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| :Please discuss. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 11:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | :Please discuss. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 11:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra ] and ]. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- ] (]) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC) | ::Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra ] and ]. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- ] (]) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :::Jaakobou is right. If you want to revamp the entire article, be open to discussion and explain your changes. -- ] (]) 08:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Background violence
I changed the section "background", which is quite vague, to "Background violence", which is what the section was about anyway. I added two subheadings, separating out the Israeli and Palestinian experiences of violence. Even though they are related, it does not seem that people can agree about "who started it," which is a pointless venture after all, so maybe each 'side' needs its own space to relate experiences of violence. There is now a section with a solid paragraph dealing with attacks on Israelis, and at least a few sentences on attacks on Palestinians are now due for balance.
- It can be argued that Sharon's statements to the press, reported by Time, do not belong in "stated goals," but they also do not belong in "criticism," because they refer to a statement that Sharon did indeed make. Some of the charges of 'synthesis' were vaguely correct, but when I tried to go in and contextualize Sharon's statement so that it was no longer synthesis, but background, it got deleted again. Thus, I have moved the comment to the Background violence section, and if it gets deleted, well that's just undeniable POV-pushing.
- I must add, that, God this is unpleasant (no surprise to any of us, is it?). I am doing my best, as many others have done before me, to try to accommodate the perspective of those I disagree with, and I have yet to see them reciprocate. This is, after all, a page about a month-long Israeli offensive, with multiple attacks, not about a month of bombings in Israel. If you want such a page, create it somehow, don;t delete basic facts from this one. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, its presence in "criticism" was profoundly ridiculous. Was Sharon criticizing himself — for something he hadn't yet done?? <eleland/talkedits> 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Right, for some, the position seemed to be that the purpose of the report was only to criticize him, not to report on his statement and the actions following. This too, is a synthesis approach to the issue, however. Other people just wanted to use Time as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LamaLoLeshLa (talk • contribs) 17:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, its presence in "criticism" was profoundly ridiculous. Was Sharon criticizing himself — for something he hadn't yet done?? <eleland/talkedits> 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- I must add, that, God this is unpleasant (no surprise to any of us, is it?). I am doing my best, as many others have done before me, to try to accommodate the perspective of those I disagree with, and I have yet to see them reciprocate. This is, after all, a page about a month-long Israeli offensive, with multiple attacks, not about a month of bombings in Israel. If you want such a page, create it somehow, don;t delete basic facts from this one. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm restoring the previous "background" label - becuase the current structure is inappropriate and misleading - the content of the "violence against Palestinians" section is the Sharon quote, and no matter what your position is regarding this quote, it is not, in and of itself, violence. The article also implies that Palestinian suicide attacks in Cafes and restaurants are attacks against Israeli military targets. We can continue to discuss where, if at all , the Sharon quote belongs, but the current section structure is worse than before. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Sharon quote belongs in "Stated goals" where it used to be. And there are no NPOV issues about it, so I fail to understand how it comes to be tagged.
- Meanwhile, there are severely POV problem with the lede, which states "the Palestinian Authority did not manage to fully address damaged infrastructure for approximately two years after the invasions" - as if this had nothing to do with the IDF shooting dead 13 UN workers in the camp, along with Iain Hook, the UNWRA leader of the reconstruction (Nov 2002). PR 08:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The only things that belong in a section titled ‘Stated goals’ are official statements, made at the beginning of the operation, as to its aims. If Sharon had said at the start of ODS that “The goal of ODS is to hit Palestinians...cause them losses” – it would be appropriate for that section. It is not appropriate to put in that section an offhand comment made in a cafeteria a month before the operation, under different circumstances (i.e: before a majority of the suicide bombings whose prevention was the stated goal), which was only dragged up in the aftermath of the operation, by some sources who in retrospect wanted to tie that statement to the operation. That statement can be mention in the criticism section – but not anywhere else in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- It must be questionable whether an "official statement" explaining the intentions of a heavily criticised lead actor deserves any prominence atall. Otherwise we'd think that WWII started because the Polish attacked a German border post.
- And the fact that Sharon made statements which some people read as being an invitation to communal punishment before the most serious suicide attacks on Israel makes his stated intentions more significant and not less.
