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Revision as of 15:13, 21 August 2009

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This page is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 06:20, January 4, 2025 (JST, Reiwa 7) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. WikiProject Japan to do list: edit history watch purge Peer review: None A-class review: None Featured content candidates –  Articles: None Pictures: None Lists: None Good article nominations: Vinland Saga (TV series), Godzilla Minus One Add requested images to articles that need them. Pages for Deletion: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions. Improve and expand Japan-related stubs. Create some requested articles. Help translate an article from the Japanese Misplaced Pages into English. Assess unassessed articles

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Preserving original formatting of Roman characters in titles of Japanese media

Regarding the section on "Titles of books and other media", I understand that the policy is to follow conventional English formatting guidelines when displaying titles, even if the original title uses Roman characters in an unconventional way (for example, using all caps or all lowercase). While this is sensible, I am concerned that by not displaying the original formatting at all, we are losing information about the works in question, and the specific formatting used may be relevant to understanding the author's intention behind writing the title in a given way. As such, I think it makes sense to treat titles that use unconventional formatting of Roman characters as though they were titles originally in Japanese. One would then not omit the original formatting altogether, but only use it once to indicate the original formatting, in the same way one would write the original title if it were in Japanese. The {{Nihongo}} tag could suit this purpose, though the '?' help link seems a bit out of place. An example of this would be the title of Buono!'s seventh single, originally written "MY BOY". One could display it as

• "My Boy" (MY BOY)

in places where displaying the original Japanese spelling of a title would be appropriate (the header of an article or a track listing, for example), and write "My Boy" elsewhere. I have seen this used in a few places, but for most cases in which Roman characters are used unconventionally, the original formatting has been omitted (sometimes after editing to conform to capitalization guidelines), which makes for a slightly less informative article. We preserve the original formatting of Japanese titles with regard to whether they use kanji or hiragana or katakana when we display them in Japanese, so why not preserve the original use of Roman characters as well? Kirarin☆Snow ☃ 02:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Because typographical gimmickry (or, if you prefer, results of idiosyncratic views of the significance of capitalization) such as this are endemic in Japan and common elsewhere too. We distinguish between hiragana and katakana because neither SCREAMS for attention over the other, and where appropriate we also distinguish between traditionally complex and recently simplified hanzi/kanji, because such distinctions don't give anyone a typographic megaphone, because they help in database searches and so forth, and because they don't give a green light to people outside Japan wanting more attention for themselves. If "My Boy" had been written in red, would you want {{Nihongo|"My Boy"|<span style="color:#ff0000">My Boy</span>}}? Shall we distinguish between hankaku and zenkaku lettering? How about double underlines, smiley marks and the like? But all that's a bit hypothetical; rather, let's stick to the actual example: What might the full capitalization of "MY BOY" tell anyone about the song? -- Hoary (talk) 02:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that idiosyncratic uses of capitalization are generally consistent throughout a work (e.g. front of CD disc, album cover, spine, etc.), while things such as color or typeface aren't. I was also under the impression that differences in capitalization were preserved in databases, but a quick search through the JASRAC database suggests that all Roman character titles are shown in all caps, regardless of the original capitalization, so I'm not so sure anymore. Still, the representation in a database doesn't necessarily reflect the author's intentions. As for the "MY BOY" example, to me the choice of all caps lends the title a more emphatic but serious flavor (without the mildly comic effect of, say, an exclamation point: "My Boy!"), which is appropriate to the tone of the song. And supposing the title were "My Boy!", should we omit the exclamation point? What about "My! Boy"? I've seen titles with unconventional placement of exclamation points, so it's not clear what differentiates idiosyncratic punctuation from idiosyncratic capitalization with regard to this policy (if indeed there is a difference).

To go with another example, Buono!'s sixth single is originally written "co・no・mi・chi". What is the proper way to represent this title in Misplaced Pages? "Cono Michi"? And should we not even mention the original punctuation and spelling altogether? In this case, the unusual spelling of a Japanese title suggests that there could be some purpose other than typographical decoration (I'm not saying there is one, but I don't think that's a question for Misplaced Pages editors to decide).

You do raise a good point with the hankaku/zenkaku question. Leaving aside the question of half-width and full-width forms of Roman letters (they seem, at least from my limited experience, to some extent interchangeable in official representations of titles, so perhaps this would be along the lines of color or typeface), how should we treat typographical flourishes in kana? A title could distinguish between hankaku and zenkaku forms, or use small versions of kana when regular-size versions are conventional (for example, S/mileage's single "ぁまのじゃく", which has a small 'ぁ' instead of the conventional full-size 'あ'). Do we leave the title the way it was originally written, or display it in a more conventional form (as "あまのじゃく")? And if we do we leave it as "ぁまのじゃく", what makes this different from capitalization of Roman characters? Kirarin☆Snow ☃ (talk) 04:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It's fine to use the formatting (other than colors, as mentioned by Hoary) used in the original when the title is first mentioned at the beginning of the opening paragraph. The article title, infobox, and any subsequent uses should be using standard capitalization and formatting. As for your question about punctuation, if the title has an exclamation point, question mark, or other punctuation, it's fine to use that in the title wherever it appears. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Preserve special characters in album title?

Singer Ayumi Hamasaki has an album properly titled A Song for ××. It's (commonly) mistakenly written A Song for XX, and currently, Hamasaki's article writes it the latter way. Without getting too much into the meaning of the title, the x-like characters, batsu, can mean "fill in the blank", and this is the meaning the singer intended (they're not supposed to be x's.) (In fact, the title is pronounced "a song for", not "a song for ex ex" or "a song for batsu batsu".) The MoS-Ja advocates the standardization of titles according to proper English formatting, but I'm not sure if this title falls under its guidelines. So: A Song for ×× or A Song for XX? Ink Runner (talk) 19:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Considering we have this article, I guess using "×" should be OK? Besides, that's not the "X" letter... Erigu (talk) 05:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Only if the appropriate redirects are created. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:50, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yet we have the article at XxxHolic for a manga titled ×××HOLiC. Akata (talk) 09:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved the page back too a A Song for XX. Per, MOS:TM: Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced. I guess in the article it can be mentioned that the album title is pronounced as A Song for. MS (Talk|Contributions) 12:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Are album titles considered trademarks, though? (This may be a stupid question, but law has never been my forte.) Ink Runner (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Not usually as multiple artists/groups can have an album with the same title. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Naming conventions

Shrines in Japan come in a Myriad of formalities that distinguish one from another. The current policy states to use "shrine" in place of -jinja -jingu and -myojin. However the suffix title does differentiate between several types of shrines and their status accordingly. Many of the imperial shrines are -jingu shrines as an example. The suffix is needed to make the subtle distinction and is part of a formal name. I have used this example before but it it like calling "The Vatican" the vatican church, or St Anthonys Cathedral the Anthony church. We need to change the policy and use formal names that a shrine wishes to be called and not shorten it. Takashi Ueki (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As all of the suffixes are generally translated as "Shrine" (or "Grand Shrine" in the case of -taisha), I don't think I agree; Misplaced Pages is not written for a specialist audience, and "Shrine" is a much clearer way (in common English usage) to state the title of many of these than "Jingu", etc. As for the argument that these are official names, the English Misplaced Pages relies on the common names for article titles. "Heian Shrine" appears to be more common than "Heian Jingu" according to Google (I personally use the second); "Ise Shrine" outnumbers "Ise Jingu"; "Sumiyoshi Shrine" outnumbers "Sumiyoshi Taisha"; "Hachiman Shrine" outnumbers "Hachiman Gu". All of these show equal numbers whether the suffix is capitalized or attached to the name. On the other hand, "Izumo Taisha" appears to outnumber "Izumo Shrine". Cf. ja:Category:大聖堂 and ja:大聖堂; none appear to be called "cathedrals" on the Japanese Wiki, nor does ja:ウェストミンスター大聖堂 call it anything other than a "church" or the Japanese word for cathedral in the text as far as I can see. Dekimasuよ! 19:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I generally agree with everything Dekimasu states. Also, the specific Japanese names are found in the lead in the nihongo template for any readers that want to know. --Torsodog 19:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

