Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
Secondly, there certainly must be better ways to handle the stress of FAC, and particularly problems with a single editor than demanding they be put on FAC topic ban. This seems to be an issue of self-governance and I will be honest in saying, though not limited to the editors at FAC, that it appears that self-governance seems to be at an all-time low lately. The moment an editor brings an article to FAC s/he must be confident in the material and writing, but not so arrogant to think it could not be improved. The community should not have to validate the efforts of an editor by agreeing with him or her in categorically denying the input of another editor. Have some faith in the system--the collective of editors--to be able to realize what should be fixed and what can be compromised. --] (]) 12:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Secondly, there certainly must be better ways to handle the stress of FAC, and particularly problems with a single editor than demanding they be put on FAC topic ban. This seems to be an issue of self-governance and I will be honest in saying, though not limited to the editors at FAC, that it appears that self-governance seems to be at an all-time low lately. The moment an editor brings an article to FAC s/he must be confident in the material and writing, but not so arrogant to think it could not be improved. The community should not have to validate the efforts of an editor by agreeing with him or her in categorically denying the input of another editor. Have some faith in the system--the collective of editors--to be able to realize what should be fixed and what can be compromised. --] (]) 12:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:The first option was only to prohibit him from editing my FACs as they tend to be the problematic ones. And, as Slim Virgin has stated, a few of the problems Fowler had were with her fixes, and I agree that her changes did improve the page. So, there really wasn't anything about me favouring the page (especially when I was responsible for only half of it, and there were many, many copyeditors since my original wording). I respond merely as someone who has taught grammar, rhetoric, and linguistics. ] (]) 14:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:The first option was only to prohibit him from editing my FACs as they tend to be the problematic ones. And, as Slim Virgin has stated, a few of the problems Fowler had were with her fixes, and I agree that her changes did improve the page. So, there really wasn't anything about me favouring the page (especially when I was responsible for only half of it, and there were many, many copyeditors since my original wording). I respond merely as someone who has taught grammar, rhetoric, and linguistics. ] (]) 14:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::there are many of us here who teach grammar, rhetoric and linguistics. Ottava, please chill on this. I'm reluctant to comment on any of your FACs because your reputation precedes you, and I don't have time for arguing. When I write something I hope it will be useful to someone. My goal is not to show off my erudition, but to provide something usable, intelligible, accurate (verifiably so), and worthwhile for someone to read. I don't want to spend my wiki-time arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. ] (]) 14:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone perform an image review on some of the FACs at the bottom - looking for copyright problems, fair use problems, etc. I noticed that the Covent Garden Journal FAC hasn't yet received one among others (so, those at the 20 day mark and older are in need). Ottava Rima (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
We have at least 14 image reviews outsanding on FACs that are maturing towards promotion. I typically promote on Saturday, although lately, I've been waiting 'til Sunday because image reviews are lacking. If they don't get done, my choices are to 1) not pr/ar, or 2) promote FACs with no image review. Going through FAC with so many still missing image reviews doesn't make much sense. Feedback? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
During its proposed deletion several months ago, Outriggr (talk·contribs) suggested restructuring it. I thought it was a good idea and could be used by editors looking for help or suggestions from others who have written similar articles. The discussion seems to have stalled and I opened an RfC on it. See here, please. --Moni3 (talk) 12:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
An editor recently began removing the bold in various article opening sentences, several of them FAs such as History of Puerto Rico & Renewable energy in Scotland. To my surprise these actions are backed up by a MOS guideline I had not come across before - Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (text formatting) - see the WP:MOSBOLD section - which states that "If the article topic does not have a commonly accepted name, but is merely descriptive (e.g., history of the United States), the title does not need to appear in the first sentence, and is not bolded if it does."
The problem as I see it is that the policy of emboldening article titles is so widespread that this guideline has in effect fallen into disuse and its likely that hundreds of articles, many of them FAs and certainly FLs do not adhere to it. It seems to me that is going to be easier and more consistent to amend this MOS page than the many others it affects.
