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Fix the Bias

Van Jones said he was a "communist"; it is part of his life, it should be on his page! Somebody with a modicum of social responsibility for the sake of accuracy should re-add this reference to the first mention of his labeling himself a "communist":

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/the_new_face_of_environmentalism/Content?oid=290098&showFullText=true

(Has the East Bay Express been deemed "not a credible publication"?

Respectful observation: This is what happens when when people with inherent bias are allowed to moderate and control political exposition. NB: I was a teacher. Silence the dissenters (read as: "Quiet class!")

Just a little superscript and you'll likely end the dabate. - JayWhitney (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Van Jones is and has been for the last 17 years a self-avowed communist even naming his four year old son after a guerilla fighter. He is also a CZAR not a special advisor but a CZAR unfortunately this FisherQueen that has protected his page from the truth being told works for him or for the White House. Hey FisherQueen! If you have the guts to read these messages why don't you unprotect your master's wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.1.132.103 (talk) 09:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I seem to have permission to edit this page, so in the spirit of my evangelical-esque desire that Misplaced Pages remain a bastion of fact (I use it a lot for medicine, where there is actual peer review to fall back upon), I've made some changes that hopefully offer a step towards resolving this brouhaha.

I've added a "Controversy" section and moved anything that is not said by Van Jones himself or are statements or opinions of others such as Glenn Beck, Eva Paterson, and other bloggers there. The central debate/controversy seems to be whether or not Mr. Jones is still a communist. It's a bunch of he-said/she-said of opinion and things that cannot be corroborated. History seems clear and documented, it's the present that is a matter of controversy. Writing in Misplaced Pages does not create fact nor does it change history. Misplaced Pages reflects fact and cites history.

I pre-justify the Controversy section as the existence of the controversy is fact, and must be germane given the attention it gets and given the debate about edits to this page.

Plus, consider that the fame and notoriety from this controversy is why many would visit this Wiki page and people are probably at least as interested in the controversy as they are in Van Jones himself. - JayWhitney (talk) 14:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is blatantly POV and an embarrassment to wikipedia. The absence of detail of this man's radical communist views, given his closeness to the president, is incredible. I dont have time to edit war with committed leftists, but I hope others will note the blatant sanitization of the entire article and the absence of documentation of who this man really is. Hadrianheugh (talk) 21:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a biographical article in an encyclopedia, not an ideological essay that explains what is important because of someone's "closeness to the president" or any other political considerations. It is supposed to neutrally summarize the facts about the subject as they are presented in reliable sources. The article already mentions that he became a communist, that he worked with an avowedly Marxist organization, etc. But these are not the only things that he has done, and the article reflects that. Just because these things are repeated a million times in blogs does not mean they should take up the majority of the article. If you have facts from reliable sources (not original research based on interpreting quotes) that you believe are missing from the article, please name the specific facts and supply the sources. Drive-by carping does not help to improve anything. --RL0919 (talk) 21:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Cool bias

Is there any way we can make him look better than he is? Can we loosen up standards a little or something so that Beck won't win? Remember, it's the Party first, everything else after.

I really think we should consider removing anything viewed as even remotely negative. This man will obviously change our lives for the better by taking control of most everything we do, so we should do whatever we can to get him his power.

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.145.196.208 (talk) 21:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I know this is sarcasm, but may I simplify for you? It's a shame when "truth" becomes the "selective truth" rather than the time-honored, court-demanded "whole truth". Anything less is just Goebbels-esque propaganda. - JayWhitney (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

Given Glenn Beck's coverage of Van Jones, I think this page should be semi-protected. After all, Beck's Misplaced Pages page is semi-protected.

Reliefappearance (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

How funny that each day as Mr. Van Jones gets more coverage and people find out more radical things about him, the content of this source of information is changed and revised to make him look less frightening. Too bad that the people who are doing this forgot to do it before the word got out and everyone looked up and printed the facts about Mr. Van Jones. Obama should have thought about this before he named him the Green Jobs Czar, before he designed the now famous and useless "stimulus" package that has not stimulated anything other than the pockets of the unions, ACORN, the Apollo Project, the Tides Foundation, Social Justice movements and who knows how many other radical left and communist organizations that are trying to take over our country.

Mr. Van Jones' past is not that easy to erase. Never thought I would see the day when an ex-convict who would not be allowed to hold a low level job at any city or county due to the fact that he would have failed the background check that is required, would get to visit the White House on a regular basis and hold the job of counselor to the President on issues related to the environment, jobs, and the economy. It is a very sad day in America when peace-loving Americans are told they are acting "un-American" only because they are voicing opinions related to freedom of choice about a health plan that is being pushed on them, freedom of speech and questioning if their representatives in Congress are reading the bill. Now people surrounding the President of the United States are radicals, nationalists, communists, and extremists and it is all good, all considered business as usual.

Oh, but let's not forget that terrorists have rights. Mr. Van Jones has been a big advocate of prisoners' rights in the past. I wonder if he had anything to do with giving terrorists the right to remain silent, get an attorney, and making sure the CIA no longer is allowed to question them. Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves as they see what is happening in America today. It will not be long before the Constitution is revised to fit the agenda of Mr. Van Jones and our other new leaders.

Mr. Van Jones' "Color of Change" organization has been trying to silence the opposition by collecting signatures to get advertisers to stop promoting their products on the Glenn Beck program. He may be the force behind the decision to have a new Diversity Czar who will make sure to forever quiet the voices of those who do not agree. Be prepared to see radical changes in the airways, on the internet and any other mass media outlets.

Communism is alive and well in America! Our nation is being "Fundamentally Transformed" just as Obama promised. We will be told how to think, what to eat, how many kids we can have and how we should raise them, how much we should weight, what type of cars we should drive and how old we should be when it is time to die with dignity before we end up costing the government too much money. Smoking, drinking and having fun will be a thing of the past.