However, the convention would not hold up to a specific Shrine like Ise Jingu as it is called just Jingu. That is a formal name and not a suffix. The name is correct as a formal title. Also there is a distinct difference as the formal name is a trademark by most Shrines for one, and the preferred name by the Shrine. Separating Tiasha only proves the point. There is no specialist reader needed to understand the need to allow for self naming conventions among formal titles. They are not all just shrines, they belong to different subsets of shrines and that is relevant to religious self determination inside Shinto belief. It is similar to saying that the naming conventions between Catholic and Protestant clergy is irrelevant because they are all Christian (lets just call them all priest). Also I fail to see the relevance of using Google as a determinant method for naming conventions. Eg: Tao vs Dao. All of the conventions to date show that Tao is more commomly used due to age of mistranslation, however Dao is the Library of Congress method of modern convention. Pin Yin is more accurate. I go with the modern convention. It is the same in this case. Google can be manipulated and popularity does not make correct convention. Plus the internet is notoriously bad at getting information academically correct and book sources would be needed to support that supposition for these naming conventions. I am going to make contact with one of the experts that I resource about Japanese language conventions, especially for this purpose.

It deserves the formal title and I completely disagree that naming conventions can simply be thrown out because it is more convenient for the western reader. Takashi Ueki (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I also agree with Dekimasu. As Torsodog states the specific translation appears directly after the name in the nihongo template. Not only that but you are free to create Ise Jingu as a redirect to the article. The point is that the English reader can find the article about the topic. That is our target audience, the English reader. For the non-English reader there are other Wikis. imars (talk) 08:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I also agree with Dekimasu. I jumped on my local university website and looked up one of the academic databases used for research and did a search for both Ise Shrine and Ise Jingu. Ise Shrine came up with 4 times as many hits. Also, having lived in Ise for 4 years, the most common translation into English I saw there for the shrine was "Ise Grand Shrine" (on road signs and such). To me, this argument is about what is 'more correct' based on the official Japanese name (Jingu) as opposed to the more accepted name in standard English use (Shrine). It would be nice to use the proper Japanese name 'Jingu', but this is English wikipedia and we should use the English name here. Ka-ru (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I did the same thing as Ka-ru and also checked within the article to see if Jingu was being used as the common name. Ise Shrine is the academic standard, so as a publication based on consensus of sources Misplaced Pages must employ this naming convention. Shii (tock) 14:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Do remember that there is an exception in the WP convention on temple and shrine naming that allows for a formal name when distinguishing between shrines. This change is based on that convention. Ise Jingu is different than every other Ise branch shrine and ther are about 2000 of them. The head shrine is meant to be named formally where every other branch shrine can be called Ise Shrine. The convention then states to make a disambiguation page to clear up the matter. Ths looks appropriate to me. If everyone would be happier calling it Ise Grand Shrine that is fine as well, but it as all other head shrines need to be diffferentiated. Takashi Ueki (talk) 17:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Takashi Ueki. Abandoning the distinction between the various types of shrine to put them all in one category doesn't make sense to me. Why junk useful information? If those names are used and are seen as having a meaning in Japanese, should we not use them in English too? A cathedral and a chapel are both churches, but that doesn't mean the distinction between the two can/should be lost. Saying that Misplaced Pages is not for specialists, so we shouldn't use words that are too technical is paternalistic: it assumes people are not capable of and uninterested in learning. In any case if Misplaced Pages is not for specialists, it's supposed to be at least correct and teach something. Rather than using redirects from jingu, -gu, -sha and so forth to shrine, how about doing the opposite? About common names: it surely makes sense to use "Marilyn Monroe" rather than "Norma Jean Baker". That's the name she was known under. But surely this rule wasn't meant to actually validate and perpetuate errors. Urashima Tarō (talk) 23:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Because "Jinja", "Jingu", "Myojin" etc have no meaning in English, and because the best possible English translation for each is "Shrine". No information is being lost, those Misplaced Pages readers who understand Japanese can see the Japanese name right at the beginning of the article.

However, this discussion belongs on Talk:Ise Jingu, not here. Jpatokal (talk) 09:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps it would be good to use the official name the shrine calls itself. http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/ Shii (tock) 14:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Once upon a time, The Love Boat visited Tokyo. One of the attractions they mentioned was the Meiji Jing Shrine. This illustrates the difficulty of relying on what's known in English, since that show was viewed by an audience of millions (and has, no doubt, been rerun ad nauseum). It sounds absurd, but after all, since gū means "shrine," it's a valid translation. ("Jing" is my transcription from memory. The script might have had "Jin.") A difficulty in using the names shrines (or other establishments or people) call themselves is that they follow a variety of romanization conventions. The purpose of a style manual is to provide a standard for this publication. So unless something is extremely widely known in English, I'd advocate using Misplaced Pages style. I remain open-minded about the possibility of distinguishing the different kinds of shrines if the community feels it's best. Although I'm happy with the status quo. Fg2 (talk) 09:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Please comment on this issue

Talk:RKKY_interaction -- Shocklord (talk) 08:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC) Should 芳田奎 be romanized as Yoshida Kei or Yosida Kei ?

Place names

There is a section Place names in this article, however there is no description about what kind of romanized name should be used. I am discussing this issue at Talk:Daikanyama#Requested move, but I came to a decision to bring it to this page. I would like to discuss a general criteria not only a solution of this specific name.

In above mentioned article, the name of the place in Tokyo is disputed, 代官山 "Daikanyama" or "Daikan'yama". Please read above link for detailed discussion.

Basically my proposal is as follows;

1. The romanized name used by published map in Japan should be used for Wilipedia. (for example Google Map) In this case, apostrophe is probably never used.
2. If the government(either state, prefectural or municipal) indicates the romanaized name in their official document or web site, it should be used for Misplaced Pages.
3. If the romanized name of a place is widely used within Japan, it should be used for Misplaced Pages, even if it is not widely known around world.

If there is any conflict between above, another reasonable criteria should be employed.

Please let me know your opinion. ― Phoenix7777 (talk) 07:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

• I vote for either Daikanyama or Daikan-yama. While I am normally a proponent of a standard system of romanization, I don't think apostrophes are as big of a deal as macrons or the "correct" romanization of shi and chi as not being si and ti. I don't have any specific sources on me, but I don't believe I have ever seen "Daikan'yama" before, with the apostrophe. When it comes to commonly known placenames - and Daikanyama is certainly commonly known to anyone who's ridden the trains around Tokyo enough - I think it's just fine to go with a common version. LordAmeth (talk) 12:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Please note that there is an ongoing discussion occurring at Talk:Daikanyama#Requested move, so discussion relating specifically to and about the name "Daikanyama" should occur there. Note that I've moved one comment specifically about "Daikanyama" to the Talk:Daikanyama#Requested move page. Phoenix7777 is (or, at least, should be) discussing the overall romanization guidance which is currently offered in this guideline. He feels that it shoudl be changed to a system which he is apparrently more comfortable with.
— Ω (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I restored a post by User:LordAmeth. Please continue a discussion of a specific name of Daikanyama as well as general rule. It is not permitted to move/delete other person's descriptions on talk page without permission of author.

