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Paragraph discrediting ACM

Is this edit here necessary? What do third-party and mediators think? Is it necessary to put an entire paragraph discrediting the American Anti-Cult movement, when 1) it's already in the "Academic reception" article and 2) it is a direct response to the cult-related statements of the ACM and aimed at discrediting it? Colipon+(Talk) 04:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that paragraph was needed when you insisted on the ACM's views as being valid. Now I think it would use a rewording. Perhaps Olaf can do it? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 06:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In my personal view, when you present an argument or a claim, which has no standing in the academic community - it ought to be made clear. Otherwise, we'd just be deceiving and misleading the reader. And, as editors here, we ought to contribute in a responsible manner - not turn articles into a collection of random, cherry-picked statements. Since Singer's view is obviously fringe - either it should be mentioned with appropriate background, or not mentioned at all. If editors feel we are giving undue weight to a fringe perspective by discussing it in the main article, the entire section related to singer's statement ought to be moved to the respective sub-article.

Regarding the paragraph pointing out CCP's manipulating on ACM stuff to bolster it's persecutory campaign.. to claim the entire paragraph "discredits" the ACM is quite misleading. What it does is delineate the view of the academic community on an issue of central relevance to this topic. Even if it ends up "discrediting" anything, it is not the editor who added the material who has "discredited" it, but the mainstream academic community. And, hence, the material is obviously of relevance and deserving of the reader's attention.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 06:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Criticism against the anti-cult movement should be in the article about that movement, not here. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 07:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dilip rajeev, which wikipedia policy are you referring to in stating that "Since Singer's view is obviously fringe - either it should be mentioned with appropriate background, or not mentioned at all." Please note that I do not agree with the claim that Singer's view would be a fringe view, I am just asking you this as a matter of procedure. Since Singer's view is obviously fringe - either it should be mentioned with appropriate background, or not mentioned at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PerEdman (talk • contribs) 17:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

By "fringe" I meant not-in-line-with / in-direct-conflict-with the perspective of mainstream scholars on the topic. Please see my edit below as well.

I did not ask why you believe Singer's view is "obviously fringe", but even so I do not agree that ANY opinion not in line with mainstream is automatically fringe. What I did ask was which wikipedia policy you are using as the basis of the claim that her opinion should either be mentioned "with apropriate background, or not mentioned at all". I'm sorry I was unclear. PerEdman (talk) 08:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Dilip rajeev (talk) 17:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The article in Journal of Church and State is named Imposed limitations on freedom of religion in China and the margin of appreciation doctrine: a legal analysis of the crackdown on the Falun Gong and other "evil cults". It is a Falun Gong related article that calls the ACM a "lackey of the party". What Edelman and Richardson say about the ACM discourse in relation to the 'cult' allegations is extremely relevant for this group of articles. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 07:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems that the court ruling is specifically about something called "Theory of Coercive Persuasion", and not about Singer's expertise in cults, and not about Singer's views in general, and not about his view of Falun Gong? I understand that Margaret Singer testified in some 200 court cases before her brainwashing theory fell in disgrace in front of the APA and then her testimony was no longer accepted? Also, those three sources are two primary (court reports) and one secondary. The secondary one is "Women, the Law, and Cults" which actually defends Singer's theory of "cult rape" and brainwashing, I quoth:

"But not all courts have accepted the premise that cults impose mind control. For instance, in United States v. Fishman, a California federal court excluded proffered testimony by experts, including that of Dr. Singer, because the Court was not convinced that the application of coercive persuasion theory to religious cults was widely accepted in the medical community (...) The Fishman court recognized the historical underpinnings of the theory of coercive persuasion as having its beginnings in studies of American prisoners of war during the Korean conflict in the 1950s. (...) Nonetheless, the Fishman court did not accept the coercive persuasion theory in the context of cults. In addition, courts are reluctant to embrace the application of coercive persuasion theory to cults for reasons of freedom of religion under the federal and state Constitutions. (...) There are substantial hurdles to overcome in prosecuting cult-rape--such as courts’ emphasis on the use of force, despite the victim’s mental vulnerabilities (...) Nevertheless, law is always evolving and as more cult-rape cases are brought, perhaps changes beneficial to victims will occur."

