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WMF Board

Dear Jimbo, this announcement has raised quite a few eyebrows on German wikipedia, see discussion. Some people argue that a board seat seems to have a price tag of 2 million dollars. Given your rather tough stance on paid editing, are you comfortable with this development? Your statement would be highly appreciated. Greetings, Stefan64 (talk) 18:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Board seats are not for sale. "So there's no tie between the grant and Omidyar Network taking a board seat. That's absolutely not part of the conversation. It something that Omidyar Network likes to do with our organizations, because we think we tend to be able to help and we have experience, but there's no tie with the grant that we've made to Wikimedia Foundation."

Since the discussion is in German, which I can barely read and can't really write effectively at all, I think it'd be best if you asked Arne (in transit back to Germany now) or Erik (probably in transit too, though I'm not sure of his exact schedule) to join that discussion. Ting and Michael Snow, while not native speakers, are also much better able than I am to write in German.

I'm 100% comfortable with the appointment of Matt to the board. He brings serious expertise, he shares our values and mission. He also was instrumental in getting us a $2 million grant, a not-insubstantial achievement.

I really like the Omidyar nonprofit grant making model. They understand, because of their roots in the venture capital world, that to be successful requires more than just money: it requires expertise, access to a network of people, the ability to make connections, etc. Just as traditional venture capital firms provide a lot more than just money to startups - and have been incredibly successful at generating new businesses, Omidyar provides a lot more than just money to their nonprofit grantees - and I have every reason to think that this will be successful.

I think that people who are concerned that this is "buying a seat" can take some comfort in the fact that not one board member supports the notion that it would be ok to "sell" a seat on the board. But additionally, I think it's important to remember that it would be absolutely impossible for anyone to get their money's worth, if they have some nefarious purpose in mind. A board seat simply wouldn't be worth $2 million - how the heck could you ever make anything back out of it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your statement. I have posted a link to it on German wikipedia. Greetings, Stefan64 (talk) 00:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

May it had prohibited some discussions, if the board had a bit more offensive told, why he's a good man for the board. In the press release it's really a bit in a strange connection. And this together with the actual critics at de:WP depending the sponsoring/advertising on the "Wikimedia Deutschland" Website, the mood at de:WP actually is very down. Germans sometimes are... - strange. Or very critical. Or both. But at the end it would be a little much to make all in the way we're Germans are contented. I belive, we're never all can be getting contented. Marcus Cyron (talk) 00:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that the communications could have been handled better, but I also feel pretty sure that when everyone gets back from Wikimania, it'll all sort itself out just fine. I think Matt is going to make a great board member, we have all been impressed with him so far.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You musn't convince me - I'm pretty fine with that. But I know my fellow Germans. ;) Marcus Cyron (talk) 11:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW, Ting has made a very helpful statement in the German Misplaced Pages. I agree with Marcus that communications could have been better: the board should have foreseen that the combination of the two events - the 2 million grant and Matt's seat on the board - will raise questions. I think I'll post a proposal concerning communications on the strategy-wiki. Adrian Suter (talk) 14:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The Florida non-profit Internet Review Corporation has weighed in on this event at its blog, Akahele. Here is a link to the article, Omidyar venturing out. I hope it's enlightening. -- Thekohser 19:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations and a question

Hi Jimbo. Congratulations on the 3 million mark. That's a really amazing feat.

On a less positive note, I'm wondering if you're aware of the ongoing campaign of harassment, stalking and intimidation that goes on here against editors who hold minority perspectives. I've been hounded and stalked for months now for suggesting that we abide by the neutral point of view policy. My harassers have used the administrative noticeboards for a series of frivolous reports against me that is time consuming and harassing to keep track of, they've posted incessantly about me on various talk and discussion pages, they've made repeated attempts to have me blocked and banned. They also stalk me around article space and disrupt my contributions. Now they've gotten Arbcom to impose a restriction that I'm not allowed to discuss or object to this censorship and POV pushing anywhere on Misplaced Pages. I find this Orwellian and totally unacceptable. It reminds of the Nazis and book burning, and I'm deeply troubled by it.