Yes, certainly this discussion began at page Daikanyama. However its audience is very small, so I brought the discussion here where there are many persons with knowledge of this topic. ― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

To make this discussion a bit more general, I'd suggest that the syllable にゃ nya is so rare in Japanese -- as far as I can see from WWWJDIC, the only kanji with that reading is 若, which in turn is only used in the compound 般若 hannya -- that apostrophes for it are unnecessary, at least in article titles. But for avoidance of doubt, the apostrophe can still be indicated as as separate romanization, like this: "Daikanyama (代官山, Daikan'yama) is..." Jpatokal (talk) 07:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Train and Subway stations

There is a section Train and Subway stations in this article, however there is no description about what kind of romanized name should be used.

My proposal is "Station name should be the romanized name Railway companies publish".

Please let me know your opinion. ― Phoenix7777 (talk) 07:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, I think it a very dangerous precedent to set to go by what railway companies publish. I don't know of any specific examples right now immediately offhand, but I would not put it past railroad companies in Japan to make basically every "mistake" in the book, from ignoring macrons to writing shi and chi as si and ti, to mis-romanizing words that are English anyway.

There are a great many rail companies in Japan; they don't all agree on a single standard system, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are even inconsistencies within any given rail company as to romanization. In short, I don't think they can be trusted to get it right.

I would absolutely support the idea of using the name officially used by rail companies when it comes to naming and translation issues - e.g. Naha-kūkō Station, as is clearly printed on the giant sign at the station itself, rather than "Naha Airport Station", or Ōsakajōkōen Station and not "Osaka Castle Park Station" even though we have an article at Osaka Castle Park - but I cannot support that notion as it applies to correct romanization. The name given a station is a very purposeful and intentional thing, and so the official name of a station should be honored. However, I firmly believe that the romanization of that name is not nearly as purposeful and intentional, and represents a haphazard application of poorly understood standards and logic. Where a rail company leaves off a macron, this is not with purposeful intent to misrepresent the Japanese name, it is merely a slip-up, where someone doesn't know better or doesn't care, and we should not honor that as if it were an official, purposeful, creative choice. LordAmeth (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with LordAmeth. Another thing I noticed: what is the policy in hyphenation ? I notice there is Kita-Senri Station, Kita Kurihama Station and Kitahiroshima Station. The pages without hyphen are redirected to pages with hyphen. Just some examples. Shocklord (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I also agree with LordAmeth. The guideline for hyphens is that they should be avoided. However, in the case of train station names, they are often used as we use the official name of the station used by the company which operates it. I agree that the romanization following the kanji should be standardized, and there should also be redirects for other likely romanizations or spellings. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

• First I would like to point out that si and ti are based on the Japanese standard. See Romanization of Japanese#Chart of romanizations. Although this Romanization is not accepted today even in Japan. Yes, it is certainly beautiful if those names were KitaSenri Station, KitaKurihama Station and KitaHiroshima Station. However, it is not productive to complain about current condition. We should not be arrogant to change the existent name, only because it does not conform to the Wiki standard or it is not beautiful. The only choice we can take is to use the current romanization used officially by railway company without adding and reducing any apostrophe or macron. And use of such a name is in reality de facto standard in en:Wiki now. So I propose again the following description be added to WP:MOS-JP#Train and Subway stations, similar wording as in "Names of companies, products, and organizations".

"Honor the current romanization used officially by Railway companies." ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is my counterproposal:

"Use transliteration of official Japanese name in revised Hepburn, unless it is apparent that the railway company prefers different name or spelling."

Reasons: Firstly, Japanese railway stations hardly have "official" romanized name that have to be followed under the MOS. Romanized names are mere transliteration of the official names that are made by railway companies as a guide for foreigners or just for decoration of webpages, with no intention to establish official names.

Secondly, even if the spellings by railway companies should be considered as "official," we would face difficulties to determine which spelling is the official because of companies' indecisive attitude to the "official" names. For example JR West uses macronned form on the station signages (example: Ōtsu Station) but does not on the official website (example: Otsu Station). Such a situation would easily cause a serious confusion in naming if we declare that the "official" romanization is absolute. --Sushiya (talk) 13:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

My position is even in your first case, a name written in station sign should be used for a name for en:Wiki. Could you show me some examples of this case? I may be convinced to agree your opinion.

As for the second case, it shows that it is not so easy to find the fact. Please see this page by JR West or Google Map. This is because macron is often omitted in website. This can be solved by adding a caution like "the station name in website may sometimes be written without macron(s)".

My concern for your counter proposal is that it often becomes a dispute as to whether "it is apparent that the railway company prefers different name or spelling" ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

My first point is that railway companies do not consider the romanized names so important as the official names of the stations. One evidence of this is that even station signages at one station have different names in romaji. For example Hanamaki Airport, Hanamaki-Kūkō and Hanamaki-Kuko. See also the inconsistency in macron usage already mentioned above. --Sushiya (talk) 02:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I think in cases like that we should go with the standard name which would be correct under the general WP:MOS-JA guidelines. As Phoenix7777 indicates, you are listing an extreme case which is unlikely to occur all that often (I never once saw signage that diverse in romanization in one station in my many years living in Japan). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It often occurs when a company changes its romanization method but leaves old signages unchanged. I've seen some in stations of Tokyo Metro, which recently cease to use macrons. cf. ja:神保町駅#歴史. --Sushiya (talk) 07:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand your concern, however you are talking about an extreme case. So I support User:Nihonjo's clarification as a confirmation of current de facto naming method. And in your extreme case, editor should follow the description written in lede of WP:MOS-JP#Names "If you are unsure of how to write a name after reading the information below, please post your question on the Talk page." ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about the nature of the romanized names inferred from the cases, not the naming procedures under your proposed rule. --Sushiya (talk) 03:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, now you're just making things confusing. This isn't someplace to academically discuss romanization inconsistencies just for the heck of it. All we care about is what we are going to do here, on enwiki. We aren't here to infer anything. Your questions have been answered already (unless you've come up with new ones). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Frankly speaking I don't believe the naming based on station signages would cause so many problems. However, as a part of Misplaced Pages, I am unconfortable to declare that the station signage must be the basis for the article naming because signages are not a kind of reliable sourses and to check it for naming is a kind of original research. --Sushiya (talk) 03:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's no more original research than looking on the official sites of the train companies. The signs are officially approved and produced, and they are there where everyone can see them. If I had to choose one over the others, I would probably pick the sign above the entrance to the station. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Sushiya. Signage cannot be taken as a reliable source, because the train companies themselves do not follow any consistent style or logic in their romanizations, and because, as Sushiya writes, Japanese railway stations hardly have "official" romanized name ... Romanized names are mere transliteration of the official names that are made by railway companies ... with no intention to establish official names. I'm sorry to repeat what's already written here, but I think this is completely the core of the point. Our station naming on en:wiki should reflect a certain degree of consistency and logic in the use of macrons and in spelling, even when that trumps "official" names (e.g. Ōtsu Station instead of Otsu Station; shi & chi instead of si and ti). LordAmeth (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

If the Revised Hepburn Romanization take precedence over station sign, then Daikan'yama, Shin'ōsaka and Nishishinjuku must be used instead of Daikan-yama, Shin-Ōsaka and Nishi-shinjuku which are on the station sign. Because usage of hyphen instead of apostrophe is not defined in Revised Hepburn. Furthermore there is no description "after a word shin or nishi, hyphen should be used" in WP:MOS-JP. Someone would never compromise on apostrophe usage, strictly following Revised Hepburn Romanization. See Talk:Junichiro Koizumi#Article title. As for the usage of the name on station sign, correction of apparent misuse of romanization will not be precluded, unless it is not a change from hyphen to apostrophe.

