Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:28, 9 December 2005

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 00:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 13:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC).

• (Deeceevoice (talk · contribs))

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Description

I would first emphasise that User:Deeceevoice is a competent and valuable editor. However, I'm concerned by her attitude towards the Civility and No personal attacks policies: in short, it appears she doesn't think she need follow them. While everyone loses their cool from time to time -- and Deeceevoice seems to get a lot of nasty racist troll attention -- it seems that there's more to it than that. I would hope that this RfC would signal to Deeceevoice that, while she does some great work, she still needs to treat other editors with courtesy and respect.

I've asked Deeceevoice on three separate occasions to observe the policy, and have been dismissed out of hand (usually accompanied by further insults). Others have also tried.

I don't want this to eat up enormous amounts of time, so I've taken a selection of quotes from just User talk:Deeceevoice and User talk:Deeceevoice/Archive 1, rather than citing diffs. — Matt Crypto 14:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Diffs now added by User:Cryptic. — Matt Crypto 20:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Evidence of disputed behavior

From conversation with User:Zoe:

Hi. We don't know each other, as far as I can recall...I am, however, curious about your comment -- Don't ever, ever, EVER look for validation in the eyes of the enemy. I hope you don't feel like all of us are your enemy. Zoe 23:35, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

What? U want me 2 hold your little, white hand and sing "Kumbaya"? What the hell kinda comment is that? Don't insult my intelligence... deeceevoice 08:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

...I can only conclude you wanted to read some reassuring warm-and-fuzzy expression of brotherhood/sisterhood. No offense intended, but I got no time, no patience to stroke your psyche. Get a teddy bear. deeceevoice 21:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

From conversation with User:Matt Crypto:

Lookahere. When you've been subjected to half the shyt (check my page; the vandalism you see here is just a taste) that I have on this website, when you've walked in my shoes, then and only then should you ever dare to presume to come to my place and school me on comportment. When I need a lesson on playing nicey-nice to someone's irksome, naive bullcrap, I'll be sure to look you up. I don't do nice. In the meantime, kindly go to hell. *x* deeceevoice 05:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey, whatever floats your boat. Waste your time if that's what does it fuyyah. Do you really think some little twit instructing me in "civility" is going to change me? I find that mildly amusing. Thanks for the comic relief. Okay, I'm done w/you. Now go home. (yawn) *x* deeceevoice 10:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

From conversation with anon, who asked deeceevoice to follow Misplaced Pages:Civility:

Ha! Get a life, no-name. deeceevoice 01:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

From further conversation with User:Matt Crypto on the topic:

Do you really think I give a flying ****? Some friendly advice: don't waste your time.deeceevoice 01:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC) .

(With edit comments of "pathetic" and "Deleted annoying clutter from MY talk page" )

From conversation with User:Karmosin (Peter Isotalo):

And you're gonna cite Wiki etiquette about "civility"? ROTFLMBAO. How about the particular brand of Wiki "incivility" of ignorant and often arrogant white people presuming and assuming things about African American culture...It's been my experience that on Misplaced Pages, "civility" is the last refuge of clueless hacks.

Was I "mocking" you? Nope. If you find my plain-speak mocking, perhaps the situation being discussed reflects more on your hardheadedness than my "incivility." Did I say your obvious ignorance and apparent arrogance (or stubborness) make you a racist? Nope. But does the latter make you an "asshole"? Hey, if the shoe fits....

Oh. Did I fwyten duh widdow newbie? Oops. My bad. (In response to a comment about biting the newbies).

I grew tired of your whining, pedantic drivel long ago. Please don't bother to post here again. Any subsequent posts to this page you may leave simply will be deleted without being read. The door is now closed. *SLAM!* deeceevoice 18:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

From conversation with User:Sam Spade:

Stop buggin', bwoi. Go preach to someone who gives a damn. You're boring me. *yawn* Kindly refrain from responding; I'll simply delete any entry from you before reading it. You are not welcome here.deeceevoice 20:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

From conversation with User:Justforasecond:

Please don't visit my talk page w/inane messages.

One more thing. DO NOT tamper with my talk page. What I choose to keep or delete is strictly my prerogative. Per my earlier warning, I've deleted your changes -- your last contribution without reading it. (Poof!) Don't waste your time. deeceevoice 06:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Deeceevoice then deleted Justforasecond's comments from her talk page with edit summaries like "vandalism and "remove annoying clutter" .

From conversation with User:Jim Apple:

Stay the f*ck off my talk page. U ain't welcome here (edit summary "F*** you").

deeceevoice later apologized to me, citing confusion over thinking I was a troll, based on unnamed previous posts. My edit history before deeceevoice told me to get lost reveals that I had barely begun editing, and had been trollish in no way.

I'm not taking sides, but I thought both facts to be pertinent. (1. I didn't deserve it. 2. She apologized.) Jim Apple 06:32, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

To User:Matt Crypto in response to this RfC:

it amazes me that people have nothing better to do on this website than play Miss Manners with other adults like prissy, pedantic, insufferable, niggling, mealy-mouthed, self-righteous, tattletale brats. And, no. I'm not saying that to get your back up; it's simply what I honestly think.