Radical changes from radical leaders like Mr. Van Jones are now taking place in America. September 11th has now been declared and signed into law by our president as "A day of Service"(?). What happened to remembering those who died painfully and innocently on that awful day as they went to work? Why is no one in NY complaining about this? Are they all blind or do they no longer care? Did our President think of consulting the families of those who died that day? Why is no one asking those questions? No, this is definitely a new era, an era of "responsibility"; isn't this what our President told us on his Inaugural speech? In the minds of the new Democrat Party, Americans are not sophisticated enough to know how to run their own lives so they need to be told. How is that CHANGE working for you?

] (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 75.74.249.161 (talk) 03:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions for improving the article?

Help:Misplaced Pages:_The_Missing_Manual/Collaborating_with_Other_Editors/Communicating_with_Your_Fellow_Editors

Reliefappearance (talk) 19:19, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok folks lets get this on the level this man is a self proclaimed communist. Therefore it needs to be a major part of this mans page. I feel that something like that needs to been known by everyone. How would you feel if a guy was a confirmed pedophile and later decided to change his ways are you going to let him run your kids daycare? Its the same thing when a communist is allowed to become part of our republic we stand to lose more than anyone can imagine.

Here is a quote from the communist himself, “I met all these young radical people of color — I mean really radical, communists and anarchists. And it was, like, ‘This is what I need to be a part of.’” Although he already had a plane ticket, he decided to stay in San Francisco. “I spent the next ten years of my life working with a lot of those people I met in jail, trying to be a revolutionary.” In the months that followed, he let go of any lingering thoughts that he might fit in with the status quo. “I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th, and then the verdicts came down on April 29th,” he said. “By August, I was a communist.”

Do you have any suggestions for improving the article?

Help:Misplaced Pages:_The_Missing_Manual/Collaborating_with_Other_Editors/Communicating_with_Your_Fellow_Editors

Reliefappearance (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Add category communist

This man is a self-described communist who has devoted much of his life to marxist-leninism. He belongs in the category American communists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.85.63 (talk) 05:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

What's the source? Be bold and add it if you have a source. 24.199.34.242 (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's a source, the East Bay Express for one:

Jones told the East Bay Express in 2005:

"I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th , and then the verdicts came down on April 29th. By August, I was a communist. (...)"

"I met all these young radical people of color – I mean really radical: communists and anarchists. And it was, like, 'This is what I need to be a part of.' I spent the next ten years of my life working with a lot of those people I met in jail, trying to be a revolutionary."

But i'm sure this will be scrubbed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.108.228 (talk) 20:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

He was once a college student, so should he be categorized as a former college student? The political evolution section explains the context of the communist references and clearly explains that he's a proponent of market based solutions.

Gfanslow (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It's oxymoronic to present "as fact" an avowed communist who favors market solutions. Market solutions fall within the realm of capitalism. He can't have it both ways...it's clearly codespeak. Thoughtthinker (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

This man is very controversial and has made several offensive public statements. The Misplaced Pages page sounds as though Mr. Jones edited it himself. I wish someone more familiar with Misplaced Pages than myself would give a more complete picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.171.34.222 (talk) 23:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above, its nice that a commie nutjob gets appointed to such a high ranking position, I know ill sleep better at night. I also enjoyed all of his 'many awards' all in 2008? lmfao —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.255.18.151 (talk) 10:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

What's the source? Be bold and add it if you have a source. 24.199.34.242 (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems like user User:Hidenothing:Hidenothing is whitewashing this page pretty often. Can anything be done about this? 98.221.253.140 (talk) 20:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow, must be nice to be an admitted communist and somehow get a job working for the United States government. Looks like Messiah Obama's time with Racist Reverand Wright and government-hater William Ayers has carried over into his Presidency. What a sick world we are living in!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.202.229 (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It's clear that the people adding this are adding it for the purposes of promoting a non-neutral point of view. Is there a way of phrasing this information that communicates what is important about this person without telling readers what to think about him? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I've given in a try. The paragraph didn't fit well in the introduction- I moved the information about his young activism to the section about his youth. The fact that he holds a White House position is already the subject of a pargraph in the article, but this paragraph didn't add any new information from reliable sources; the section on "Color of Change" would be an interesting new paragraph, but no reliable sources were cited that I could use to create such a paragraph. New users- Misplaced Pages is only for communicating verifiable facts, and not for drawing conclusions or making judgements; see WP:NPOV for more information on that. Obviously there's still plenty of room for improvement of this article as more sources write about Jones.-FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the category- the article cited says that he was in a socialist organization in his youth, but it seems to imply that he is no longer part of that organization. Can we get a source verifying that he still identifies himself as a socialist or a communist, or is a member of the Socialist or Communist Party? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's oxymoronic to present "as fact" an avowed communist who favors market solutions. Market solutions fall within the realm of capitalism. He can't have it both ways...it's clearly codespeak. Thoughtthinker (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

"Color of Change"

Shouldn't this article at least mention the group "Color of Change?" He seems to be deeply associated with it. Here is the article I found about this.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33134

And plus, he is mentioned in the wiki article for Color of Change.