Anyway I came to realized that there is no merit to clarify the guideline, because the naming of the station is properly made by following the first line of WP:MOS-JP "Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions." I withdraw my proposal. Thank you all for participating this discussion. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Instead, please participate in Talk:Daikanyama. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Names of fictional characters: Hepburn or "intended" romanization?

The discussion that lead to this one can be found here: Talk:List of One Piece episodes (season 10)#Margaret//Marguerite//Māgaretto

There has been a bit of edit warring at List of One Piece episodes (season 10) about a character that first appears in that season. Her name is written in kana as マーガレット. One side wishes to romanize her name as "Margaret", like the common first name. The other side wants to use "Marguerite", as she and several related characters are apparently named after flowers. My question is: Is going with the "intended" romanization without an official source to back it up acceptable at all? Goodraise 21:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I now support Marguerite rather than Margaret, as according to the Japanese wikipedia, the spelling for the Marguerite flower is indeed マーガレット. The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

If it's clearly established that ALL of the names are flowers (perhaps in an interview with the author or something similar), then that would make sense. I don't see a need to modify the MOS-JA, though. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

So, if it's not "clearly established that ALL of the names are flowers" (as is the case here), you'd use Hepburn? (I assume that with "something similar" you mean a non-primary source.) Goodraise 01:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the popularity of the series, it's likely that someone, somewhere, in some article about the series, commented on all those names being flower names. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:53, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't share your optimism, but that is beside the point. What do we do until such a source has been found? -- I'm not asking this because of a single character. I've been wondering about this question for quite a while. This incident only provided the incentive I needed to ask. Goodraise 23:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

You may want to take a look at the old talk page of Talk:Burdock (Dragon Ball). Dekimasuよ! 08:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, but the case is a lot different here. Burdock has several official English spellings, as opposed to none. There is no writing system trickery involved here: As Geg pointed out above, the kana is the same for the flower and the character. Also, a decision does not seem to have been made there, so even if the cases were compatible, I'd be left as clueless as I am now. Goodraise 15:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It maybe original research, or it may simply fall into common sense. I have no idea in what character is that, but if someone can suggest a set of characters are all named after flowers( and no other exception could be found in such set), and all of them sound uncommon, I would say that using the flower name is much better than using the normal common English name. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 07:59, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Use Marguerite with a notation about the original spelling. Alternative, you could ask Funimation what they intend to use as her name citing the problem.陣内_Jinnai 20:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

ウォー

ウォー, is it Wō or Uō? --Apoc2400 (talk) 14:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Wō. Uō needs a large ォ, as in　ウオー. Jpatokal (talk) 16:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. As I thought, but I wasn't sure. --Apoc2400 (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Romanization of foreign words rendered in Japanese katakana

As per this discussion I am being point here. I find it very redundant and unnecessary, since the Japanese katakana is actually only telling what the word in front would be pronounced by the Japanese. Of course it may be useful some of the times, like when the pronunciation is very different from the origin or the displayed words. However, there are times when it is only stating the obvious joke in the eyes of westerners about how poorly Japanese render those words and sometimes even more misleading since katakana pronunciation separate each word as oppose to English where people try to link each of them. For example, Aerith in English would be something like Arith (2 distinct vowels), but the katakana is E A Li Su (4 distinct vowels) and the romanzation would be Earisu, where it would be 4 vowels but people will tend to pronounce the first part more like Ear, an i sound instead of the eh sound. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 14:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

First of all, there is no "Li" sound in Japanese, so your example is incorrect. That said, the Japanese only needs to be presented once, so I'm not seeing what the big deal is here. If it's a Japanese game where the characters were originally named in katakana, having that where people can easily see how the Japanese pronounced it is important information. It's made even easier by using the {{nihongo}} template. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

From what I heard, the Japanese romanization have no li, but most Japanese do not pronounce ri as in English as well. Also, what does it add to the article for people who do not read Japanese, cannot read Japanese, and do not bother to learn Japanese? Wouldn't including the IPA of the term much more efficient than romanizing the katakana? —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 19:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It adds nothing for those people, but the same can be said for any Japanese anywhere on enwiki. The point of having it is to be complete and provide the information for those who do read Japanese and for those interested in it whether or not they can read it. Since it's a Japanese topic, using the Japanese is entirely appropriate. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I did not mention anything about removing the katakana, if people see the katakana, and is interested in the Japanese pronunciation, they will check it for themselves, if they do not, the romanization do not add anything to it. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 14:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that providing Romanization for Japanese script is redundant only when the romanization is essentially a copy of the English phrase. The example in the VGProj discussion had to do with Kingdom Hearts, which at one point was introduced as: Kingdom Hearts (キングダムハーツ, Kingudamu Hātsu) . The point of contention was that the romanization was redundant, and to most readers just looks like a guide on how to say an English title with a Japanese accent. However, where the romanization IS interesting and important would be in cases where the Japanese title is significantly different from the English - for example, Tetris Attack, released in Japan as Yoshi no Panepon (ヨッシーのパネポン) .

I think the issue is that this MOS seems to say that we have to provide romanization for every instance of Japanese script so that people can see how to pronounce it. I agree with others from the VGProj, though, that it makes article leads unnecessarily long and doesn't add anything of significant value when it basically looks like an English title, Japanese script, and then the English title again. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

It does add value, even if it's not significant, which no one ever claimed it was. Every last word doesn't have to add significant value, however, and including the rōmaji for the Japanese will not significantly increase the article lead size unless the article lead is significantly smaller than it should be. Rōmaji is not English, even if it looks similar due to using Roman letters. Due to being written in a completely different character set, having the rōmaji allows those who don't read Japanese to have some idea of how it's actually said in the original language in which it was released (which could be considered significant). It also helps to keep the site from being Euro-centric. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

That is exactly what I am saying. I am elaborating the discussion concerning the titles to other parts, like characters that appear in video games. like Vincent romanization as Vinsento is quite redundent in the English wiki(but it is not redundant in the French wiki as the pronunciation of Vincent is different in French). —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 06:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem with this is the consensus was removing romanization of Japanese game titles; but it was too general in a sense: there was talk of using footnotes if the article lead was unnecessarily long which was not elaborated further, and somehow the removal included character names and plot terms - which wasn't in the reached consensus. Also, I think most who were for removing the romanization didn't see it from the point of view of or didn't take into account those who'd be interested to know how the kana was pronounced (such as moi). I agree with Nihonjoe's view that romaji isn't English - it's the pronunciation of the kana using latin letters - and is thus not redundant. — Blue。 08:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

If they are interested, it would be very simple to look up the kana and see how they are pronounced. If they do not bother to do that, I do not see why we need to compensate for their laziness and force feed it to them. Japanese is not a totally out of hand language like the tokien elvish, it is rather simple to find web sites to at least have the kana's pronunciation displayed. Saying it is not redundant because someone might be interested sounds like saying someone in the street might be hungry, so you place lunch boxes in every corner thinking hungry people might not want to walk the length of the street to go to a dinning place. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 12:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Eh, you completely missed the point; it's not redundant because romaji isn't English. Plus, your comparisons could also be placed on Misplaced Pages as a whole; "readers can look up the nearest library and find out about Homunculi, we don't need to "force feed" them by writing an encyclopedic article about it." So, yeah.

