Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:42, 22 December 2005

Infobox changes

Well, Gerald, okay, but do you mind setting out your reasons for distinguishing the popes from just about every other type of person in Misplaced Pages? I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that I think you should give reasons so that interested editors can see where you are going with it.Grace Note 04:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gerald was just replacing older already existing summary boxes started by others on various articles on the popes with a sleeker, cleaner design. Click for an archived old version. Gerald's also making sure all the popes get the infoboxes instead of only a scattered handful, like there was before.

Also, there are several of us who don't think that it's "distinguishing" the popes in any special way when the Presidents of the United States, Presidents of the Philippines and several other such articles use the same infobox but use different designs. There's precedence for these boxes; that's why there hasn't been opposition to it for the longest time. --James Easton 05:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, James. I'm not having a go at Gerald or his work. The pope articles should all look the same, I agree. However, I have George W. Bush's page in another tab and his infobox is not headed with "President of the United States", nor is his name given in Latin. Nor does his father's, so that aspect of it still requires explanation.

And James, I should point out that the heading is new and does not have a precedent, which is why I'm discussing it with you here. There has been no opposition to it because it's new.Grace Note 05:39, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the offending text from the template for now.

Then you'll probably want to look over what other editors did with the Presidents of the Philippines. Examples: Ferdinand Marcos, Fidel V. Ramos, et al. --James Easton 05:52, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think those should be changed too but I don't really have the time. Unless the editors in question propose to change all articles on all heads of state to match, they really shouldn't do it in their pet areas. It doesn't add anything anyway, I reckon. What do you think?Grace Note 06:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin name

I don't pretty much care whether or not Latin is used or the office the person held was prominently displayed at the header of the infobox. You asked what my intentions were. Just to make my intentions clear with the new infobox, (1) I just wanted to make the infobox look nicer than it was and (2) add it to all the papal articles for consistency. The use of Latin was discussed at length by other Misplaced Pages editors somewhere else, I'm not sure where. You might want to discuss that decision with them.

I'm pretty much opposed to the use of Latin because it's sometimes redundant for most of the popes (i.e., English "Pope Pius XII" is Latin "Pius PP. XII"). I don't see the point of using both but it was already on the old infoboxes and that's why I added it originally to this new infobox. Eleassar777 noted that there was indeed a compromise to use it. All in all I pretty much don't care.

As a Misplaced Pages administrator, my only concern is that articles are aesthetically pleasing, have the basic information presented and whatever other information added is factually correct. I pretty much let concensus dictate design of infoboxes and photo layout. If they have concensus, I don't care. --Gerald Farinas 15:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's fine. I feel exactly the same. Thanks for explaining. Grace Note 16:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Design

I don't understand, though, Grace. Just because one box doesn't have a type of information doesn't mean that all should have it. I feel that the titles should stay on the top of the infoboxes. Now, we can start with the pope, and then move on to the other heads of state. We can't change them all at once. Leave the pope/president boxes as they were. Bratsche 22:48, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that it's a major change. I personally don't like it. I think it is a little bit silly, frankly. The page has the name of the person and the box itself says who the person is. The bottom line is that you have not extended it to other presidents etc., and I don't imagine you actually will either. It would be an enormous undertaking and you're not likely to get much help because you simply haven't made any good case for it. Still, I don't care enough about it to change it again.Grace Note 07:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But do keep talking. Convince me it's a good idea and I'll help do it! Sorry, I sounded a bit harsh and I didn't mean to.Grace Note 01:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea in cases where the title of the person is not in the article heading. For example, some person who didn't know who George Bush was, and just wanted his birthdates: He accesses the article, gets the basic/relevant information, and then notices that he was a president. Ok, so maybe that's not the best example, but you get the point.

