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Merge to Tea Party protests

This is well-written and well-sourced but I recommend merging it into Tea Party protests as its own section (and keeping this page as a redirect). You obviously know about that other article so I wonder about your reasons for not putting this right there. Sbowers3 (talk) 12:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I started a separate article because it's a notable event. In addition to the U.S. and international media coverage, it was the largest protest against Obama since he took office (according to the NYT). There's more than a few WP articles dealing with protests in Washington, D.C. APK is a GLEEk 12:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think this an important enough topic to have an article of its own. This has been very big news on Fox and CNN (although many other news sources haven't covered it. I'm talking to you MSNBC.) This is probably the biggest of all the tea party protests, therefore it deserves its own page. Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 16:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Guys, I think this is a big deal too, but it belongs in the Tea party article, not here. Its just recent-ism to have its own article. 173.7.66.75 (talk) 04:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

personal reminder(s)

Possible sources - USA Today, NPR, AP/Time, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, ABC News (Australia), Bloomberg, ABC News (Political Punch), Denver Post, Politico, AP/Globe and Mail, Press TV (Iran), AFP/Yahoo, Al Jazeera (English), RIA Novosti, CBS News, The Daily Telegraph, The Times, RTÉ News
APK is a GLEEk 13:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

In case someone tries to readd the 1.5 million estimate. APK is a GLEEk 16:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Against Obama?

I know the general notion of these protests is that these are protests against Obama, but these are not protests just against the Democratic Party. These are protests against big government/big spending in general on both sides of the aisle. It just has been more rampant during the Obama administration than any other administration in history (Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 14:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC))

Most of the sources focus on the Obama aspect, but you're correct in regards to some of the participants protested against bigger government in general. A few of the sources currently used in the article mention that being the case for some protesters. I've changed the wording for (hopeful) clarity. APK is a GLEEk 14:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

912 Project

I also think there needs to be a mention of Glenn Beck and the 912 Project and how that inspired many of the protests across the nation and in D.C. Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 16:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Other Protests

I also think there needs to be some mention of other protests across the nation (i.e. there was one in Fort Worth that supposedly drew over 10,000 people). Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 16:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Tea Party protests has a great many events other than the Washington one. If I had a lot more energy I would propose a rewrite of this article to show more of the character of the protests. The TP protests are not just a few big days - April 15, July 4, September 12. The TPs have occurred almost weekly in hundreds of places across the country. The focus shifted over time. First the stimulus and debt, then cap-and-trade, then health care reform. Most events were rallies in typical venues, but in August most events were in front of Congressmen's offices. Sbowers3 (talk) 22:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Crowd Size

There is a widely-circulating story that there were millions, not thousands of people at the rally in DC. For example, the Daily Mail mentions there were a million people there: . Personally, I don't see any WP:RS supporting this number; I don't feel the Daily Mail is a WP:RS because they have lost some high-profile libel cases where they flat out admitted their newspaper published patent nonsense: Dailymail#Libel_lawsuits. Thoughts? Samboy (talk) 17:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This statement from ABC News explains what happened. APK is a GLEEk 17:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This link looks like a WP:RS discussing the people exaggerating the crowd size. Should we mention the exaggerated attendance numbers in this article? Samboy (talk) 18:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've added a section about the crowd size estimates. Samboy (talk) 18:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless mainstream news organizations write a story about the attendance kerfluffle, then I'm not sure it's necessary to even mention it on WP (most readers unfamiliar with the topic would probably think "big deal"). APK is a GLEEk 19:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

75,000? Numbers were hugely higher than that. Just because one source uses that number doesn't establish the low estimate. We can do better. This is almost deceivingly low. TeaParty1 (talk) 21:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

One source? All of the reliable sources use "tens of thousands" or between 60-75,000 when describing the estimated attendance. The debunked 1-1.5 million estimate that was erroneously attributed to ABC News by FreedomWorks' president is causing panic attacks on numerous blogs. This too shall pass. If a mainstream news publication reports a higher number (explaining where they got the estimate, like the WSJ did), then hooray. Until then, it's not our job to speculate. APK is a GLEEk 21:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Ya, but all of the other sources are biased to the left. They're gonna make it seem like there were less people than there were to make Obama and Dems look better, expecially NBC. Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 22:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Obviously there were more than 75,000 people. Just looking at pictures it's easy to tell. It is ridiculous to post an obvious inaccuracy just because news sources posted this. I say no number be posted until we find something more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.231.158.139 (talk) 23:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

1) I haven't mentioned NBC. 2) Everything isn't a big conspiracy. 3) You've already decided "all of the other sources are biased to the left" even though a source which includes a higher estimate has yet to be found. 4) If you think the current source being used (The Wall Street Journal) is biased to the left, then I guess that makes Fox News, The Washington Times, and The Washington Examiner hardcore leftist news outlets. 5) As previously mentioned on this page, the 1-1.5 million estimate that FreedomWorks' president claimed was from ABC News has been debunked by ABC News. Yet, some bloggers who obviously have a desire to boost attendance estimates for political reasons, are still claiming there were 1-2 million people at the march. The bias is clear, but not the type you claim. Until you can find a revised estimate from a reliable source, this discussion is pointless. Marking as resolved. (P.S. To the IP, welcome to Misplaced Pages. I suggest you read the site's policies before editing an article.) APK is a GLEEk 23:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