Jessemckay (talk) 22:40-22:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

This speaks to objectivity. "Wow, must be nice to be an admitted communist and somehow get a job working for the United States government. Looks like Messiah Obama's time with Racist Reverend Wright and government-hater William Ayers has carried over into his Presidency. What a sick world we are living in!!!!" I had to edit "Reverend" because it was misspelled. This was a give away. Most conservatives can't spell "Obama." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.12.254.179 (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

And your objectivity is worthy of everyone's envy isn't it. Nice job proving you're an idiot too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.177.204.222 (talk) 15:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Removals of Carefully Cited Information

Attempts to add factual, relevant -- unfortunately controversial -- information about Jones was removed by "FisherQueen" alleging lack of documentation. The added language has been thoroughly cited, and there are many more confirmatory citations easily found on Web Search Engines. Attempts to suppress this information are the kind of censorship I experienced in communist countries and is not appropriate to the United States of America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dewen12 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to Obamaland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.206.168 (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where "Obamaland" is, but the detailed explanation of every sentence of the paragraph in question is at User talk:Dewen12. I'm afraid most of it is simply against Misplaced Pages's rules, so it won't be able to stay in this article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Dewen12, discussing this content)

By his own account and international reporting, Jones evolved as a "roudy nationalist" collaborating as an avowed Communist with radical Marxists and Maoists.

• The article says that he was part of a socialist organization which read the work of Marx and Lenin in his youth. I added that to the section on his youth, with the source you cited. The word 'radical' is an emotionally weighted word, not neutral. 'Marxists and Maoists' doesn't seem to accurately paraphrase what that section of the article says.

Appointed as a so-called "green czar" among the officials President Obama has installed in his government avoiding advice and consent of the Senate ,

• The article already discusses his White House position. "So-called" is a word which makes a value judgement, not neutral. 'Avoiding advice and consent of the Senate' is your own analysis, not verifiable fact. The source you cite is a blog, and so not usable.

Jones was reported in August 2009 when a Black activist organization he founded called "Color of Change" , began pressuring companies to stop advertising with the popular Glenn Beck cable TV show.

• This is interesting, and might be a useful addition to the article. But your only cited source is WorldNetDaily, which is not a reliable source, both because it has a strong bias against the subject, and also because it publishes incorrect or inaccurate information too often for Misplaced Pages to be able to use it as verification of facts. I'd be interested in adding a paragraph about this if it has been discussed in a more reliable source.

   I went to the color of change website and found this petition on their home page.  http://colorofchange.org/  I don't know if this would be considered a reliable source or not, but I can't imagine a more reliable source than the very group being accused.  I hope this will allow at least this portion of the information aforementioned to be added to his wiki.  Thank you.--Butch864 (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

This occurred after Beck reported Jone's involvement in the "Apollo Alliance," where Beck cited Jones as a key architect of so-called "stimulus" and "cap and trade" legislation -- both highly controversial programs reported by the Congressional Budget as likely sources of deficits and job loss.

• There are no independent sources here. You've linked to the congressional budget, but not to the coverage of this matter in independent sources. Again you use the non-neutral phrase "so-called."

Irrespective of partisan views on these issues, concerns now arise that suppression of this reporting (including removal of carefully cited information from Misplaced Pages due to alleged lack of documentation), has a chilling effect on freedom of the press and ultimately representative government.

• This entire sentence is your personal analysis, and does not contain any verifiable facts. It is, in its entirety, a violation of WP:NPOV.

1. http://www.truthout.org/article/eliza-strickland-the-new-face-environmentalism
2. http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2009/04/obama-file-72-obama-appoints-former.html
3. http://colorofchange.org/about.html
4. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106805
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80zzW6Osyhs
6. http://apolloalliance.org/what%E2%80%99s-new/apollo-board-member-van-jones-accepts-white-house-post/
7. http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/collections.cfm?collect=12
8. http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=2876

In addition to these problems, you've dropped the paragraph into the middle of the introduction in a way that interferes with the readability of the article- an article needs to be organized in a way that would make sense to a reader from beginning to end. I hope this helps you understand why this paragraph simply won't work in the way you have written it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I am 100% confident that this paragraph is a violation of WP:NPOV, for the reasons I've discussed here, in the edit summaries, and at User talk:Dewen12. Rather than edit-war over it, which is against the rules, I've asked for a third opinion at Misplaced Pages:Third opinion. I hope that a few more voices will be helpful in weighing in on whether or not Misplaced Pages's policies would allow this paragraph to continue in the article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I hear clearly FisherQueen's argument that the wikipedia article should remain NPOV and thus the POV additions would be best to be left out. rkmlai (talk) 18:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(from WP:3O, though there are now three editors discussing here) The proposed addition also would require better sourcing, doubly so since this article treats a living person. A reader leaving this article should have basically the same impression and know most of the same information as if they had consumed the relevant articles in the New York Times, BBC, and similar news sources noted for their fact-checking and reliability. Points that are never treated by that caliber of source probably do not belong in the article. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow, what an awful paragraph. I tried to rewrite it, but found that the sourcing was so incredibly poor and the wording was so emotive and slanted as to warrant a complete do-over. There is useful content there (he was appointed a "green czar" and he got into a conflict with Glen Beck) but better sources are absolutely required. No blogs, no commentary (except when citing directly attributed NOTABLE opinions -- for example that of Glen Beck), and more mainstream sources are required. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The article already mentions the Special Advisor position (though not the informal "green czar" appellation). He didn't "get into a conflict with Glenn Beck" - that was Color of Change, an organisation he founded and left several years before the Beck saga. Rd232 18:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of Mr. Joens time in prison? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jspugh (talk • contribs) 00:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you point to a specific reliable source that discusses that in enough detail to use? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Jones never went to prison. That's why it isn't in the article. Falcon8765 (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

former black nationalist and communist

I'm new to Wiki editing but I noticed there's some fishy stuff going on here. From 1992 to around 2004, Jones was a known activist, specifically a black nationalist. He was a member of the radical group S.T.O.R.M. in San Francisco. He was active and briefly arrested during the King protests in '92, and "became a communist" after his experience being held in city jail. I didn't even mention this because he was held for just 4 hours. This information is fact, available everywhere. It's a significant part of Jones professional development so it bears mentioning "above the fold" yet a user, Hidenothing, has deleted my edits and claimed he/she "Removed inaccurate information." Facts are facts, Hidenothing. What are you afraid of? 68.110.203.144 (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

68.110.203.144 has made 3 edits, 2 to the main and one here. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

so? is there a problem with that?RodentofDeath (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• Leftwingers tend to be people who don't have jobs and have nothing better to do than sit around editing Misplaced Pages all day between bong hits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.216.15.11 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

There, you see, the facts. And if you want more proof? 150.216.15.11, unlike leftwingers, is too busy even to sign his post, or have made more than eight edits since March 2008.