Is there a way to rein in those who push to block, ban and intimidate anyone who attempts to balance our article coverage on political subjects? I think it's very important that good faith editors are treated with respect no matter what their opinions are, but that hasn't been my experience. Thanks for your thoughts on this serious issue. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What this actually is is a case of the convicted attempting the no, you are bit, which has probably been going on for as long as there's been lawyers in the world. ChildofMidnight was found to be one of the major instigators in a recent ArbCom case, and has been running around the project ever since crying "victim!" This is but the latest stop, with the added twist of the last few stops around the boards containing accusations and comparisons of Nazism. Tarc (talk) 03:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Tarc is one of those relentlessly hounding me. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

ChildofMidnight, I haven't looked into the content dispute here, and I have no idea what political positions you or any of the other editors hold. But I just visited your user talk page in which you compare wikipedia editors with whom you are having a disagreement with Nazis. This behavior is not acceptable at all, and pretty much puts an end to any possibility of reconciliation. I don't have any sympathy for this approach to working for change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I guess we disagree on how damaging acts of intimidation, harassment and stalking are to building an encyclopedia and how dangerous biased one-sided information and propaganda can be. Thank you for responding. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt if we disagree about that. The place where we disagree is the notion that "The best way to work against bad things happening is to call people Nazis". It is not the best way at all. It tends to lose the very audience you want to appeal to, because you are engaging in the very behavior that you claim to want to eliminate, when you harass people (and I do consider it harassment) by throwing insults in their direction.

Consider me a potentially sympathetic audience. I've been made aware of your issue, but only barely. If I went to your talk page and saw a polite, friendly, well-reasoned and well-evidenced explanation of what you think has happened, I would at least be in a position to make a judgment. Instead, what I found was you behaving in a harassing way, and found some diffs where you were being extremely irritating by changing other people's talk comments, even one which was asking you to stop doing that. Wow. That's just not a very effective strategy for you to achieve positive change.

My point is to think about me as an example. You claim to have been censored and harassed and intimidated and stalked. I'm asked to look into it. I do, and I immediately get the exact opposite impression. Is that really an effective strategy for you?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I know you might be busy Jimbo, but if you are weighing in on the current situation, the heart of the event is Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Obama_articles:_ChildofMidnight--_{Sky Attacker} 06:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I call them how I see them Jimbo. I've been restricted from editing certain articles based on the flimsiest of evidence, but I've obeyed those restrictions. The stalking and harassment continued. When I was followed to other articles and told I couldn't edit those, I moved on. The stalking and harassment continued. I was finally able to get some restrictions to keep two of the worst harassers and stalkers away from me, but they've continued to file reports against me and to go after me as best they can on and off-wiki. I'm here to work on Misplaced Pages and to build articles, not to do constant battle, dig diffs against and play wikilawyer. There is no content dispute because I'm not editing any of the articles that were in dispute (those harassing me caused a great enough disruption that Arbcom chose to restrict me from working on them). Yet I'm still being stalked and harassed. And now I'm told I'm not even allowed to mention the censorship abuse and harassment that some parties engage on at certain articles. I think it's disgusting. I think it's despicable. I think it's outrageous. I think it has strong similarities to the type of censorship, intimidation, and abuse that have taken place in history. If others disagree that is their right. I'm not good at waging these diff battles, because I'm here to improve articles and I don't enjoy that kind of bureaucracy. The actions of those harassing me and their edit histories speak for themselves as mine does. On days like today I am unable to do much article work because I have to deal with this endless nonsense, so that's very frustrating. Hopefully tomorrow will be better. But I am by no means the only one who suffers incivility, personal attacks, harassment and abuse from these editors. A look at Tarc's editing history, for example, show's his nastiness towards editors with whom he disagrees. I had hoped Arbcom would work towards alleviating that kind of behavior, but instead they encouraged it by sanctioning the editors enduring it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I repeat my advice to you. You will be better served by stopping the personal attacks, removing the absurd Nazi stuff, and instead documenting in a neutral and factual way (without accusations) the things that you are concerned about. You say "A look at Tarc's editing history, for example, shows his nastiness towards editors with whom he disagrees." Ok, I looked quickly but didn't see what you meant. What you might want to do here is something like this:

1. Apologize to the community and to Tarc and others for creating such a dramatic stir. This may feel uncomfortable or difficult, but it is the right way to move forward if you want to achieve positive change.
2. Explain, using neutral language and diffs, what got you so upset in the first place. "I'm sorry that I got so dramatic and emotional. The reason for it was the following set of diffs which show behavior that I think was clearly uncivil towards me. I felt frustrated and behaved in a way that is less than what I expect of myself and others, but I hope people can forgive me for that and look to help all of us... including the people I'm complaining about... to improve. It is painful to not have it acknowledged that I have a legitimate complaint, and I'm sorry that my outrageous behavior made that more difficult."