My mistake, I thought you were referencing that there should be other sources than the Wall Street Journal and that they are just as credible. I meant that if we add other sources, they might not be as accurate as WSJ or Fox. Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 00:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting blog article. It references a USAToday article about how the Park Service estimates crowd size. If people were tightly packed the mall could hold about 1.2 million people if the crowd extended to the Washington monument. But from the pictures I have seen, people were not that tightly packed (average packed, not tightly packed), which would lower the capacity to 600,000. So I could believe a crowd of 300,000 but not a crowd of 2 million. Not a RS but interesting anyway. Sbowers3 (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Frankly the estimates of 70,000 are way to low, to anyone who has seen the time lapse video. Further the low estimates are based on the Fire Department, which has not really ever given estimates before. Both the Washington DC Police Department, and parks and recreation estimate over a million people —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jman279 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source that still claims 1 million people attended the march, feel free to provide a link here. Without a reliable source explaining how they came up with 1 million, then the current estimate stays. It's sourced to the Wall Street Journal, who obtained an estimate from the DC Fire Department. APK is a GLEEk 19:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The ABC news piece about some people estimating there being 1,000,000 people comes from a reliable source, as per WP:RS, so I have revised the attendance figure to point to the source, while only mentioning there being 70,000 to 80,000 at the rally in the article text. While I don't think we'll find a reliable source backing up there being a million people at this rally, I think we will get, over the next few days, a number of reliable sources talking about how some people have claimed there were a million people here, at which point it will be appropriate to mention it in the article text. Samboy (talk) 23:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html NYyankees51 (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not a reliable source. Bnynms (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

But you'll have no problem with The Huffington Post links, right? R32GTR (talk) 10:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Look, that DC Fire Department estimate is bogus! It was what they were expecting, not what was counted. I was THERE. The folks were packed like sardines from the Capitol Steps all the way back along the Mall to the Washington Monument. ABC estimated 1.5 million - ABC!, for pity's sake. Clarify the Fire Department estimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DocFarmer (talk • contribs) 10:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

1.5 Million would not stop at the Washington Monument, and I say this having grown up in DC and attended more than one largely attended event on the mall. this is what 1-1.5 million people looks like and this is what the march on Saturday looked like. Were it anywhere near 1 million all of the streets in downtown DC would have been shut down (not just the ones adjacent and 2 blocks away from The Mall) the Metro and the Metro Bus systems would have been running on a special schedule, The Smithsonian station would have been shut down completely, etc... etc... — Mike :  tlk  14:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM Misplaced Pages is not a forum. Any argument there were a million people at the rally does not hold water, no matter how convincing, until it's back up by a reliable source. Samboy (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Daily Mail got their source from, the Washington Homeland Security and Emergency Management Agency. Stated in their article, and it is not reliable? R32GTR (talk) 12:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Bollucks. The Daily Mail article does not state where they got their 1,000,000 number from, and is not a reliable source, as I have already pointed out. Samboy (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

60,000 to 75,000+ is the range from reliable sources that I have seen. Beck himself is saying "One million" but nothing leads me to believe that is true. A million people is more than an order of magnitude larger, and they would have been spilling into downtown (which they were not). Neither of the two references at "80,000" mention this number, so I'm changing to reflect what the DCFD actually said ("over 75,000"). There is one source with an estimate more than an order of magnitude higher than just about everyone else. It would be WP:UNDUE to use the outlier, regardless of what various editors feel that photos show. — Mike :  tlk  14:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't looked for a source, but I was just watching the news and they stated approx. quarter of a million (250,000). Morphh 15:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

And Glenn Beck is saying "One Million" on his radio show this morning, but unfortunately we have no idea where these numbers came from, nor can we use television as a WP:RS. Michelle Malkin still has "2 Million" on her website, although once it was shown that her source was bogus she added a question mark. I wouldn't trust TV news as far as I could throw it, with all these bad numbers flying around. — Mike :  tlk  15:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Article that tries to estimate crowd size: http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=21884 Of course, not a Reliable Source. What is Misplaced Pages policy on a situation where the reliable sources are obviously wrong? MikeR613 (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The policy is WP:V. Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, regardless of what you may believe the truth to be. — Mike :  tlk  15:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

This is a notable event, but is it worth an article - the only content here is also in the Tea Party article except for something about people singing, chanting slogans and carrying signs - all of which happens at all protest marches. 173.7.66.75 (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Read my reply the first time this was proposed. APK is a GLEEk 14:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