Ad hominem? I would say not, and am a good man and will not do nothing. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Let's refrain from personal attacks and discuss this civilly. Random blogs aren't reliable sources, but here is a source where Van Jones discusses the whole brouhaha during the Rodney King protests: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/15-years-ago-rodney-king-_b_48361.html This should be sourced instead per WP:SELFPUB.--The lorax (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

the east bay express is a reliable source. the huffington post is biased and is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.90.26 (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• The Huffington Post link comes from an article that Van Jones himself wrote. WP:SELFPUB sources tend to be considered more reliable than alternative news weeklies.--The lorax (talk) 17:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Replacing a source because of a controversy over which one is preferred is one thing; removing the entire section because of it is quite another, lorax. Restored. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:AGF, shouldn't we be conscious that this is a pretty contentious claim that is being singled out; we should include as much information to not make this seem taken out of context. I think we can put this information into the Early Activism section and remove Political Evolution all together. The Awards section is a bit trivial as well and should be weaved into prose somehow.--The lorax (talk) 03:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see some documentation that Van Jones has denied his past communist professions, as stated in the current page. As it reads now, it seems way too syrupy, and glosses over relevant facts. Way too many external links are directed to his own web sites, hardly a source of unbiased facts, and I also agree that Huffington is not credible either on this or any topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.190.232 (talk) 04:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I too would like to see a cited reliable source to quote Mr. Jones that he refutes communist activities. I would also agree that Huffington post blogs or any blogs are NOT reliable sources per WP:RS and should be removed. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The Huffington Post is a controversial source -- I don't think there is a strong consensus one way or the other as to the reliability of its news articles. It's blog posts on the other hand, are not appropriate sources unless one of the standard exceptions (such as Jones writing about himself) applies. I just cut reference to a blog cited in response to the Beck criticisms. There are two other cites to The Huffington Post in the article. One is a blog post by Jones, which is allowed per WP:SELFPUB. The other is a news article about a relatively non-controversial topic, which seems to be well documented (including interview quotes from Jones himself), so I think that is OK to keep. --RL0919 (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

SOMETHING FISHY GOING ON

I see all the damning information I read yesterday has been removed. == —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.82.28 (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

One contribution. There is indeed something fishy going on, even if it is only a sudden spate of IPs. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

STORM’S embrace with Marxism, inspiration from Mao Tse-tung

I'm stunned that neither this article nor the one on STORM mentions the organizations' goal of creating a Marxist-Leninist-Socialist "utopia". The STORM article has a link to one of , which has the following quote:

STORM’S Approach to Marxism
STORM was never formally a “Marxist-Leninist” organization, and we never had a systematic Marxist theoretical framework. But we did have a political commitment to the fundamental ideas of Marxism-Leninism. We upheld the Marxist critique of capitalist exploitation. We agreed with Lenin’s analysis of the state and the party. And we found inspiration and guidance in the insurgent revolutionary strategies developed by Third World revolutionaries like Mao Tse-tung and Amilcar Cabral.

--Tjdadis (talk) 19:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, this article is about Van Jones, not about STORM. If you think there should be an article about STORM, and have better sources than the blog you cite here, go for it, and have fun writing it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

As to the "blog", the link was to a PDF of a STORM publication, the same link that this wikipedia references in its current STORM article. So I dont see any dispute that the PDF is genuine copy of STORM's own publication as a "self-assessment" and history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjdadis (talk • contribs) 00:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

There's already a discussion of STORM in this article, and mention of Jones' being a communist. But that section begs the question of Jones' being inspired by Marx, Lenin and Mao. It begs that Jones' founded STORM and therefore was a leader in its espousal of policies that lead the the death and enslavement of up to a billion people continuously during a 70 year history. A philosophy that this country fought for nearly 50 years.

Yet, this man has government clearance to work in the White House and reports directly to the President. --Tjdadis (talk) 00:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I find it frightening that pages related to members of the Obama administration aren't editable. I've lost a lot of faith in Misplaced Pages today. Controversy is part of life and IS a fact. So, we're not allowing facts because they're controversial??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GAP123 (talk • contribs) 01:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You can edit the articles if you aren't an IP address and have a username. Every article related to the Obama administration is plagued with vandalism. Falcon8765 (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I haven't heard any suggestions for what the article is missing.--The lorax (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Because you haven't been listening... OH SNAP! Ninja337 (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Why would anyone waste time editing knowing one of you will delete it. I agree with sinebot. I've lost a lot of faith in Misplaced Pages. Someone needs to start a new one that is open and free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.15.181 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate information on Van Jones

Here is the inaccurate sentence on Misplaced Pages about Van Jones

"Jones started his career as a staunch critic of capitalism; his outrage over the Rodney King verdict radicalized him to the point where he declared himself a communist (he has since renounced these views) and actively began protesting police brutality."

No where is Van Jones directly or indirectly quoted as saying he has renounced communism. The author states, "Van Jones renounced his rowdy black nationalism on the way toward becoming an influential leader of the new progressive politics." But that sentence is only her opinion (my 30 years in journalism and public relations knows the difference between an opinion and an indirect or direct quote).