So, that text is using two primary sources to make a conclusion that the secondary source doesn't do. Also, it's unrelated to Falun Gong being identified as a cult, since it doesn't say anywhere that Singer can't recognize cults, quite the other way around, it says that she is an expert in cults. This should be removed from here and merged to the Margaret Singer article where it belongs. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how that long quote of yours is related to the issues at hand, but I agree that these court case references aren't really that good and can be removed. Frankly, I haven't thought about this matter for a while, as I've focused on what is discussed above. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 08:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No. The issue that I am trying to bring to light here is that it is completely unecessary and unreasonable to bring in outside criticism of a source just make a critical source appear as though they are invalid. Colipon+(Talk) 14:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a very real question how much information regarding the American anticult movement should be in this, the parent article, at all. Personally, I would think that most of that content should be in some more focused article. Having said that, I have to believe that inclusion of so much material is, at least to me, a fairly blatant violation of WP:UNDUE. Also, regarding the "reliability" of the AAM, it is our general policy that we don't duplicate material in multiple articles. I think most of that content should probably be included in some article directly about the AAM, as that is the most reasonable place to see it. If there is a link to that article, wherever it is, in this article, that should probably be enough, although it might not be unreasonable to add a simple clause regarding the group's reliably sourced apparent opinions on the matter. John Carter (talk) 14:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree 100% with John Carter. Do you think a sanction based on arbitration rulings is necessary here for these POV edits? Colipon+(Talk) 14:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with John Carter. The paragraph is out of place. Criticism of the "anti-cult movement", who they might be, who they might serve, is better treated in a separate article and should under no circumstances feature in this article in anything but a passing mention. PerEdman (talk) 15:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment. As I said, I don't oppose to removing the references to the court cases. But there must be a subsection in one of the Falun Gong articles (probably "Reception of Falun Gong") discussing the 'cult' allegations – I assume we all agree on that. In that section, the quote from Journal of Church and State is perfectly valid, as it is not merely a general critique of the ACM, but directly points out how its discourse has been utilised to legitimise violations of international law in the CCP's persecution of Falun Gong practitioners. I would also like to add that I see Colipon's comment above as an indication of extremely bad faith. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Edelman/Richardson article is now weblinked and can be read by anyone who wants to form their own opinion of what it is and is not. PerEdman (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

A suggestion

Those who have taken time to research this topic must be aware by now that Falun Gong is not considered a "cult" in mainstream academia ( Ownby, Schechter, Penny, Kilgour Matas, Amnesty Reports, US Congress Resolutions, Congressional Reports - all address how the label is merely a manufactured tool of repression ). And I believe I can safely assume experienced editors here would have no trouble accepting the mainstream view on the topic.

And this Singer stuff - I believe I can say, without fear of mistake, is fringe.

I am of the opinion a significant portion of the reception/academic views section ought not to be wasted for the sake of presenting and then countering a fringe view. Instead, we ought to give more attention to Falun Gong's reception in mainstream academia. We could look into many sources by experts in the field for this matter. And reception by academia certainly goes far beyond the refutation of an engineered 'cult' label.

My point being: Lets break out of this - 1. present a fringe view 2. use up a paragraph to counter it - style of editing and just directly convey to the reader the mainstream's perspective. Regarding the 'cult' label: its origin ( 3 months into the persecution when legislation was created to outlaw "cults" and retroactively applied to Falun Gong - effectively "legalizing" the persecutory campaign through use of the label ), academic perspectives on the label, etc., could be discussed in detail and with appropriate background and context, in the sub-article.

Also, presenting a fringe view to the reader without proper context is, in my opinion, to be avoided, if possible. We can't just present a fringe view as if it were something that has standing in the academic community. And if such a view has no standing, the question then is why would it be relevant enough to be presented without explanation, context or background.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There are editors here who deemed it 'significant minority'. I would not go so far as to base my argumentation on excluding the viewpoint entirely. Let's see how the situation develops after we rename the "Academic views" article to Reception of Falun Gong. Giving due weight to sources, no more or less, is the only way out of this situation in the long term. The only thing I'm hoping now is getting into an efficient workflow. The (content reform : discussion) ratio is frustratingly low at the moment. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dilips' resequencing

The reason I reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Falun_Gong&oldid=306632489 is that it put more text by Penny in a strange place: Penny is mentioned already at the start of the section, why he reappears further down in the text is confusing, especially when the reason for the edit was "sequencing". PerEdman (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Reason of the edit was not reordering alone. I thought the summary made it clear. It was also to expand a bit on the perspective conveyed by Penny. The start of the section merely says Penny has commented on the matter. I don't understand why it is a "strange place" to present an academic perspective from Penny - could you kindly clarify? I am restoring the material and will make things clearer in my edit summary.

