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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sarah Palin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Parental consent for abortion

I had thought that this was a settled issue, but shouldn't the summary of Palin's political positions include a brief mention of her support for parental consent laws? Seems pretty pertinent and could be accomplished in 10 words or less; wouldn't even make the article 1 line longer. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 16:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, FC. One could even source it to her Facebook page.  :) Fcreid (talk) 18:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a pretty straightforward assertion. Here's another source. She also backed a voter initiative that requires parental notification. Kelly 18:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT)NON-FACEBOOK COMMENTS:)

The main article list is a very-condensed version of Political positions of Sarah Palin ... and the condensed version about Abortion ... is a small subset of the summary of the section on " Social and legal issues" which is summarized in the main article in the "social conservative" bullet:

NOTE: The sentence that mentions parental consent in Political positions of Sarah Palin reads:

I'm confused by the phrase: "but rebuffed religious conservatives who wanted to legislate restrictions on abortion even though she agreed with the bills"--do we know what her objections were to the proposed bills?Hickorybark (talk) 03:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

That was a quote from the article Political positions of Sarah Palin and the source is . Other questions on that should be raised on that talk page. Proofreader77 (talk) 03:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

BOTTOM LINE: If you want to work in "supports parental notification" into the sentences about abortion in the "social conservative" bullet, I do not suspect anyone will hang you ... The only thing to keep in mind is this is a brief of the subarticle, and the only things the subarticle says about it is part of one sentence. Proofreader77 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't describe it as attempting to "work it in", per se.. it's something that was long considered relevant to her stance (at least, the way I remember things) but seems to have been pared away or "abstracted out" for no obvious reason. With reference to the rest of the section, and the bullet point itself, I'd say it's more substantive and relevant than, say, labeling Palin a "social conservative" or mentioning her support for youth gun safety classes (which seems so tangential to 2nd amendment right for citizens to bear arms). Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

How sub-articles are summarized is of course a matter of editorial choice. "Working in" a mention to the existing summary is a simpler (less potentially contentious) matter than rewriting a larger swath of that summary. If you wish to rewrite the bullet that begins "social conservative," then you are certainly welcome to propose such a change — but that is a different topic than this one. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed addition of mention (A)

Not particularly felicitous, but bullet items for such things are frequently not. :) I am not arguing for or against insertion of this information—only making a suggestion for "working in" such mention, because I suggested such a solution. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I have edited it. The bullet point now reads: "She has referred to abortion as an "atrocity", and supports laws requiring parental consent for minors seeking an abortion, but opposes sanctions against women who obtain an abortion." I also plain-ified some words in the same bullet point which were inexplicably italicized. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 16:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

And I have adjusted it :) —moving that part to its own sentence. The short version of why is that inserting the legislative specific between two halves of the existing more general connected thought, is, shall we say, rhetorically messy (note: "and" after "atrocity"). For long version, see The last outlandishly long talk page response :) -- Proofreader77 (talk) 23:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Palin's latest on health care debate

1. Testimony for NY State Lesislature 2. Editorial in Wall Street Journal

Kelly 08:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Should we add to the article that Palin said that her death palen remark was "vindicated", or that she thinks it's "particularly disturbing" and "shocking"? Should we add what she said about vouchers and deregulating healthcare?Jimmuldrow (talk) 14:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

George Bush's comments

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Conclusion: no change required. QueenofBattle (talk) 22:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I revised the section title to make it, umm, just a bit more neutral. QueenofBattle (talk) 22:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

in 2009 goerge bush made off hand remarks about palin saying she was fit to be mayor of guam but not any national level these are particularly notable because of el presidente's status within the GOP (Flying monkey circus)

(1) I think you overstate Bush's standing (presumably you mean that, not "stance") in the GOP. (2) It's a claim in a book that Bush said something. Whose book? The book is this by Matthew Latimer. Why are they is he a credible witness? - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 13:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It's trival, and therefore not notable, and further therefore, not includable in Misplaced Pages. QueenofBattle (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

i disagree, it is not trivial when a member of the GOP is in the limelight and a former president rebukes her in a particularly flagrant way, that is telling, regardless of whether she was mayor of guam , aren't Georgie's words of note, he's pretty high up in the GOP hierarchy after all.

