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:::I don't excuse anyone on the basis that someone else behaved worse, and neither should you. --] ] 20:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC) :::I don't excuse anyone on the basis that someone else behaved worse, and neither should you. --] ] 20:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
::::In this particular incident, it was Bishonen going on many pages attacking me, Slim Virgin defended her, I pointed out the history, and Mattisse stepped in to simply verify. This later brought on attacks by Bishonen and Giano. It is very onesided and indicative that Bishonen should have been blocked and desysopped for her actions before. ] (]) 20:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


:PS.I really am ''very'' surprised to see you defend sockpuppetting as a few "jokes" in the light of recent events. Well, actually, to be truthful I'm not. Honesty and integrity seem to be in pretty short supply around here. --] ] 18:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC) :PS.I really am ''very'' surprised to see you defend sockpuppetting as a few "jokes" in the light of recent events. Well, actually, to be truthful I'm not. Honesty and integrity seem to be in pretty short supply around here. --] ] 18:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:45, 6 October 2009

There are many aspects of wikipedia's governance that seem to me to be at best ill-considered and at worst corrupt, and little recognition that some things need to change.

I appreciate that there are many good, talented, and honest people here, but there are far too many who are none of those things, concerned only with the status they acquire by doing whatever is required to climb up some greasy pole or other. Increasingly I feel that I'm out of step with the way things are run here, and at best grudgingly tolerated by the children who run this site.

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WikiProject Greater Manchester Announcements

Moors murders

re the car - the book says "Myra hired cars from Warren Autos twice more: on 27 November, the Wednesday after John died, and again on 21 December. They needed a vehicle for reconnaissance trips, to check that their handiwork had gone undiscovered. It was cold weather, and the back of the motorbike was no place for long treks up to the moors, even without worrying about needing a spade." Parrot of Doom 21:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There seemed to me to be a bit missing from the sentence. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


  • I'm not certain there's much more I can add to this now, other than a photograph of the flats at Underwood, or perhaps a period photograph of Gorton if we can find one (the market perhaps). The book will undoubtedly now go on to Hindley's time in prison, and that will only go to 1988 - time for FAC? Parrot of Doom 09:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
      • How about something like this:

"Few crimes have since possessed the same power to shock as those committed by Brady and Hindley. The murders of Pauline Reade, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Lesley Ann Downey, and Edward Evans, might have remained a footnote in criminal history, but for the fact that one of the protagonists was a young woman. In addition, the photographs and tape recordings of the torture of Lesley Ann Downey, demonstrated in court to a disbelieving audience, and the impassionate responses of Brady and Hindley, have helped ensure the lasting notoriety of their crimes. Brady is rarely mentioned in the news, but until her death Hindley's repeated insistence on her innocence, and attempts to secure her release from prison, resulted in her becoming a figure of hate in the national media.

The case has been dramatised on television twice; in Longford (2006), and See No Evil: The Moors Murders (2006). A BBC television debate in 1977 discussed arguments for and against the release of Myra Hindley, with contributions from (parent of girl killed), and a telephone call from (another parent of child killed). Since the case, Hindley's name has been mentioned in relation to other female criminals, including Rosemary West and Maxine Carr."