You're a longtime editor. As I said above, I don't really know what this dispute is about. What I'm encouraging you to do is to reform your own behavior so that, if you do have a legitimate complaint here (and I have no idea about that, because through all the heat you've generated, there has been precious little light), people are better able to hear you.

I speak words here that I know to be wise, but I also know to be difficult. I have sometimes failed to follow my own advice, so I know how hard it can be when we are feeling emotional. I am therefore not trying to lecture you, but to reach out to you with some thoughts that I think you will find helpful in the long run.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This isn't some fan site where propagandizing is okay and biased and innaccurate information isn't a big deal. This is a very popular and influential encyclopedia and an important information source for millions of people. You seem very taken with the idea of civility, but are either naive or unaware of the gangland atmosphere that goes on here.

Harassment, intimidation, and stalking are disruptive and damaging. I apologize that I'm not better at gathering diffs and spending my time playing wikilawyer. I don't conduct campaigns via e-mail and I don't seek out other editors or sympathetic admins with similar views to push my arguments. I try to follow the rules and to participate in a transparent and open way.

I participated in the Obama Arbcom at Wizardman's request and spent hours gathering dozens of diffs of the incivility, personal attacks and other violations that took place on the article talk page by the self appointed "article defenders" and "page patrollers". So I was very surprised when the committee's decision sanctioned the editors at the receiving end of this behavior. The conclusion that those trying to abide by the neutral point of view policy and to include content from various perspectives were disruptive because whenever they tried to discuss or add content they were attacked is pretty ridiculous. I have abided by their ruling, but the abuse hasn't stopped.

You asked what the dispute is about, but there's nothing left in dispute because I'm not even allowed to edit those articles and haven't done so in months. Now I'm not even allowed to discuss the articles that are censored by these abusive actions against anyone with a different perspective. This isn't a content dispute, it's about editors wanting me gone because I'm outspoken that censorship, POV pushing, and bullying are improper. They don't like to discuss content or policies because this is about having their way by any means necessary including pushing out those they disagree with.

I don't stalk anyone. I don't harass anyone. I've asked these individuals to leave me alone. But nothing has worked. They've chased others off Misplaced Pages as well. I'm making you aware of it. I understand your points about remaining calm and going through the appropriate procedures, but that hasn't worked. Thanks for your insights and suggestions. Take care and enjoy your weekend. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Not even sure why I'm bothering, but CoM, do you understand the concept of arbitration? When two or more parties are in disagreement and cannot come to an amiable solution, one avenue is to present your case to a neutral, uninvolved 3rd party who will read what is presented and then render a judgment. This particular judgment came down against you, heavily. No one is stalking you. You are not a good-faith editor who is being hounded or harassed. You have not abided by the ArbCom decision, as you have violated your restrictions several times. You are not the noble and weary champion crusading against "biased and innaccurate(sic) information". You did not adhere to NPOV. You were not "invited" as a guest to an ArCom case; your presence was compelled due to being one of the prime instigators of the mess. You had your say on these matters, and lost. It is time to stop acting like a aggrieved and wronged party, appellations which you are most certainly not entitled to.

What you are is a very good contributor to non-political articles, who for reasons unknown to the rest of us become a petulant, Nazi-labeling fanatic when you come within spitting distance of political content...especially when it relates to the current president. Good editing coupled with atrocious behavior certainly can get one pretty far around here, but sooner or later, the fall comes. Ask Science Apologist or Betacommand.

I don't care about apologies. Just take all the Nazi junk off your talk page...images, captions, and text... (including the OMG CENSORED shtick), give a pledge to stop carrying on as you are doing above, and stop doing it in other areas of the project, and when the arbcom restrictions expire, rejoin the political arena if you desire. Tarc (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

CoM is routinely given the most hideous abuse and utterly stalked and harrassed, for highlighting a most obvious Wiki issue: the article Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories has nearly 200 references, yet it is believed by enough people that NPOV means that it cannot appear in the main text of either Barack Obama, or any of its important sub-articles, not even as a single link. Patent nonsense if you ask me, and I could care less about Obama either way. The BetaCommand insult is typical, and utterly undeserved. MickMacNee (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

There isn't much sense in rehashing content disputes here, but all I have to say now is that ChildofMidnight's NPOV assertions have been broadly rejected by a wide variety of editors. Consensus cannot override core policies of course, and if a user truly feels that that is what has happened here, then there are avenues to pursue to redress such a wrong (obviously I do not believe it is wrong, just phrasing it here from Com's point-of-view). Call me crazy, but invoking Hitler and generally bad-mouthing other users, admins, and ArbCom members across project-space is probably not the right choice to make here.

