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Revision as of 21:55, 4 September 2009 editNarson (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers5,299 edits →Article Overhaul ← Previous edit		Revision as of 10:54, 5 September 2009 edit undo89.129.48.78 (talk) →Article Overhaul Next edit →
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	<unindent>Guys, I am failing to see the virtue of this debate. No-one is getting anything from it, so why continue? Lets all just walk away for a couple of days. <span style="font-famiy: verdana;"> --] ~ ] • </span> 21:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)		<unindent>Guys, I am failing to see the virtue of this debate. No-one is getting anything from it, so why continue? Lets all just walk away for a couple of days. <span style="font-famiy: verdana;"> --] ~ ] • </span> 21:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


			:Sorry, Narson, but if this debate is not conducting anywhere is because you don't want it. Stating that some population just ''left'' while other was ''forced to leave'' in quite similar situations is showing a double standard. I have exposed this case in the ] article and, incidentally, also here as this article uses the same wording. The change has been reverted several times, so the use of such loaded terms is intentional.
			:And Justin, perhaps you didn't write that particular sentence, but you edited the text at least 8 times to keep it. Regards.

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Article Overhaul

Before somebody arbitrarily decided to archive the discussion page (July 09 - Aug 09) we were discussing how this article needs a major revision and reassessment, if not complete overhaul. It is written in a completely pro-British and anti-Spanish style and thus violates the Misplaced Pages principle of neutrality: WP:NPOV. Some good editors have tried to improve it by proposing small changes and additions to the article in the recent months, even years. However, their contributions have been repeatedly rejected and obstructed by some editors with an obvious pro-British bias. They impose their one-sided point of view with dishonesty, cynicism and even sarcasm. They prevent the article from being neutral and balanced by shoving aside constructive opinions and contributions. The result is a biased article which only reflects the British point of view.

For example, the British arguments in the sovereignty dispute are clearly presented at the top of the article. But there is no mention of the other side's point of view. It reads: "The overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians strongly oppose this along with any proposal of shared sovereignty. The British government has stated that it is committed to respecting the Gibraltarians' wishes." But then no mention of the basis of the Spanish claims: 1) territorial integrity, 2) UN Resolutions mandating decolonization, or 3) the debate about the "transfer of sovereignty" under the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713, by which property of the territory was transferred (real estate) not sovereignty.

In the latter part of the article, there is no mention either of the UN Resolution against the Referendum of 1967, or of the dispute on territorial waters, the shifting of the border by Britain, or the ilegal trafficking. But then, irrelevant information like the "Jane’s Country Risk" study is rammed into the Main Page (it helps create a positive impression of the colony) when no other country or region article in Misplaced Pages has this on their main page. The whole thing is so blunt in its pro-British bias it is ridiculous. Complete, neutral, verifiable information should be presented in this article, not selective facts that fit people's political points of view. Important facts like the Non-Self Governing status of Gibraltar, or the basis for Spain's claims should be included immediately to stop this bias and provide some neutrality to the article. JCRB (talk) 07:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Please desist from using insulting language referring to Gibraltar as 'a colony; is legally incorrect and most offensive. The article is about Gibraltar not a Spanish obsession. There is an article which deals with the dispute. It is not appropriate here. --Gibnews (talk) 08:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The UN Decolonisation Committee is in fact discussed in this article. Nationalist rants merely confirm your own bias and lets be honest here, you and your sockpuppet MEGV tried and failed to introduce your edit last time. The IP sock puppet you appear to be using is unhelpful. Discuss your proposed edits in a reasonable manner, without the accusations of bias and you may get somewhere. But if you plan to spam the page with tendentious arguments as you did the last time you will get nowhere. Justin talk 08:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is amongst the most blatantly biased ones in all Misplaced Pages, along with those devoted to the History of Gibraltar, Gibraltarian people and the Great Siege of Gibraltar. Give us a rest, you lot. And what JCRB says is true: why exactly a the "Jane’s Country Risk" ranking are placed in the lead section? Please, see WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Commenting on the OP, the talk page was archived, any discussion can be readily retrieved at any time. The bad faith accusation inherent in that comment was unhelpful.

To the IP above, will you please cease with the accusations of bias. You are welcome to discuss changes in the article, not to indulge in bad faith attacks on editors. Justin talk 10:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure. We are so welcome to discuss changes. But they'll never make it to the article, and will stay in the talk pages 'till the end of times. Or until you censor them, that is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 10:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah right, you got me, I'm on a mission to abolish Spain from Misplaced Pages 'cos I hate it so much. Except I'm half-Spanish and you're just trolling to get a rise. I suggest you might think about coming back when you grow up. Justin talk 11:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Wich does not change the fact that you've censored a comment just because it was displeasant to you. That is so mature... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 11:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No posting the bad faith attack (which you just admitted to) was the immature act, as is trolling a talk page to get a rise. I suggest you grow up. Justin talk 11:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ad hominem arguments? I love them, Justin. Now, do you have something related to the article to say like why is Jane's Review relevant enough to stay in the lead section, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 11:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

How about the fact that its relevant and why would you wish to expunge it? Justin talk 11:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Expunge it? Not really, but it should be relocated to the Economy section where it belongs. The lede is not the place for such statements as per WP:LEAD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 12:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Gibraltar is a British Territory and its notable that it was rated higher than any other, including the UK by a prestigious and respected organisation. This seems to upset some editors. By way of contrast I saw that the Spanish wikipedia leads with a reference showing the Gibraltarians produce more Co2 per head than anyone else, and which has been used claim we are polluting the planet.