- Meanwhile, we have a statement in the lead that extends the time-scale of the article to cover an extraordinary 2 years - and yet, make it appear that the delays in reconstuction were caused by inefficiencies in the PA. Again, it's like making the fire that drove the defenders of the Warsaw Ghetto into the hands of the Germans was caused by them playing with candles. PR 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The stement was not made as an official claim of the goals of the operation, so it can't go under the heading of "stated goals". It's as simple as that. I agree the official justifications are not always the full story, and perhaps we can just eliminate this 'stated goals' section altogether. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The only things that belong in a section titled ‘Stated goals’ are official statements, made at the beginning of the operation, as to its aims. If Sharon had said at the start of ODS that “The goal of ODS is to hit Palestinians...cause them losses” – it would be appropriate for that section. It is not appropriate to put in that section an offhand comment made in a cafeteria a month before the operation, under different circumstances (i.e: before a majority of the suicide bombings whose prevention was the stated goal), which was only dragged up in the aftermath of the operation, by some sources who in retrospect wanted to tie that statement to the operation. That statement can be mention in the criticism section – but not anywhere else in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Whether Sharon's statement is in Background or stated goals really should not continue to be a sticking point, at least in my opinion. It deserves to be in this entry. I'm still waiting to see those who say that attacks towards Palestinians prior to the Operation have been continually deleted, re-insert them. Please do. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Here is some info offered up by Eleland:
- The UN report on Jenin notes:
- 18. From the beginning of March until 7 May, Israel endured approximately 16 bombings, the large majority of which were suicide attacks. More than 100 persons were killed and scores more wounded. Throughout this period, the Government of Israel, and the international community, reiterated previous calls on the Palestinian Authority to take steps to stop terrorist attacks and to arrest the perpetrators of such attacks. 19. During this same period, IDF conducted two waves of military incursions primarily in the West Bank, and air strikes against both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The first wave began on 27 February 2002 and ended on approximately 14 March. Those incursions, which Israel stated were in pursuit of Palestinians who had carried out attacks against Israelis, involved the use of ground troops, attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 fighter jets in civilian areas, including refugee camps, causing significant loss of life among civilians. 20. Over the course of two days, 8 and 9 March, 18 Israelis were killed in two separate Palestinian attacks and 48 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli raids that followed. 21. Israeli military retaliation for terrorist attacks was often carried out against Palestinian Authority security forces and installations. This had the effect of severely weakening the Authority's capacity to take effective action against militant groups that launched attacks on Israelis. Militant groups stepped into this growing vacuum and increased their attacks on Israeli civilians. In many cases, the perpetrators of these attacks left messages to the effect that their acts were explicitly in revenge for earlier Israeli acts of retaliation, thus perpetuating and intensifying the cycle of violence, retaliation and revenge. 22. It was against this backdrop that the most extensive Israeli military incursions in a decade, Operation Defensive Shield, were carried out. The proximate cause of the operation was a terrorist attack committed on 27 March in the Israeli city of Netanya..." LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Public support: citations please
Hello all, we are still in need of citations for the claim that bombings dropped by 50% after the operation. Someone motivated to do so, please locate it or we'll have to delete that info at some point soon. Thanks, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Issue fixed. Jaakobou 14:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Results
While it is correct that many people were arrested and a lot of damage was inflicted to Palestinian property during the operation. It is certainly not "the result" of the operation. The result of the operation is not a matter of what the operation did in fiscal action but the outcome as in "victory/defeat" and as such, notes about Palestinian loss of property - which could also be attributed to other factors btw - are improper for listing in that section. Jaakobou 20:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- So it is "correct" that people were arrested, and damage was inflicted on Palestinian property, but it was not a "result" of the military assault? You need to either adjust your glasses or buy a new dictionary. And what is "fiscal action" anyway? Both results, if verifiable and properly sourced, should be noted and listed in the main infobox. As they were until reverted. With respect and cordially etc. I came here via the Jenin link btw, not through stalking you Jaakobou. --Nickhh (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox Military Conflict says the result section of the infobox should summarize "the outcome of the conflict (e.g. "French victory")", not write everything that happened during and after it. This is what the casualties section and the text prose is for. I'll change it. -- Nudve (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually that's much better all round - you're right that there's no need to repeat detail in the infobox which can all be found elsewhere on the page. It was just the one-sidedness of what was there originally that was bothering me, ie that it listed all the benefits for Israel (and in a somewhat triumphalist manner) but nothing about the debit side for the Palestinians ... --Nickhh (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox Military Conflict says the result section of the infobox should summarize "the outcome of the conflict (e.g. "French victory")", not write everything that happened during and after it. This is what the casualties section and the text prose is for. I'll change it. -- Nudve (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Nudve,
