| Revision as of 21:36, 24 September 2009 editDrmies (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators406,555 editsm Reverted edits by 75.75.110.91 (talk) to last version by Zzuuzz← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:41, 24 September 2009 edit undo75.75.110.91 (talk) I think wiki is Obama loving puusy fagNext edit → | ||
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Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. Obama sucks and he is the worst president ever. | |||
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| == he is not "first" "african american" == | |||
| His father from Kenya (Africa) and his mother is from Kansas (United States of America); how much more African-American can one get? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| his mother is 100% white, he has 50% white blood. so he is not! if he is black, then he is also white. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Please read FAQ question number 2. Simply put we say what the sources say and the vast majority of main stream reliable sources call him African American and thus we refer to him in the lead as that. However, if you go down a little bit, the article does discuss his heritage. ] (]) 13:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Any source which ignores half a person's heritage (not to mention almost his entire upbringing and every positive influence on his life) is not 'reliable', at least not on the subject of race. Commercial biases have too much effect on their work. Lest we forget that some other presidents (especially ] have also had distant African ancestry. ]'s intro mentions both his heritage and perception of it (also being mixed-race in an almost-entirely-white domain), and I really don't understand why Obama's intro is not worded similarly.--] (]) 13:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Please read ] before making any edits removing "black" or "African-American" from the article. ] 13:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| I've seen this popping up around the internets (I know, right?), and I was curious if it's been addressed on the talk page before: | |||
| Basically the claim is that 5 other United States Presidents have had African ancestry (this author only names four of them); any thoughts? ] (]) 21:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :It's quite possible that that's so, but there are no ] asserting it. If my late Mom's really sloppy geneology is right, my family in America dates to the 1660s. Hard to imagine no African-American or Native American in the woodpile all those centuries. ] (]) 21:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well wait a sec, there are some sources which may or may not be reliable, but I can't even link to them here because they're all banned. Google it, thought, and you'll see some of the sources are not "biased". To me the question is not one of reliability of sources, but one of verifiability of claims. ] (]) 00:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Newspapers, TV, magazines, etc. etc. heralded our "first African American President" again and again on and after the election. Per one-drop rules or whatever, other Presidents may be technically considered AA as well, who knows? But our the overwhelmingly vast majority of RS's haven't commented about that (and have commented the opposite); so for us to do so would be UNDUE. cheers, --] | ] 00:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think the most important point that the FAQ answer makes is that anyone can work out the details by reading the article. However, it is an interesting point for discussion and I think improvements can be made, at least to the FAQ answer. For example, is the fact that "Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black" really relevant? I mean, we know, as a scientific fact, that Obama has as much caucasian as Kenyan heritage, and we have plenty of reliable sources for this; it's even stated in the rest of the article. If Obama or the media simply use the "black", it is either for rhetoric or for brevity, so does it really count as a "reliable source"? I personally would suggest saying the he is the first "non-white" President, as this is the broadest term that is still scientifically accurate. However, I have another question: Why not omit mentioning his skin colour at all? We will only know that we have moved beyond racism when skin colour is no longer mentioned any more than eye colour or hair colour.] (]) 02:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"Scientific accuracy" actually has little bearing on questions of race. It's widely agreed that racial categories are socially constructed, so while Obama (and other persons with one black and one white parent) is routinely identified as "black" in the United States, that would not necessarily be the case in any number of other societies. Thus to say that he is "non-white" is actually ''not'' "scientifically" accurate—he is partially of European ancestry—rather it is accurate only inasmuch as the U.S. has a "one drop" rule with respect to "blackness" dating back to slavery. So by saying he is "non-white" we would already be going by cultural norms, not hard science. The fact is, however, that most source (academic, newspapers, polls, TV programs, Obama himself) refer to him as "black" or "African American"—''not'' as "non-white." In deciding whether or how to label a person in terms of their race, the only guide we really have are the norms of the given society, which are actually well reflected in newspapers and the like. It's for this very reason that we would not omit his "skin color", simply because reliable sources have incessantly (as in thousands or hundreds of thousands of times) mentioned his race and the fact that he is the "first black president." Obviously the goal of this or any other wiki article is not to move beyond racism (which we're pretty far away from anyway, unfortunately) but to accurately reflect what reliable sources say about a given topic. In this case it's pretty clear that we need to mention Obama's race and also pretty clear what "race" he is generally considered to be, at least in the United States. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 03:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There are no reliable sources that call Barack Obama an African America, for the simple fact that he isn't one. It's amazing how few people actually understand wikipedia policies, even though they are manifestly not complicated. "Misplaced Pages articles should rely primarily on reliable, third-party, published sources (although reliable self-published sources are allowable in some situations - see below). Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are '''generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.''' I argue that most newspapers do not qualify as being regarded as generally trustworthy when it comes to identification of race. Ergo this issue is 100% open, and the unverified "fact" that Mr Obama is African American should be removed. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :I think Bigtimepeace makes a good point: "race" is a cultural definition in this sense rather than a scientific one. I don't think there are any cultures that would refer to Barack Obama as "white", so therefore "non-white" is a good unbaiased way to describe him. On the other hand "African American" is a term which is used to describe him only by the sources that you mentioned, and is therefore biased. However, I agree that "non-white" sounds a bit silly, so why not just drop mentioning his skin colour as much as possible? Somewhere in the article it needs to be mentioned that "the election of Obama was highly significant to many people as symbolic of the historical journey of the African American people" or something better worded to that effect, but it really only needs to be mentioned in this way; there is no need to actually state whether he is African American or not, especially not in the first sentence of the article. As the FAQ states, people can discover his ethnic origins by reading the first section of the article about his parents.] (]) 04:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure what you mean by "only", as in "only by the sources that you mentioned," but Obama is described as African American by virtually every reliable source we can think of including, not incidentally, himself. There are very few reliable sources which ''don't'' describe him as black or African American, so I don't understand the basis for your "bias" claim. Describing him as "non-white" would be the acme of bias, precisely because he is very rarely described that way—you personally don't think it's biased but that's not really relevant. | |||
| ::There has to this point been a pretty strong consensus that it is appropriate to identify him as an African American in the lead of the article, just as ] is identified as the first Catholic president of the U.S. (not in the first sentence but in the intro), as ] is identified as the first female Prime Minister of Pakistan, and as ] is identified as Bolivia's "first fully indigenous head of state in the 470 years since the Spanish Conquest." The simple fact is that all of these heads of state broke down extremely significant barriers in their respective countries when they came to power, and as such it makes a great deal of sense for us to mention that fact prominently in the leads of those articles. For what it's worth, Britannica apparently refers to Obama as the "first African American president" in the intro to their article as well, so I think we're on pretty solid ground here. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 05:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
| I've got an idea: why not use computer graphics programs to correctly identify the range of skin color the President traverses and we can identify him as "#000000 to #010101" (or whatever it would be) etc. We can do this for everyone with a bio article and then we don't have to identify anyone by subjective opinions of which racial construct people want to put them in. We could say Michael Jackson was #000000 as a child but by the time of death was #FDEEF4. Let's make Misplaced Pages objective. ] (]) 16:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't get it, 007. | |||
| So if the people choose to say that Lincoln is "black" then are we supposed to assume he is (even though all evidence says otherwise)? People aren't to be trusted. Should we make this article about cats because of popular vote or vandalise a page? I think not. But since he is 50% "african american" and 50% "caucasian" one can base it on popular vote. If he was 75% white it would be much different. Since he is 50% each, but his appearance is more of an "African american" we can say that he is. Appearance is everything after all when it comes to the peoples "view". and based on popular vote I can say he is the "first" "African american".--] (]) 21:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| I thought the articles on Misplaced Pages were only supposed to contain facts, not feelings. Just because someone considers themself closer to one race than the other doesn't make it a fact. My Labradoodle may consider himself more Labrador Retriever than Poodle, but you can't get the AKC to register him as one. Besides, according to the Misplaced Pages's article on ], ] has included Kenya in the extents of the Caucasian race. This means that Obama is technically 100% Caucasian no matter what his skin color is. On the other hand, since all humans originally came from Africa, then we could also say that every human in the U.S. is African American. Since I am a native of America, decended from Europeans that originally came from Arica, I consider myself Native-European-African American. The only way to stop the arguments is to get rid of any mention of race when we talk about someone's accomplishments. I'm tired of hearing first African American this or first Hispanic that. | |||