Every comment someone notable in politics is alleged to have made about Sarah Palin is not biographical. Perhaps the criteria for inclusion at Wikiquote has been met, but not here, unless and until his comment receives widespread coverage in the media (and, perhaps, unless and until he acknowledges it is actually an accurate representation of what he said). user:J aka justen (talk) 03:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we are done with this thread. We have at least three editors recognizing that this is not notable, and one (unknown) editor with an apparent axe to grind. QueenofBattle (talk) 22:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

image of house

File:Palinshouse.JPG.I was in Wasilla recently, and took my Scanoe out on Lake Lucille. I snapped this pic of Palin's house there, if anyone can find a useful place for it in the article, be my guest. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little troubled at the idea of publishing an image of Palin's house, although I have no idea if she has allowed other similar images to be published. If not, it seems an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 22:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Beeblebrox, but I really have to agree with Factchecker here. Zaereth (talk) 22:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Factchecker and Zaereth. This is the private residence of a private citizen; if it's not specifically prohibited by any policy (it may well be), we should exclude it as a discretionary mattter.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 23:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with both of you. Sarah Palin is a high-profile public figure and as a consequence she is subject to all manner of scrutiny, and she does not enjoy the same level of privacy as ordinary citizens. Furthermore, her address is a matter of public record, anyone can photograph her home. I fail to see what harm the photograph does. You'd have to come up with a better reason to exclude it (e.g. it may not be relevant to the article). =Axlq 01:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that it adds anything to the article. It's a nice shot, but there's really no reason to have a photo of the house. Unlike the Ted Stevens example, where the house became an issue due to the indictment over its remodeling, there is no controversy over the house, and it's neither iconic nor historically significant. As to the privacy issues, I don't really think that is a factor; her address is a matter of public record, and there is no significant invasion of privacy. It's not like Todd Palin is standing in front of the window in his boxers with a cup of coffee... Horologium (talk) 01:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Palin is not a private citizen. There is no reason to exclude the picture of the house. However, there's no good reason to include it either. As Horologium says, it hasn't been the topic of any controversy. I suggest we just leave it in the Commons until it's needed.   Will Beback  talk  02:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Will, she is either a private citizen or the current holder of a public office. Which public office do you mistakenly believe she occupies?- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 03:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Although it's splitting hairs, despite being a public figure, isn't Palin a private citizen once again now that she is not in public office? Isn't it incorrect to say that she is subject to "all manner" of scrutiny, except insofar as that scrutiny is applied by mainstream sources? Isn't it the case that her address was a matter of public record, but no longer is, even if the address has not changed in the meantime? In either case, isn't this is covered under WP:BLP#Well-known_public_figures ?

• "Exercise great care in using material from primary sources. Do not use, for example, public records that include personal details—such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses—or trial transcripts and other court records or public documents, unless a reliable secondary source has already cited them."

Shouldn't that guideline control in this case? Or, in other words, unless her address or a photo of the house have been published in a secondary source, shouldn't we exclude this even if a reason is proposed for including it? Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 03:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If Palin is just a private citizen why do we have so many articles about her? She is a high-profile individual who has repeatedly sought the public spotlight. As for the house, she's invited the media into the house which has been shown on national TV. Google has many images of it. Now that I look a little more, I see that there was some controvery over the house, concerning the source of some of the building materials. I don't follow these things as closely as some folks here, but yf that so-called scandal is included in this or another article then the picture would be a suitable illustration. Otherwise I don't see a reason to include it.   Will Beback  talk  05:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

