Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
Everyone happy now? ] (]) 20:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Everyone happy now? ] (]) 20:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Karanacs, this is the third FAC for him to do this. He has just returned to editing so it is not a coincidence. His only edits at FAC are to my pages. He has on his own added 30k to the FAC and he is not done. That is more than double what everyone else has written. This makes it almost impossible for other people to have any ability to comment. This is a clear WP:POINT violation and I would like it dealt with. If FAC does not want to handle it, I would have no choice but to open up an ANI page calling for a ban based on WP:HARASS. Raul made sure that it wouldn't have had to come to this last time. ] (]) 20:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Karanacs, this is the third FAC for him to do this. He has just returned to editing so it is not a coincidence. His only edits at FAC are to my pages. He has on his own added 30k to the FAC and he is not done. That is more than double what everyone else has written. This makes it almost impossible for other people to have any ability to comment. This is a clear WP:POINT violation and I would like it dealt with. If FAC does not want to handle it, I would have no choice but to open up an ANI page calling for a ban based on WP:HARASS. Raul made sure that it wouldn't have had to come to this last time. ] (]) 20:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::That is why I am asking Fowler to limit his comments on the FAC page itself (so that others aren't scared off). Other editors have agreed with at least a few of his comments. If you don't like his comments, disengage. This does not currently need to be escalated. ] (]) 20:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone perform an image review on some of the FACs at the bottom - looking for copyright problems, fair use problems, etc. I noticed that the Covent Garden Journal FAC hasn't yet received one among others (so, those at the 20 day mark and older are in need). Ottava Rima (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
We have at least 14 image reviews outsanding on FACs that are maturing towards promotion. I typically promote on Saturday, although lately, I've been waiting 'til Sunday because image reviews are lacking. If they don't get done, my choices are to 1) not pr/ar, or 2) promote FACs with no image review. Going through FAC with so many still missing image reviews doesn't make much sense. Feedback? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
During its proposed deletion several months ago, Outriggr (talk·contribs) suggested restructuring it. I thought it was a good idea and could be used by editors looking for help or suggestions from others who have written similar articles. The discussion seems to have stalled and I opened an RfC on it. See here, please. --Moni3 (talk) 12:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
An editor recently began removing the bold in various article opening sentences, several of them FAs such as History of Puerto Rico & Renewable energy in Scotland. To my surprise these actions are backed up by a MOS guideline I had not come across before - Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (text formatting) - see the WP:MOSBOLD section - which states that "If the article topic does not have a commonly accepted name, but is merely descriptive (e.g., history of the United States), the title does not need to appear in the first sentence, and is not bolded if it does."
The problem as I see it is that the policy of emboldening article titles is so widespread that this guideline has in effect fallen into disuse and its likely that hundreds of articles, many of them FAs and certainly FLs do not adhere to it. It seems to me that is going to be easier and more consistent to amend this MOS page than the many others it affects.
Well, speaking as someone with more familiarity with FLC than FAC, I think you'll find that the FL community is well aware of this guideline. No list has been promoted with "This is a list of things" as the lead sentence for a very long time. So I'm not sure why you wrote "certainly FLs do not adhere to it". Old ones may not, but then again old FAs and FLs may be deficient in various ways. Bencherlite19:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
My issue with this is that one editor took it upon himself to change dozens of FAs when the FA community has a differing opinion of what this means. The rule itself is unclear. I don't know why the first line/title of the article should not be bold, so I don't know where this particular issue comes from. I cannot say who put it in WP:MOSBOLD and what community discussion/thought process went into adding it. If folks here decide to make it clear and widely understood in FAs, then so be it, but I think it should be discussed here before changes are made to articles. --Moni3 (talk) 19:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Guidelines don't need to be discussed at FAC before being implemented. Changes to MOS are discussed at the relevant MOS talk pages and FAs are expected to follow them as is any other article. If you disagree with the specific MOS guideline then you can propose a change over there. And while editors are certanly free to discuss the issue here, any final decision needs to be taken at the relevant talk page. 189.105.1.25 (talk) 20:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I understand where changes need to be made and discussed, but if an editor is going to change FAs only when editors who work on FAs have a different general understanding about the MOS, then FA editors should be aware that 1. their understanding of MOS issues is flawed, or the policy should be clarified and 2. FAs should adhere to the MOS, and editors should be given the opportunity to give input or make changes to the articles they work on. --Moni3 (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of articles at the bottom of the list that have been up for almost a month and have few or no reviews. Several of the articles are pretty close to being able to be promoted, but still need more eyes. PLEASE review as many articles as you can over the next few days so that I won't have to archive these. Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 16:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been wondering if we need to make it more clear in the FAC instructions that all editors are invited to review an article. Twice in the last few weeks I've spoken with nominators who weren't sure if they needed permission to begin reviewing or not. I want to make sure we get as many reviewers as possible. Perhaps we could expand the first point under Supporting and Opposing? Karanacs (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Support :) as a newbie, I wasn't sure what the process was, even after reading guidelines, etc. Also, it could be made clearer that some reviewers actually only review on one or two of the requirements, such as images or sources, or whatever...and that they simply write meets c 3 , or something to that effect. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Tailing on that, I review on what I feel qualified to review on, which sometimes is connected to an overall feeling or impression of the article. I was hesitant to get involved in review in the beginning because I didn't feel I had the expertise to comment on aspects of subject I knew nothing of, or articles that were too technically outside my scope. I think reviewers should be welcomed to give reviews on whatever they feel like reviewing as long as they can back it up with some reasoning. --Moni3 (talk) 17:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches for an overview of the review process.