Yes, I do but the first line says that or should. We should not necessarily treat our readers like idiots.Grace Note 02:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And if we agree, I plan to extend it to other infoboxes (not just the pope) if at least for the sake of universality. Bratsche 01:20, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The Latin name is the official name of the Pope, not the English. You wouldn't translate a spanish name like José into John, would you? For that reason, the Latin should stay. Also, the Latin name was a previous agreement as Eleassar777 noted before. Bratsche 01:31, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Bratsche, we don't use "official names". How mad! Some places and people have the most astonishing "official names" (God forbid we should use the official name of Bangkok in a photo caption!), but what we use is the most commonly used name in English. In fact, we *do* translate names into English. Very much so! I think you should consult the page on naming conventions to help you understand how names are treated. We call Muenchen Munich, Roma Rome and we use transliterated names for characters such as the Buddha and Confucius (a Latin name, not even his Chinese name transliterated!)The Pope is commonly known in English by his English name. It's pure affectation to use the Latin name. We should not do it. Surely you are not suggesting that you will head all photos of heads of state with their full titles? The Queen's would run for half a page! Now, I'm not an edit warrior or anything like that, Bratsche, so I'm going to leave it at that. You can change the template back to reflect our policy or leave it as it is, as you choose.Grace Note 02:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You've got me there, Grace. Makes more sense now, especially with the example of a royal's name. I guess I've forgotten the conventions a little bit. We are in the English Misplaced Pages, after all. I'll rv the changes. Bratsche 02:53, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

For around the last 25 popes, the entire code is used, but starting at Pope Gregory XV I used the template including the latin name (does not show up, but in case you change your mind) could someone just check if everything is ok? --Astrowob 04:41, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I added the box for about 150 years more than the 250 years already there, and I intend to continue tommorrow if everything is ok with the template (much much faster than using the whole code) ;p --Astrowob 04:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know, I've removed those Latin names from all of the pope articles infoboxes. We can rest easy, now. Bratsche 23:12, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

What about including the Latin name in the text, after the English name? --Eleassar777 10:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't see any reason not to, if it is an official title. It should not be bold though, I think.Grace Note 14:15, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Are we talking about including the Latin name in the article text? Oh yeah, definitely include the Latin name, just not in the infobox :). Bratsche 20:28, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

I have already done it a few hours ago. However, I have had time to do this only for J.P. I and J.P. II --Eleassar777 21:06, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ed g2s changes

Changes made to the template by User:Ed g2s kinda whacked out the pope articles. They're not all uniform anymore. Could someone fix them, or revert the change until someone goes through all the articles to fix it? --James Easton 01:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could you be a bit more specific than "whacked out", they look pretty uniform to me. ed g2s • talk 01:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I like this box, but it should include the position prior to being elected pope. For instance, it should say that JP2 was archbishop of Krakow, JP1 archbishop of Venice, etc. Just my $0.02. 01:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

More simple design?

Hey, let's not make big changes without discussing them, especially when someone has put a lot of work in. Let's talk about whether there should be a simpler or more ornate box and what's involved in fixing articles that use the template. I've reverted the template just for now but let's say ed2gs' template is on the table for discussion, yes? Grace Note 03:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gerald's version might be a touch ornate, but that's not too bad for a position that used to be crowned with a triple tiara. Personally, I'd vote for the old version, but I'm open to Ed's comments. Bratsche 04:05, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate the work you've put in, but Misplaced Pages articles are not the place for people to express their CSS creativity. The point of having a stylesheet is to keep page appearences consistent. The system of someone picking a style at random because they created the box is going to lead to a lot of inconsistency within the project. From what I can tell there was no in-depth discussion of how a pope infobox should look before you created it. I correct infoboxes to the in-house styling all the time, it's just routine maintenance. ed g2s • talk 13:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Bear in mind: Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Don.27t_get_fancy. ed g2s • talk 13:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I actually think it's rather elegant and not too fancy. TheCoffee