| :Actually, we cover what a clear fact that reliable sources say and the vast majority call him Africian Americain. It is not our job to contrdict reiable source because we don't like what they say. Removing mention of his race is far more based on feelings that accuratly reporting reliable soucres using the term Africian Americian. --] (]) 23:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Consensus on race == | |||
| Some people have mentioned that he refers to himself as a African American. If that counts as a reliable source, then can someone put it up as a citation in the article (citation number: 127), please? Thanks. Also, there are 4 citations given to justify the term "African American" but only one of them actually uses the term. The other three say "black", so we could just delete those three, or refer to him as "black" instead; I don't really care either way. For the introduction, what do you guys think about something like "the election of Obama was highly significant to many people, as it was considered "the last racial barrier in American politics"" as the second sentence of the article (that's how the New York times puts it). Obviously we could word it better, but that way we would get consensus on it, because it doesn't actually make a claim about his race, so no one can object that it is not a verifiable fact.] (]) 13:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :We could of course find citations for the proposition that Obama self-identifies as African-American, but we don't need to do that in the article because the article does not discuss his self-identification. We're just using that as an extra side-check here on the talk page. Perhaps another article could talk about this in more detail. You have a good point that we should probably mention why race was important to some people, although the Times quote is more evocative than exlanatory - there are plenty of other racial barriers in America. ] (]) 15:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I wasn't necessarily suggesting we put the citations in the article, I was just wondering if someone could point me to what he has actually said, because I doubt he would often make a statements like "I am black" and I doubt even more he would say "I am an African American". I expect he has referred to the fact that ''other people'' identify him as black, but that doesn't really count. I guess even if he has called himself African American explicitly, and if we don't consider it relevant enough for the article, then it shouldn't really be relevant in the determination of his race either. ] (]) 04:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I don't really think it is important what we state as his race. I think that in order to get consensus on this and avoid the discussion altogether, it would be good to replace the first sentence of the article -- | |||
| # Barack Hussein Obama II is the 44th and current President of the United States, the first African American to hold the office | |||
| -- with two separate sentences, such as these: | |||
| # Barack Hussein Obama II is the 44th and current President of the United States. His election overcame a major racial barrier in American politics, and was highly significant to many people, because previously the office had been held only by white men. | |||
| This includes some significant extra information, and his race is no longer a matter for dispute. ] (]) 04:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree that it's more precise and a good try, but it sidesteps the issue of great importance to many people, that Obama is the first black (per the prevailing norms and definitions of the time in the United States) president. It is being black, not just being non-white. We have obviously never had an Asian-American president, a Hispanic president, or a Native American president (though some probably had some ancestry there). What is important to people is not that Obama is the first black to hold the office in some scientific or technical sense, but that this particular racial barrier has been overcome. There are still plenty of other barriers to cross. ] (]) 05:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::To me those all seem like good reasons for choosing the second rather than the first. If there had already been a Hispanic president and an Asian president then his election would not have been significant to a smaller group of people. It states that he specifically as overcome one specific barrier. The second case also states explicitly that this is important to many people, rather than just mentioning his race as if it were an arbitrary fact, though some people even dispute the fact. I think the second option is more precise, more comprehensive. I ''thought'' it would also be more likely to reach a consensus, because it doesn't actually state anything disputable, but it seems like this is such a touchy subject that we not going to get consensus anyway, so I'll just leave it. ] (]) 06:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Who is first president of Muslim Heritage? == | |||
| Is there any other president who has has parents or stepparents or ancestors who were muslim? Wouldn't it be worth noting?? 16:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Good point... I don't know the answer. Probably if you look back many generations there are other presidents who have very distant ancestors, but Obama would be the first one who has Muslims in the closer family. He has so many firsts, and with only 45 (?) presidents, every one of them is first at something, so we probably stick with the ones that are most noteworthy. That one might be worth mentioning in an article more closely focused Obama's heritage. There is a "family of" article, where it might go. There is a "public image" article that mentions the untrue rumors of Obama himself being Muslim. ] (]) 20:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are we counting Sons-in-law? That would be Ali. Or did you mean US presidents? ;) ] (]) 07:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::There have only ben 43 presidents... ] (]) 00:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == "Protestant?" == | |||