      • I realise the first paragraph isn't referenced, but I don't think it will be particularly difficult. All the material I've read has commented on the enduring legacy of the case, and I doubt anything there is particularly contentious. A case in point would be Fred and Rosemary West - more killings, but less mention. What do you think of that as a basic outline? Parrot of Doom 13:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that's pretty good PoD, rounds off the article nicely. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok I'll put it in and attempt to source as much as I can. As I say, I don't think any of that is particularly contentious. I'll of course add more later. Parrot of Doom 16:14, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
The Ritchie book covers just about that entire paragraph (except the obit which is obviously post-1988). I'd nominate it for FAC but the honour should be yours, you've done far more work than I have. Go for it :) Parrot of Doom 17:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
"In September 1964 Hindley and Brady went on holiday to Scotland, where they visited Brady's foster family, the Sloans. On one occasion, Brady went out alone. He later told Smith: "I have killed three or four and I'll do another one, but I'm not due for one for three months. But it will be done and it won't count." - there's a hint there that Brady may have killed someone in Scotland, something that might tie in with his future 'confessions'. It could probably use a little expansion but I didn't want it to disappear without further consideration. I haven't thought much about it though. Parrot of Doom 22:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Brady claimed in his letter to Peter Gould that he'd killed someone in Glasgow IIRC, but the police didn't find any matching victim. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:39, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
The ONDB entry for Hindley states that in the committal proceedings the defence wanted the magistrates to sit in private, but that this was rejected. Right now the article says that they did sit in private (in camera), from an edit I made. I'll have a read through The Times articles, to see if I can figure that out. Parrot of Doom 08:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorted, prosecution opening statement heard in private, defence heard in public. Parrot of Doom 08:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
One other thing, would it be better perhaps to save the judgemental comments on their performance in the trial, until after the verdict? There are only a couple of lines. Parrot of Doom 08:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I lied, another thing - they didn't commit the murders in and around Greater Manchester, as the lead says. Lancs and Cheshire surely? I just know someone will pick that up at some point. Parrot of Doom 08:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Not a bad idea; I've moved the two comments about their performances in court to the end of the section. I've also changed the lead to say "in what is now Greater Manchester". --Malleus Fatuorum 11:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering also, if it isn't worth elaborating on the pair's relationship while incarcerated. There's some interesting stuff about letters between the two while on remand, and an attempt to get married—despite their nihilism (married prisoners are allowed some access to oneanother). There's also a coded letter promising the death of the Smiths, Patrick Downey purchasing a gun (given up to the police). The newspaper that paid Smith was the News of the World, and of course there's a fair bit still to insert about Hindley's education inside prison. I must have been tired when I said there wasn't much else to add... Parrot of Doom 20:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to be very careful. This is an encyclopedia article, not the definitive account of the Moors murderers. We could add all sorts of additional detail, but we don't need to, because those who are interested can read the cited sources for themselves. We're trying to provide an accessible summary in less than 100Kb of readable prose. I wouldn't be happy with adding more than a few additional facts such as that the pair hoped to marry, if indeed they did. Hindley's education inside prison beyond what's already said seems irrelevant to me. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
""Within months", Hindley said, "he had convinced me that there was no God at all"." - right now it reads as though this was in the letter she sent to her childhood friend, but that obviously isn't the case. When was this said? Parrot of Doom 12:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
That's an extract from her parole plea, written in 1978/79. I've clarified. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Does Topping elaborate on the search at all - with particular regard to the first search on the A628? Didn't they initially believe that W.H. in the notebook stood for Woodhead, until Pat Hodges clarified it as Wessenden Head? I think the W.H. needs pointing out. Parrot of Doom 09:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Also, the article says that Maureen died in 1977 - but I think that's a mistake, and the actual date is 1980. Parrot of Doom 09:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes that is definitely wrong, so I've corrected it, and also added a bit more about what happened to Maureen and David following the case. It seems fair to do so, especially as Maureen's future ties in with her funeral, and the actions of the victims. Parrot of Doom 10:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Topping does mention "WH" on what he calls the disposal plan that was produced in court, and a "PB", but what he says makes the story of Hodges telling them it was Wessenden Head look a bit dubious: "She said she thought that 'PB' on the disposal plan ... stood for Penistone Burn ... I asked her what 'WH' stood for on the plan. She though it meant Woodhead, which is on the way to Penistone. I asked her if, in the light of developments, she now thought it stood for Wessenden Head on Saddleworth Moor. She did not think so, since she and Brady did not know the names of specific areas there: they just knew the whole area as the Moor." (p. 120). He doesn't say anything about Hodges telling them about Wessenden Head, just that she showed them the lay-by close to where Kilbride's body was found, and the places where the three of them used to go digging for peat. I'd be surprised if Hodges would have known that the area was called Wessenden Head. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have said, by 'clarified' I didn't mean that Hodges told them of Wessenden Head, I meant she did that by her actions in taking them up there. I think it just needs clarifying why initially they searched on the A628. Parrot of Doom 11:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Ah yes, I see what you mean now. I'll check again. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
This is very strange. Topping doesn't mention any search along the A628; he says that they went straight back to Saddleworth Moor, searching 100 yards either side of a 2½ mile stretch of the A635, around where Kilbride's body had been found in the initial investigation. Given that the police had by then known for 20 years where Downey and Kilbride was buried, and that the disposal plan had "WH" on it, it seems rather odd that they'd resume their searching somewhere completely different. I don't believe that they did search along the A628, because it most definitely doesn't match Topping's account, and he was in charge of the police operation. Does anyone else mention this supposed search except Ritchie?
On a different subject, I found a map showing where the three bodies discovered on the Moor were buried, and the area where the search for Bennett was focused, which would be good to redraw and add to the article at some point. I hadn't realised they were so close to the Dove Stone Reservoir you've mentioned before. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Let me have a copy and I'll do the map. They weren't far from here, right? IIRC all the bodies were found within a few hundred yards of the A635, which makes sense as its a horrid surface on which to try and walk. Parrot of Doom 11:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
That picture looks to be about the right place. Shall I scan the map and email you a copy? --Malleus Fatuorum 11:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Yep, although Virgin email is down today for some stupid reason. You could always create a free account at Flickr and I'll grab it from there. Parrot of Doom 12:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, I'll try and get that done this afternoon. --Malleus Fatuorum 12:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh, missed a bit. See No Evil definitely makes a point of them presuming that WH meant Woodhead, which is along the A628 - although it doesn't actually show scenes of a search. Perhaps they initially presumed that the bodies were near Woodhead, and went up to have an informal look, but before the proper search then realised that it was the A635? Parrot of Doom 11:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Scratch that - the programme (a drama but accurate) does spent significant time on the two areas searched, and the "We've been searching in the wrong area". I find it hard to believe they'd manufacture that. Parrot of Doom 11:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
At about this time I was working in Sheffield, and I used the Woodhead Pass almost every working day. I don't ever recall seeing any kind of police search up there. If there had been a search, why would Topping not mention it? He's very clear: "The search began the bext day, 20 November, with thirty men and dogs provided by Lancashire and West Yorkshire police forces. It was a very misty morning, the first of many I would see on Saddleworth Moor". --Malleus Fatuorum 11:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know, but clearly something isn't quite correct. I'll have a look through The Times archive. Parrot of Doom 12:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether, if there was a search along the A628, it wasn't by the Greater Manchester Police. Topping had to get the agreement of the Cheshire police to open his investigation, so maybe the Cheshire police had/were searching along the A628? Sounds a bit far-fetched though. --Malleus Fatuorum 12:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The Times mentions their visits with the Smiths to Woodhead. Ritchie says "The search had been concentrated in the WH area on the A628...largely because of the initials WH on Brady's carefully written sheet of instructions for himself, and also because it was an area David Smith remembered visiting. But Pat, sitting in the back of a police car with a policewoman next to her and a policeman in the front, didn't want them to go that way. She took them somewhere else, a route that came back to her turn by turn..." Parrot of Doom 12:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to make of this. Does The Times talk about a police search olong the A628, or is it just Ritchie? --Malleus Fatuorum 12:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Nothing I've found, and I don't think I will find. The newspaper only reports on the finding of things up at Saddleworth - the body of Downey, clothing (socks) presumably from Kilbride. Woodhead is mentioned in the court transcripts but only in relation to the Smiths' visits up there. Maybe they only searched for a few hours, or a day? Parrot of Doom 12:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The weather forecast is good tomorrow, so chances are I'll be walking up there. Can you get that map to me before tomorrow? Parrot of Doom 20:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