Applicable policies

1. Misplaced Pages:Civility
2. Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

• See User talk:Deeceevoice

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

(sign with ~~~~)

1. — Matt Crypto 08:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
2. Peter 10:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
3. Sam Spade 15:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
4. Justforasecond 16:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

1. Robert McClenon 13:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
2. —Cryptic (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
3. Carbonite | Talk 17:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
4. brenneman 01:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
5. Sekicho 05:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
6. I agree that deeceevoice has been extremely uncivil in her actions, but I think even more important is the fact that her edits constantly break the NPOV policy, as she appears to only be here to push her Afrocentrist agenda and becomes abusive when people interfere with that in some way. I really think that's the larger problem that deserves comment and action on. DreamGuy 21:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
7. BorgQueen 23:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
8. Olorin28 02:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
9. — Chameleon 05:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
10. I support the comments of DreamGuy. CoYep 14:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
11. I agree with what DreamGuy said SuperBleda 17:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
12. --Edward Wakelin 19:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
13. :( —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-12-08 21:05:32Z

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

(A response to this RfC was given by Deeceevoice on her talk page which suggests that she may not have any interest in providing a response on this page. — Matt Crypto 21:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC))

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside view

Outside view by FrancisTyers

She's an excellent editor, certainly a much better writer than I am. Her approach to conversation is different from mine, but hey, people are different. Keep two things in mind; 1. this is the internet and 2. so what if she's abrasive, patronising, uncivil, whatever, it reflects badly on her, not the person on the receiving end.

If we had more editors like deecee, the wikipedia would be a much better place (she'd probably berate me for pathetic sentimentality with that last comment ^_______^). - FrancisTyers 17:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who don't endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. I cannot endorse this summary. Deeceevoice is by no means a "good" editor. She violates many wikipedia policies regularly. Furthermore, this is not a referendum on whether we *should* have civility policy at all, but whether deeceevoice has been breaking the policy that we do have. -Justforasecond 23:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by Guettarda

She's a good editor who's a tad abrasive when harrassed. I would be too if people posted a swastika and said "die nigger" on my talk page. Civility is a good thing and she should strive to be more polite, but a sense of humour and willingness to not take yourself too seriously is also valuable. While civility is valuable and important, so is the right of an editor to not be harrassed. Guettarda 18:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Amazing (Outside view by Zaphnathpaaneah)

Somone cited her because she took their content off of HER talk page, AFTER she had warned them. Justforasecond, I think thats lowwwwww.... Hey cite me while you are at it, I should have racked enough to join her. --Zaphnathpaaneah 18:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Guettarda 18:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
2. Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who don't endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. I think this summary completely misrepresents the disputed conduct. While the majority of diffs are from Deeceevoice's talk page, they are in response to multiple editors on many different topics. Users are still expected to act in a civil manner on their talk pages. Carbonite | Talk 18:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
2. This is an entirely disingenous summary. There are numerous other uncivil remarks quoted above. -Justforasecond 19:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
3. Most of the complaint does not concern the removal of content from her talk page. — Matt Crypto 20:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by Encyclopedist