I'll pile-on agree with Moni here. Except in absolutely glaring cases (images forced so wide they go off the edge of the screen, color-coded headers, etc) I always ignore MOS considerations entirely when it comes to reviewing, as I don't agree with strict-compliance or standardization of appearance and think the main criteria should be "Is it accurate?", "Is it verifiable?", "Is it comprehensive?" and "Is it interesting?". If we give the impression that everyone is supposed to be looking at every aspect, all it does is put people off; I imagine I know more than most about Misplaced Pages standards, but I no longer touch GAC reviewing because of the insistence that reviewers are familiar with all the arbitrary standards against which every reviewer is expected to check every article. – iridescent18:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Karanacs' suggestion is an improvement, but it doesn't go far enough in welcoming and encouraging reviewers. This welcoming should also be put at the very start of the instructions. I propose the following change as well (new text):
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Misplaced Pages's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.
I think it's a help, definitely. It should also be clear to new editors that we don't have to be experts on all of the "criteria", right? I try to make it clear that I'm not touching the images and much of the technical stuff... I leave that to people like Eubulides and Stifle, who know the rules about public domain etc. better than I do. What I do feel comfortable discussing, on nearly any subject, is the quality of the writing, contextualizing the subject/topic, and the relationship to claim and verifiability. And basically, if the quality of the writing is good, it doesn't matter what the subject is, because it's an e n c y c l o p e d i a, duh, and we should be able to learn something from it. I've read more about those **** battleships than I ever thought I would, am not really interested in those **** battleships, but the articles are well and intelligibly done, and a sensible contribution. If I'm done reading it and am totally confused, as I was with some bridge thing I reviewed not too long ago, or put off, as I was on a different article, or it would take tooo much to get it into shape, then ... obviously, it's not ready for prime time.
on a slightly different note, and perhaps this will eventually warrant another section...there recently was an article by a non-native English writing editor that had really quite minor grammatical problems, easily fixed. A couple reviewers made it sound like it was the end of the world. Another editor and I fixed the grammatical problems, but the response to this editor's nomination was initially very bluntly stated. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Unless we're talking about a different case, I believe that was a translation, and translations get into serious WP:V issues-- did the person translating consult and verify all of the sources, or did they just translate what was there? If we're talking about the same case, the comments were warranted, not because of the prose, but because it was a translation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
no, it's not the same case. This wasn't a translation of another article on another wiki, it was an original article. And it did have some serious problems in the prose, which were fixed. It seemed to me that the reviewer bringing this up was less than tactful (and I got on that reviewer's case about it too, but off the review page). The article is in good shape now, and I think it will go through the process without a problem. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I've made updates to the instructions. There are now 2 invitations to review (with links to the dispatch FAQ) as well as a note for specialized reviewers to let us know what the support means. Does this loook okay? Karanacs (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Dear nominators and reviewers: a few weeks ago there was extensive discussion on this page about the vast size, complexity and instability of the Manual of Style, which concerns the FAC process through the operation of Criterion 2. On reviewing the text of the MoS, I agree that the Manual is much larger than necessary to cover the areas it does: about 20 thousand words. In particular:
it is often wordy;
it provides more examples than necessary;
it lectures around some of its points in a way that is not strictly necessary;
it is a little repetitive and disorganised.
As a service to nominators, reviewers and editors at larger, I've created a new, user-friendly version of the MoS that is only 40% of the size of the full version. There are no intended changes in substantive meaning. The new version has the following features:
brevity and directness of language, including the default use of active voice and contractives;
new inline headings for every point, for ease of navigation;
the removal of highly specialised points about numbers and dates, which are treated by MOSNUM;
the removal of a few other sections that appear to be on the fringe, including Blason;
the addition of a Currency section, summarised from MOSNUM.
improvements in structural organisation;
the use of links by asterisk, to reduce clutter.