My internet connection was down for much of the afternoon, and I've been out this evening, only just got back. I'll get the scan done now and let you know where to download it from asap. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Searching for Keith

I asked for input on that website, and got this reply:

All the victims were sexually assaulted; not just three.

  • How can anyone possibly know whether or not Keith Bennett was sexually assaulted? I suspect that he was, but that's not the same thing. We currently say in the lead that four of the victims were sexually assualted, which is all that can be said with certainty, I think. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The police always suspected Brady and Hindley of the five murders, but did not pursue the disappearances of Pauline Reade and Keith Bennett as fully as they could have done.

A question mark must still hang over whether or not the ‘full extent’ of Brady and Hindley’s crimes have come to light.

Brady did not attack Pauline Reade with a shovel. There are several variations on the exact sequence of events leading to Pauline’s death, as there are with each victim. And all Myra Hindley's 'confessions' should be treated with caution.

  • I think there does seem to some reasonable doubt about the attack with a shovel, and we probably ought to rewrite that. Topping says that Brady told Hindley to stay with Pauline Reade's body—whose throat had been cut—while he went to fetch a spade he had hidden somewhere. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

John Kilbride was approached by Hindley and Brady together.

Keith Bennett’s grandmother lived in Longsight, on Morton Street, not in Gorton.

Ritchie doesn't say where, but she does say Stockport Road, and that his gran was a cleaner at Victoria Park - and Morton St is between the two. Parrot of Doom 23:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

David Smith did not call the police simply because Maureen insisted; they both knew what had to be done.

Hindley may have replied sensitively to Mrs Johnson in her letter; in private correspondence, she was a great deal less compassionate.

Ian Brady was indeed cruel to animals when younger but the stories recounted here have no known basis in truth. Whether or not he was deliberately brutal to other children during his own youth is also a matter of conjecture.

After serving as a butcher’s assistant Ian Brady’s next job - according to one contemporary source - was as engine cleaner with British Rail, then an apprentice plater and afterwards as a tea-boy at the Harland & Wolff shipyard in Glasgow.

Ian Brady’s stepfather, Patrick Brady, was an ex-Army man working at Smithfield Market as a meat porter when Ian arrived in Manchester. Pat found his stepson a job at the market with Howarth’s Fruiterers as an errand boy.

In November 1955 Brady was convicted of stealing 44lbs of lead seals from banana boxes at the market after a driver asked him to load some stolen lead on to his lorry; on being caught, the scrap dealer gave the driver away to the police and he in turn implicated Ian.

Brady began work at Millwards on 16 February 1959, not 1958; your source here is mistaken, as he is on a number of occasions.

Ritchie says 21st birthday, suit bought, applied and won a job at Millwards - 21st birthday would confirm 1959. Parrot of Doom 23:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Myra’s ‘brutal’ childhood; it was neither as vicious as has been suggested nor as uncommon in those days for children to get a ‘clout’ from their parents, and indeed, teachers.

Michael Higgins was himself a good swimmer, as his father later told the inquest into his son’s death.

Hindley’s colleagues at Lawrence Scott and Electrometers did club together to replace her lost pay packet but were less than impressed when she told them she had lost another soon afterwards.

Ritchie says the same, but its a bit of a nit-pick really, so I'll not add it. Parrot of Doom 17:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hindley had a pink ‘rinse’ - it doesn’t have the same effect as dying one’s hair block pink.

Confirmed Parrot of Doom 17:42, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

The first film Brady and Hindley saw together was not Judgement at Nuremberg, as is commonly recounted.

Ian Brady saw the film 'Compulsion' because it starred one of his favourite actors, Orson Welles. He did not read the book.

Myra Hindley broke off contact with Ian Brady in early 1972, not 1971. Her decision to do so had nothing to do with Dorothy Wing's decision to take her to Hampstead Heath.

Ritchie says that she broke off contact in 1971 - "Earlier in 1971, after Carole left and stopped providing letters to him, she decided to break with him" - she wrote to Longford telling him how painful it was. "But although she broke off the relationship, she still corresponded with him sporadically." I'll change the text to reflect this. Ritchie also says nothing about Wing being impressed by this cutoff - rather, that Hindley successfully had her Category A status repealed, and that allowed Wing to take her out of the prison. Parrot of Doom 18:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hindley did not die as the result of a heart attack. The inquest into her death, which was held at Highpoint prison, founds she had died of natural causes: bronchial pneumonia, brought on by hypertension and coronary heart disease.

this and other online sources confirm this. I'll make this change now. Parrot of Doom 23:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

David Smith's 'murder' of his father was a compassionate act to end Jack Smith's extreme suffering. David Smith did rebuild his life; he was awarded custody of his children and married very happily the second time around. The policemen involved in the original investigation have pointed out that had it not been for David’s phone call on the morning after the murder of Edward Evans, more children would very probably have been murdered and those who had already disappeared may never have been found.

Maureen Hindley also remarried. She did not die in 1977 but on 9 July 1980.