Current result section, noting "IDF pullback" is incorrect. IDF secured what is considered a victory before 'pulling back'. For example, approx. 200 Palestinian militants surrendered in Jenin before the IDF moved out. The second operation was just a complementary one in a long term effort to stop the suicide bombings of civilians. Jaakobou 12:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC) add link 16:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Victory" is a difficult term to attribute to such counterinsurgency operations, in part due to the vagueness of the objective. The second operation was indeed complementary, which is why I put it down as a result. How would you describe the outcome of the battle? -- Nudve (talk) 14:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Victory is not difficult to attribute here since the smaller objectives were well defined as well as achieved. This Operation was part of (a) a successful campaign and (b) it was a successful operation within the successful campaign. Battle of Normandy, for example, is declared a "Decisive Allied victory" even though it was only a phase in Operation Overlord during WWII and did not end the war on its own. Jaakobou 16:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but the objective of the battle of Normandy was to conquer the coast of Normandy from Germany, which was achieved. Defensive Shield's objective was something like "elimination of Hamas infrastructure". I suppose "Israeli victory" is an option, but those statistics describing a decline in suicide bombings are really undue. Let's wait a while for further input from other users. -- Nudve (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Victory is not difficult to attribute here since the smaller objectives were well defined as well as achieved. This Operation was part of (a) a successful campaign and (b) it was a successful operation within the successful campaign. Battle of Normandy, for example, is declared a "Decisive Allied victory" even though it was only a phase in Operation Overlord during WWII and did not end the war on its own. Jaakobou 16:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- There's a fairly clear difference between the government stated goal for the whole campaign -- i.e. fighting terror (initiated mainly by Fatah actually, not Hamas) -- and the actual goals of Operation Defensive Shield, which were taking over the militants and their operation in certain places. The operation was successfully achieved with an Israeli victory against the Palestinian gunmen who surrendered themselves after being targeted at their intentionally selected, civilian base of operation.
- I don't mind leaving out the statistics. The main point though, is that the Israeli pullout from Jenin was certainly not backtracking in order to regroup, it was pulling out after the Palestinian militants surrendered, so there's no other way of describing this other than an Israeli victory.
- We don't deem Allied movement of forces from Normandy a "pullout" because they moved on to overtake Germany as well. Jaakobou 17:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment - whatever the outcome of this debate about victory/defeat/whatever, I'd just like to add that IMO the result absolutely must be short and concise. You can't write down everything that happenned in the operation, especially damage to infrastructure, which is never cited as a 'result' on Misplaced Pages (see Battle of Stalingrad, or something smaller like 2006 Lebanon War or Operation Changing Direction 11, all of which were devastating for infrastructure). As for the above debate, I'd personally write: Israeli success, launching of Operation Determined Path. -- Ynhockey 17:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'd have no problem with that. -- Nudve (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Public perceptions
- Most of this (all but the last two sentences) have just been deleted: "After Operation Defensive Shield, the number of suicide bombings in Israel subsequently decreased significantly, with the number of attacks in 2003 50 percent lower than in 2002, but it was not clear if the operation was the reason for this decrease. A poll conducted after the end of the operation indicated that 86 percent of Israeli Jews thought that the operation contributed to Israel's security. 54 percent thought the Operation has damaged Israel politically. In the final analysis, 90 percent of those surveyed asserted that the decision to launch Operation Defensive Shield was the correct decision. Views among Arab citizens of Israel were the opposite, with equally high numbers against the Operation." It was correct to delete all, not some of the data, since no citations have been added for any of the above sentences for three months now. Please find the citations and then you can add this back. But do not cut one portion of the study and leave another portion, without a citation - this strikes one as very inconsistent. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- LamaLoLeshLa,
- Offtopics 1: I'd request that you please add yourself to the "just been deleted" part of your comment, there's no reason to shy about that edit.
- Offtopics 2: I've got other obligations and will probably give this a serious look tomorrow, but the tone of your edit summary felt a bit... well, angry.