I'm for a) restoring the romaji back into articles that have been using kana, and b) should the article intro be rendered needlessly long because of the Japanese titles, then placing them in footnotes should be adequate, but not wholesale removal. — Blue。 14:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

What have they come to wikipedia for? If they are reading a Japanese related page, they are here for the information for the article specific, and those articles are not here to teach Japanese.(And they are doing a pretty bad job if they are.) Does anyone really look at an article about something and decided they have to know how it is pronounced in Japanese, when the name could be very simply pronounced in English? It seems more like making fun of Japanese pronunciation than actually helping the article. Vincent Valentine is very obvious to English speakers, and informative enough for any regular readers. The rationale used for supporting the romanization could be well be used on adding the IPA of the Japanese characters so readers can know exactly how the words are pronounced. The list can keep on going if more information is always good arguement is used. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 03:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the romaji transliterations need to be added back. Romaji pronunciation is not English pronunciation as the Japanese do not have the schwa and many other sounds seen in English and other European languages. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we need pronuciation for obviously English words. We don't do that for greek figures like Pericles even though its pronounced in Greek as Periklis. It's because we have a well-known English name we don't need the pronunciation. The same is true for something like Vincent. For words which are radically different when translated, that might be differnet.陣内_Jinnai 20:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Vincent is a fictional character from a video game. I'm not sure that's comparable to Pericles, really...

(that being said, I don't think including a note about the original pronunciation of Pericles's name would hurt that article) Erigu (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Those "obviously English" words are not pronounced that way in Japanese. I.E. Vincent versus Binsento. The reason why we give the romaji is to show how it is pronounced in Japanese. Likewise a note about the original pronunciation about Pericles's name is perfectly reasonable. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, the intended pronunciation of the name "Vincent" is not obvious based on the alphabet spelling alone: it could also be the French name "Vincent". The fact the name is pronounced as "binsento" in Japanese does seem (<- that's me being ridiculously cautious, here) to indicate it's supposed to be pronounced according to English phonetics. I think that's valuable information. There's a bunch of cases where the original pronunciation of a video game character's name has little to do with English phonetics (in that same Final Fantasy series, even).

And while I guess you could argue that somebody who would know enough about Japanese phonetics to understand that based on the romanized spelling would probably also be able to read the kana spelling, the "probably" bothers me... Erigu (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

You missed what I said, the name Vincent is obvious in the English wiki to be pronounced like Vincent in the common English speaking world, and thus in this case, this specific character would need the romanji in the French wiki, since it is not the common pronunciation for them. Include them if not common, skip when they are. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 03:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You might then have a better argument imo for the likes of Vincent if we also included the French pronunciation since the idea is it would be unclear what the proper source for Vincent's name is as it obviously isn't Japanese. Same could be said for Edward Elric who has even more evidence of his intended nationality. And yes, other articles that deal with real or fictional individuals who have different nationalities than than English or where they are primarily known from (for real people) or the original work (for fiction) do list such pronunciations if they decide to list them at all. Most do not though if the English equivalent is obvious.陣内_Jinnai 22:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Where's the "evidence" of Edward Elric 's "intended nationality"? The character has a name that looks English, that's all.

I'm just saying it would be better not to make assumptions (as "educated" as they may be). Let's just provide the reader with relevant and objective information about the name. I think the romanized spelling of names from Japanese works is both relevant and objective. Anything beyond that, like the assumption that the pronunciation should be obvious for English readers, is subjective territory, in my opinion. Erigu (talk) 23:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

In the narrative. It is a fictionalized version of Germany before WWII, although I meant was his intended citizenship (since he could be something other than German).陣内_Jinnai 01:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Er... As far as I know, it's a fictional world that's merely inspired from 19th century Europe... Erigu (talk) 01:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

A simple question, will you pronounce Vincent Valentine as Vinsento Varentain? Everytime you use the term? Or are you going to prnounce the term simply as its English form Vincent Valentine(VIN-sənt VAL-ən-tien key)? —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 03:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The question seems too self-centered for one to answer. One needs to understand that the Japanese pronounce things differently than we do, and we need to express that. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:58, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Why would I pronounce that name exactly according to the kana? I'm not Japanese. It looks like you're missing the point, really... Erigu (talk) 04:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Your are missing my point. If someone like you who insist of having the romanization have no use for them, why do you think anyone else would want it other than making fun of Japanese pronunciation? I understand there are times when it is a must to have, like Tidus is pronounced as Tida in the Japanese version. However, I do not see the article(s) of the long list of Louis(es) like this one have the pronunciation loo-EE attached to it stating the name should be Loui instead of Louis. The WP:MOS-FR did not have such ideas but they are more likely to cause confusion for readers. WP:MOS-KO also did not require the pronunciation of the Korean words eventhough it is similar to Japanese in this sense. Some Chinese article having that simply because there are so many dialects in China(some argue those are separate languages as well, whatever) and the same words can have different pronunciation. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 04:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

When a pronunciation is unusual we often use IPA. As for China, we always include Mandarin and also include any applicable local dialects, depending on the involved regions. For MOS-KO, I believe if it is a "foreign character in a Korean work" we also have the romanization in Revised Romanization and McCune Reischauer. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:58, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

If someone like you who insist of having the romanization have no use for them, why do you think anyone else would want it other than making fun of Japanese pronunciation?

I personally have no use for the romanization because I can read kana. Last I heard, quite a few people can't read kana. And if you're suggesting they should just learn... Well, Bluerfn already covered that one.

Now, do I have a use for the kana spelling? Yes, I do, as I'm interested in the original pronunciation of those names. If I couldn't read kana, I'd still have the romanization, lucky me.

And I can think of reasons to be interested in this other than "making fun of Japanese pronunciation" (now, that part was quite depressing, really). The kana spelling (or the romanization, if you can't read kana) gives us the Japanese pronunciation of the name. In the case of a non-Japanese name, it will naturally be an approximation, but that's still information.

I know you're saying we could just make an exception when the name is "obviously supposed to be pronounced according to English phonetics", but I wish you'd realize the limitations of that approach. What appears "obvious" to you may not be obvious to someone else. Start making exceptions like that, and you'll end up creating a bunch of arguments just for the sake of removing a few characters. I just don't think it's worth complexifying the guidelines. Erigu (talk) 06:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Try to convince MOS-FR to include Loui in Louis related article then, it seems much more appropriate to include than the romanji here. Since most people do not see it this way, I am not going to comment on it anymore, I have no idea how to use the romanji anyway.(I can read the Japanese, but have no knowledge in the áàâäãǎāă type of stuff.) —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 06:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that exceptions for obvious English words isn't that big of an exception. Can it be helpful? Yes, but in such cases it shouldn't be required, only suggested.陣内_Jinnai 21:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

As in the original discussion I still think romanization of non-Japanese words is superfluous for the en.wikipedia readers. And if pronunciation should be indicated at all it should be the English one in IPA (as heard in voiceovers or from the developers' mouth). Megata Sanshiro (talk) 21:54, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't make it absolute. There are first and foremost foreign words that aren't of English origin. There may also be justified reasons for using romaji if the name includes either kanji and/or hiragana. My only concern is the idea of it being absolute for words like English words like ドラゴンクエスト.陣内_Jinnai 22:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

If it includes kanji then it's a Japanese word. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 22:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Not quite true as there are a few exceptions. 珈琲 is coffee and coffee certainly isn't a native Japanese word.陣内_Jinnai 23:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The original discussion and the guideline it resulted in were about article intros, and Japanese titles made up of plain English words (and that goes against this manual of style). You're extending the whole thing to entire articles, non-Japanese words and names.