Hindley’s mother insisted she should die in prison because she feared for her daughter’s safety if she was released and for that reason alone.

Correct, so I changed this. Parrot of Doom 18:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

No sources given, but its probably worth rechecking what we've entered, to see how the above fits. Parrot of Doom 23:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Always worth double-checking, but it's very evident that different sources are telling slightly different stories. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Yep, and I agree some of the above isn't factual, but all the same its obvious there are some minor errors made by the sources, that warrant rechecking. It'll not take long, and none of them are major. I'll try and get through as many as I can. Parrot of Doom 23:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
      • One of the things I've found very striking about this case is that apart from Evans's murder there are no accounts of any of the murders other than Hindley's. No independent witnesses, and Brady won't talk. Like Topping, I find it rather strange that she was always somewhere else when the actual murders took place, or at least she claimed to be somewhere else. I think it's clear that she wasn't always telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", as she herself admitted later in life. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Before I create this map, I wondered how we're going to phrase the text. The image of the moors, from the rocks of Hollin Brown Knoll, roughly encompasses the burial sites, and I think that once the map is done it'll be worth mentioning in the image text. The photograph was taken from these rocks, looking west-south-west. I think all three sites are in there. There's also a scene in See No Evil, which shows a very similar shot (although not from the rocks, but across the road). Parrot of Doom 17:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the question is. Are you asking about the image caption? I don't see that it's necessary to say anything in the article's body about the map. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I mean, the image of the moors - you can see all three of the burial sites in that image. By the way, I just found out that Hindley authored an unpublished autobiography. I'm trying to find out where the papers are. Parrot of Doom 18:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Probably with Patricia Cairns, or handed on to Staff. I think for the moors image we can say something general like "... showing the area in which the bodies of X, Y, Z, were discovered". --Malleus Fatuorum 18:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
book Parrot of Doom 18:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
That could be an interesting read when it's published. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, here's an early draft. I'm not completely happy with it, let me know what you think. I can't do it in svg format, it buggers up the texture (the reeds). I also need to add in the river through the valley to the west, and I maybe need to put a few peaks and troughs in there, to reflect the geography. It all takes time though. Parrot of Doom 21:46, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I know it takes time, that's why I didn't want to do it. I wouldn't bother with peaks and troughs, but I'd like to see the locations of the graves, and whose graves they were. The SVG problem is probably because you're using a gif for the background. I'd suggest dumping that and keeping it simple. Also needs a scale of course. So, close, but no cigar. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 21:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Nah, its just the the svg format doesn't handle opacity, the texture isn't a bitmap. I can't be specific with the graves, unless I 'zoom out' to a much larger scale. The map you gave me, if you look closely, is actually rather poor on detail. That's why I just made two ellipses - to be general. I could change them, and create a general 'area' north of the road, and a smaller 'area' south of the road - that might be better. It does however need a key and a scale. Parrot of Doom 22:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
What software are you using? SVG handles opacity so far as I'm aware. The two ellipses are fine, so long as we label them as X and Y found here, Z found there I think. The map I sent you wasn't great, I agree, but it was the only one I've found. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Well it bloody well wasn't good enough. I expect better from my acolytes! ;) I'm using Adobe Illustrator. You can see the svg version if you browse the category the map above is in on commons. Parrot of Doom 22:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Could you put a source, or reference on the map, since its inspired by the scan you provided? I changed the burial sites slightly based on information from the Keith Bennett website. Not enough that it constitutes OR I think. Parrot of Doom 13:35, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Yep, I'll do that. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This, abridged from Staff's book, says that Reade knew Hindley. This would make sense as Reade went to the same school as Maureen. Do you have the Staff book? I think this is important - that even though Reade was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, Hindley didn't have a problem driving her up to the moors for what we know then happened. Parrot of Doom 18:37, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Hindley certainly did recognise Reade, can't remember why, but I do still have Staff's book, so I'll check and add that in. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Staff says that Hindley recognised Reade because the latter was a friend of her sister, Maureen, and an ex-girlfriend of David Smith. Checking through Topping again, it appears that Reade wasn't Brady's first choice victim, he'd picked a young girl called Marie Ruck, who lived next door but one to Hindley's mother. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This backs up everything Ritchie says, although she doesn't really go into detail on the details of each murder. Parrot of Doom 20:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't suppose the Topping book says if the infamous mugshots were taken at the same time, or on different days? Because the caption suggests they were arrested together, which initially wasn't the case. Parrot of Doom 22:22, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Topping doesn't say anything about the Brady mugshot, but he does say that Hindley's was taken at the time of the trial, not when she was arrested. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Richard Gere and the gerbil