60,000-70,000 or 75,000+

I have found two reliable sources quoting the DC fire department on the crowd size. In this article we get 'A spokesman for D.C. Fire and Emergency Medical Services estimated the crowd at "in excess of 75,000" people.', but in this article we get 'approximately 60,000 to 70,000 people flooded Pennsylvania Ave, according to the Washington DC Fire Department.' Which numbers should we use in the article? Samboy (talk) 15:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Odds are that these are not official estimates, they are just guesses from (somewhat) experienced employees of the DCFD. We don't know at what time these estimates were made, or any of the other important details necessary to choose one over the other. I suggest "The Washington, DC Fire Department estimated the attendance of the event to be at least 60,000 to 75,000". In any case, if we're going to be using the DCFD estimate, which I have no problem with, let's not mix it with the estimates of news sources. I would also argue that since the owner of The Wall Street Journal is also the boss of the face of the march, it is very much in their best interest to be as generous with their estimate as possible. — Mike :  tlk  15:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How about "Washington, DC Fire Department estimations range from 60,000 to 75,000 or more"? Samboy (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

"or more" makes it sound like the sky's the limit. Let's go with "... from 60,000 to more than 75,000". — Mike :  tlk  15:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've updated the article; this sounds reasonable. Samboy (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Michelle Malkin who hosts a time elapsed video on her website of the march, 2 MILLION people were in attendance. I was there. I have footage. NO WAY were there only 75,000 people. The American people are entitled to a REAL estimate of the crowd. WHY DO THE PARK POLICE NO LONGER PROVIDE CROWD ESTIMATES? http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/12/celebrating-the-912-rallies/ If we had called it the 2 MILLION AMERICAN MARCH I guess the Left would have had to try to debunk the claim with science instead of obfuscation and minimizing reality? Maybe?ObserverNY (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Looking at the tax party crowd (image of just one of the roads, not the center grounds) and compare it to the Obama Inauguration (which was estimated 1.8 million) and other events like the Promise Keepers rally (700,000 - 800,000), I don't see such a significant difference. There is no way it was only 75,000. Perhaps their talking about those in a certain area (by the Washington monument). Morphh 16:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOR, WP:NOTAFORUM, and WP:RS. Please understand Misplaced Pages's rules and guidelines. Samboy (talk) 16:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes I know... I did add a link to the Examiner. Just saying we need to find a valid source, because the current estimate seems fairly inaccurate. Morphh 16:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does it seem inaccurate? — Mike :  tlk  16:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I know this is not a forum but I thought I would answer the question. Mike, not sure about you but I've been in large crowds. I've been in some that were conservatively estimated at 5,000, 10,000, 75,000 and in some up to 200,000. I can say that I've never been in a crowd the size of the Washington tea party. Consider that a football stadium can hold about 75,000 people. Morphh 16:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

At first glance, The Examiner looks like a group blog; it's a page where random people on the 'net submit articles and The Examiner publishes them. In other words, it's not a reliable source. Samboy (talk) 16:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Obama Inauguration crowd extended far outside the National Mall by many blocks, and unfortunately, your photo is a low-res shot from one angle. This whole concept of judging crowd side by photos on this talk page smacks of WP:OR, your image is not comparable to a satellite photo, and a blog written by a protest attendee is not a WP:RS. I am trying to represent the crowd size accurately, but there is a lot of misinformation going around on BOTH sides (some liberal blogs are undershooting at 30,000 -- Beck and Michelle Malkin are claiming at this crowd was comparable or exceeding the Obama Inauguration (based on tweets from protest attendees, believe it or not) There are those who allege that the "liberal mass media" is reporting small crowd sizes (apparently too small by nearly an order of magnitude) so we are going with the DC Fire Department estimation, and citing with Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal. How much more objective can we get? — Mike :  tlk  16:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me be clear that I was not suggesting we determine the size ourselves or engage in OR. I was only pointing out what seems to be the obvious, so that we don't treat this like truth. It would be nice if we had a primary source from the FD to back up that they actually estimated the final crowd size at the figures presented. Morphh 16:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no reason to believe that estimates of 75,000 are wholly inaccurate, especially to the degree that is being suggested by some (i.e., those who think actual attendance exceeded 1 million). What may seem obvious to you is not obvious to me. All I have to go on are reliable sources, any my own personal experience of having lived in DC for two decades, and having been in a crowd of over 1 million on the National Mall. The larger estimates seem to be coming from those who stand to gain from the event having had a massive turnout (conservative talk show hosts, sponsors of the event, bloggers who frequently are guests on the shows of the organizers of the event, attendees of the event, etc...). I don't trust their estimates any more than I trust HuffPo's estimate of 30,000. — Mike :  tlk  16:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a very fine line between "what seems to be the obvious" and original research. As for primary sources, WP:NOR points out that secondary sources are actually better. As a Misplaced Pages editor, I have no opinion on how many people were at the rally. All I care about is the number of people reliable sources say were there; right now, I haven't seen anything quote a million or more people that looks like a reliable source. Samboy (talk) 16:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Samboy - Michelle Malkin is currently the #1 author on the NYT's Best Seller List (non-fiction). http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/bestseller/ You don't consider her time-elapse video a "reliable source"? ObserverNY (talk) 16:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

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