Well, speaking as someone with more familiarity with FLC than FAC, I think you'll find that the FL community is well aware of this guideline. No list has been promoted with "This is a list of things" as the lead sentence for a very long time. So I'm not sure why you wrote "certainly FLs do not adhere to it". Old ones may not, but then again old FAs and FLs may be deficient in various ways. Bencherlite19:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
My issue with this is that one editor took it upon himself to change dozens of FAs when the FA community has a differing opinion of what this means. The rule itself is unclear. I don't know why the first line/title of the article should not be bold, so I don't know where this particular issue comes from. I cannot say who put it in WP:MOSBOLD and what community discussion/thought process went into adding it. If folks here decide to make it clear and widely understood in FAs, then so be it, but I think it should be discussed here before changes are made to articles. --Moni3 (talk) 19:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Guidelines don't need to be discussed at FAC before being implemented. Changes to MOS are discussed at the relevant MOS talk pages and FAs are expected to follow them as is any other article. If you disagree with the specific MOS guideline then you can propose a change over there. And while editors are certanly free to discuss the issue here, any final decision needs to be taken at the relevant talk page. 189.105.1.25 (talk) 20:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I understand where changes need to be made and discussed, but if an editor is going to change FAs only when editors who work on FAs have a different general understanding about the MOS, then FA editors should be aware that 1. their understanding of MOS issues is flawed, or the policy should be clarified and 2. FAs should adhere to the MOS, and editors should be given the opportunity to give input or make changes to the articles they work on. --Moni3 (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of articles at the bottom of the list that have been up for almost a month and have few or no reviews. Several of the articles are pretty close to being able to be promoted, but still need more eyes. PLEASE review as many articles as you can over the next few days so that I won't have to archive these. Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 16:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been wondering if we need to make it more clear in the FAC instructions that all editors are invited to review an article. Twice in the last few weeks I've spoken with nominators who weren't sure if they needed permission to begin reviewing or not. I want to make sure we get as many reviewers as possible. Perhaps we could expand the first point under Supporting and Opposing? Karanacs (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Support :) as a newbie, I wasn't sure what the process was, even after reading guidelines, etc. Also, it could be made clearer that some reviewers actually only review on one or two of the requirements, such as images or sources, or whatever...and that they simply write meets c 3 , or something to that effect. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Tailing on that, I review on what I feel qualified to review on, which sometimes is connected to an overall feeling or impression of the article. I was hesitant to get involved in review in the beginning because I didn't feel I had the expertise to comment on aspects of subject I knew nothing of, or articles that were too technically outside my scope. I think reviewers should be welcomed to give reviews on whatever they feel like reviewing as long as they can back it up with some reasoning. --Moni3 (talk) 17:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches for an overview of the review process.
I'll pile-on agree with Moni here. Except in absolutely glaring cases (images forced so wide they go off the edge of the screen, color-coded headers, etc) I always ignore MOS considerations entirely when it comes to reviewing, as I don't agree with strict-compliance or standardization of appearance and think the main criteria should be "Is it accurate?", "Is it verifiable?", "Is it comprehensive?" and "Is it interesting?". If we give the impression that everyone is supposed to be looking at every aspect, all it does is put people off; I imagine I know more than most about Misplaced Pages standards, but I no longer touch GAC reviewing because of the insistence that reviewers are familiar with all the arbitrary standards against which every reviewer is expected to check every article. – iridescent18:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Karanacs' suggestion is an improvement, but it doesn't go far enough in welcoming and encouraging reviewers. This welcoming should also be put at the very start of the instructions. I propose the following change as well (new text):
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Misplaced Pages's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.