Take this unsurpassable opportunity to be in at the beginning of an other wikidrama LMAO. No viagra or cialis needed --WebHamster 20:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Toodles

Whilst I can still edit, see you folks, don't let the twats and fuckwits get you down! --WebHamster 00:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear. Roux takes himself very seriously, but luckily he's not an administrator. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

So...

When's this thing going blue? ceranthor 23:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

November 27. Put it in your diary. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Erm, okay, but I'll have to make one first. What an entry that would make! ceranthor 23:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately I'm going to have to oppose for having a username that's utterly impossible to spell. –Juliancolton |  01:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm quite certain that you won't be feeling lonely in the oppose column Julian. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I won't be opposing. Luckily, Malleus can't return the favour (ack! Britishism!) because I'll never let MINE turn blue. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Nonsense. We could promote Malleus to bureaucrat so he can simply give you the bit. :) –Juliancolton |  02:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Why not just give him the "founder" status bit? ;) — Ched :  ?  03:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Because I wouldn't accept it? Heck, I haven't even accepted rollbacker. :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 22:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

FAC style

Hi Malleus, I reposted my suggestion at the FAC page. See Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Proposal_for_a_featured_article_style. SlimVirgin 02:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Tropic Thunder

Hey, hope you're doing well. It's good to see that you are still reviewing the Sweeps articles, maybe they'll all be completed by the end of the year (I love wishful thinking). Anyway, thanks to your very helpful copyediting of Oklahoma City bombing to get to FA, I was wondering if you'd be willing to take a look at Tropic Thunder. I'd like to take it FAC soon, but want some outsiders to take a look at it. I've gone over the article several times, and have asked a few other people to review it but they've been busy. If you're willing/able I'd appreciate it, if you can't, no worries, I'll keep up the search. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talkcontrib) 05:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, here's hoping Sweeps gets finished soon. I don't think I'd ever volunteer for anything like that again, it's been a massive effort. Sure, I'll take a lok at Tropic Thunder, but probably not for a day or two. --Malleus Fatuorum 10:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I almost want to recommend shutting down GAN until it's finished, but I'm pretty sure I'd be tarred and feathered for suggesting such a crazy idea. Take your time with the article, I'm in no big rush. Thanks for helping! --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talkcontrib) 00:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the cleanup, I really appreciate it. I'll probably head there later this week, so I also hope there aren't any major issues that arise. Thanks again. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talkcontrib) 02:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Peckforton Castle

Nev1 suggested that this article might be suitable for submission as a GAC. It needed quite a bit more work, especially in finding citations for additions made by other editors. If you wish, and have time, would you let me know what you think, and if it's worthy of GAC, carry out some copyediting? By the way List of church restorations, amendments and furniture by John Douglas is now at FLC. Cheers Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course. Nev1's a pretty good judge of when an article's ready for GAN. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Next

I know you're a busy chap, but do you fancy working on a similar article to Moors murders, such as Murder of James Bulger, or Harold Shipman, after a suitable pause for thought? Or do you have too much to do? I still have my Pink Floyd stuff, and other things on the side, but I'm about past the crest of the hill on those so can slow down a little. Parrot of Doom 20:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd be happy to assist with either of those. Majorly talk 20:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd been thinking about Harold Shipman anyway, and Majorly mentioned James Bulger before. I'm sure the three of us could do something with both of those, if we can manage to shepherd Brady and Hindley through FAC. I'm slightly alarmed at the recent calls for an In popular culture section, as I thought we'd already dealt with that. Oh well. :-( I think I'd probably try to tackle Shipman first, as a break from child murderers though. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts

Ottava Rima (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

What were you responding to Ottava? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