And Mick, while riding to the defense of others is usually noble, given the manner in which you address other editors I can't really say you're coming across as a strong character witness for CoM here. Tarc (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• I haven't actually been involved in that particular content issue MickMacNee, and I haven't investigated the quality of the sources regarding it. My concern is more general in regards to how editors are treated, whatever their point of view. The atmosphere at certain articles and talk pages is vicious and the treatment of outsiders trying to comment and improve these articles with additional perspectives or to find out where and how they can be included is dismissive, hostile and accusatory. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• Well Jimbo, ChildofMidnight has magnanimously archived the offending material, so that about wraps up this thread it seems. Cheers. Tarc (talk) 23:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it in no way resolves the problem that I brought to Mr. Wales attention. I hope that he will be proactive in keeping a look out for pack mentality and the abusive behaviors I described. In his role as Misplaced Pages's leader he has an opportunity to make clear in no uncertain terms that intimidation, stalking, and harassment in order to censor those with minority viewpoints is totally unacceptable and that whatever our viewpoints Wikipedians are entitled to be treated with respect and to have their opinions heard. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Imprecise referencing could impede Misplaced Pages's quality improvement

Dear Jimbo,

I want make a suggestion which I deem very important for the future direction of Misplaced Pages.

Currently, the ref element is quite imprecise. Look at the following example:

This is sentence number one. This is sentence number two.<ref>This is a reference.</ref>

It can be observed that in this example it is not clear whether the reference is linked to both sentences or to sentence two only. It is thus proposed to change the reference syntax. Look at the next example, now:

This is sentence number one.<ref source="This is a reference.">This is sentence number two.</ref>

Now, it is quite clear which sentence is referenced. This could be a tremendous improvement. The following features could become possible:

1. Every sentence is referenced and in every case it is clear which reference belongs to a sentence.
2. Future editors know, if they are allowed to put in a new sentence between sentence one and sentence two, without pretending this sentence to be referenced by the final ref element.
3. References could be shown in a small box when the mouse pointer is above a sentence.
4. The 100% reliable Misplaced Pages could become reality!

I hope you support my suggestion. 92.225.137.203 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I see merit in what you are saying. I note that what we currently do follows standard academic tradition, but you make an interesting point for sure. The syntax you recommend could still render to the end reader in the traditional manner, but would make it clearer to other editors just which part of the entry is supported by the reference.

There would be many difficulties with changing to this, and there are probably some downsides that I haven't considered. One problem may be that reference syntax is already frightening to newcomers. A more precise style has benefits, as you have outlined, but when putting in a reference is too complicated, many people will look at it and decide it isn't worth the tedium of figuring out how, leaving us with a net *less* referencing overall. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the way in which this editor has formatted his proposal would render Sentence #2 into a reference for Sentence #1. The proposal also currently exceeds by a long margin the requirement for referencing, not only on Misplaced Pages but in any reference source. Risker (talk) 16:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, under the current software, it would. I think he's proposing a change to the software, so that we wrap statements in the article with references that support those statements, ratehr than having the references simply follow after the statements. The idea is to more precisely identify which statements the author believes are supported by the reference. That part of the proposal seems clearly beneficial to me, although at some cost of ease of use (perhaps).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This idea has been suggested many times in the past, and we have always denied it for 2 reasons:

1. It will make reading the edit window even more difficult because the flow of text is even further disrupted
2. It is impossible with that system under the current software to have multiple/overlapping refs for a part of the text, which is not an unreasonable expectation when you have this type of refs.

Implementing this properly, circumventing these problems, will require substantial and exhaustive changes in the very core of the software. I think the only way to do it, is to basically decouple the references from the actual content and keeping them in totally separate database tables for the article. The problem with this is that it becomes more difficult to reuse content, print content, and will likely make usage of Javascript a requirement to edit the encyclopedia (because refs are obligatory and matching the refs with the content in editing will almost be impossible without Javascript). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The contributors we do/should value, that is spontaneous IPs or inexperienced registered users (until we start to screw them over with Flagged Revisions), don't actually know the difference between either version, and already unbeknowingly routinely add info between a sentence and its accompanying ref, and won't be affected by either version. Anybody who is aware of the problem you rightly highlight, will already be able to avoid not doing it. MickMacNee (talk) 22:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Screw them over how? By letting them edit articles they haven't been allowed to edit for years? :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I just created an article on Bernard Foing and what I've been doing is naming the reference and then just repeating the reference name for each time I use the source to support a claim. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Inter-articles consensuses happen...well, when?