The Change I made is:

• Addition of: "Benjamin Penny considers many aspects of Falun Gong "deeply traditional", at the same time, the system, "completely modern." According to him, "The best way to describe Falun Gong is as a cultivation system. Cultivation systems have been a feature of Chinese life for at least 2,500 years." "

• Swapping the position of two paragraphs. The purpose being to bring focus to the perspective of mainstream scholars.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The "mainstream scholar" Penny was, as I said, mentioned already earlier in the first paragraph. Adding him later on doesn't focus the perspective, it divides the comments of Penny into two segments. Also I do not understand in what way you "bring focus" by moving those segments around. Are you trying to move sources that have something in common closer together? Then why is Penny suddenly in two places? I still do not agree with this edit. Perhaps you can explain better why you did it? PerEdman (talk) 07:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Add what Colipon noticed below, with Dilip rajeev's version of the order, the word "cult" is first mentioned by someone stating that it is "not" a cult. This is a very odd order of events. If something has happened, and that something is first mentioned by quoting someone who says "This something has not happened", you would become suspicious immediately, I hope. PerEdman (talk) 09:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Where in the article should "cult" first be mentioned?

Dilip's reshuffle directed my attention to something funny. You have to read 2/3 of the extremely long article before you learn that anyone in the world considers FG to be a cult. This is currently mentioned for the first time when a person denying this characterisation is quoted. I think it should be mentioned in one of the first paragraphs that FG is considered a cult. Anyone got a suggestion for whom we should quote on this matter? Martin Rundkvist (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a majority view that the 'cult' allegation is an intimate part of the discourse that attempts to legitimise the persecution. It should be first mentioned in this context, no matter where we do it. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 18:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe it's a small minority view, myself. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I too would like to see reliable sources to substantiate that claim. Personally, I'm unsure whether the inflammatory word "cult" should be used much at all, given its emotional impact and lack of clear meaning. Having said that, I do think that the reasons for that term being used should probably be at least allunded to in the lead section, which is supposed to summarize all the contnet of the article, and that the specific negative criticisms of Falun Gong should be discussed in the "Reception" section before the the apparent "responses" to those claims, because that seems to me at least to be pretty much inherently logical. We don't after all in wikipedia don't they "they're wrong" before going into detail about what they said that was allegedly wrong first. John Carter (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Instead of mentioning early on that FG is considered a "cult", repeated attempts have been made to call FG a "controversial movement". These attempts have sooner or later been reverted as part of the continuous whitewashing campaign. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 19:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I can't see any problem with using the phrase "controversial movement", because (1) the controversy with the Chinese government is fairly clearly verifiable, and (2) the phrase itself doesn't indicate how well justified in fact the controversy is. There have been numerous controversies in Hollywood over less than well sourced allegations (lies), and I think most readers when seeing that phrase would not rush to any conclusions but rather see what the controversy is about in the following sentences or paragraphs before jumping to any conclusions. John Carter (talk) 19:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think "controversial movement" would be a good phrase to use here.--Edward130603 (talk) 19:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

We should mention in the lead that there are a number of controversies related to Falun Gong, including most notably its suppression by the CCP. We could then add that its characterization as a cult is one of the controversies. Something like "Although some have characterized Falun Gong as a cult, the mainstream of academic opinion rejects this characterization." And then you better back that up with a bunch of citations to reliable sources. Actually, it would be better to find a really reliable source who says "the academic mainstream rejects the cult characterization" rather than providing citations to individual sources that reject the characterization. The problem here being that it is difficult to prove that 5 or even 10 sources represent the academic mainstream whereas one single reliable source saying that it is the position of the academic mainstream is a much stronger case. --Richard (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I support Richard's approach. There used to be a thread on this talk page where I actually defended using the word 'controversial' (but for some reason, I couldn't find it in the archives – has somebody made a mistake? – so I had to link to page history instead). Martin's recent edit is OK with me. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 20:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Richard. State there is controversy, then list the controversies. Very good. PerEdman (talk) 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Mrund, I beg to differ with you on your blanket characterization of Falun Gong as a "controversial movement." What is this "controversial movement" term meant to covey there in the lead? Isn't it in direct conflict the majority of recent scholarship? Why exactly do you prefer the term with vague connotations to say, The "peaceful and nonviolent form of personal belief and practice with millions of adherents in the People's Republic of China" ( House Concurrent Resolution 188 ) or "The traditional system of self-cultivation" ( Penny, Ownby, etc. ), or The "spiritual way of living" ( World Book Encyclopaedia, 2002)?