And I'm not convinced that a reporter with the East Bay News is a credible "independent" source about this controversial person.

The parenthesis (he has since renounced these views) needs to be removed from the Misplaced Pages site until direct evidence of that claim can be footnoted/sourced from an independent source or from Van Jones himself in a public statement.

Usmcpao (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)usmcpao

Agree. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Eva Paterson, Jones's former boss, backs up what is presently written:

::The lorax (talk) 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a blog of personal opinion and not a reliable source per WP:RS. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The Huffington Post, although biased, is a reasonably reliable source for this case. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "(he has since renounced these views)" does not need to be there, let the facts that appear later in the section speak for themselves -- he later wrote a book that some interpret as a renunciation however he never explicitly said "I am not a communist anymore". -- Dougie WII (talk) 21:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Will we ever hear the truth?

I wonder if Obama will ever stand in defense of this 'friend", "adviser" or whatever Jones is calling himself these days. But he sure isn't calling him self in anything protesting against being a communist! Rep. Dianne Watson must ALSO be one as well... let's keep the information that we KNOW on the front page in here and stop molding people into what you want instead of what is real. MitchinaMitchina (talk) 21:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

His writings and the policies he advocates in no way indicates that he is a Communist as of the present. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Many of us held positions as college students that we don't hold as adults. I certainly did. If everyone who was a communist in college were still a communist, then the Communist Party would have stood a good chance of winning the last election. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting standard. Is it Misplaced Pages policy? If so, please apply your reasoning to Bob McDonnell where his Boston University thesis is cited critically. Either include the information brought up into this article, or apply your "it was a position he held a long time ago" standard to similar articles. If you refuse to do this, then we have a problem. No, sorry, you can't ignore the request, you're an administrator. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The article currently mentions the (reliably sourced) fact that Jones became a communist in the early 1990s, and it also mentions Glenn Beck's criticism suggesting that he is still a communist. What the article does not contain is any forthright claim of fact saying that he is still a communist, because there is apparently no reliable source to verify such a statement. If you have a reliable source to verify that, please bring it forward and the article can be updated accordingly. Bear in mind that because this is a biography of a living person, controversial claims must be strongly sourced, to avoid exposing Misplaced Pages and its editors to libel claims. --RL0919 (talk) 22:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV are your own words, yet Bob McDonnell still references a primary source, that being a student thesis, and quotes it directly: '"At page 20 of the thesis, he wrote, "man’s basic nature is inclined towards evil, and when the exercise of liberty takes the shape of pornography, drug abuse, or homosexuality, the government must restrain, punish, and deter."' This quotation is not found in the Washington Post article being referenced, rather, it is taken from the primary source itself. There is a clear double standard being employed. If not, please explain how primary sourcing can be applied there, but not here. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 05:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I have not edited on or even read the article about Bob McDonnell, so I can't speak to what might be going on there. You might have noticed that this is a volunteer operation, where editors and administrators work on items that they choose. There is no global responsibility for any individual editor or administrator to personally fix every problem that might exist on articles that they are not working on. If you think something inappropriate is in that article, I suggest you take it up at Talk:Bob McDonnell (if you haven't already), or simply fix the problem yourself. --RL0919 (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Van Jones

This bio left out alot of important subject matter such as he has been arrested and spent 8 years in jail for the Rodney King arrest. Looks like someone is telling you what to say 75.87.93.103 (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Because that is patently false; there would be a bunch more wharrgarbl over his appointment if that were the case. For clarification, he was arrested along with hundreds of others, however all charges were dropped.Falcon8765 (talk) 22:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

See ; lots of rumors and such running around, that is most likely the truth. Falcon8765 (talk) 22:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A few issues

Having looked over this article a couple of times now, and having fixed some "easy" issues, there are a few more significant items that I wanted to bring up here. In descending order of importance (as I see it):

• Plagiarism - There are some passages in the article that have been lifted word-for-word from sources, not as quotes but as straight text. This is not acceptable and the passages need to be rewritten. In particular, the "Early life" section has verbatim passages from the Kolbert article, and the "Early activism" subsection is only slightly paraphrased from one of Jones's own blog posts. There may be other cases that I haven't found. Update: The two particular sections mentioned have been rewritten. Hopefully there are no others with this problem.
• POV - Some of the attempts to insert criticism of Jones into the article have been ham-handed and inappropriate, but the complaint of bias in the article has some foundation. For example, the high-profile criticism of Jones by Glenn Beck goes completely unmentioned, even though a refutation of it is cited as a source. That's pretty clearly a one-sided approach. The fact of Beck's criticisms should be mentioned, preferably cited from a neutral news source. There have been at least a couple of discussions of this in the LA Times "Show Tracker" blog that could be cited, and perhaps some other sources that aren't anti-Jones opinion pieces. Update: Beck's criticisms are now mentioned with appropriate sources. There may still be other POV issues.
• Full name - Per MOS:BIO, the lead ought to mention that "Van" is a nickname. The name of the article itself is fine, since he is best known as Van Jones, but a number of sources correctly mention that his given name is Anthony. Update: Given name added to lead.

I don't know that I will have time to fix all these myself, but they all need to be tackled, ideally before the semi-protection expires so that it doesn't have to be done while fighting vandals at the same time. --RL0919 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC) Updated above. --RL0919 (talk) 03:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I read this article and its so biased toward van jones its absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.242.155 (talk) 01:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The profile of Van Jones is is an excellent example of historical revisionism. Obviously this was written as an attempt to rewrite history and influence agenda. Lets get this corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.211.105 (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Political Evolution Edit

I replaced the description of STORM with the description from STORM's own document. The original description described STORM as a collective which "dreamed of a multiracial socialist utopia". That is exceptionally vague. I replaced that description with STORM's description of themselves from their document, "Reclaiming Revolution, History, Summation, and Lessons from the work of Standing Togethor to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM)".