Jimbo, would it be useful to have a "policy about policy-making": a meta policy? (Ignore this question if we already have one, and maybe some kind visitor to the page can simply point it out to me.)

What made me curious is this: Remember that a user begged you to get involved in the content dispute about images in the Death of Neda Agha-Soltan article? You finally got curiouos (sooo cool!) and even came over to the (then separate) Neda Agha-Soltan biographical article and made a very helpful edit, then came back and said on your talkpage (something to the effect of) that it appeared a single article just about the event was probably going to become consensus and that seemed reasonable.

OK. Anyway -- now it turns out that at an article about a completely different event, "Disappearance of Madeleine McCann," at sometime in the distant past a consensus had been reached to not include a biographical infobox for the child, under the rationale that the article is about the event of her disappearance is not her biography per se. So now an an editor privy to that consensus believes this is the basis for a policy project-wide (to the obvious result that, for example, the infobox for Neda Agha-Soltan that had become incorporated into a section at "Death of Neda Agha-Soltan" upon the two articles' merger would now have to be removed, among a raft of instances elsewhere throughout the project).

My "meta" question is: When and how do consensuses carry over among articles? Hey, maybe lightening will strike twice and you find this of enough interest to offer an offhand comment! ↜Just M E here , now 19:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that there is no simple answer to the question, right? These two cases are similar in some ways, different in some other ways, and I'm not sure that it is possible in the general case to come up with an overall consensus "rule" for precisely what the scope of WP:BLP1E is, nor when a biographical infobox should be included. I would be vaguely inclined to argue for consistency - that is to say, if a subject fails BLP1E, so that we end up with an article about the event rather than the person, then we shouldn't have an infobox, and if we end up with an article about the person, we should have an infobox. But there might be sensible objections to that approach which I haven't yet heard.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your take, Jim. Yet, I'd be worried that sometimes too much insistency on consistency or insistence on consistence might end up sorta Procrustean: "Hey! if an album isn't in its own article, screw its being treated in a sidebar." To what what benefit to readers, though? Articles really so often are about compound, constituent subjects, each not quite notable to be treated separately. Sure, Elizabeth Smart has her own article apart from that of her eponymous case, due to notable work she's done as a activist. But -- check out the currently-in-the-news "Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard": this case's suspected perp has a "criminal" infobox, why not?

• Also check out how a bio for obscure model Jasmine Fiore and a bio for minor reality TV actor Ryan Jenkins were both merged into the article about the recent notable event "Murder of Jasmine Fiore" (via a talkpage discussion here) -- yet the preexisting bio infoboxes for both were kept in the new article.
• Barack Obama has its politician infobox, along with, further down, US Presidential styles of address.

Why limit these arbitrarily? Much as do sidebars in magazines and newspapers, don't they in these cases serve readers, as well? ↜Just M E here , now 02:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, there is just no substitute for kind and thoughtful discussion and judgment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

You, as always, d' man, Jimbo! ↜Just M E here , now 03:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

are you misquoted here?

Dear Jimbo,

Sincerely thank you for founding Misplaced Pages and greetings from a Unix sysadmin who wishes he could have a similarly great idea!

You may want nothing to do with the following controversy; I'll understand if you don't respond.

One of your editors, William M. Connolley, has his own Misplaced Pages biography, and in that page you are referenced as being partial in an arbitration dispute. Upon investigation I find that a journalist has written (Stacy Schiff, July 31, 2006, New Yorker; with my emphasis added),

For all its protocol, Misplaced Pages’s bureaucracy doesn’t necessarily favor truth. In March, 2005, William Connolley was briefly a victim of an edit war over the entry on global warming, to which he had contributed. After a particularly nasty confrontation with a skeptic, who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect, the case went into arbitration. “User William M. Connolley strongly pushes his POV with systematic removal of any POV which does not match his own,” his accuser charged in a written deposition. “His views on climate science are singular and narrow.” A decision from the arbitration committee was three months in coming, after which Connolley was placed on a humiliating one-revert-a-day parole. The punishment was later revoked, and Connolley is now an admin, with two thousand pages on his watchlist—a feature that enables users to compile a list of entries and to be notified when changes are made to them. He says that Misplaced Pages’s entry on global warming may be the best page on the subject anywhere on the Web. Nevertheless, Wales admits that in this case the system failed. It can still seem as though the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins.