I think it's a help, definitely. It should also be clear to new editors that we don't have to be experts on all of the "criteria", right? I try to make it clear that I'm not touching the images and much of the technical stuff... I leave that to people like Eubulides and Stifle, who know the rules about public domain etc. better than I do. What I do feel comfortable discussing, on nearly any subject, is the quality of the writing, contextualizing the subject/topic, and the relationship to claim and verifiability. And basically, if the quality of the writing is good, it doesn't matter what the subject is, because it's an e n c y c l o p e d i a, duh, and we should be able to learn something from it. I've read more about those **** battleships than I ever thought I would, am not really interested in those **** battleships, but the articles are well and intelligibly done, and a sensible contribution. If I'm done reading it and am totally confused, as I was with some bridge thing I reviewed not too long ago, or put off, as I was on a different article, or it would take tooo much to get it into shape, then ... obviously, it's not ready for prime time.
on a slightly different note, and perhaps this will eventually warrant another section...there recently was an article by a non-native English writing editor that had really quite minor grammatical problems, easily fixed. A couple reviewers made it sound like it was the end of the world. Another editor and I fixed the grammatical problems, but the response to this editor's nomination was initially very bluntly stated. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Unless we're talking about a different case, I believe that was a translation, and translations get into serious WP:V issues-- did the person translating consult and verify all of the sources, or did they just translate what was there? If we're talking about the same case, the comments were warranted, not because of the prose, but because it was a translation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
no, it's not the same case. This wasn't a translation of another article on another wiki, it was an original article. And it did have some serious problems in the prose, which were fixed. It seemed to me that the reviewer bringing this up was less than tactful (and I got on that reviewer's case about it too, but off the review page). The article is in good shape now, and I think it will go through the process without a problem. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I've made updates to the instructions. There are now 2 invitations to review (with links to the dispatch FAQ) as well as a note for specialized reviewers to let us know what the support means. Does this loook okay? Karanacs (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Dear nominators and reviewers: a few weeks ago there was extensive discussion on this page about the vast size, complexity and instability of the Manual of Style, which concerns the FAC process through the operation of Criterion 2. On reviewing the text of the MoS, I agree that the Manual is much larger than necessary to cover the areas it does: about 20 thousand words. In particular:
it is often wordy;
it provides more examples than necessary;
it lectures around some of its points in a way that is not strictly necessary;
it is a little repetitive and disorganised.
As a service to nominators, reviewers and editors at larger, I've created a new, user-friendly version of the MoS that is only 40% of the size of the full version. There are no intended changes in substantive meaning. The new version has the following features:
brevity and directness of language, including the default use of active voice and contractives;
new inline headings for every point, for ease of navigation;
the removal of highly specialised points about numbers and dates, which are treated by MOSNUM;
the removal of a few other sections that appear to be on the fringe, including Blason;
the addition of a Currency section, summarised from MOSNUM.
improvements in structural organisation;
the use of links by asterisk, to reduce clutter.
Any changes to the full MoS as reflected in the new version will be notified here, at the start of each month. Your feedback is welcome on the talk page.Tony(talk)02:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
"Do not place left-aligned images directly below a subsection-level heading (=== or lower), as this sometimes disconnects the heading from the text that follows it. This can often be avoided by shifting left-aligned images down a paragraph or two."
That thread is still discussing a proposal to replace "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other" with "Images should be laid out so that they work well with browser windows as narrow as 800 pixels and as wide as 2000 pixels". Further comments are welcome there. Eubulides (talk) 23:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update Eubulides. This had been a stable guideline since 2007, but consensus at WT:MOS and FACs (partly a result of discussion with a visually impaired user who uses a screen reader) is that there is no accessibility problem with this practice, as some had thought. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
and the instruction has been as murky as mud to a lot of people. the bit about placing images directly below a 3 level heading. It took me about 3 months to figure out what that actually meant. And in the meantime dabomb got pretty annoyed w/ me when I kept putting the image left aligned (following the instruction left right left right on images), and s/he kept moving it back, and then I kept moving it back, and so on. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, MOS#Images has always been confusing (don't sandwich images, stagger left-right, images face the page, start with a right-aligned image even when this contradicts other MOS guidance, etc). Hopefully Tony1's condensation of the guidelines will help. I'm male by the way :) Dabomb87 (talk) 00:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
If people would remember, Fowler has trolled my FACs before, including Samuel Johnson's early life, and he was warned for it. Almost everything he says either goes against all basic English grammar or is pure nonsense. He even claims that there is a problem with "The ode begins with an epigraph from Matthew 6:28: 'They toil not, neither do they spin.'" It is a declarative sentence that is impossible to find any grammatical fault with.
