why it belongs here.--Murat (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't you first read what others have written? It IS a photograph. I had already given a full reference for it. Meowy 19:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Name

The article states that the name derives from the Persian "Arz-u Rum" but it should be from the Arabic "Arḍ-ar-Rūm" (ارض الروم). "Arḍ" literally means "land, region or country" while "Rūm" derives from "Roman" but means "Greek". Ordtoy (talk) 07:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"Rum" means Roman, here more specifically "Eastern Roman", or "Bizans". Word for "Greek: is different: Yunan. People of the time knew which was which.--Murat (talk) 16:45, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The inhabitants of the Byzantine empire, though ethnically mostly Greek, called themselves "Romans" because they considered their empire to be a direct continuation of the Roman empire. Meowy 19:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Hüdavendigâr, you are confusing modern Turkish and Arabic from the 10th century or so. Rūm comes from Roman but it had taken on a different meaning for the Arabs (and then the Turks etc). As you know, Rûm was also used in Ottoman times to refer to the Ottoman Empire's Greek inhabitants. Only after the establishment of the Greek state did need for the term Yunan emerge. Ordtoy (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You simply repeated what I said. I do not think I am the one who is cofused. You said: "...region or country" while "Rūm" derives from "Roman" but means "Greek"..." It clearly does NOT mean Greek. Your claim that Romans or Eastern Romans were "ethnic" Greek is rather baseless. "Greeks" of today are as much related to original "ethnic" (whatever that means) Greeks, as Egyptians of today are related to Pharoes. Many groups, tribes and nations were attracted around major Roman cities for economic and security reasons which also ended up adopting the superior culture of the ruling elite. That does not make them ethnic relatives. Balkans are (or were) full of muslim Slavs, who have no ethnic relationship to Turks (whatever that means also!). Eastern Romans carried and adopted Greek language and alphabet of course, but there are also many non-Arab nations which have adopted Arabic alphabet and even language who are not ethnic Arabs. It is all a moot discussion of course, whoever calls himself a Greek is a Greek in my book. Identity is a different issue than ethnicity or biology. Two are often confused, especially by nationalist minded.--Murat (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfair representation of Erzurum

Erzurum is a very beautiful city with lots of historic monuments and wonderful natural scenery. Yet, the only image of the city is a photo of dead Armenians. Massacres have taken place elsewhere in the world. How "fair" would be a Paris article represented by a single picture of the dead Parisians in 1789?

Armenians want their plight to be known, but they are going to extreme ways in using Misplaced Pages as a propaganda tool. Luckily, the "real world" out there is not run by the "imaginary world" of Misplaced Pages. Pantepoptes (talk) 02:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

See above. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Obviously Pantepoptes has chosen not the "see above" - he has made two more attempts at removing the massacre photo. He is also attempting to stuff the article full of off-topic images (perhaps thinking that they will hide the absence of on-topic ones like the massacre photo). For example, an image of a world map made by someone who happened to come from Erzurum - a map that doesn't show Erzurum and which wasn't even drawn in Erzurum - is not suitable for this article. Nor do images like the entrance to Erzurum airport (which, apart from the sign on it, is exactly the same as the entrance to every provincial airport in Turkey) add anything to the quality of the article! Meowy 22:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Meowy here. The world map image is off-topic and irrelevant. Erzurum was furthermore the site of a major massacre, not just any massacre, so the picture is justified. Lastly, the accusations of Armenians "going to extreme ways in using wikipedia as a propaganda tool" is subjective and empty, and moreover not surprising from someone who edits like a Turkish government publicist. --Athenean (talk) 22:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/Van_Resistance#Hamidian_Massacres

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