Any changes to the full MoS as reflected in the new version will be notified here, at the start of each month. Your feedback is welcome on the talk page.Tony(talk)02:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
"Do not place left-aligned images directly below a subsection-level heading (=== or lower), as this sometimes disconnects the heading from the text that follows it. This can often be avoided by shifting left-aligned images down a paragraph or two."
That thread is still discussing a proposal to replace "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other" with "Images should be laid out so that they work well with browser windows as narrow as 800 pixels and as wide as 2000 pixels". Further comments are welcome there. Eubulides (talk) 23:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update Eubulides. This had been a stable guideline since 2007, but consensus at WT:MOS and FACs (partly a result of discussion with a visually impaired user who uses a screen reader) is that there is no accessibility problem with this practice, as some had thought. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
and the instruction has been as murky as mud to a lot of people. the bit about placing images directly below a 3 level heading. It took me about 3 months to figure out what that actually meant. And in the meantime dabomb got pretty annoyed w/ me when I kept putting the image left aligned (following the instruction left right left right on images), and s/he kept moving it back, and then I kept moving it back, and so on. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, MOS#Images has always been confusing (don't sandwich images, stagger left-right, images face the page, start with a right-aligned image even when this contradicts other MOS guidance, etc). Hopefully Tony1's condensation of the guidelines will help. I'm male by the way :) Dabomb87 (talk) 00:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
If people would remember, Fowler has trolled my FACs before, including Samuel Johnson's early life, and he was warned for it. Almost everything he says either goes against all basic English grammar or is pure nonsense. He even claims that there is a problem with "The ode begins with an epigraph from Matthew 6:28: 'They toil not, neither do they spin.'" It is a declarative sentence that is impossible to find any grammatical fault with.
I am proposing the following:
Ban Fowler indefinitely from all FACs I am nominator on, and I will not edit any FACs that he is nominator on.
or Ban Fowler from FAC indefinitely.
or Block Fowler for WP:POINT and general disruption followed by a removal of his comments from the FAC so normal people with legitimate concerns are not overwhelmed by this.
Meanwhile, can anyone on Misplaced Pages, any of the FAC regulars,such as Awadewit, Tony1, Moni3, Karanacs, Malleus F., Ceoil, Cert, YellowMonkey—other than Ottava Rima, that is—point out mistakes in my critique? This seems to be the standard Ottava Rima response. Either quote unnamed people who have agreed with him privately in various forums, or drag the critique to ANI or wherever it is this time. The problem with the sentence quoted above is that it is ambiguous. Think about it. Fowler&fowler«Talk»19:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree that some of your criticisms are excessively trivial, and could be fixed simply by clicking the edit button. –Juliancolton | 19:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Ceranthor - they aren't nickpicky. They are trolling. This shows that the first thing he does on coming back is to do this. He did the same thing at The Lucy poems FAC and Samuel Johnson's early life FAC. He has not edited -any- other FAC in this manner. He has also declared that every page I write is filled with grammatical errors and problems and that not one line is correct. This was during The Lucy poems FAC. The "concerns" range from trivia to patently absurd and show a complete lack of understanding basic grammatical structure. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I realize that now, after reading through the comments. The suggested corrections are somewhat ridiculous, I haven't came across one that made sense. ceranthor20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
We generally do not ban editors from FAC. Sandy and I read through all the comments and give them the appropriate weight.
Fowler&Fowler, it is not necessary (nor encouraged) to list every single prose issue that you found in the article on the FAC page. In general, it is best to list a representative sample on the FAC page, and you can leave further details on the article talk page (with a note at FAC linking back to that discussion).
Ottava, nominators do not have to implement every suggestion made by the reviewer. If you disagree with the suggestions, state your reason why and then disengage with the reviewer. Again, Sandy and I read through all the comments and we take your comments into consideration as well.
Karanacs, this is the third FAC for him to do this. He has just returned to editing so it is not a coincidence. His only edits at FAC are to my pages. He has on his own added 30k to the FAC and he is not done. That is more than double what everyone else has written. This makes it almost impossible for other people to have any ability to comment. This is a clear WP:POINT violation and I would like it dealt with. If FAC does not want to handle it, I would have no choice but to open up an ANI page calling for a ban based on WP:HARASS. Raul made sure that it wouldn't have had to come to this last time. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That is why I am asking Fowler to limit his comments on the FAC page itself (so that others aren't scared off). Other editors have agreed with at least a few of his comments. If you don't like his comments, disengage. This does not currently need to be escalated. Karanacs (talk) 20:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