Such vague characterization is not only misleading but the connotations carried by it are in conflict with mainstream scholarship. Dilip rajeev (talk) 20:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It becomes really symbolic when we begin debating about where to place a few paragraphs, to show the extent of how far this subtle POV-pushing can go.Colipon+(Talk) 20:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, saying that Falun Gong is "controversial" is clearly quite reasonable. David Ownby writes: "Falun Gong is undoubtedly controversial" to begin a dissertation that is endlessly cited in these pages. Olaf has read this document, but insists that "controversial movement" be left out. Looks like to me like an all-out attempt to just censor anything that would portray Falun Gong in a bad light, or even a slightly negative characterization is frowned upon by these users. Colipon+(Talk) 21:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Great, so then we'll have a to-and-fro in the lede, where Falun gong is first characterised as "controversial", then "a peaceful form of personal belief," then "a cult," then something that is so healthy and good, etc.. can't we just play it really dead-pan and not include value judgements without context (and the lede does not particularly allow for great amounts of contextualisation, as you might imagine...--Asdfg12345 21:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh and BTW, if it's just the sentence "The Encyclopedia Britannica characterises Falun Gong as "controversial."" then I think that's not a problem; it's just when the word is used as a descriptor that the sentence loses its balance. It's like if we had "Falun Gong is a peaceful spiritual practice..." or whatever. Just don't use these kind of adjectives; if we ref the controversial thing, that's okay. We had that in before. I'm actually just going to put it right back!--Asdfg12345 21:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What about "David Ownby says Falun Gong is 'undoubtedly controversial'"? He seems to receive a lot of attention on this article. Colipon+(Talk) 21:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Colipon, regarding your comment about what I "insist", perhaps you'd better check your eyesight. I can't imagine you would say that on purpose. Wait. Or can I...? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Olaf Stephanos, just say what you want to say without malice, or don't say it at all. PerEdman (talk) 07:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

So you don't consider "Olaf has read this document, but insists that "controversial movement" be left out. Looks like to me like an all-out attempt to just censor anything that would portray Falun Gong in a bad light, or even a slightly negative characterization is frowned upon by these users" a wee bit malicious? Especially since the comment resulted from not even reading what I wrote above, but Colipon's automatic assumption that this must be my opinion? Especially while he is at this very moment preparing to lose his face by blatantly misusing the arbitration enforcement process against me to gain an upper hand in content disputes? And while you say disparaging things, such as "focussing on improving the article is still a better cause than putting too much weight on the opinions of disruptive editors" (and did not even understand what HappyInGeneral said below)? Alright, perhaps it is somewhat malicious. Sorry about that. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 09:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent)

From Olaf: "There used to be a thread on this talk page where I actually defended using the word 'controversial' (but for some reason, I couldn't find it in the archives – has somebody made a mistake?"

From Colipon: "Olaf has read this document, but insists that "controversial movement" be left out."

Based on WP:AGF this must be a mistaken attribution.--HappyInGeneral (talk) 08:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It "must" not. Be careful about citing this principle too aggressively. An exhortation to "Assume Good Faith" can itself be seen as a breach of this very tenet, since it fails to assume the assumption of good faith if the perceived assumption of bad faith is not clear-cut. To continue to assume good faith from a person who writes about magic spells and checking others eyesight would be naive in the extreme. Focussing on improving the article is still a better cause than putting too much weight on the opinions of disruptive editors. PerEdman (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Richardson/Edelman; Discrediting Margaret Singer (cont'd)