There was already a ref link to the document. I reused the link, although there are problems with the link. This document is becoming difficult to access. I will wait to see if the current ref link will be repaired, if it is not then I have the document and can post it. Aseidave (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A repost of the document by a Misplaced Pages editor would probably both be a copyright violation and fail to qualify as a reliable source (since it would be hard to confirm the document wasn't tampered with). Neither would allow the source to be used as a citation in an article. A better bet would be to use a tool like the Internet Archive or WebCite. At the moment, the url currently used for that document has two archive copies in the Internet Archive, so those can be used if something happens to the original. --RL0919 (talk) 14:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The link to the .pdf file of the STORM document in this article is unreliable. I have found the same document in its entirety at Scribd.com. The link is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19223898/Reclaiming-Revolution-history-summation-lessons-from-the-work-of-STORM- I will update the ref tag to point to the scribd.com copy of the document. --AStanhope (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that's begging for the link to be removed later as unreliable/copyvio. The use of Internet Archive and WebCite has the support of the Misplaced Pages community. As far as I know there is no such support for the use of Scribd. I'll put in a {{cite web}} template with the Internet Archive link included in the 'archiveurl' field. That will give readers access to both the original url (when it works) and the archive (when it doesn't). --RL0919 (talk) 14:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

East Bay Express's response to Glenn Beck

Shouldn't we include East Bay Express's response to Glenn Beck? He's citing their profile, so it would seem fair to include their response to how he's interpreting it?--The lorax (talk) 17:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, why is this page so focused on Glenn Beck? Yes he talks about all this stuff on his show, howevewr I do believe this was Van Jones Misplaced Pages page, not Glenn's. Lets put Glenn's actions and words on GLENN'S wikipedia page and stick to Jones on this one. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.213.230 (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Beck is only mentioned in a few sentences, so I'm not sure what makes you believe the article is focused on him. Because Beck is a prominent and respected commentator, his criticisms of Jones have been widely circulated and have achieved attention from other news outlets. Therefore it is highly appropriate that they be mentioned here. That doesn't make the article about him. --RL0919 (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that should be included as that is not a response from the paper, as much as it is a personal opinion in their BLOG section and not the news section of their paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.83.28.130 (talk) 21:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this doesn't belong, for a few reasons: 1) It is a blogged response by a staff writer, and thus should not be presented as if it were a formal response by the paper; 2) It is a criticism of Beck's usage of sources rather than a commentary on Jones per se, and thus is more appropriately placed in the article on Beck (where it would probably not be considered noteworthy enough to include); and finally, 3) The very mention of Beck's source appears to be introduced solely for the purpose of poking a hole in his claims, creating a tit-for-tat presentation that gives undue weight to the response. --RL0919 (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Van Jones in Quotes

VAN JONES: All we do is take out the dirty power system, the dirty power generation in a system and just replace it with some clean stuff, put a solar panel on top of this system. We don't deal with how we are consuming water, we don't deal with how we're treating our other sister and other brothers' species, we don't deal with toxins, we don't deal with the way we treat each other, if that's not a part of this movement, let me tell you what you'll have. This is all you'll have. You'll have solar powered bulldozers, solar powered buzz saws, and biofuel bombers and we'll be fighting wars over lithium for the batteries instead of oil for the engines and we'll still have a dead planet. This movement is deeper than a solar panel, deeper than a solar panel. Don't stop there. Don't stop there. No, we're going to change the whole system.

VAN JONES: And our Native American sisters and brothers who were pushed and bullied and mistreated and shoved into all the land we didn't want, where it was all hot and windy, well, guess what, renewable energy. Guess what, solar industry. Guess what, wind industry. They now own and control 80% of the renewable energy resources. No more broken treaties. No more broken treaties. Give them the wealth. Give them the wealth. Give them the dignity. Give them the respect that they deserve. No justice on stolen land. We owe them a debt.

VAN JONES: What about our immigrant sisters and brothers? What about our immigrant sisters and brothers? What about people who come here from all around the world, who we're willing to have out in the fields with poison being sprayed on them, poison being sprayed on them because we have the wrong agricultural system and then we're and we're willing to poison them and poison the Earth to put food on our table but we don't want to give them rights and we don't want to give them dignity and we don't want to give them respect?

VAN JONES: The white polluters and the white environmentals are essentially steering poison into the people of colored communities.

So basically we have a person that believes in the redistribution of wealth (hmn...wasn't this a controversial topic during the election season?) based on race, believes "we have the wrong agricultural system," and believes whites are deliberately poisoning (implied by actively "steering") minorities. This is controversial , and yet, it is not found anywhere in the article. Why is that? 68.84.6.98 (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Quit pushing your point of view about. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me? How is quoting someone pushing a POV? Are you saying these quotes aren't controversial or notable? If so, please explain and cut the false, ad hominem, bad faith, accusation. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

That's a quote, but I am not sure what you are proposing for the article. What is the fact about Jones that you want to add to the article, and what is the independent source that discusses that fact? Random quotes without context, selected to make a point or push a specific point of view, aren't that useful in an encyclopedia article . -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Quite true. I think this article could be easily managed if editors simply remembered that 1) original research is not allowed, especially not in articles about living people; and 2) only factual statements (including statements about the opinions of notable people) belong in the article, with reliable sources to back them up. That means: no straight statements that he is a communist without a reliable source to show it, no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV, and no giving undue weight to the opinions of non-notable people just because they "rebut" the opinions of others. Most of this talk page, and probably half the article's edits, would disappear if these rules had been consistently followed. --RL0919 (talk) 23:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Bingo. This also implies that germane facts that comply with this should not be deleted. At this very moment, and after a quick read, I for one think this page is very close to complete and NPOV (including fairly neutral statement-of-fact vocabulary) unless new germane information presents itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JayWhitney (talk • contribs) 00:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What is the fact about Jones that you want to add to the article, and what is the independent source that discusses that fact? Yes, I understand the process by which information is included into articles, and was not expecting any direct quotations to be inserted into this one, nor do I expect any editorializing (despite the fairly obvious nature of the quotations) - I'm merely preempting the deflection that will no doubt occur when these quotes are referenced in a credible, verifiable source. Expect it to happen. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 05:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