- Content-wise: Usually material which is reasonable/uncontested and is written in a neutral fashion has a chance of lasting a bit longer even without a source. You've raised a legitimate concern regarding the 50 percent and I've just resolved it fairly easily and within a short period of time from the moment I've noticed it. In general, I somewhat agree with your removal of the Public perception section to the talk page since it has been a bit over a two months. However, it is still a reasonable section with no exceptional claims and it would be best if you try and validate the material and only if unable to, make note of that as you remove it from the article.
- Cheers, Jaakobou 20:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC) clarify 20:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Think I need to look up policy on talk page formatting. I've been tryin to make things more readable this way but I keep getting comments like the above, based on the impression that I am trying to avoid signing my comments. That's not my intent. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh my lord
How many times do I have to quote high-quality reliable sources which explain that the background violence was mutual and killed more Palestinians than Israelis before we can get anything other than suicide bombings into the "Background" section? Why does "Aftermath" apply exclusively to Israelis? Why is Jenin presented as, "Oh, we thought for a second something was wrong there, but hey it was all OK," when this blatantly contradicts the investigations which all found strong evidence of major, dramatic IDF war crimes? Why is anything not recognizable as aggressive hasbara shuffled off into some kind of "criticism section" where it is presented as random, dubious "allegations" or "claims?" And why do normal editing techniques never get the job done on Israeli-Palestinian articles?? <eleland/talkedits> 03:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Background: Can you please clarify the sources you brought forward regarding the background changes you are interested in making?
- Massacre allegations: The massacre claims were false and the media reported this while repeating the new claims - also unverified just as the massacre claims which turned out to be false:
- Cordially, Jaakobou 11:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think 'background' sections for battles and military operations are meant to provide the reasoning for the battles/operations, not anything that happenned right before the event. That is, the background section for this article should say why the Israelis decided to launch Operation Defensive Shield. Anything else is not relevant. It's really not a question of verifiability at all. -- Ynhockey 12:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Jaakobou, the sources which describe the background to the operation are already in the article, they are just being culled for the anti-Israel attacks, with the anti-Palestinian attacks ignored. Simply read paragraphs 14 through 22 of the UN report (which you still have apparently not read, despite often citing it.) You are the one talking about "massacre allegations" and death tolls, not me. If you would only READ THE SOURCES you would know what the actual allegations are, which have nothing whatsoever to do with the meaningless emotive term "massacre" that has become a focus for Israeli propagandists.
- I want you both to tell me, right now, whether you have read in full the UN, Amnesty, and HRW reports on Jenin. Because over and over you talk as if you haven't, and if you haven't, you shouldn't be editing this article or even talking about it. <eleland/talkedits> 03:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
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POV discussion
Please raise POV concerns alongside reliable sources that would help expand the content. Relevant content could be added, but I would suggest the edit would first be pasted here for discussion.
With respect, Jaakobou 08:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hundreds of Palestinians dead???
The Palestinians claimed in the beginning for hundreds of deaths, but as later revealed, 'only' 54 died. Look at ] where Amnesty says:
According to hospital lists reviewed by Amnesty International there were 54 Palestinian deaths between 3 and 17 April 2002 in both Jenin refugee camp and Jenin city as a result of the incursion and subsequent fighting. This figure includes seven women, four children and six men over the age of 55. Six had been crushed by houses. The body of one person known to have died by being crushed in his house has not been recovered Tierecke (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but the fighting was not limited to Jenin. There were also the Battle of Nablus, the Siege of Bethlehem, and others engagements. -- Nudve (talk) 13:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- The figure of 54 only refers to the period from 3 to 17 April. The same Amnesty document says that over the whole period of Operation Defensive Shield about 500 Palestinians were killed. MFlet1 (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- The figure of 54 dead in Jenin comes from "hospital lists", bodies counted in the hospital. It cannot be considered complete. As Amnesty International tells us, "According to hospital lists ... not a single corpse was brought into the hospital from 5 until 15 April". They also say "When Amnesty International delegates went to Jenin Hospital on 17 April they found only "walking wounded" - those who had managed to make their own way through the IDF cordon. Doctors and diplomatic or other military experts who visited the scene, aware that in armed combat there is usually a ratio of three or four seriously wounded people to one dead person, wondered where were the heavily wounded." (Amnesty also says "Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for" - unfortunately, I can't tell what this is supposed to mean, and they're not reporting their own observations).
- Nor is it the case that the UN restricts the number of dead in the way that's been claimed, since the UN report says that a PA official "alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated".