We need to make a decision on whether or not to leave the paragraphs in the article. It seems neither Eric Naval nor PerEdman want to keep it in there (Mrund also said Singer's criticism belongs to the article on Singer, not on the FLG article). Olaf's justification and the defence of asdfg and dilip is unreasonable. The content is seen elsewhere, not to mention its sole purpose here is to discredit the ACM (discredit any sources critical of Falun Gong) so criticism can't stay alone. I propose the paragraph be removed or the content restructured by a third-party user to reflect NPOV. Colipon+(Talk) 23:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I meant that the references to criticism of the Anti-Cult movement belong in the article about that movement. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Agreed. They should be in the ACM article, not the Falun Gong article. Colipon+(Talk) 07:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

My opinion is that the paraphrasing of Richardson/Edelman is far too meaty to be placed in an article about Falun Gong and I have the creeping suspicion that it has been readded in this manner just because the source "should" be included somehow. That it has been rewritten is a result of my earlier criticism that the Richardson/Edelman article did not in fact state what it was claimed in the Wiki as stating. The current version is Olaf's attempt to save the source from exclusion. But if it cannot be concisely stated what relevance the source has to Falun Gong, it makes for much better readability not to include that source. In my opinion, that is. Misplaced Pages is no place for essays. PerEdman (talk) 07:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Kick it out, belongs into Academic views on Falun Gong Seb az86556 (talk) 08:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment. The sentence discrediting Singer can be removed, while the Richardson/Edelman reference belongs to the same place where we discuss the views of the ACM. I'm not saying it should be here or there, as long as it's not removed from that context. It seems a bit bloated at the moment and should be rewritten (I can do that), but it is a) a more highly ranking source (peer reviewed) than the ones you suggest about Singer, Rahn, and others; b) directly related to Falun Gong, because the Richardson/Edelman article is specifically about how the ACM's unscientific discourse has been used to discriminate against Falun Gong. If you have any problems with that, consult the NPOV noticeboard, or write a request for comment. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 08:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

David Ownby (cont'd)

I would also like to bring to attention the fact that David Ownby is quoted endlessly on this article but the fact that he says "Falun Gong without a doubt controversial" somehow never makes it onto the article. Ownby also says Li Hongzhi is a "obscure former clerk" and "trumpet player" on the very first page of his essay. Thoughts? I suggest we insert the "without a doubt controversial" line in the Ownby section of "reception". There's an on-going attempt to hide this and only show Ownby's "positive reflections" of Falun Gong. Colipon+(Talk) 23:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Good, but keep it short. Anything beyond short goes into Academic views on Falun Gong Seb az86556 (talk) 08:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ownby did write a lot of things. When you include something from him, please make sure that it is in it's proper context. For example he did explain what he meant in controversial, otherwise if you keep bare just the word controversial itself, it does not say anything actually, but it is a loaded word in the sense that people might imagine just about anything based on it. This is good only if we would like to write a WP:SOAP and would like to give a certain light and music to a painting. To avoid that, see Richardson's advice , so far this approach seems to be the most attributed and thus it is the most fare. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 08:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Why would a Misplaced Pages editor NOT use quotes in proper context, HappyInGeneral? PerEdman (talk) 08:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Mistakes or hidden agenda, would you suggest any other reason? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 09:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume a mistake or a hidden agenda in this case. PerEdman (talk) 09:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Choosing the most relevant quotes is always difficult. I suggest getting your hands on Falun Gong and the Future of China by David Ownby. It was published in 2008 and is therefore more recent than the article in question. I agree that saying "Falun Gong is without a doubt controversial" without elaborations on why Ownby thinks that way looks like cherry-picking, unless we write a honest, truthful summary of the article to accompany it. Case in point, Ownby has also said that "neither Falun Gong nor Li Hongzhi were particularly controversial in the beginning." ("The Falun Gong in the New World," European Journal of East Asian Studies, Sep2003, Vol. 2 Issue 2, p 306) I think that quote says a lot more; it admits that Falun Gong became controversial later (because of the CCP's reaction), but also points out what Ownby thinks about Falun Gong's initial reception. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 09:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the Reception of Falun Gong (currently Academic Views) has to be made extremely long before we can start abridging it. Only at the point when we have a lot of different material from various researchers can we start to see how the article should be structured, what themes are prominent, which views should be presented together, and what is the most concise way to express what is said in a particular source. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 09:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Innocent concerns from the univolved

Why are there so many spin-offs to this article, the content of which is regurgitated in this article?