To be fair the article should point out that Van Jones is a self admitted communist

Van Jones has admitted that he is a communist and is for radical changes in the US government —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.248.43 (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

His declaration that he became a communist in the early 1990s is included in the Early activism section, with citation to an article with a published quote from him on the matter. If there is some other "admission" in a reliable source that you believe should be included, please specify the source so it can be reviewed. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

"he declared himself a communist and actively began protesting police brutality"

These two concepts have nothing to do with each other. The most police brutality happened under Stalin a pillar of modern communism. These two items are mentioned together as part of a deliberate advertising campaign to make it sound acceptable that Jones, an advisor to the president, said he was Communist. However any neutral information source that doesn't want to be guilty of bias would not have such nonsensical associations such as associating communism with anti-police brutality.myclob (talk) 01:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The reference indicates that it wasn't Stalin that influenced Jones to begin protesting police brutality, but the Rodney King verdict. I didn't see anything about Stalin in the source. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Reviewing the sources used for the paragraph, it is clear that they say Jones did both things. It's not clear that they ought to be joined in one sentence. Based on the Strickland article, it seems that he became a communist first, then started protesting police brutality slightly later, when he was with STORM. So they should probably be separated in the article's narrative. (Speaking of inappropriate joining, it would be helpful if editors raising concerns about specific passages in the article would not join them with inflammatory remarks.) --RL0919 (talk) 01:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The section had plagiarism issues due to use of very close paraphrasing from a source, plus there was some seemingly irrelevant material talking about another person who Jones worked with at STORM. So I re-wrote the section to address all of the above. --RL0919 (talk) 02:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is a quote from an interview he did as the head of the Ella Baker Center

VAN JONES: "The white polluters and the white environmentals are essentially steering poison into the people of colored communities". ~March 2009

This is the most news worthy thing Van Jones has ever said, but do you think this article will ever show it? I give it a 0% chance... pointing this type of "un-helpful" information would not be "prudent" in this "political environment".myclob (talk) 01:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Please, don't add any more quotes to this talk page; they are not helpful. If you think there is a fact missing from the article, just state the fact you think is missing, and cite your source. There's nothing we can do with quotations; an encyclopedia article doesn't need very many of those. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Myclob, if you're pointing this out because you want to start a section about how Van Jones actively has spoken out against environmental racism, then by all means, go for it!--The lorax (talk) 02:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Myclob - Go for it. You have my support. That quote is absolutely verifiable. Also, please see my comment below re: Jones actually being a Red Green rather than an "eco-capitalist". The article may need to be re-worded to indicate that while Jones claims to be a Blue Green, his rhetoric and actual philosophy indicate otherwise. ObserverNY (talk) 11:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Do we need to semi-protect the talk page?

Based on the spate of vandalism in the past hour, and the general level of non-constructive edits from IP users, I'm starting to wonder if semi-protection needs to be applied to this Talk page in addition to the article. --RL0919 (talk) 04:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Normally I wouldn't support protection of a talk page, but that's really bad today. I'm going to put a very brief semiprotect on the talk page, just for a few hours. -11:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I semiprotected, but I also created an unprotected talk page, because I really hate to discourage new users who might be helpful. I'll keep an eye on the unprotected talk page and sweep it of vandalism from time to time... constructive edits can be moved here or just linked to. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Eco-Capitalism vs. Eco-Socialism/Blue Green vs. Red Green

This article describes Van Jones as an Eco-Capitalist. On the surface, it appears that the rhetoric produced by the groups founded by Jones subscribe to eco-capitalism in name only so that the American public will buy it, that philosophically, Jones is a Red Green. The video aired on Glenn Beck last night from March, 2009, clearly shows Jones wildly excited about "changing the system". http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=108441 I would be interested in other editors' take on this apparent discrepancy in the way the article is currently presented and Jones' actual philosophy. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 11:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I listened to the entire speech (there's a YouTube link in the WND article), and I'm not sure what specifically is the discrepancy. Since WND isn't likely to be accepted as a reliable source for interpreting the views of left-wing activists, can you explain what it is in the speech that you think is inconsistent with something stated in the encyclopedia article? It's entirely possible that his views are misleadingly described in the encyclopedia article, but just listening to the speech and reading the WND article didn't lead me to any particular conclusion about that. --RL0919 (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I will listen to the rest of Jones' rhetoric later, I got half way through to hear him compare "clean coal energy" to "unicorns pulling cars". I said, WAIT A MINUTE, didn't Obama campaign on "clean coal energy"? Oh yes, he did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GehK7Q_QxPc So who is lying? Is Jones' mocking his boss? ObserverNY (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Based on those comments, we should make sure that the Van Jones article doesn't erroneously describe him as a supporter of clean coal. Fortunately, at the moment there is no mention of clean coal in the article, so we're safe on that. As for any contrast between Jones's views and Obama's, that would appear to be original research, unless there is a reliable source drawing the comparison. --RL0919 (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't even watched the entire tape yet, but I'm surprised Beck's people didn't pick up on that. There are just so many lies and exposes the poor man can fit in in an hour! I'm pretty sure they've got someone watching the Misplaced Pages pages because Beck made an aside about it. Got that Beck people? CLEAN COAL ENERGY - the ultimate campaign lie. Van Jones thinks it's as plausible as unicorns. But you are right, at this point it is original research but extremely notable, if'n you ask me. ObserverNY (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Just a quick note - tonight Beck played the segment about Van Jones and Clean Coal Technology being as real as the tooth fairy and unicorns, but unfortunately he didn't tie it to BHO's campaign plug for Clean Coal Technology. I guess we'll just have to wait until a reputable media source ties the two together to add to the article. ObserverNY (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Paterson blog post material