I am proposing the following:
Ban Fowler indefinitely from all FACs I am nominator on, and I will not edit any FACs that he is nominator on.
or Ban Fowler from FAC indefinitely.
or Block Fowler for WP:POINT and general disruption followed by a removal of his comments from the FAC so normal people with legitimate concerns are not overwhelmed by this.
Meanwhile, can anyone on Misplaced Pages, any of the FAC regulars,such as Awadewit, Tony1, Moni3, Karanacs, Malleus F., Ceoil, Cert, YellowMonkey—other than Ottava Rima, that is—point out mistakes in my critique? This seems to be the standard Ottava Rima response. Either quote unnamed people who have agreed with him privately in various forums, or drag the critique to ANI or wherever it is this time. The problem with the sentence quoted above is that it is ambiguous. Think about it. Fowler&fowler«Talk»19:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree that some of your criticisms are excessively trivial, and could be fixed simply by clicking the edit button. –Juliancolton | 19:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Ceranthor - they aren't nickpicky. They are trolling. This shows that the first thing he does on coming back is to do this. He did the same thing at The Lucy poems FAC and Samuel Johnson's early life FAC. He has not edited -any- other FAC in this manner. He has also declared that every page I write is filled with grammatical errors and problems and that not one line is correct. This was during The Lucy poems FAC. The "concerns" range from trivia to patently absurd and show a complete lack of understanding basic grammatical structure. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I realize that now, after reading through the comments. The suggested corrections are somewhat ridiculous, I haven't came across one that made sense. ceranthor20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
We generally do not ban editors from FAC. Sandy and I read through all the comments and give them the appropriate weight.
Fowler&Fowler, it is not necessary (nor encouraged) to list every single prose issue that you found in the article on the FAC page. In general, it is best to list a representative sample on the FAC page, and you can leave further details on the article talk page (with a note at FAC linking back to that discussion).
Ottava, nominators do not have to implement every suggestion made by the reviewer. If you disagree with the suggestions, state your reason why and then disengage with the reviewer. Again, Sandy and I read through all the comments and we take your comments into consideration as well.
Karanacs, this is the third FAC for him to do this. He has just returned to editing so it is not a coincidence. His only edits at FAC are to my pages. He has on his own added 30k to the FAC and he is not done. That is more than double what everyone else has written. This makes it almost impossible for other people to have any ability to comment. This is a clear WP:POINT violation and I would like it dealt with. If FAC does not want to handle it, I would have no choice but to open up an ANI page calling for a ban based on WP:HARASS. Raul made sure that it wouldn't have had to come to this last time. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That is why I am asking Fowler to limit his comments on the FAC page itself (so that others aren't scared off). Other editors have agreed with at least a few of his comments. If you don't like his comments, disengage. This does not currently need to be escalated. Karanacs (talk) 20:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Karanacs - his concerns, every single one, show a misunderstanding of grammar and the rest. Look at the above example where there is no possible way to make the claim he does, and yet he does. He does this for -everything-. Either he has such a flawed understanding of every possible grammar rule, or it is done on purpose. Is it a coincidence that the first thing he does on returning to Misplaced Pages is to review this FAC? He never reviews FACs besides mine. There is a clear reason. I would rather not have to bring this to ANI when we can simply solve the matter with a clear prohibition. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Fowler knows how to limit his comments, see the Rob Hemance FAC. The timing of Fowler's return to editing, the length of comments, commenting on the grammar of Ottava's reply, and the trivial nature of some of the points are suspicious. Nev1 (talk) 20:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Reasoning that we consider unactionable, flawed, or against consensus is ignored during the promotion/archive process. Therefore, if Fowler agrees to limit his text on this FAC page so as not to intimidate other reviewers, he is not causing a detriment to the FAC process nor is he harming the article. If the text is much too long on the FAC page, feel free to wrap it in a show/hide box with a note that the issues are not closed (we can make an exception). For my perspective as an FAC delegate, I don't care how much text a reviewer spews on the page; if the text is garbage, I'm going to ignore it; if the advice is valuable, I'll consider it. Just ignore the requests you disagree with, stop taking the bait, and see if it dies down. Karanacs (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