When I read this page, it suggests to me that you remained impartial in the arbitration dispute, and were commenting here only on systemic failure rather than the individuals involved in the arbitration dispute. (The article, OTOH, has you weighing in to support William.) It is also not absolutely clear to me, from this journalist's wording, who it is who thinks the Misplaced Pages entry on global warming is the best page anywhere on the web (is that you, or William?).

For the record, yes, I am left-leaning skeptic of climate change theories, although I do think that the global warming article itself is quite fair.

NOTE: Please understand I have no wish to edit William's biography: I just want to understand the views of its founder on this controversial subject. My primary reason for joining Misplaced Pages is to help improve and defend the biographies of living climate change skeptics, who do not always seem to be treated fairly. So you may be assured that the last thing I want to do is start adding negative material into the biographies of climate change advocates.

Many thanks, Alex Harvey (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That particular article is full of misleading claims and I complained bitterly to them after it was published. I would not personally regard it as a reliable source for anything. In terms of longer profile pieces, it is one of the most flawed out there. I do not have any problem with that ArbCom decision, but I do consider it unfortunate that things ever had to get to the point that ArbCom was involved - I feel the same way about virtually all ArbCom cases. Every ArbCom case is in some sense a failure - a failure to work together appropriately, a failure to assume good faith, a failure to achieve consensus, and/or other similar failures. As you put it, these are in fact a "systemic" failures in a sense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My favorite part of that article (by a Pulitzer winner, no less!):

One regular on the site is a user known as Essjay, who holds a Ph.D. in theology and a degree in canon law and has written or contributed to sixteen thousand entries. A tenured professor of religion at a private university, Essjay made his first edit in February, 2005. Initially, he contributed to articles in his field—on the penitential rite, transubstantiation, the papal tiara. Soon he was spending fourteen hours a day on the site, though he was careful to keep his online life a secret from his colleagues and friends.

Good times, good times. It taught me not to believe implicitly things that are claimed by people who refuse to back up with their real name. Remember there was going to be a big "credential verification" program after that fiasco? That went the way of the dodo bird, I guess. -- Thekohser 16:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's sloppy journalism at best. Don't they know that Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source? It scares me when I hear stories about journalists actually using Misplaced Pages as a search tool. At best, they can look at our article and then check our sources to see a) if the source is reliable and b) if the source supports the claim. This weekend, there was at edit war going on at List of common misconceptions where the exact same source is being used for two opposite positions. Good times! 204.2.252.254 (talk) 17:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the idea that a putative, presumabely busy "tenured professor at a private university" was logged in on Wiki 14 hours-a-day, for interminable months on end, have provided a clue? ↜Just M E here , now 18:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, don't knock it, that article has thousands of viewers, have a look ], over 20,000 a couple of days ago? Are the article traffic stats accurate? Off2riorob (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it was featured on "Did you know...?" ↜Just M E here , now 18:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My First Article

Hello Mr Wales. Im Coldplay Expert (lucky me its not my real name!) anyway as the name seggests, I like the English musical group Coldplay. With this in mind I decided to make an article on the unreleased Coldplay songs. (I based it off of Unreleased Pink Floyd). This is what my efforts accumulated into. List of unreleased Coldplay songs. The only problem is that now it is nominated to be deleated because it is not notable or has enough indipendent reliable resourses. Not only that but people think that im not neutral on any of my edits because of my wiki name. What should I do and what advice would you give me for keeping my article on wikipeda. (I realy belive that this article is a usefull adition to the Coldplay article in existance.) In the end, if nothing can be done then i will take it back and leave it on my userpage to be worked on.--Coldplay Expert (talk) 23:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

With the best will in the world I doubt Jimbo would get that involved in a decision at this level, although I'll leave it to him to decide. Meanwhile, there is only a proposal to delete your article, which you seem adequately equipped to defend. All I will say here is that whereas Unreleased Pink Floyd appears to be adequately sourced in relation to a band that has been around, and influential, for over 40 years, the same arguments may not apply to Coldplay. You would be better arguing your case at the deletion proposal, in my view. I don't want to stifle your enthusiasm, but the hurdle you have to cross is whether these unreleased tracks are objectively notable Rodhullandemu 23:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Make a copy and keep it in your user space in case its deleted, and defend it on the deletion discussion page and take any advice to improve it from the discussion. You can work on it while discussion is going on, but if its deleted take the advice and move on. Off2riorob (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)