| Real quick question here. Why was his religious affiliation on the infobar changed from Christian to protestant? It has said "Christian" for months now and to change it to Protestant is a bit odd. He resigned from the UCC a while back and really doesn't have any current affiliations with Protestantism. I think "Christian" sufficed well enough because he is indeed Christian but is no longer Protestant. Why the sudden change? Even the sources say "Christian." Thanks. Assume Good Faith. No offense intended! ] (]) 23:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know and don't much care, but I thought a simple division within Christianity was: orthodox, catholic, protestant, and fringe. My vague impression is that he was somewhere in the third of these. Maybe some editor thought that Protestantism was accurate (even if there's no formal affiliation) and a bit more informative than the blanket term Christianity. -- ] (]) 00:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Note that I don't believe Mormons consider themselves Protestant, since they come from a different tradition, and I'm sure they would object to being called "fringe". ] (]) 23:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank goodness Obama's not a Mormon, then, huh? Can you imagine the public outcry there would be? That's the last thing we need at this page. ] (]) 01:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't care much either way as this all seems awfully pedantic, but does one stop being Protestant the moment one leaves a Protestant church? ] (]) 00:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Changed "regime" to "administration" == | |||
| {{hat|Closing - resolved}} | |||
| It's bad to call it "regime" so I have changed it to "administration". Otherwise, we could start seeing it referred to as the "Obama junta" or "Obama regime". Then it could degenerate to the "wicked, imperialist Obama junta" or the "glorious and wise Obama leadership". We would then start sounding like Radio Havana Misplaced Pages branch. They call enemies by silly names and friends by grandiose names. ] (]) 01:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Blame silly conservatrolls, not us. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 02:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Unfortunately, the right wing is not the bad apple in this case. Someone called the Bush Administration the regime so it is a leftist who is at fault. Let's write well, not attack the side we don't like. ] (]) 00:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wow, anything differing from what appears to be the "acceptable viewpoint" here is quickly hidden and tucked away in a neat little pink box and archived. However, unhelpful, irrelevant attacks such as this one, are allowed to stand for the better part of a week. Worst part is I imagine if it went in the other direction, there would be immediate action taken against the attacking party. Disgusting. ] (]) 08:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Administration" is the commonly accepted term for a government led by a U.S. president. "Regime" implies illegitimacy. We can't be responsible for what birthers and others put in the article for the bare minutes until they are reverted.--] (]) 08:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was there for a long time, not minutes. There are also other biased areas in the article but less clear cut. ] (]) 00:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, I was referring to {{User|Sceptre}} using the term "conservatrolls" to describe editors that differ from his viewpoint, not the term "regime". Sorry if I was not clear. ] (]) 07:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == Out-of-date OGG Sound Article == | |||
| Just wanted to point out that the OGG recorded for this article is out of date, stating that President Obama is still the Senator. I believe it to be recorded before he was elected president. Any chance of updating? ] (]) 06:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Edit: Yep, it's dated Sep. 3, 2008. ] (]) 06:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Certified Copy of Kenyan Birth Certificate == | |||
| {{hat|Nothing to see here, check Q5 of the FAQ at the top of the page. ]<small> (]·])</small> 22:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)}} | |||
| If you consult the following link: http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/obama-certified-copy-of-registration-of-birth-in-kenya.htm | |||
| you will find an image of a Certified Copy of a Kenyan birth certificate, complete with a Kenyan government seal, names, ages and birthplaces of both parents, the correct birth name of the child Barack Hussein Obama II, the hospital of birth in Kenya, and the public records "Book and "Page" that the original was filed. This story was covered in the Press, including the Orange County Register, http://www.ocregister.com/articles/taitz-document-president-2517230-copy-obama. Moreover, a photocopy of this document was filed in evidence in Federal court under a motion seeking the court to validate it's authenticity. | |||
| The wikipedia editors have claimed this story as "insignificant". However, considering Obama solicited -- via interstate commerce -- and spent 745.7 million dollars in donations for just the 2008 Federal election cycle, should the Kenyan birth be verified, it would amount to one of the largest R.I.C.O cases in history. (c.f. http://www.fec.gov/press/press2009/20090608PresStat.shtml) | |||
| The claim that Obama's mother is sufficient for natural citizenship is not true either. There are two points here: one RE: the mother's residency history and Obama's residency when application was made -- if it ever were made -- to receive national citizenship. http://en.wikipedia.org/United_States_nationality_law#Through_birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen | |||