There may be a serious issue here, I haven't looked at the review so I don't know, but Ottava's claim that "He {Fowler&fowler] never reviews FACs besides mine" is patently untrue. He gave my nomination of this a pretty good coshing at FAC as I recall. --MalleusFatuorum20:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps I should clarify - in this manner. You can compare. Plus, this followed the fall out from this page when he was warned about his actions. Do I need to requote where he attacked every page of mine and stated that he would not stop until he proved that every line was wrong in them? Ottava Rima (talk) 20:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I've just been through some of the other FACs where Fowler has participated. Consider YellowMonkey's Ron Hamence, Proteins' Euclidean algorithm, and ErgoSum88's Federal Bridge Gross Weight Formula. While these do prove that Fowler edits FACs other than just Ottava's, they also demonstrate that Fowler is quite verbose, and is capable of writing volumes of text about the finest points. In at least one case, he hadn't even read the article (Euclidean algorithm) and was already dominating the page with some issue of syntax or semantics. What is of even more interest to me is the dramatic contrast presented when Fowler participates in FACs involving editors he has had conflicts with. Consider Ottava Rima's Samuel Johnson's early life, The Lucy Poems, and Dineshkannambadi's Kannada literature in the Kingdom of Mysore, the last of which was the finale in a long conflict between Fowler and Dineshkannambadi that manifested itself in several FACs and FARs. Dineshkannambadi finally left Misplaced Pages after this last one.
I submit that it might be better for Fowler to avoid the FACs of editors he has ongoing conflicts with, and I would love it if he would agree to do so voluntarily. I do understand that the FAC director and delegates can weigh his feedback and act as necessary, but I'm not sure we need to put them through the exercise of wading through all that text trying to determine what is objective feedback and what might be a product of the long-standing dispute between Fowler and the author. --Andy Walsh(talk)20:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)]
(ec)My impression from reading the comments in the FAC page is that Fowler makes a number of pertinent points (the 'most enjoyed' is a prime example) and many nit-picky points (but addressing nit-picky points only improves the article). However, he also goes over the top in his comments about Ottava Rima's grammar expertise and my suggestion is that he confine his comments to issues with the articles rather than focusing on the editor. Not only is that bad form, it is also unwarranted when all OttavaRima is trying to do is to make an FA quality article for which he should be commended rather than harassed. May I add that OttavaRima is clearly no pushover (I liked the 'absolutely redundant' comment!), so perhaps Karanacs admonishment is enough. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 21:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC) (Post ec addition: While I agree with Laser_brain that perhaps F&F might want to voluntarily not participate in FACs where he has had a conflict with other editors, the reality is that he is often right and sometimes conflict is necessary. In the DK case, for example, F&f was right in pointing out that the articles were really almost all synthesized (though he was wrong, IMO, in ascribing motives to DK, who, I think, was just being overly earnest.) In the case of OttavaRima, though (this has gotta be an incorrectly used though!), his comments are more pedantic and the level of acerbity is uncalled for.) --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 21:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone, especially Karanacs, Malleus, Laser Brain and RegentsPark, for you comments. I've moved the last unresponded part of my critique to the article's talk page. I have to say, the part about the Euclidean Algorithm is funny. I think there was a good reason why the primary authors were being somewhat differential to me. I know the subject somewhat, and I'm guessing my language must have demonstrated that. It is true, I never got around to reading the article ...! Fowler&fowler«Talk»21:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Karanacs, as Ottava knows, I am opposed to banning people from FAC, and I do my best to stay abreast of personal animosities that are carried from other parts of Wiki to FAC and to account for those. FAC works; don't sweat the little stuff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