I agree, but it still needs to use to stylesheet, not inline custom styles. A user should be able to come along and edit his monobook.css to make, for example, all the infoboxes green, or all bold text italic. The more we use inline style, the less this is possible - it's simply a case of separating appearance from semantics. ed g2s • talk 18:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Then please post explicit instructions for Gerald, so that he knows where to go to make changes and what process you think he ought to follow to make them. Simply reverting his work is not helpful but showing him the way you think is best would be. Grace Note 22:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, the current design is a bit ugly; it's also not at all uniform with the vast majority of other infoboxes. I was in the process of changing it (as ed_g2s said, as a matter of routine maintenance) when I noticed this discussion, and since this sort of decision requires site-wide consensus, I think I'll revert to the default version. If you'd like to propose a change in the appearance of infoboxes, you might suggest it at Misplaced Pages talk:Infobox, and if you have community support, the toccolours class can be edited accordingly. User:Rdsmith4/Sig 18:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree, current design is ugly, Gerald's is very clean and elegant, I think it's a great change and should be implemented. --Wgfinley 13:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Um, I think you've misunterstood him there. He was pointing out how it is routine to switch to the current "toccolours". Notice how he reverted Gerald's design ("Rdsmith4 (revert to version consistent with every other infobox)"). ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What happened to Gerald's design? It was a masterpiece of cool, crisp, visually exciting design. Instead it was replaced by a third rate mediocre design. So what if the 'new' version is closer to the original template? It is mediocre and unattractive. We should be using Gerald's as the basis for all the templates. It is a top class design years ahead of the dreary replacement. And there appears to be a clear consensus here that Gerald's design, not its hideous replacement, should be the one to use. Lets openly decide here on which one we want.

This really isn't the page on which to discuss site wide stylesheet changes. As I've already pointed out, there is no justification for Infobox pope to look completely different from every other infobox on Misplaced Pages, so if you really love Gerald's design that much, take it to the Infobox or monobook discussion pages. ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Where is it stated they all have to be the same?? The proper place to discuss a template is on its talk page, not some other page for a general group of templates. Secondly, there are deviations in layout and design for various templates {{battlebox}} is one that comes to mind as one that has some different formatting. Again, I think this change is subtle, clean, and attractive, I say go with it. --Wgfinley 07:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vote on which design to use

Gerald's design, influenced TheCoffee's work elsewhere

1. FearÉIREANN 22:35, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
2. Bratsche 22:42, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
3. Grace Note 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)Totally support Gerald's design. I don't see any sign that we use infoboxes particularly widely. Most leaders don't have one. The ones that do have different boxes. I say that if people want to standardise it, they should make Gerald's the standard and spend their days implementing it rather than trying to prevent editors from innovating and trying to improve the encyclopaedia.Grace Note 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

   Infoboxes are used on tens of thousands of pages (The succession infoboxes are used on >5000 (I didn't want the server to keep counting) articles alone). They have already been standardised in the stylesheet. If you want toccolours changed to Gerald's design go and lobby for it in the relevant places. ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

   This is a relevant place. Why don't you stop barking at editors who are working in good faith and add something constructive? It's perfectly okay to lobby here and then lobby elsewhere.Grace Note 14:41, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

   It really isn't the relevant place. If you though all links should be red, you wouldn't override the colours, so that is out of style with the rest of the project, then take it to the monobook.css talk, you should go straight there. If all the infoboxes are using the same class, then we change the styling on to whatever design the community wants by making just one edit. The editors of papal pages does not reflect the opinion of the entire community, so this vote is in the wrong place. ed g2s • talk 16:24, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

4. Arwel 23:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
5. Wgfinley 23:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) P.S. - any way you can add a spot for an (optional) image caption? (to credit a photo or painting if needed)
6. TheCoffee 04:00, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC). We've been calling it Gerald's design, but I should note that it actually seems to have been inspired by Template:Infobox Philippine president (see Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo) that I made, which was based on Template:Infobox Philippine province (see Benguet) made by Seav which has been in use on Philippine province articles in one form or another since 2003.
7. Astrowob 14:36, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) I did prefer Gerald's design, the one currently in place is "OK", but nothing more, Gerald's one was much better looking and please FearÉIREANN could you explain to me in my talk page why you accuse me of changing it to the current form when the only thing I did was to add the infobox to some pope pages?????

   My error. I apologise unreservedly. I have also done so on your page. FearÉIREANN 22:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

8. - UtherSRG 03:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)