| At the time of birth, his mother was only 18, and US law required that she must have been a continuous resident of the US for at least the last 5 of the 10 years subsequent to her 14th birthday. (That law is now 5 years.) Delivering a baby in Kenya or living in Kenya during the prenatal period or post natal recovery period or even visiting the future in laws in Kenya could be events to disqualify grandfathering her child's natural citizenship. The same point definitely applies with his mother's marriage and emigration to Indonesia. | |||
| So far there's a claim that Obama has himself or vis a vis the Federal Government caused over 2 million in preventing any court from making a finding as to any birth certificate. Again, if a fraud is here, it would fall under R.I.C.O, but more directly as a crime against the USA. | |||
| ] (]) 22:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == Ethnicity in first sentence == | |||
| Per ], Obama's ethnicity does not belong in the introductory sentence. This has been discussed before, for instance , where it was decided that discussing his ethnicity after the introductory sentence was better. The most recent doesn't contain it in the first sentence.--] ]/] 20:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Read it again: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening '''unless it is relevant to the subject's notability'''." I think being the first ethnic-minority president is ''very'' notable. It would be the same if Hilary won the presidency (God help us). ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 22:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree with your comment. However, I respectfully note that the parenthetical clause in your comment, "It would be the same if Hilary won the presidency ''(God help us)''.", does not add to the discussion of the article (i.e., ]). Regards, and thanks, --] (]) 23:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was jokingly referring to Hilary's reputation among comedians for henpecking her husband, not for any real reason. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 00:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I also agree (not about the Hilary thing), which is why I reverted the change the first time. ] (]) 23:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Obviously Obama's ethnicity is notable and should be included in the lede. It is currently in the very next sentence, (as it was from at least the time of the above-linked discussion last December until recently). But to be included in the very first sentence, as if being the "black President" was equally important as being president in the first place, is overreaching, and I would think somewhat patronizing. Almost no other article on a U.S. president says anything other than the fact that they were president and when they served. JFK is not listed as the "35 president of the United States, and the first Catholic elected to the office", though this was also very groundbreaking.--] ]/] 13:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::JFK is not listed as the "...the first Catholic elected to the office". I agree that this is very important, and think that the article ''should'' be updated to note this. --] (]) | |||
| :::::No, I removed the reference to Kennedy's religion (which is the same as mine) as being inappropriate for the lead; a subsequent editor restored it in a more subtle, more suitable way. This article should follow the example of the JFK article. <b>]</b> ] 18:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The ] article lede says "Kennedy is the first and only Catholic president,". --] (]) 20:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| (outdent) is what it said before I deleted it; even at that, it's not in the first paragraph of the lead, and I still don't believe it belongs in the lead at all. | |||
| In all fairness, if you go back a few months in this article, you'll see that some attempt was made to work in Obama's ethnicity without the blatant ] in , for example. <b>]</b> ] 20:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't view the placement of text within the lede (1st paragraph vs. a subsequent one) as being significant. The text in both articles seems fine to me. --] (]) 20:54, 17 September 2009 ( UTC) | |||
| ::4wajzkd02, the issue here is not whether Obama's ethnicity belongs in the lede, the issue is whether it belongs in the first sentence. I think most everyone can agree it should be mentioned in the lede, but not everyone agrees it should go in the first sentence, so discussing it later in the lede is a good compromise.--] ]/] 12:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand the issue. I think the "the first sentence" of the lede versus "later in the lede" is a difference without a distinction, and a waste of time and resources. Discuss away, however. I've provided my point of view. Cheers, --] (]) 16:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I disagree that his ethnicity belongs in the lead at all, because it's covered accurately in the body of the article. However, since it looks like it's going to stay, it should be moved down a bit in accordance with it's importance: name, birth, attainment of Presidency should all go in first paragraph; his ethnicity - a secondary, cultural characteristic - can be covered later in the lead, if at all. <b>]</b> ] 16:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The sources tend to indicate that his being African-American, and the fact of his being the first, are of great (one could say monumental) importance in American politics. It's not really a question of whether one agrees or not. In a perfect world it would not be a big deal, and people would see him simply as the President... or could mention race as an interesting cultural characteristic like being left-handed or a basketball fan. But the world is not perfect, and his being the first black president of America represents a historical shift in race relations. Perhaps ten years from now societal mores will change and it will not figure so prominently. Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedia is a product of its times, and inasmuch as it draws on sources with cultural biases, it is a product of the various cultures that produce the sources it cites. It's not practical to try to achieve objectivity through logical analysis - that's also a form of bias. ] (]) 20:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Perhaps FAQ Q2 can be updated when this discussion is closed. --] (]) 17:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Although I don't have a personal opinion exactly where in the lede Obama's race should first be mentioned, I suggest no major change to the FAQ or lede at this time. The FAQ reflects a stable consensus reached among dozens and probably hundreds of editors over the course of a couple years of editing. Nothing has changed since the last few times we had that discussion, although I think it's entirely possible that his race will become a less prominent issue in current politics and in hindsight once people grow accustomed to the fact and as he generates a longer trail of actions and issues as president. - ] (]) 18:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Obama, Honduras and Israel == | |||
| {{hat|Closing - the subject discussion belongs at ], not here (although he source quoted fails ])}} | |||
| This site: ] has an article from ]. In this article we can read:"President Obama's foreign policy has little regard for democracy". ] (]) 14:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)agre22 | |||
| Obama has also clearly favored Palestine to Israel a number of times. He also backed the former president of Honduras, who was trying to seek reelection even though the constitution prohibits him to do so. He then came out against the leader of the "coup", who just wanted to keep his countries constitution intact. Again though, apparently its not right to point out things that Obama has done that may have been wrong. ] (]) 16:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :The issue isn't that "its not right to point out things..." but that '''you''' find some ] that say this. Talk is cheap and political talk is some of the cheapest talk there is so for politics, and especially for such a high-profile figure, we really do need something more than blogs and op-ed's. ] (]) 17:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == Seriously == | |||
| {{hat|Closing this per ] and ]}} | |||
| Seriously, if John McCain, Rush Limbaugh, and George Bush have controversy/criticism sections, i dont see how Obama shouldnt. I mean the excuse up there that it shows a "poorly written article" actually made me laugh. I fail to see how pointing out that a man actually has flaws, and people disagree, is distasteful. If you guys are either too lazy, or just cant come to grips with people talking down about our president, i would be happy to write a section, all with citations, to be submitted. If not, be sure i will create one every single day if thats what it takes. The people, who elected the man in the first place, have a right to hear the other side. You cant pin it on racism when half the whites who voted for him are now against him. SO please, my email is listed, email me back and let me know why seriously he is the only person on wiki that cant be criticized. ] (]) 16:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Seriously, none of them do. It's a sign of a bad article. In all three articles, there is no controversy/criticism section, which you would know if you'd checked. The closest to one is a list of notably controversial events on Rush Limbaugh's show. --<font color="green">]</font>] 18:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Seriously? You couldn't even bother to look at any of the articles you mention to first discover that they don't have criticism/controversy sections? I'm sorry, but I just find that baffling that you wouldn't even check to see if Bush Sr., Bush Jr. or McCain have such a section. And no they don't. Rush Limbaugh does have the notable controversy section for his show, but frankly that is what the man does for a living. He's a political shock jock and creating controversy is his career, so having a section for notable instances makes more sense. I still think that should be integrated in with the rest of the material on him, but it isn't as off putting as it would be on a former or the current president. It has nothing to do with any accusations of racism, admiration for the man, or anything like that. Even though you have revealed your ignorance and made yourself look silly, I'll explain wikipedia's position to the best of my understanding. | |||
| ::Good writing synthesizes information from a wide range of sources. A well written biography or encyclopedia entry about someone, which is what this article is, should not only synthesize all the complex information out there on a subject but it should also create a coherent, flowing narrative. The kind of section you are talking about destroys synthesis by keeping related information arbitrarily separated and fragmented. It ruins the flow and coherent narrative of an article by breaking the logical, natural linear progression of the narrative and jumps to this other thing that has its own structure and is being looked out completely out of context of the rest of the rest of the information. It's jarring, it's confusing and it's just sloppy writing. The criticisms and controversies will undoubteledly have contextual interplay with other events and other notable decisions so talking about all of it separately is just terrible structure. Imagine if I gave you flour, raw eggs, cocoa beans, butter, vanila extract, and sugar packets and said 'what this is the same as chocolate chip cookies right.' | |||
| ::Of course critiques of Obama can be included in Misplaced Pages. Cry about it's all so liberal but there is nothing stopping notable information that could be seen as negative perpectives from entering in. However this particular article is about his overall life not just his presidency. So most of the criticisms and controversies are not notable in terms of his overall life. Most of the controversies so far have been really small and short lived so far so no they don't belong here. They may belong in the article about his presidency but it depends on what it is, how notable it is, how well sourced it is, etc. Articles about Obama will have the same problem that all current subjects have, the likelihood of recentism. With our 24 hour news sources taking every last flare up story into something that looks far more significant that is or will be, it's hard to tell what items will truly be notable in a week, month, or year. | |||