I had previously cut a quote from Eva Paterson, which was recently restored by The lorax. The source is a blog post on The Huffington Post website. That site has been discussed a number of times on the reliable sources notice board. As far as I understand it, the consensus is that while its news articles might or might not be considered reliable sources, it's blog posts are no better than any other blog. And in general, blog posts don't qualify as reliable sources unless it is the subject posting about himself, or a post from an established expert on the subject. Paterson doesn't qualify for either exception, so I believe this material should be excluded per WP:RS. --RL0919 (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Paterson originally posted this on her organization's website. Would that qualify as a more reliable source?--The lorax (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2009

(UTC)

The lorax - Boy that source irks me. Beck said that Van Jones was "arrested and jailed" which is absolutely true, not that Jones served prison time. ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Imho, The Huffington Post does not qualify as a source due to WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV. ObserverNY (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

In response to the question about whether the posting on her own organization's website qualifies as a reliable source, I would say, no it is not sufficiently reliable to use in a BLP. There is no evidence that the organization provides any editorial vetting for the blog posts, and in particular Paterson is the organization president, so it's pretty close to WP:SELFPUB. That would be OK if she was writing about herself, but in this instance the subject is someone else. And frankly this article has enough controversy around it that we should skew towards being more cautious in our use of sources. --RL0919 (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, Glenn Beck also discussed this quote on his show. It seems reasonable to quote someone who was Jones's boss, who knew him personally back when he was younger.--The lorax (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind using it if the quote was characterized as being from a POV source. ObserverNY (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

If the quote has been repeated in a reliable news source, then we could potentially cite that rather than the blog posting. Nothing says that material initially from an "unreliable" (per WP guidelines) source can't be used if it is later repeated in a "reliable" source. Attributed, of course, to Paterson as the quoted party, just as we would for any other occasion where controversial material comes from a particular individual. --RL0919 (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Would Glenn Beck's show then count as a reliable source in order to cite Paterson's quote?--The lorax (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

He's on major tv and radio networks, so yes his shows qualify as reliable sources (bearing in mind that much of what he says is citeable only as opinion, not fact). Did he actually quote her? The link ObserverNY you gave only had a mention of her, not any quotes. Of course it doesn't have to be Beck, as there are numerous reliable news sources out there, if one can be found with the relevant material. Ideally, a more neutral, "just the facts" type source would be preferable over those that surround every fact with heavy layers of opinion. --RL0919 (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi RL0919 - Um, I didn't provide any link in this section, merely agreed that I would be ok with using a quote from Glenn Beck. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 16:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Sorry, it was The lorax that gave the link. His comment and yours were at the same indent level and I got confused. Now corrected above. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 16:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem! Thanks! ObserverNY (talk) 17:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Color of Change

It seems to me that instead of having Color of Change listed as a sort of afterthought under "other" that it should precede Green for All for both chronological and political development reasons. Also, since it is mentioned in the overview, I think it deserves a little more detail. Opinions? ObserverNY (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree. The "Social and environmental activism" section is a bit disjointed due to it being combined out of what was previously multiple sections. --RL0919 (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Cool - well, I have some stuff to do, but take a look at what I did. Please feel free to add to, comment, fix(?) anything I may have messed up. ObserverNY (talk) 16:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Stupid question - Has anyone ever looked into who the OTHER co-founder(s) of Color of Change is/are? ObserverNY (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Answering my own stupid question - this source says the co-founder is James Rucker. Is this guy noteworthy? A simple mention? If I had bothered to read all of the colorofchange page I would have seen this: Prior, James served as Director of Grassroots Mobilization for MoveOn.org Political Action and Moveon.org Civic Action and was instrumental in developing and executing on fundraising, technology, and campaign strategies.I think in the political scheme of things. MoveOn.org affiliations are worthy of mention. Let me know before I add that. ObserverNY (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Presumably it is appropriate to mention him. This isn't an article about Rucker or Color of Change, so information about any history he had outside of his association with Jones should be kept brief. It appears that he has his own article, so any extended details should go there. --RL0919 (talk) 17:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Excellent advice. Agreed. ObserverNY (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Controversies section

Why isn't there a controversies section for this guy? He's very outspoken and has been criticized routinely by very high-profile people. Here's just one of the controversies that should be mentioned:

The issue you link to is mentioned in the article. (Am I the only editor here who is tired of complaints about stuff supposedly being missing from the article, that come form people who apparently haven't bothered to read the article?) "Controversy" sections tend to segregate material in an artificial way that makes articles even more POV-oriented. If Jones was criticized for something he did or said, then that belongs in whatever section is most relevant to him doing or saying that thing. (Assuming, of course, that the criticism is documented in reliable sources, etc.) --RL0919 (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The most damaging stuff has just come out today. I used to scoff at the Right's notion that the environmental movement's real agenda has less to do with the environment and more to do with the far Left's war on capitalism. Jones lays it all out for the public to see. That he has a far more radical agenda than the one he espouses for mainstream public consumption (reparations for slavery, the dismantling of our economic system etc) is plain. Obama doesn't need this stuff right now. I predict the next entry will be: "Jones resigned his position with the Obama administration in Sept. of 2009..." Sean Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.45.187 (talk) 17:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If that happens, please allow me the honour of adding that fact. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

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