I am a strong friend of Deeceevoice on this site, so I don't know if anyone is going to object to my views as being arbitrary. However, I do know that Deeceevoice, above all arguments, has done much to improve this site, and should be considered one of the valued colloborators here. This has not been the case, one need only look at her talk page to see hate filled vitriol and rascist comments that she has decided to post there (and I am not just talking about obvious vandalism, I am talking about some contributors) as "gratitude" for her hard work here. I am not going to condone any NPA or POV actions that Deeceevoice may have; but I do think that it is important to see firstly that 1. as an African American and as an avid intellectual; she may and does have more to offer in terms of contributions to Afrocentrism articles, and this may seem to be POV to others, as on the talk page I have seen several preconceived, biased and rascists notions against her and her edits. No, it is not right to insult another Wikipedian, however, this argument is inheretently excluding the fault that Deeceevoice's opponents here and outside this RfA have shown questionable civility. In Deeceevoice I see a very very strong person; who has convinced me to stay on a site where I am bombarded by hateful racism, along with arrogant and abrasive editors. As a contributor on Misplaced Pages, she has stayed through several cases of attacks against her and insults, but only to contribute more to this site. Her attitudes in my opinion do shed light on the fact that she is trying to give attention to several themes that are ignored and often of poor quality on Misplaced Pages. Black topics here are often ignored, so Deecee's efforts to try to improve such have been criticized as POV. THEY ARE RE NOT. They are from a different, and interestingly enough, an AFRICAN AMERICAN perspective. Does being African American give here the right to add POV in articles? No. But does being a scholarly intellectual with African descent give her the right to contribute to sites that are often ignored by the monotone community of Misplaced Pages? Yes. Sure, I know that people will probably not endorse or agree with what I am saying; I have been in a number of debates here (i.e. VfDs, RfAs etc.) , and frankly, every one has been like pulling teeth. I predict dissent and naysayers leaving nasty comments under this message; but I do not have time for any arguments. I could sit here and type all day about the excellent contributions Deecee has created for this site; and similarly, write about the rascists and hate filled words directed towards her. Concerning NPA, it is comprehensible that Deecee voice will get angry. The problem here is that the complainants are focusing on bad points when Deeceevoice finally did insult malactors for their insults; but never look into the times when she has brushed off such foolishness. Bottom line, I have no qualms against anyone here (at least not anymore); and I do consider Deeceevoice to be a true friend. My argument stands as it is. I know that no one will agree with it, and I will hear people complaining with little subcaps below, as if I am going to give them the time of day to respond to them. I have a life, I suggest others get the same. And concerning Deeceevoice not resppnding, I wouldn't either: nothing ever comes of it, people here are ready to crucify her since she has been here. It will just be a long argument, but the outcome is the same. Deeceevoice, stay strong. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Above all, I see just as much, if not more, fault in her opponents. There will never be an equal voice in Misplaced Pages as the majority of the contributors here are white; and a person decides to focus in an Afrocentric perspective. Deeceevoice has been shown little respect for her contributions, and I beleive that instead of putting this RfC (which is not to the standard of what it should be, neither in format or whatever "evidence" you can find against her) we should commend her. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 19:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. — PhilHibbs | talk 12:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
2. - FrancisTyers 17:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
3. Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Users who don't endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Again, I don't believe there's any dispute about Deeceevoice's article contributions. It's her lack of civility in certain situations that is an issue. There may be many reasons why she responded in the manner that she did, but there aren't any excuses. No personal attacks and civility exist to make a better editing environment for all editors. Carbonite | Talk 20:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
2. I tried to emphasise that Deeceevoice is "a competent and valuable editor", indeed, that's the first thing I wrote in this RfC. I'm certainly not here to crucify anyone. However, I believe there is a legitimate problem with her completely ignoring the personal attacks and civility policies, and not just with trolls and vandals, but with editors in good standing. As I also said in the introduction to this RfC, I'm sure that Deeceevoice gets "a lot of nasty racist troll attention", which is unfortunate, but that does not excuse her behaviour, and she has never backed down an inch or apologised for her remarks. Also, I would conjecture she might get more support from the community if she didn't spit in people's faces (metaphorically) when they make friendly guestures (as is the case with Zoe, documented above) — Matt Crypto 20:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
3. deeceevoice violated Civility policies, as seen above. There is no lack of context. Users with no history with dcv have come to her talk page and asked for citations or for civility and been treated with complete incivility. The civility violations needs to be acknowledged in *any* honest summary, so I cannot endorse this. Beyond on her user-talk page, deeceevoice has attacked people on article-talk pages, and regularly chooses to escalate, rather than to defuse situations chooses to escelate verbal confrontations. In the "Wareware" confrontation encylopedist cites, she makes fun of an asian editors genital size; perhaps he instigated the conflict, but this is completely unacceptable behavior nontheless. I would also like to dispute the claim that deeceevoice's is a "good" editor and do not agree that she deserves credit for her "viewpoint". We all are supposed to have the same viewpoint here -- the NEUTRAL viewpoint. Most of her edits lack any citations. In fact, she considers it vandalism to request citations. -Justforasecond 01:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
4. I would support the comments of Justforasecond; deeceevoice's contributions to the Afrocentrism article have been largely NPOV and he/she has posted attacks on others and accused them of vandalism in response to their edits. A number of his/her contributions to the article have been of questionable neutrality and factual accuracy. He/she is neither civil nor a good editor. 62.25.106.209 13:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
5. I have seen a lack of civility and definite PoV in the Afrocentrism article and talk. Apropos of Encyclopedist's comments, I'm not sure what this means: "Black topics here are often ignored, so Deecee's efforts to try to improve such have been criticized as POV. THEY ARE RE NOT. They are from a different, and interestingly enough, an AFRICAN AMERICAN perspective." I don't get how having a perspective is different from having a point of view... --Edward Wakelin 19:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
6. Misplaced Pages does not have an "eye for an eye" policy, as far as I'm aware. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-12-08 21:08:27Z

Outside view by Jmabel

Deeceevoice is one of the best contributors I've worked with on Misplaced Pages. Definitely not the queen of mellow, but that's not what we are here for. In terms of civility, she is certainly more sinned against than sinning. Yes, occasionally she takes offense sooner than she might, but, in case you folk haven't noticed, on the whole she is doing good work in an often hostile environment. On the whole, my response to the complaints above can be summed up in the words of a certain ex-girlfriend of mine in a similar situation (I was not, by the way, the person toward whom it was directed): "Cry me a river, white boy." -- Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

Someone asked me to comment here. I'm not interested in getting deeply involved, so I'll just point out that her edits are those of a vulgar racist. — Chameleon 01:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Chameleon, I've removed part of your comment. On an RfC about civility and personal attacks, it's not particularly helpful to add your own attacks. — Matt Crypto 17:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It was a description of her behaviour. Your behaviour is that of a censor. — Chameleon 21:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks. This RfC is about personal attacks...so...? — Matt Crypto 22:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Where did this "users who don't endorse this summary" thing come from? Never seen it before. It seems to undercut any defense by allowing a rebuttal in the same section, while the original complainants get a section to themselves. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)