You're right, Ceranthor. That seems like an appropriate end to this episode. I should add, in response to Sandy Georgia's post, I've never interacted with Ottava Rima outside of FAC. I had no awareness of his existence, until he reacted shrilly to my critique of the The Lucy poems earlier this year. He and user:Dinesh Kannambadi, both very thin-skinned and defensive in their responses at FAC, are the only two people I've had such interaction with. The other nominators of Lucy, for example, Ceoil and Kafka Liz, became good Wiki friends, in the aftermath of the FAC. The same with Malleus F (in Manchester Small machine) or the author of the Federal Bridge Formula, I can't say I've had any issues with them. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»23:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, personally I think it might be wise to think before commenting of Ottava's FACs, or perhaps avoiding them altogether. ceranthor00:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Fowler was crucial in taking The Lucy poems across FAC; an article in which myself and Ottava were co-noms. I have to say, in the end F&f went to great lenghts to help us, went to fine detail, created sub-pages with suggestions, found images and after the first archived (it took 2) FAC, was personalble, took the time to listen, and made such effort that for sure I consider him a wiki friend, professionally -as it were- and personally. However he clashed with Ottava big time during that first FAC-with fault on both sides-, and I cringed, the way you do, through cracked fingers. Dunno- the two are too alike, stubborn, self assured and deeply impatient. Both are great reviwers, and highly capable when it comes to content if they managed to tone it down in heated situations. I know both are in my top5 people I would like to have look after a page I was looking for feedback from. But they are so alike, these guys should just ignore each other - this fight can never be won. Ceoil (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
As a somewhat neutral observer, part-timer at FAC my observation is that they are both brilliant editors, neither should be banned from anything although they might, both be more mindful and respectful of each other; or at least give each other some needed slack...Modernist (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to thank both Ceoil and Modernist for their very generous remarks and helpful suggestions. If congeniality were the overall governing principle of FAC, believe me, I would begin ignoring Ottava Rima with the promptest dispatch. But is anyone willing to go out on a limb and say that the prose in "Ode on Indolence is brilliant? If so, could they provide some examples from the article? Or have we abandoned that principle now? Fowler&fowler«Talk»03:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
With respect, Fowler, you are ignoring the letter of what was just said. Deny. Its clear there is history and ye two need to be kept apart - let Ottava's FAC's be some one else's problems, no doubt your ability is need on many other pages. Look at the huge backlog. Ceoil (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I was asked to opine (screeeeeeee) here. Only by reading this thread so far and not wanting to get sucked into a problematic FAC, I have two points:
Comments at FAC should be given only to improve the article. Actions from reviewers should be taken in the spirit of improvement, not impediment. If the article's problems are too complicated to overcome in the time you are willing to spend in assisting, gently encourage the nominator to delist the article to work more on it (then still give helpful advice). FAC is not intended to list every single thing you think is wrong with the article, and if there are issues you can fix that you think can be improved, then do it yourself. If you are not willing to comment in the spirit of helpfulness, then move on to another article.
Secondly, there certainly must be better ways to handle the stress of FAC, and particularly problems with a single editor than demanding they be put on FAC topic ban. This seems to be an issue of self-governance and I will be honest in saying, though not limited to the editors at FAC, that it appears that self-governance seems to be at an all-time low lately. The moment an editor brings an article to FAC s/he must be confident in the material and writing, but not so arrogant to think it could not be improved. The community should not have to validate the efforts of an editor by agreeing with him or her in categorically denying the input of another editor. Have some faith in the system--the collective of editors--to be able to realize what should be fixed and what can be compromised. --Moni3 (talk) 12:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The first option was only to prohibit him from editing my FACs as they tend to be the problematic ones. And, as Slim Virgin has stated, a few of the problems Fowler had were with her fixes, and I agree that her changes did improve the page. So, there really wasn't anything about me favouring the page (especially when I was responsible for only half of it, and there were many, many copyeditors since my original wording). I respond merely as someone who has taught grammar, rhetoric, and linguistics. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
there are many of us here who teach grammar, rhetoric and linguistics. Ottava, please chill on this. I'm reluctant to comment on any of your FACs because your reputation precedes you, and I don't have time for arguing. When I write something I hope it will be useful to someone. My goal is not to show off my erudition, but to provide something usable, intelligible, accurate (verifiably so), and worthwhile for someone to read. I don't want to spend my wiki-time arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