All valid points. I'm fairly certain Beeblebrox' intent was to share an image (and its associated perspective) which others here might appreciate, from his canoe trip which others would likely be unable to enjoy for themselves. For that, I'm thankful. I agree with both points stated above, i.e. that Palin is indeed a very public figure despite her recent semi-retreat to private life, but also that we have no compelling reason or third-party RS that would justify inclusion of this image in this article. Fcreid (talk) 12:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• Well, the image is up for deletion now, but nobody has produced any specific policy it violates. I only knew what house to photograph because I've seen the house before when she gave a televised interview there, and again when she gave her resignation press conference in the back yard. A quick Google of "Palin's house" reveals that the house itself has in fact been the subject of coverage as there was some suspicion that it was paid for with kickbacks, although that investigation does not seem to have produced any results. In short, if it is not useful to the article, then don't use it, but it's just silly to suggest that I "invaded her privacy" when the house has been on national TV several times at her invitation and the photo was clearly taken from a public location. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it violates anything but, once again, I really don't see what including the picture would really add the article. Yes, it's a nice picture. But I don't see any inherent encyclopedic value to it in this context. The Squicks (talk) 21:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

My central objection rested on the question of whether the address or an image of the house has previously been published in secondary sources. The objection is now clearly moot, although I agree there's no obvious reason to include the image. It is a nice snap though :) Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

National news programs would count as reliable secondary sources.   Will Beback  talk  22:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that is why I said the issue "is now clearly moot"... or in other words, I was just taking the time to say that my main objection had been fully answered in the terms I was expecting. :) Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 01:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice shot, nice house. To bad Sarah is not on the dock waving. A shot of her house might have more meaning and possibility for acceptance if taken the next time there is an event.--Buster7 (talk) 23:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Yahoo E-mail account

So why isn't there even a sentence mentioning Palin's yahoo email? It seems to be a well sourced controversy.Smallman12q (talk) 12:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Because this article is written in a summary style, providing higher level overviews in this article and more detailed handling of specific events in subsidiary article, and the event you ask about is extremely trivial in the public life and fame of the article subject. For a full examination of the topic for which you are interested, please see Sarah Palin email hack. --Allen3  12:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Post-resignation activities

Should there be a section on her activities after resigning? She wrote an op-ed on health reform that created a lot of discussion; and she recently gave a speech in Hong Kong. Has she done other things? It's becoming clear that even after resigning from public office, she still has a public career of some sort. There might or might not yet be enough for a new section but if this continues there will be. It's worth thinking about now. Sbowers3 (talk) 18:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The semi-awkwardness here is that the period after resignation ... is covered in the section After the 2008 election (which also includes period before resignation and after resignation :) ... so (at the moment), the after resignation discussion goes in "After the 2008 election" section ... but there may well be better ways to structure/name this. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Adding (temp?) structuring subtopic "After resigning as governor of Alaska" to "After 2008 ..."

Added this to make it easy for new editors to know where to put such information— surely structuring titles should be discussed. (See my note re "semi-awkwardness" above.) Proofreader77 (talk) 19:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Palin/Facebook redux (Time to finally add this?)

(Asking this here to not delay archiving of large Facebook section higher up the page (now archived), but for more Palin/Facebook references expand collapsible box at reference section there. And, yes, this is inspired by question just above about covering after resignation.)

Just saw Politico piece via Reuters (from Monday) "Palin emerges as Facebook phenom."

Shall we now add a sentence or two? (quick poll/brief comments - not duplicate of long discussion)

• Yes. :) (I think I've said enough.:) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Yes. I also think it worth tracking (not mentioning yet) that she is not appearing in events that the media is allowed access to. If she continues barring the press from her speaking engagements, I believe this must be mentioned. Manticore55 (talk) 21:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

re: "Yes. ... tracking (not mentioning yet)" — So that's a No to mentioning Facebook now. (Yes?) Proofreader77 (talk) 22:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• I was against the original proposal to mention SP's Facebook posts, but now that it has been given a context by a major news service I would certainly consider it depending on the proposed text and its context in the article. At some we will want to begin a post resignation section of this BLP and Facebook might be something mentioned.-- — Kbob • Talk • 00:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The Hong Kong speech and the Facebook excerpt ...