(and I didn't know "rokujūyon" was a common English word...) Erigu (talk) 00:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

There wasn't any consensus on the extension as far as I can read, only on article titles which was too absolute - "should not be included" - and too general, not elaborating on better treatment regarding the romanization. Erigu's statement is worth repeating - what's fairly obvious to some may not be obvious to others. I'm fairly sure that the developers for "Dragon Quest" didn't pronounce "ドラゴンクエスト" like an English speaker. I'll just repeat my suggestions on a) including romanization and b) using footnotes if the romanization rendered the article lead too long.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe MOS-JP trumps any decision regarding the inclusion/exclusion of kana romanizations. I'd like to point out Misplaced Pages Japan's practice of writing the kana pronunciation in their game article leads, even though we'd expect the Japanese to know their own language already; I know they have a good reason for this because of the numerous meanings to one kanji character, but that's still to be commended, unlike the view that "if they want to read the kana, they can go to a kana article". — Blue。 03:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

And as a result of this discussion we need to restore all kana readings for "foreign names" in the context discussed here. Other projects should yield to MOS-JA's current practices. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Bl- if the developers didn't pronounce ドラゴンクエスト as "Dragon Quest" then its more likely do to the difficulty in phonetics of another lanuggae purposeful.陣内_Jinnai 05:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Jinnai. Also MOS-JA and VG/GL are both guidelines, why would one have to "yield" to the other? WikiProjects are allowed to have their guidelines, which may or may not differ from other WikiProjects's guidelines (but not main Misplaced Pages policies). As it is, the VG guidelines are pretty clear:

"Japanese titles should only be provided for games of Japanese origin whose official English name differs significantly from its Japanese name."

"Dragon Quest" does not significantly differ from "Doragon Kuesuto", since it is quite exactly the same name except one of them is an approximation of the other. As for "rokujūyon", it's just "64". Megata Sanshiro (talk) 10:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

MOS-JA and VG/GL are both guidelines, why would one have to "yield" to the other?

It's only natural to include the original title of a work (movie, TV series, comic book or video game). And if that original title isn't written in our alphabet, it's only natural to include a romanization. Why would video games be an exception?

We have a system that works pretty well and is fairly objective, but you apparently want to complexify the guidelines (for video games specifically) in such a way that editors will have to decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not a title/name/whatever's pronunciation should be "obvious" for an English speaker (as long as they all agree all the time, that shouldn't be a problem, right? it's not like there's any subjectivity involved, here, after all...), and all that just just for the sake of removing a few characters.

That simply sounds like a terrible idea to me. Erigu (talk) 11:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"MOS-JA and VG/GL are both guidelines, why would one have to "yield" to the other? "

1. MOS-JA is an across the board Manual of Style guideline and it overrules local project guidelines like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines

2. The Japanese language is not within the expertise of VG/GL, so VG/GL will defer to MOS-JA for matters related to the Japanese language. VG/GL ought to accept MOS-JA's guidelines about romanization of "foreign" names. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to present a new argument in countering the point raised up there. Bluefn, I'm fairly sure that the developers for "Dragon Quest" didn't pronounce "ドラゴンクエスト" like an English speaker Japanese speakers having Japanese accent is not a valid argument of including the info. People keep thinking that the words are pronounced differently and thus it must be included, but they missed the fact that accent in different countries are what going on here. The Japanese have their own accent, since they use their own native language to ease the difficulty in learning a new language. Katakana was not designed for foreign words, it is a simplified method of helping kids and women to learn the pronunciation of words, since in ancient times, there are a lot more hiragana in Japan. (Source: Nippon jin no shiranai nihongo 日本人の知らない日本語 ISBN 978-4-8401-2673-1) It is used as a similar tool for Japanese to learn foreign languages and thus the accent of Japanese will be influenced by it. It does not mean that they made up whole new words or whole new pronunciations for words. Saying they pronounce the words differently and we must include it is only WP:POV and should not be used in wikipedia. If the words are made up, so be it, include the romanji since no one kows what on Earth are they. If it is a simple English word, do not make fun of the accent they carry in Japan, it is only a bad joke. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 11:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It does not mean that they made up whole new words or whole new pronunciations for words. Saying they pronounce the words differently and we must include it is only WP:POV

Editors deciding on a case-by-case basis whether or not the romanization should be included sure sounds a lot like WP:POV to me. Systematically including the romanization, on the other hand...

If it is a simple English word, do not make fun of the accent they carry in Japan

That again? Nobody said anything about making fun of Japanese people, really. Well, apart from you, anyway... Erigu (talk) 11:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Insisting on having the Japanese pronunciation of English words with no reason other than stating they pronounce the word differently is making fun of other countries' accent, whether you intended to do so or not. You are trying to emphasize the difference of accents stating in this reply that "Systematically include everything" is faulty since you keep using the argument of they pronounce it differently above. Editors are making case-by-case judgement all the time, it is called common sense. Calling Dragon Quest Dragon Quest and not Doragon Kuesuto is common sense. I will give you that Aerith Gainsborough might not be common sense, but Vincent Valentine is. And obviously, the consensus claimed here is not quite as it claimed. You have 4 people in this particular discussion supporting your arguments, on the other hand, there are 4 disagreeing your view on it should be required(At least for English words rendered in Japanese). It is so disputed that I can hardly agree on the consensus anymore. It should be removed from the guideline, and if disputed, do not say that it is consensus of the MOS-JP. It is not consensus anymore. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 13:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I will give you that Aerith Gainsborough might not be common sense, but Vincent Valentine is.

"Vincent" is also a French name, and "Valentine" is also both a French name and a French word. And even if those weren't used by other cultures, we're talking about a game set in an imaginary universe, and Square is well known for its strange alphabet spelling/pronunciation combos. The pronunciation of that name isn't obvious.

"But if we omit the romanization, people will just assume the English pronunciation is the correct, and based on the kana, it would seem it is indeed, so where's the problem?"

Problem 1): You're assuming English phonetics should be used based on the kana spelling. While I'd agree with you here, that's still an assumption, as educated as it may be.

Problem 2): People might also just wonder why the romanization is missing.

(and I find the fact you keep saying that "mentioning the romanization of a non-Japanese word is like making fun of the Japanese" a tad sad, really...) Erigu (talk) 22:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Consensus isn't determined by the majority, Myth - that's voting.

Yeah, katakana was made to simplify learning words - BUT, modern Japanese now render katakana's use for foreign words mostly, others include for emphasis, onomatopoeia, among other use. Problem is, I'm sure most of us knew kana enough so that when we see the kana script, we know how it sounds and that supposedly makes it redundant - since we already know. What about others? We're not going to tell them that モーグリ is "Moogle" and be done with it, are we?

And really, who is "making fun of the Japanese accent"? I have to ask that because that's been Myth's argument for some time, and yet I don't see any evidence of people making fun of the Japanese accent - aside from Myth calling inclusion of the romaji "stupid". People making fun of the accents - that can't be helped - whole spectrum of people are out there, ignorant ones included. That shouldn't be a reason to deter us from including the romaji.

"Hey guys, バクナムス is pronounced 'Baknamy'. Why? Because it's obvious. Not sure? Go to the kana article, since it's redundant to provide you with the romaji." I wince at the thought.

The discussion's been long enough as it is, and removing the romaji is just going to open a can of worms, complicating guidelines; and I can be sure when an editor sees the romaji missing, they'll be adding it unawares of a guideline asking to remove romaji - because it's just natural for us to guide whenever possible. Anyone got a plan for a compromise? — Blue。 15:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Consensus is about how a group of people reached a common ground and agreed on it. If a majority of people in the group agreed on the same thing, you can say that the group has consensus on it. I am not saying we should vote, but it is very obvious that when then are 8 people participating a discussion, which is the group of people concerning this particular problem/dispute, and they are split into two groups of similar number, we can say that we do not have consensus. This is not voting, but an obvious deduction of why we do not have consensus here. And Moogle is not an English phase, thus is not falling into the area of omitting the romanji proposal here. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 17:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Consensus isn't determined by voting, but it can give a picture. In addition several reasons were brought up and there has been no good reason why for English words the pronunciation should be used. Indeed other language articles don't use it for words common in English. Therefore I'd say on the larger picture consensus is against the current version of MOS-JP. And the argument that it's a dialect very much holds water as Indian English is considered a set of dialects and similar to Japan, English is a second language in India.陣内_Jinnai 16:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Except that in a few edits made by Megata, such as in List of Castlevania media, removal of "Akumajō" and "Densetsu" is clearly beyond what the consensus had reached, and last I read, the consensus was regarding "English words in article intros". A much clearer guideline should be derived from this consensus. Plus, I don't like it when two brilliant editors get worked up into edit warring.