WebHamster

Misplaced Pages talk pages are not a soapbox to use to give the finger to people you disagree with. Please reverse your restoration of the content I removed from WebHamsters page. Chillum 14:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Please stop trying to impose your rather primitive views on "civility" on those who happen not to agree with them. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Malleus, you know that the image is used to inflame a situation. WebHamster should not have it there. It is clearly there to antagonize. There is a difference between defending what is right and simply wanting to upset one's opponents. As someone who works to defend him, you should clean such stuff out and bolster mature responses instead, as that would be the only way for him to return from these problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Not being a mind reader, I know no such thing. The image wasn't added recently, just seems like yet more unseemly dancing on the grave to me. Is everyone to be prohibited from expressing a view that Chillum doesn't agree with, or just WebHamster? --Malleus Fatuorum 14:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Already under discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#User_talk:WebHamster. Friday (talk) 14:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that if people feel WebHamster's 'finger' image is aimed at another user, then they contact that user to see what's what. If he doesn't care, then leave it alone. Really, why are people so interested in patrolling Misplaced Pages with their Civility Police "NEE NAW NEE NAW" cars and uniforms, and sticking their noses in other people's business? Besides which, the image isn't necessarily aimed at a person. Why can't people just go and edit articles? Parrot of Doom 20:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Thumbs up

Without stating my position on the issue what you've said here shows remarkable compassion and sensitivity, and I salute you for it.--Tznkai (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Didn't work though, Lara's bits are clearly off limits. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 04:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
<3 Lara 05:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

the sock rot

How about an RfC on the removal of one word? Tony (talk) 03:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Happy happy happy

Well done :) I feel particularly pleased with that one, moreso than Mary Toft I think :) Parrot of Doom 18:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we did a good job with that, and I can at last take my books back to the library now. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 18:03, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought you might find this image of interest, as well as this poignant picture. Parrot of Doom 21:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

A shame we can't use those. Ah well. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Email

Sent you one. Majorly talk 21:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that explains why I kept getting that captchit thing, or whatever it's called. Thanks for letting me know, but no worries. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Language

This was inappropriate. There are ways to disagree with someone without resorting to name-calling. If you continue with that kind of language, your account access may be blocked. --Elonka 00:11, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Telling the truth often results in an account being blocked. Try telling me something I don't already know. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Malleus, just be happy that you got a warning. Come on, you were supposed to leave Chillum alone. -I- made the point to Chillum already knowing what would be said by more hostile groups. That should have been enough without having to jump in. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Seems to me like you and I are being singled out as the bad people here Ottava, and I'm not happy about that. You and I are like chalk and cheese; about the only the thing we have in common is a sense of decency and fair play, something that's sadly lacking around here. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, don't worry about it. You went aggressive and got your digs in, and cost us both Chillum talk page editing privileges. Are you happy? :P Ottava Rima (talk) 01:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Neither happy nor unhappy. I just find it curious that the deception of an administrator who is quite happy to support the blocks of other editors doing exactly what he's doing is tolerated, but that when that discrepancy is pointed out—albeit in somewhat colourful terms—we get warned off. How could anyone be expected to feel happy about that? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Now now, remember to AGF - he could be acting deceptively for the best of the Wiki. :P But seriously, you were supposed to -not- post on his talk page. If you have the urge to do that again, just link to his talk page in a new section here and rant away if you have to, but just leave his page alone. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
You're quite right, I shouldn't have posted on his talk page, mea culpa. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Why did you choose to single me out? I thought that Roux was far more presssing in his criticism. I'm getting more than a little fed up with all of these double if not at least triple standards around here. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:49, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I was referring to when Chillum asked you to stop posting on his talk page and that you would leave him alone a while back. Remember when we had that Cold War going instead of a Hot War that you sparked up? It was a little nicer that way. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Was that before or after Chillum promised to be an honest administrator? Do me a favour! --Malleus Fatuorum 02:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I joined a Facebook group that said "Impeach Obama" before he was sworn in as a President. The explanation on the page was that "The very moment the President opens his mouth and begins to act, he is lying to the American people and destroying the Constitution." It is that old "How do you know a politician is lying? He is speaking." joke. You can apply that to administrators. :P Ottava Rima (talk) 02:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
110 + 110 = 210. mwahaha... J.delanoyadds 02:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, that just proves that there is the rare admin who is not a liar, but merely an uber nerd with too much time on his hands that he has to make math related jokes. :P 03:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Is it true that I "can use an alternate account to work in contentious areas where harassment is common"? This is wonderful news! If someone accuses me of foul play and asserts that my new account is a sock will, it be enough to let them know that Chillum said it was okay per long standing consensus? I've tried to invoke the ignore all the rules policy, but that one seems to be more effective in its application for some editors than others.ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Best to wait until you manage to finally get your administrator's cloak of invulnerability. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A cloak of invulnerability is needed before a cloak of invisibility? :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
If you're invulnerable, who cares if anyone can see you or not? Personally though I'd probably go for winged-sandals first though. --Malleus Fatuorum
From my understanding - winged sandals help, but the Helmet of Hades is -very- valuable, and the Aegis Shield is just absolutely awesome. ;/ Ottava Rima (talk) 03:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