• Teachings of Falun Gong has its own article, should be kept brief here
• Persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China has its own article, should be kept brief here
• Reports of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China has its own article, should not be in here at all

What this article needs is

• Lead with infobox at top
• History
  • Origin with link to "Teachings"
• Reception with link to "persecution"
  • Membership
• References
• navbox

Everything else is completely redundant. Slash it. What concerns me the most is that parallel universes are evolving, either conflating everything or creating contradicting entries. You guys can fight over "cult" or not in the persecution-article, over the organ-thing in that article, and over the beliefs in the next. Keep it separate. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It is standard practice for any subject, particularly religious groups, which have received significant coverage in the reliable press regarding their teachings, history, conflicts, etc., to have separate articles on those matters. It is also generally the case according to WP:SS that the most important of those articles should be spun off leaving a summary in its place. I have every reason to believe that such was what was initially intended here. The fact that the articles have perhaps suffered in terms of content for whatever reason is another matter entirely. Regarding the use of the word "cult", I tend to agree that that is a rather low priority for this article, and regret that it gets as much attention as it has. However, whether for good or ill, such discussion is not infrequent in articles about controversial subjects. John Carter (talk) 21:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree that extremely lengthy 'cult' discussion is completely unecessary. But there's been endless discussion in the 29 or so archives for this page about all of Falun Gong's controversies and content critical of Falun Gong, and for some reason none of them ever seem to stay on the article for longer than a couple of hours without being removed, moved, shortened, discredited, "restructured" or minimzed. It's completely unreasonable. Colipon+(Talk) 21:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

My point was not against the existence of those spin-offs. I am for it. My point was the excessive length of this article. It's almost becoming so detailed that the spin-offs are redundant. Almost everything that's in the spin-offs has now been fudged into this one. I say cut this article to the bare minimum and then let interested readers go to each in-depth coverage. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

At 69kB, this really isn't that long. I've seen other articles, like Catholic Church, which weigh in at 187 kB. If the subject is one which has a lot of information about it available, and if a lot of that is meaningful enough to be covered in the main article to at least some degree, then articles get rather long. I'm not disputing that the article could use some serious editing, but at this point the article's length probably isn't one of the highest priorities. John Carter (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That is true. My goal is to keep the edit-warring and endless rants compartmentalized where they belong. I would advocate the same approach if this was 200AD and we're writing about emerging Christianity. I would transform this article into a sort of "portal" with a pseudo-dablink on top

This article is a basic introduction to the history and reception of the group. For related topics such as beliefs and controversies, please use the navigation box or the main-article links.

That would save us a lot of trouble and keep things apart. I know it's a bold suggestion, but after 29 pages of rants, someone needs to give a different approach here. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I've said elsewhere that I myself agree that there seems to me to be a bit of an effort to try to cram too much material into too few articles, so I'm not sure I disagree with you particularly. The question there is whether the different structure would itself create more disagrement, and possibly cause, god help us, even more problems. I would like to see more effort made on what seem to me the more obvious child articles, though. History of Falun Gong in particular seems to me to be an obvious article that could cover a lot of this material which doesn't yet exist. John Carter (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed here. I'm merely concerned about structure. I have no interested in these (often childish tit-for-tat) discussions. I look at everything with the eyes of an uninvolved reader who wants to actually learn something. A guiding structure would help. Right now, it feels like you walk into a room where everyone wants to be the first to yell meticulous details into your ear. That can come later and in the child-article. The larger picture has to be the "welcoming ceremony." Seb az86556 (talk) 22:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I have now boldly implemented these. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly support this new structure revision for these articles and agree with Ohconfucius' edits. Now the article will be easier to work with. Colipon+(Talk) 06:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with the new structure in the hope that only one or two articles can focus on the points of contention among us while perhaps the Falun Gong article can gather such information that we can gain consensus on... HOWEVER... I would like to point out the Jimbo quote in WP:Criticism again, which I happen to agree with. Putting all your criticism (or "reception" or "review") in one segment or article, rather than making it a natural part of the ongoing text, inherently means that you are being conciously uncritical in the rest of the text, and that's hardly NPOV. But.. I think we can still include all angles in all articles. PerEdman (talk) 07:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

1. ^ Cite error: The named reference pennyharrold was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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