IF the article were so 'blatently biased' I expect someone impartial would have edited it by now, but its very factual. There are indeed people living in Gibraltar who's families had to leave when it was forcibly taken from Britain despite Article XI of the Treaty of Utrecht. But lets find some references to that instead of denying it happened. Gibraltar is not reverting to Spain any time soon, and rewriting articles on wikipedia, although preferable to firing cannon balls is much the same. --Gibnews (talk) 12:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

If the Spanish wikipedia is wrong, be bold and edit there. You are welcome. But two wrongs don't make a right. As for the blatant bias and "no impartials editing", you've got a 13 talk pages archive... For god's sake... Anyway, the fact that you can't consider yourself impartial it's enlightening. A very touching revelation indeed.

PS: and it's blatant, not blatent. Have a nice and british day.

I suggest you try and edit on the Spanish wikipedia to correct the content, you'll find it illuminating. Its patrolled by an admin who was blocked on the English wikipedia for edit warring on Gibraltar. I note you're now in violation of 3RR but no one is rushing to report you. The reason we have a 13 page archive is due to the tendentious edits of ardent Spanish nationalists who have sought to overturn the balance of the present article. Oh and the lede is perfectly valid as is and in line with policy. So again why do you wish to remove material?

And while we're on the subject do you really think such a confrontational attitude is conducive towards convincing people of your argument? Justin talk 12:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Justin, dear, you are also in violation of 3RR and I'm not rushing to report you either. On the other hand, it's also revealing (as it was in Gibnews' case) that you deem as "ardent Spanish nationalism" absolutely every content in the talk pages that does not fit into your own point of view (sorry, you were speaking about "overturning the balance of the present article"). And, again, I'm not advocating for removing material, but to include it in the correct section which is *not* the lead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually no I'm not, adding incorrect information is vandalism and reverting it does not count toward 3RR. In each case I suggested you take the point to talk and to de-escalate the conversation by removing talk of bias. I disagree that the material doesn't belong in the lead, its perfectly relevant. JCRB's justification is that its an attempt to portray a positive image of the "colony". Mmm, lets see using a term that is known to be offensive really helps doesn't it? Justin talk 13:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are. I could use your very own argument to defend myself, as you are the one who in the first place reverted my edits pretending to defend the "neutral point of view". You can't be serious when stating that you tried "to de-escalate the conversation", when your textual words have been take it to talk and pls do not make POV accusations to the mere addition of a citation needed tag.

Sigh, whatever, if you merely wish to be unnecessarily confrontational you will get nowhere. You know full well I was referring to your talk page comments. If you think that saying please is confrontational there is little hope for you. Describing the Spanish residents of Minorca as British colonists was incorrect, you added an edit that you either knew to be incorrect or merely added a provocative POV edit for you own POV reasons in ignorance of the facts. Either way you don't come across as a positive contributor. Adding a citation tag where it is unnecessary is pointy, you're disrupting the article to make a point. Justin talk 14:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Calling "POV accusations" to a request for sources, is not only confrontational, but shows a real lack of understanding of what neutrality means. And if you want to speak about the Minorca bits, we could write a book on it:

1- Original sentence, which I am sure that will be displayed in the article for a long time (and which is incidental at most in the topic dealt with in the "nationality of Gibraltarian people" section): "Other groups include Minorcans (forced to leave their homes when Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802)".

2- Fact tag added to the phrase "forced to leave their homes" (a funny statement indeed, since the same article just says "the Spanish left" when those gentle British and Dutch soldiers were invited into Gibraltar).

3- Plain reverts without substantiating.

4- Then you add two sources. Namely:

- Britain’s Last Conquest of Menorca 1798 - 1802.

- Minorca, the illusory prize : a history of the British occupations of Minorca between 1708 and 1802.

5- To which I add that the last occupation of Minorca lasted for only 4 years, and that people expelled from the former British colony were British colonists.

6- At this point, you revisit my edition by stating that the information is incorrect as "they" were "Spanish people who feared reprisals from the Spanish Government".

7- "So they weren't forced" Oddly, subconscious mind can be so treacherous. You contradict yourself, which brings up the question of what exactly say the references you've provided?". I'm still waiting for an explanation, but I do know what you are going to say anyway: Yes... I am disrupting the article to make a point. Good afternoon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.56.185 (talk) 15:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you have made your point. Be aware that dissruption articles and wasting everyones time is pretty pointless. There must be something better to do that continually attack articles about Gibraltar because they don't reflect your view of the world. --Gibnews (talk) 18:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah I see continuing with the bad faith accusations. My comments simply related to your earlier comments on the talk page. As regards the article in its current state, were you to make a reasonable suggestion as to a sensible alternative I'd happily consider it. Personally I think it could be better written, your edits showed no desire to provide something better. If thats what you expected, I'm sure you will be very happy. There is nothing subconscious in anything I've written, I didn't write that particular sentence anyway. Regards. Justin talk 19:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

<unindent>Guys, I am failing to see the virtue of this debate. No-one is getting anything from it, so why continue? Lets all just walk away for a couple of days. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Narson, but if this debate is not conducting anywhere is because you don't want it. Stating that some population just left while other was forced to leave in quite similar situations is showing a double standard. I have exposed this case in the Gibraltarian people article and, incidentally, also here as this article uses the same wording. The change has been reverted several times, so the use of such loaded terms is intentional.

And Justin, perhaps you didn't write that particular sentence, but you edited the text at least 8 times to keep it. Regards.

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