| ::Take the police officer thing, so many people wanted to add that, they thought this will be huge, it will dog him forever, and the story just absolutely died a week later. They had a beer, apologies were said, everyone moved on. So keep in mind what seems like a big deal may not be so it may not be notable and since you hate the man, chances are you are going to try make significance out of many insignificant dismissible faux controversies. The same was true of George W. Bush, and even though I didn't personally like him I still defended keeping many things out that those who hated him wanted in because most of the time things have a very short shelf life and are not as important as they first seem. Anyway I've rambled on long enough for someone who clearly has no respect for others and isn't interested in letting the truth get in the way of his rants. | |||
| Utter garbage. Seriously, what criticism exist apart from speculation (Birther crap) and the idiotic accusations by ultra-conservatives about some sort of National socialism…stuff. What critical analysis of Bush exists? The illegal war in Iraq? The fact he is partly responsible due to his dire fiscal policies that got America into the current mess? What criticism of Obama are you talking about apart from policies that haven’t even been put through yet (Healthcare) or myth and speculation? Oh and sign your posts and stop trolling.--] (]) 17:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == I Agree With The Above.... == | |||
| {{hat|Closing this per ] and ]}} | |||
| LOOK AT THIS ARTICLE!!! Not a single word of criticism in one of the longest articles on Misplaced Pages about one of the most well-known people in the world! Misplaced Pages this is OUTRAGEOUS, DISGUSTING and UTTERLY ABSURD!!!! Pull your liberal heads out of your asses and put in a criticism section for Obama just like you have for every conservative person you've ever created one for. You make me want to vomit. ] (]) 16:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)Martin | |||
| :There's an FAQ section about this near the top of this page. There is no specific section labeled "criticism" or "controversy" in any of the ] ] ] ], although Clinton does have two sub-sections which summarize sub-articles. <small><span style="padding:2px;border:1px solid #000000">] {{!}} ]</span></small> 16:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Ditto for ] ] ]; we have to go back 8 presidents to ] to find a ''sub''-section labeled ], and it's only three paragraphs long. All of the articles in question mention some form of the word "critic" and/or "controversy", but the concepts are integrated into the article. | |||
| :In addition, of the nine presidential articles from LBJ to Obama, ] ] ] are ], ] ] ], and ] ] previously good articles. That covers five Republicans and four Democrats. | |||
| :Please note that this talk page is not a forum regarding the subject of the article, and if there is some question as to how this article is written, it has nothing to do with how similar persons have been written about on Misplaced Pages. If there is a specific criticism or controversy you feel should be addressed, please refer to it directly and then a discussion can be had regarding its inclusion in the article, if it isn't already. | |||
| :If, after this analysis, you still feel Misplaced Pages makes you want to ], I recommend you step away from the ] first. <small><span style="padding:2px;border:1px solid #000000">] {{!}} ]</span></small> 17:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just as a quick addition to what you are saying Frank, the reason why generic criticisms or controversies section are disfavored on Wikipeia is because it's bad writing. It's sloppy and lazy to not integrate that information into the rest of the article. It's the same reason why if you type in George W. Bush and go to his wikipedia page you will also not see a controversy and criticism section. If you have a situation like with Nixon where there's a particularly big scandal then sure a sub-article and entry for Watergate makes sense. But just a section where you say so and so said this about Obama or such and such said this about Bush, that's really poor writing. | |||
| ::You don't see that in any reputable encyclopedia and you shouldn't see that here. If an article is about a particular debate, doing pro and con sections might make sense, but with a notable person there should be enough wealth of information about him or her that you could insert notable criticisms and controversies in with the rest of the information. Furthermore what you are really wanting to add to is the article about his presidency. That's where most of the criticisms and controversies should be integrated. Again not put into their own section, but integrated. It makes sense to put them there though because most of the controversies so far simply haven't been noteworthy enough to include in his biography. | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == Changes to a few footnotes == | |||
| One of the problems with articles such as this is that the need to cite everything makes the main page a mess. There's a new citation option (see ]) which allows the bulk of the referencing to be done in the referencing section. In addition, I've found that one can include multiple citations in a single footnote, thereby reducing the need for consecutive footnotes int he main text. | |||
| I've tried this in two instance, first the three citations in the first cited paragraph referencing Kansas. Formerly footnotes 8,9,and 10, it is now one footnote with three citations. | |||