Try "Include Hepburn romanization for articles about games developed in Japan, except for those with entirely English titles that are not rendered differently than the Japanese title eg. Dragon Quest. This would mean Drakengard is an exception since the Japanese title is Drag-on Dragoon." How is that? — Blue。 16:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I still don't see how including romanization makes the lead too long, so I don't see why including the romanization is such a big deal. Making an exception just for video game titles seems a little pointless and rules creepy to me. Romanization should be the same across the board so we don't confuse people. If we made this rule, people would be constantly adding the romanization because they thought it was just forgotten, so making an exception like this will only create a pile of unnecessary work in the future, whereas simply including the romanization makes it conform with WP:MOS-JA and prevents unnecessary headaches in the future. Including the romanization does not significantly increase the lead of an article, either. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The dispute here is about the general guideline on all English words used in Japan that have or eventually will have their own articles. Drag-on Dragoon seems to be a bad example(As bad as Aerith Gainsborough I used up there, so I changed to Vincent Valentine as my major example here) If the objects are common English words/names, do not include the romanji since it is only a different accent of English. The rationale of it causing confusion/frustration/complexity to the guideline is not strong enough, this is only bureaucratic. I can agree on that if it is the consensus of the group, but it is obviously not right now. The other rationale used stating because people might want to know is simply irrelevant to the article and swaying away from the intended topic of the article(when it is only a different accent, not a new word needing people to know how to pronounce it). The reader came to search for Dragon Quest, not the Japanese katakana pronunciation method or the Japanese accent. If they look at the article and decided they want to know the pronunciation of ドラゴンクエスト, in which they became interested in when they are reading the article, they can look for it in other articles, like katakana. It is just like any other links in the article, say, role-playing game. The reader might be interested in what RPG is, thus we link them to the right page, not include a part of the RPG page in the Dragon Quest article telling people what it is. I am sure that including the link to katakana in a nihongo template should be very simple if needed. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 17:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Nihonjoe makes a great point about the rule creep. MOS-JA has jurisdiction over all Japan-related articles, so a local video game project cannot overrule what MOS-JA has. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not that it holds jurisdiction, or that it blankets everything else, but looking back, since the consensus talks about supposed problems with the Japanese romanization, I unearthed this from WP:UEIA. — Blue。 19:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a few misconceptions in the discussion:

1/ The VG guidelines apply to video game articles in their entirety, not just article intro. There was a discussion which had the words "article intro" in the name of the talkpage section, but the discussion clearly did not concern just intros. If something applies to an intro, there's no reason it shouldn't apply to similar cases in the rest of the article.

2/ I'm not really seeing Nihonjoe's point. MOS-JA says that if romaji is needed then Hepburn Revised Romanization is the system that should be used (as opposed to JSL romanization, etc.). It doesn't say "Insert the romanization of every kana you mention". It states quite clearly that:

"For transliterations from katakana, use the English spelling if available (i.e., Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo)."

We have to use Thunderbird instead of Sandābādo, so let us use Dragon Quest instead of Doragon Kuesuto. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The body of each article, preferably in its first paragraph, should list all common names by which its subject is widely known. I don't think the romanji is widely known in any English case. Beijing, Peking are both wildly known, but Doragon is definitely out of the question. All of the WP:UEIA is not supporting using the romanji at all, it is talking about using the common names and latin transliteration of non latin words, not latin romanization of non latin words. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 19:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and following the example you quote, it would be Dragon Quest (ドラゴンクエスト, Doragon Kuesuto). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Mmh, no, that's precisely what is being discussed here. It's not in any of the guidelines. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 20:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

So far, in most removal edits I've seen concerning this discussion - non-English names were also removed of their romanization. That wasn't in the discussion as far I can read in the archive.

And in WP:UEIA there's also the second line, "When the native name is written in a non-Latin alphabet this representation should be included along with Latin alphabet transliteration". Romanization encompasses several transliteration methods, thus UEIA supports romaji usage.

An average reader wouldn't be able to tell which is the English word and which isn't in 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王, without the use of romaji. — Blue。 20:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Mmh, no

Mmh, yes. It would be Dragon Quest (ドラゴンクエスト, Doragon Kuesuto), like Nihonjoe said. It's right there in the manual of style, in the part you quoted above even:

"For transliterations from katakana, use the English spelling if available (i.e., Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo)."

It doesn't say use "Thunderbird" instead of "Sandābādo". It says use "Thunderbird (サンダーバード, Sandābādo)" instead of "Sandābādo". It doesn't say anything about removing the romanization altogether. Erigu (talk) 22:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the guideline again. It does say use "Thunderbird" instead of "Sandābādo". The kana and romaji in parentheses (they're parentheses inside parentheses...) is just for the sake of explanation in this guideline; it's not necessarily what should be in articles. Click on "Edit" there and notice how that part is written with real parentheses rather than the {{nihongo}} template. The actual Thunderbird (train) article doesn't have the romaji either. Nowhere in the guideline is it written "Use romaji for English words written in kana", and this is precisely why we are currently discussing the issue here. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 01:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the guideline again. It does say use "Thunderbird" instead of "Sandābādo". The kana and romaji in parentheses (they're parentheses inside parentheses...) is just for the sake of explanation in this guideline

No, it's not. I'm not sure what else to tell you, really.

The actual Thunderbird (train) article doesn't have the romaji either.

It should. And now, it does.

(and that article wasn't using the nihongo template either (fixed)... obviously, these things happen) Erigu (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You are pushing your POV to the articles. The guideline is in dispute right now, it is a bad idea to change the sample articles. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 07:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Like Nihonjoe said... Erigu (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand, you are trying to push your own POV during a dispute. Yes, Nihonjo agreed that there is a dispute ongoing, and the article in question you edited is one of the dispute targets. So your reply is only further pushing your POV. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 09:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand. I'm simply following this manual of style. Erigu (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You are an involved party in the dispute, you should be well aware of the dispute. I am telling you your actions are highly similar to using the current guideline to WP:Game the system to push your own WP:POV in the edits. Nihonjoe's editing out the dispute tag is also very questionable, it may be good faith, but for someone involved in the argument should not remove the tag. The guideline states Include in all case and it is obviously disputed and being discussed here. Yet you claimed your edit is only following the guideline is obviously point 4 at WP:WL —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 10:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You are an involved party in the dispute, you should be well aware of the dispute.