- All in all, we're in no position to say what the death toll was, the UN report doesn't even exclude the possibility of it being over 500 in Jenin alone. It seems a great shame that a well-referenced section on the only point on which everyone agrees was removed from the main article. PR 13:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I am sad that the number of deaths is a source of discord here. Whether there was 1 or 1 million means that there was death and that is wrong. Every religion on earth holds life as sacred but I see that people kill for any reason, whether for there safety or for Gods will. Life is life you ever you are or what religion, color, beliefs you have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.236.194.136 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Erekat
I think it be best to avoid inflating the Erekat narrative to the point where he gives ridiculous replies and is called a liar by the Israeli media. Keep it simple. Jaakobou 16:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is a direct question to Erekat, it is only fair to include his response. Try including both sides of the story, not just the one that fits the narrative of your liking. Nableezy (talk) 16:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds like a personal attack to me. I'm ok with adding his narrative response if we also add the Israeli narrative that he is a liar and that the media is suffering from a Jenin massacre syndrome. In fact, I prefer the more complete version that includes the perspective of both sides rather than just a bland text that says he was widely quoted. Let me know which one you like. Jaakobou 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- If that sounded like a personal attack you have a questionable understanding of the word attack (or was that one too?). If you want to go this way we can, but it will also include the war crimes allegations that came from many, many human rights organizations. Ill leave the text you inserted in while I compile sources that tears it apart. Nableezy (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- And all this because you dont want to include the answer to a question in the references and notes. Nableezy (talk) 19:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also, could you say where you got this because the only place I can find a record of this story is in various websites not associated with the National Post. Where did you get these quotations? Nableezy (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Heyo Nableezy,
- I got it from (wait for it) the National Post. I'd be happy to email you a copy of it if you want. Anyways, I think it would be easier on us if we focus on the minor version. Trust me when I say that you won't like the more complete version. Currently the article is already biased against Israel with it's "culture of impunity" and "prima facie". I wouldn't expect the article will get even more pro-Palestinian if we place in some of the Israeli perspectives in there. Anyways, I'd be happy to work in some text from my sources if you're that interested in inflating the Erekat narratives even beyond the current status.
- p.s. I suggest you review the WP:NPA policy. Specifically, the part about commenting on content and not on contributors. Saying I prefer a certain narrative is not the best way of working in a collaborative spirit.
- Warm regards, Jaakobou 08:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- You carried on an edit war because of "inflating Erekat" in the friggin references, what do you expect me to say. I prefer not to enable email so Ill just take your word for it. But be careful of long quotations from a copyrighted source, that is a no-no around here. Nableezy (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree about the copyright concerns and thank you for the help. Disagree with your aggressive approach (personal attacks) and changing the meaning of text ato say something different than what the source was saying as you approached the copyright concerns.
- Warm regards non-the less :)
- -- Jaakobou 20:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have yet to make a personal attack, please stop saying that I did. I dont understand why you changed the last edit. Why does it need to say "whispered about" and what is the point of saying the soldiers were listening to Alanis Morisette? What does that have to do with anything? And why is there a need to say he refused to elaborate out of fear of collaborators? What is the point of that? Nableezy (talk) 22:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- And I made one mistake from reading the convoluted text you had originally inserted, did not make that mistake twice. It was not clear to me that part was a quote from the Palestinian legislature and not from the reporter. So try and assume I was acting in good faith rather then imply some intent in that one mistake in cleaning up a copyvio. Nableezy (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- You carried on an edit war because of "inflating Erekat" in the friggin references, what do you expect me to say. I prefer not to enable email so Ill just take your word for it. But be careful of long quotations from a copyrighted source, that is a no-no around here. Nableezy (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds like a personal attack to me. I'm ok with adding his narrative response if we also add the Israeli narrative that he is a liar and that the media is suffering from a Jenin massacre syndrome. In fact, I prefer the more complete version that includes the perspective of both sides rather than just a bland text that says he was widely quoted. Let me know which one you like. Jaakobou 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits
I'm open to discussion to possible changes. But you can't make large changes to the article in one swing that change some of the natural and neutral reading of it. Discuss. Jaakobou 07:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
- Please discuss. Jaakobou 11:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra WP:PRESERVE and WP:NPOV. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Jaakobou is right. If you want to revamp the entire article, be open to discussion and explain your changes. -- Nudve (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra WP:PRESERVE and WP:NPOV. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
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