| Second, in the state legislator section, I looked at the footnotes relating to the primary vote, formerly two separate footnotes with a total of seven citations, and made it into a single footnote. | |||
| Before, the main text included this mess: | |||
| {{Collapse top|original citations for one point}} | |||
| <nowiki><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/ilh.htm |title=Federal Elections 2000: U.S. House Results - Illinois |publisher=] |accessdate=April 24, 2008}}. See also: {{cite web|url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14502364|title=Obama's Loss May Have Aided White House Bid}} and {{cite news |first=Janny |last=Scott |title=A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama |date=September 9, 2007 |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html |work=The New York Times |accessdate=April 20, 2008}}</ref><ref name=McClelland20070212>{{cite news |first=Edward |last=McClelland |title=How Obama Learned to Be a Natural |date=February 12, 2007 |url=http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/12/obama_natural/ |work=Salon |accessdate=April 20, 2008}} See also: {{cite news |first=Richard |last=Wolffe |coauthors=Daren Briscoe |title=Across the Divide |date=July 16, 2007 |work=MSNBC |url=http://www.newsweek.com/id/33156 |work=Newsweek |accessdate=April 20, 2008}} {{cite news |first=Scott |last=Helman |title=Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb |date=October 12, 2007 |url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/12/early_defeat_launched_a_rapid_political_climb/ |work=Boston Globe |accessdate=April 20, 2008}} and {{cite news|url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-10-24-3157940059_x.htm 24, 2007-3157940059_x.htm|title=Obama learned from failed Congress run |work=USA Today |author=Wills, Christopher|date=October 24, 2007 |accessdate=September 20, 2008}}</ref></nowiki> | |||
| {{Collapse bottom}} | |||
| While it now contains: | |||
| <nowiki><ref name="Democratic primary"></nowiki> | |||
| Much easier to read. | |||
| Let me know if you have objections to the approach. | |||
| One downside is that I don't see an obvious way to combine unnamed refs with named refs in a single footnote, so I won't attempt to do that.--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">]]</font> 19:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :What the hell are you doing constructively contributing to the article and then collegially explaining your edits on the talk page here?! Can't you see that's not the way people do things around here?! | |||
| :Just kidding. It's refreshing to find a new editor arriving with something well thought-out that makes everybody's work easier. It seems like your changes will make it infinitely easier to view a section of readable text in the edit window and to scan for the text you mean to be editing. As for me, I welcome you to continue these edits and I thank you. ] (]) 00:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for the response, and sorry about not fitting in with the usual climate :) I'll try to tackle a few other examples over the next few days—it makes a modest improvement to the viewing experience for readers, but a meaningful improvement for editors. It's a challenge finding the text in the sea of reference material. (Not a bad thing, the usual articles I patrol are sorely needing of more references).--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">]]</font> 12:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| <- So far, I've moved 18K of reference material out of the main text and in to the reference section, making it a little easier to wade through the material. Will continue, think I've done it all OK, but let me know if you see any mistakes. | |||
| :So far everything looks good. As these changes are not controversial and are not really removing important refs you won't see a problem here. The main issue that the edit wars happen here are over controversial and/or POV editing. Your stuff is actually improving the article while keeping the content the same. Good stuff and keep it up. ] (]) 20:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK done first pass. | |||
| ::*250 footnotes reduced to 211 (no citations removed) | |||
| ::*26K of footnote material moved out of the main text into the reference area, making the main text easier to navigate. | |||
| ::There still are some assertions with multiple footnotes, but these are footnotes used more than once, so I don't see how to easily reduce the number of footnotes showing in the text. | |||
| ::It is also possible to take the single footnotes and convert to the new style, which will also move more material out of the main text and into the reference section, but there is less "bang for the buck" compared to the multiple cited footnotes, although I note some "single footnotes" have multiple citations, so they may be worth tackling. Perhaps later, now I'll take a bit of a break.--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">]]</font> 01:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Never Took Calculus == | |||
| {{hat|Closing this per ] and ]}} | |||
| I was watching his speech to community college where he admitted to never taking calculus... I think in that should be mentioned in his educational pedigree. How do you go through high school, let alone college, avoiding upper-level mathematics? ] (]) 18:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :How about by planning in advance for a career in law? We don't need to list everything he ''hasn't'' done. If he, or some reliable source, starts making a big deal out of it, then it might be worth putting in the article, but it's not at all uncommon for people his age in the United States to have not taken a class in calculus, especially if the undergraduate degree is not math- or science-related. (Whether that is advisable or not is a separate question, and most definitely beyond the scope of this article.) <small><span style="padding:2px;border:1px solid #000000">] {{!}} ]</span></small> 18:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
Revision as of 21:41, 24 September 2009
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