spam

I know that you've been interested in these issues in the past. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject AdministratorChed :  ?  04:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

There was a time when I might have been interested, but right now I don't see the point of yet another talking shop. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Gunpowder Plot

Hi Malleus - I've left you a reply on my talk page Richerman (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"Gross distortion"

I'm not sure entirely why you choose to use this phrase which itself is far from useful. I also note that you seem to overlook the more central, directly and clearly relevant, point, which could itself be seen as "distorting". As I remember, as per the AtbCom page ] it was pointed out rather frequently that Mattisse had been ragther regularly abused by a sockpuppeteer, among others,specifically the previous RfCs on her. While it is true that Mattisse's conduct has been negative, I also wonder whether her posting one comment in support of OR and making a few of what she believed to be jokes regarding Bishonen/Bishzilla can be seen as having been as you put it a "conspicuous failure". And, if it comes to that, how are we then supposed to deal with the relative failure of other measures, perhaps including the at least 2 ArbComs specifically called to deal with the editor on whose page you posted tha above quote? Maybe your own judgement is, shall we say, less than neutral? John Carter (talk) 18:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I chose to use the phrase "gross distortion" because I believe it to be an accurate description of the facts. Why else would I have used the phrase? Rather than question my judgement I would suggest that you look carefully at your own. We all get regularly abused here, often by administrators like yourself, it goes with the territory. What we don't all do though is go crying to Mummy about it, and using it as an excuse for our own bad behaviour. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I would have to say that having half of my block log directly attributed to the actions of that corrupt group and being harassed by them for over a year that it is more than just "regular abuse". Ottava Rima (talk) 19:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't excuse anyone on the basis that someone else behaved worse, and neither should you. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In this particular incident, it was Bishonen going on many pages attacking me, Slim Virgin defended her, I pointed out the history, and Mattisse stepped in to simply verify. This later brought on attacks by Bishonen and Giano. It is very onesided and indicative that Bishonen should have been blocked and desysopped for her actions before. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
PS.I really am very surprised to see you defend sockpuppetting as a few "jokes" in the light of recent events. Well, actually, to be truthful I'm not. Honesty and integrity seem to be in pretty short supply around here. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Malleus. I think that there are 2 perspectives on sock puppetry. Ideally there should be none, and I'd favour alternate accounts to be forbidden unless a dispensation for very good reasons is gained in advance, and reviewed periodically. Sounds like our views on this are very similar. OTOH the standard set in practice is rather hard to discern - in fact the amount of misconduct condoned by some sockpuppet-masters justified your "Honesty and integrity seem to be in pretty short supply around here". By that dismal standard, Mattisse's use of socks was totally insignificant - and her block for sockpuppetry another piece of evidence that connections appear to matter more than conduct. --Philcha (talk) 20:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In response to Malleus's comments to me, I would say that I am probably privy to some information and conclusions based on it which he is not, having had some private conversations with one of the parties. I actually came here to indicate that I was going to post him an e-mail making reference to some of it, because, as it is based on material which isn't public, I didn't think it would be reasonable to post it publicly. However, in light of his comments above, I regret to say that I honestly cannot trust his own judgement or how he would act if he were given the information. John Carter (talk) 20:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Quite, So what I suggest that you do John is to rearrange these letters into a well known phrase or saying "kucf fof". How dare you come here and make these kind accusations. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless you see something I don't...

I think Ursie is ready for the big leagues tomorrow or so. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)