I know what the dispute is about, too. Which is why I don't see the problem, here: why would the Raichō article be concerned by a new WikiProject Video games guideline? Erigu (talk) 10:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Because the current discussion includes ALL English terms used in Japanese which is rendered in katakana. Thunderbird is one of them. It seems like you are really not clear of what the dispute is, and by that, no wonder you made such an edit. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 12:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

MythSearcher, the guideline doesn't actually say "Include romaji in all cases", it says "Romanization: Revised Hepburn romanization should be used in all cases". IMO, this means "If romaji are needed, then use the Revised Hepburn romanization system in all cases" (as opposed to other systems of romanization). The guideline never actually states when romaji are needed, which indeed is why we are discussing the issue here on this talk page. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 12:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

If this is so, then Erigu's edit is even more controversal. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 12:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The guideline never actually states when romaji are needed

Always? Obviously (?), you can't include Japanese text in kanji and/or kana without romanizing it for the Japanese-illiterate readers. Erigu (talk) 12:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This is your POV, and what this discussion is all about, is trying to find out if the romanji is redundant or not. You edit and actions are pushing your own POV of it being not redundant, that is doing something that is not up to consensus using the name of following a guideline. The problem is that the guideline in question is the centre of dispute, so your actions are only worsening the situation since it is controversal. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 14:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This is your POV

It's just common sense, really. Erigu (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

And I still don't see the point of saying "Thunderbird (サンダーバード, Sandābādo)" other than to point out Japanese have weird dialects. If we do that we might as well start doing "tomato (tə-ˈmā-tō, tə-ˈmä-tō, tə -ˈma-tō)"陣内_Jinnai 23:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Japanese have dialects, but that has nothing to do with this discussion. Almost anyone who is speaking in a language other than their native language will pronounce things differently, and pronunciation of English by Japanese people is no different. It is not a different dialect, though. It's simply pronunciation. The point of having Thunderbird (サンダーバード, Sandābādo) instead of Thunderbird (サンダーバード) is to provide a pronunciation guide for the katakana because it is not pronounced the same as "Thunderbird". Including the rōmaji does not expand the size of the lead sections of articles significantly (unless, as I previously mentioned, the lead is too short and in need of significant expansion). The whole point of articles here is to provide useful, complete, and accurate information to the reader, and for games originally developed in Japan, the Japanese title and the transliteration of that title are an important part of that coverage in the article. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, it is merely an accent of the Japanese, not a whole new pronunciation. People not knowing how the kana are pronounced have nothing to do with the article. The article provides how it is written, and if you want to provide the information, link the kana's to the appropriate article like the katakana article, like all the other interwiki links in all the articles. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 07:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

it is merely an accent of the Japanese

It's not a matter of "accent" at all...

People not knowing how the kana are pronounced have nothing to do with the article.

Are you saying the English Misplaced Pages isn't for people who don't know their kana? Erigu (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

If the title is suppose to be the English word which was used in translation there is no need for phonetics; we don't do that for other languages with non-roman script. I mean there are always exceptions to this rule, but that can be done by simply making it optional and using common sense to decide when transliterations are necessary and when they aren't when the Japanese is used for an equivalent English word.陣内_Jinnai 03:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I am saying putting a link to the katakana article is much better than including all of the pronunciation for the English words. This is the English wikipedia, readers have no problem in pronouncing Thunderbird in English, and if they want to know what the katakana サンダーバード stands for, a link to katakana is more than sufficient and enough like all other interwiki links. Let's have the Thunderbird (train) as an example, I am interested in it, and is reading the article, and I have no idea what limited express is. So I click on the link, and it brings me to the page giving me that precise information. We don't try to explain limited express in the thunderbird article, we have interwiki links for that purpose. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 09:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

if they want to know what the katakana サンダーバード stands for, a link to katakana is more than sufficient

And including the romanization is even simpler. Erigu (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

And including the romanization is making the page overwhelmed with information that some readers are not looking for. Especially the subject being discussed here is about terms that are originally English terms. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 10:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

"Overwhelmed"? It's only a few extra characters... Erigu (talk) 10:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

A few? hmmm... I wonder what does a few means. Sandābādo is 9, okay, it is still less than 10, I'll give you that. Doragon Kuesuto, 15, Vinsento Varentain, 18, not so few. Also, this is talking about including everything is overwhelming, Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) as oppose to Thunderbird (サンダーバード) is 50% more words on screen in most cases. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 12:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Doragon Kuesuto, 15, Vinsento Varentain, 18, not so few.

That's "few", in my opinion.

Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) as oppose to Thunderbird (サンダーバード) is 50% more words on screen in most cases.

For select words, not the entirety of the article. Definitely not "50% more words on the screen"... Erigu (talk) 12:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, screen is not the correct word, but a word is split into 3 equivalent meaning strains, this is the problem here. You need 18 extra characters for a word with only 5 syllable, how few is that? Don't forget the katakana is already taking up 11 kana spaces(23 character spaces) Think more on the wikipedia server load for all these words. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher 14:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The server load? Seriously? Erigu (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this passage from VG/GL has been brought up before:

Japanese titles should only be provided for games of Japanese origin whose official English name differs significantly from its Japanese name. Phonetic transcriptions are, as a rule, not considered to be significantly different and thus do not warrant the inclusion of Japanese titles. However, games known in English-speaking countries by their phonetic Japanese titles (e.g. Katamari Damacy) are an exception to this rule; these games should also have their Japanese titles included for clarity.

Though personally I am not very fond of that guideline, it would mean that even the kana for, say, Kingdom Hearts should not be included – the exception states, however, that it should be given if the English release adopted the Japanese title (consisting of actual Japanese words). More examples of that exception would be Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne and Ōkami. Prime Blue (talk) 10:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I did mention the first sentence, but yeah the second sentence, in bold, is even more clearcut. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 12:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Just so we're clear: would you consider the Japanese text (i.e. the title in kanji and/or kana) superfluous, in such cases? Erigu (talk) 13:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Japanese titles including kanji would apply to the aforementioned exception as they would either be significantly different from the English title (e.g. Seiken Densetsu), or would be adopted for the English release along with the Japanese pronunciation (e.g. Ōkami). Furthermore, it seems the issue discussed here is already covered in existing guidelines, though not in VG/GL, but in MOS-JP itself: Give the romanization for any name or term written in kanji or kana when the Japanese pronunciation is different from the English pronunciation.

So, the romanization would have to be dropped from titles like Kingdom Hearts, Seiken Densetsu 2 (since the pronunciation of the number is two/tsū and, thus, does not differ) and Akumajō Dracula (same here with Dracula/Dorakyura), whereas it would have to be kept for titles such as Mario Kart 64 (since the pronunciation of the number is not sixty-four/shikkusutī-fō but rokujūyon and, thus, differs).

The guidelines from my last edit dictate that the kanji and kana would have to be dropped from Kingdom Hearts (though I'm personally not happy with removing it) and, of course, kept for Seiken Densetsu 2 and Akumajō Dracula due to the exceptions. Prime Blue (talk) 15:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Correction should be applied for the description about apostrophe

I was reading bits and pieces of the Daikanyama vs. Daikan'yama debate, and noticed that it was pointed out that this MOS contains the text:

Use of apostrophes should be avoided except in the case of the syllabic "n" followed by a vowel (see "Body text", below).

This sounds like nothing but an error. Those who know the correct way to apply the apostrophe in revised Hepburn romaji should already know that apostrophe is used between syllabic N and a proceeding vowel or y. It is also unnecessary as it already states "Revised Hepburn romanization (described below) should be used in all cases, excepting..." While the inclusion of additional description about the usage of apostrophe was supposed to help reiterate what's already known about revised Hepburn, in turn it's just adding confusion because it sounds like it might be one of the exceptions that are supposed to exist.

The sentence should first distinguish itself either as a new rule or as a clarification of an already stated rule. In the case of the latter, it could be removed entirely as it is redundant and also adds only confusion rather than clarification. The need for the additional emphasis on the usage of apostrophe is not apparent. We have already stated that we're using Revised Hepburn at this point in the text. —Tokek (talk) 14:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The relevant edits were made two years ago: , , . Also, I really have no idea what "i)(i" is supposed to mean or where the notation comes from. The relevant discussion, according to the timestamp, was: —Tokek (talk) 14:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The "i)(i" thing was added because someone got it into their head that an apostrophe was needed between two similar vowels. I agree that it's unnecessary and I've removed it as pointless. The apostrophe bit should remain, though I've clarified it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Tokek: There are non-standard versions of Hepburn which apply apostrophes in cases of i's and n and an (i.e. Ei'ichi and Sen'nin); it turns out that this is NOT standard Hepburn. But sometimes one sees it (i.e. Viz Media's version of Rurouni Kenshin) WhisperToMe (talk) 05:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

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