(going forward watch for coverage of speeches+FB)

Palin chooses to excerpt the speech on Facebook, beginning here:

(The Washington Post's blog The Swamp has already highlighted via title "Ex-Gov Palin: 'Common-sense conservative'" not replicating her choice of typology.) I mention this now as we consider how to mention Facebook in the article—which would include the "death panels" transmission (sans speech) and aftermath (including the removal of end-of-life counseling from the proposed bill, and the president's emphatic "a lie plain and simple" at the joint session and Palin's Facebook response)—notwithstanding the fact that story has been framed as a "political position" rather than what it is, a political action in her narrative ... and going forward how her public speeches and their Facebook component may be her standard form of action in the public debate.

Not to get the cart before the horse, of course:) ... but (public private) citizen Palin's FIRST action of participation in public debate was via Facebook (to much ado and noted effect including presidential response). That may be the only time her Facebook page has that much impact—but going forward we should be sure to notice if the secondary sources are mentioning her Facebook page (as they clearly did in the context of "death panels").

From a purely information point of view, the fact Palin capitalizes "Common Sense Conservative" tells us something that just hearing her saying the words doesn't. We must obviously wait for the media to tell us that before we repeat it, but we should be observant regarding such coverage of how the the two transmission channels my interact/combine.

And yes, Palin mentioned Facebook in the speech according to a fellow speaker at the event:

And, amusingly,

BOTTOM LINE Let's adjust our thoughts to allow addressing this "phenomena" :) (or the simple fact of her noted use of it). Proofreader77 (talk) 19:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to Remove "Approval Ratings" chart

I never saw the need for a blow by blow, ongoing, over the top, chart of Palins' approval ratings and now that she is no longer Gov, I feel even more so. Can't we remove the chart and replace it with a summary of her approval ratings during her brief term as Governor? what say ye, oh wise editors of Wiki?-- — Kbob • Talk • 00:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree. An encyclopedia should be written in summary style anyway and not focused on day by day accounts. Zaereth (talk) 01:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree NOTE: See tracking charts of public opinion for George Bush, and Bill Clinton. Public perception of job performance in public office is important information, and that kind of information/data should be easy to peruse. While Palin is was not president (and I have not checked for such graphics in lower offices), her public popularity in Alaska was much publicized when nominated for vice president. While I understand it clearly makes visible the fall from the heights of near-universal approval, such is the nature of such data.... But I will continue to ponder this a bit longer. Proofreader77 (talk) 16:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

FOLLOW UP/NOTE: This table comes from the article Public image of Sarah_Palin (which has a summary section at the bottom of Sarah Palin) which has a link to that article. Also note that Governorship of Sarah Palin does not have this table (although one would think it would go there). BOTTOM LINE: The information should be somewhere ... whether it is where it ought to be is open to question. :) Perhaps it should be moved out of Public image of Sarah Palin and into the Governorship of Sarah Palin article ... and then removed from Sarah Palin. lol (I said I was still pondering ... I do not lie ... well, certainly not plainly and simply. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 00:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Good comments Proof. Just to clarify I feel that approval ratings are a relevant topic to the article and should be included. What I am objecting to is the format. I welcome the idea of replacing the current 'chart' on the SP article with one of the nice graphs that you cited on Bush and Clinton articles. I also would support a written summary if editors here preferred that.-- — Kbob • Talk • 02:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever form it takes, I think what may be most appropriate here is move that information from "public image" article to Governorship article (since data is opinion of performance as governor), and then it would seem fine to delete it from the main Sarah Palin article (and then someone can debate whether to summarize data in a sentence or not. lol). NOTE: I was disagreeing that the information should vanish altogether, so I have struck through that word. Let's get it in the right place (Governorship article) and then yada yada yada Proofreader77 (talk) 02:35, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree and I think Zaereth has indicated above he thinks the current chart should be removed, so it seems we have consensus, yes? I'm not so good with graphics. Can you make the move? Have a great weekend! -- — Kbob • Talk • 17:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree with removal. Approval ratings are objective facts that are useful in many ways to many readers. I'm not American, and found the table very useful for giving a trend without having to assimilate loads of text. All aprroval rating have complex reasons behind them, and any reader knows that - this one is no different. If people want more context, then find sources and add more context, don't try to remove facts.YobMod 12:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

(Not delaying action, but rather) making sure we handle the matter in a way that takes into consideration the set of Palin articles AND fairness of such presentation. For the moment, let's pause to look at the earlier discussion (sentences:) about ratings higher on the page. (See below) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The approval ("popularity"?) ratings in 2nd paragraph of "Governor ..." section

Comments

• There are RS sources which put such numbers in context (e.g., small population states are more likely to have 90% approval ratings, the effect of national media focus and perception of abandoning state for national stage etc). I mention this in the context of the discussion of removing the table of figures from the bottom sub-section of the Governor section because just the numbers might convey/highlight the impression of someone who was perceived as having not done a good job—rather than a popular small-state governor under unusual circumstances. I.E., What would the numbers be if she hadn't been laser-beamed by VP nomination? Who knows. :) But perhaps that implies we should not make TOO BIG A DEAL about those numbers. Proofreader77 (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Early life and career

This section is awfully sketchy. Should it be filled out with a little more information about her parents and siblings, for example? Hickorybark (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Are any of them notable and is there a "standard" for when and what type of material should be addded to a bio? TIA --Tom (talk) 16:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Length of term language in lede

User:Scribner made this edit a little earlier, which I have reverted twice. I don't know of any other gubernatorial article where we would make that point in the first sentence of the article. The resignation was noteworthy, and I think we're covering it properly in both the lede and the body of the article. Because this edit is more than a "minor change" to lede of this article, I hope User:Scribner will consider wp:brd and build a consensus for his change here. user:J aka justen (talk) 03:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I should add that User:Scribner has just tagged the article with {{pov}}, adding in his edit summary that it was "for cleansing cited material." user:J aka justen (talk) 03:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The edit "Palin served an incomplete term as governor..." is being cleansed from the lead, even after being triple cited. WP:NPOV. Scribner (talk) 03:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The articles on the other two governors who resigned in their first term that I could think of off the top of my head, Eliot Spitzer and Jim McGreevey, do not mention their governorship in the first sentence. Instead they start with politician and party, and cover governorship with resignation in the second sentence. Perhaps this should be considered for Palin as well. --skew-t (talk) 03:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Their resignations were quite central to (and, at this point, have pretty much served as the ending of) their careers. I don't think we need to hit folks over the head, here, with User:Scribner's "incomplete term" language. We state the years she served, and we wrap up the wp:lede with a concise mention of her resignation. I think that fairly, and neutrally, covers it, allegations of "cleansing" aside. user:J aka justen (talk)

Cleansing, pure and simple. Stating the years of service 2006-2009 doesn't adequately cover the fact that she quit the office of governor. Scribner (talk) 03:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not "cleansing" in any way, but rather good paragraph structure. A couple lines down you'll find, "Palin resigned as Governor on July 26, 2009, with a year and a half remaining in her four-year term." There is nothing POV about the placement of that well-known fact, and it clearly conveys she did not complete her term as governor. Fcreid (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of "until 2009" becoming "until her resignation in 2009" at the beginning. But it was just a suggestion of comparison, as you mentioned other gubernatorial articles not mentioning it in the first sentence. I don't think the revert was a "cleansing." --skew-t (talk) 10:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's obvious cleansing. However, "until her resignation in 2009" is a reasonable edit. The office of governor is fours years. Palin did not successfully fulfill her term as governor. It's obvious this article's nesters don't like that fact, but it remains a fact nevertheless. The correct edit will inform the reader that Palin did not complete her four year term. Scribner (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

1. 1z8gCZ7zpsQ
2. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#32884085

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