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That is the more general question of the RFC here, should drawings be sufficient, or do we need full on photos of real people having sex? ] 17:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC) That is the more general question of the RFC here, should drawings be sufficient, or do we need full on photos of real people having sex? ] 17:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The more general question is what's the most encyclopedic image? Should we settle for sufficient? If we are discussing a line between informative and pornographic, photographs cover the whole gamut. Surely to promote the idea that drawings are "sufficient" and photographs are "over-sufficient?" is to promote wikipedia censorship? Peace. ] 19:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:59, 23 December 2005

there's a redirect from Coitus more ferarum to here. Please explain on the page what this alternate name is. Also, if that's the technical name, the article should go live there. -- Tarquin 10:09 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

I think the Misplaced Pages convention is to use whatever term is most familiar to speakers of the English language. Somehow I doubt that it's "coitus more ferarum". ;) -- Oliver P. 10:23 May 12, 2003 (UTC)


Hmmm... latin name isn't ideal, but many people find the name "Doggy position" a little crude. It's fine in the pages of Viz, but I don't think it's brilliant for a serious encyclopedia. Like the difference between "arse", "bottom", and the latin medical term which I can't think of. Misplaced Pages should use "bottom" -- Tarquin 11:40 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Gluteus maximus? Anus? Nates? Karada 12:52 21 May 2003 (UTC)
It is a little crude, yes, but at least people will know what they're getting before they come here. If they see a link to a Latin phrase, they might follow it expecting to get an article on some obscure legal procedure or some such thing, and they might get a bit of a shock... -- Oliver P. 00:12 May 13, 2003 (UTC)


Quite. We need the middle ground, I think -- Tarquin

doggy style

Maybe we can move to doggy style since afaik it's the most commonly used expression for this position? Anybody agree or disagree?--Sonjaaa 00:12, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

Wendi and Dave G

I'd like some significant historical evidence that these two individuals actually existed. A google search yields no results when conducted as follows: "Wendi and Dave G". I'm almost certain that they're allusory to private citizens whose lives needn't be published in a legitimate source such as Misplaced Pages. I'm only willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt until such time as someone can verify my suspicions (by finding that these two truly are irrelevant). Thank you. Earthliberator 08:29, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard of sexual aficionados known as "Wendi and Dave G" throughout my eight-year quest in the pornographic realm. Therefore, I am 95% positive that the two aforementioned names are probably fabricated characters or the unsuspecting victims of some rudimentary adult joke. If so, please delete that reference immediately. If not, please enlighten the rest of us on the remarkable achievements of these two doggie experts. Danke, Lowang 08:40, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the disputed tag as the problem has been mitigated. I appreciate the efforts of whichever editor corrected this concern, and am generally pleased by the new version of the article. Earthliberator 18:44, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

same image with leapfrog although it's clearly mentioned that they differ

see subject ;)

Union of the Cow

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the different animal-titled Unions in the Kama Sutra have to do with relative sizes of genitalia? Ie., large penis in snug vagina was considered a "higher" union while smaller penis in a looser vagina was "lower"? What does position have to do with it?

Nope, while many of the Kama Sutra's headings denote "This is best suited for a man with a long penis, whose partner can become a human pretzel" (paraphrase), those are simply guidelines related to the ease and anatomical preference of the suggested position. As an exaggeration, "To try the Standing on opposite sides of the room like a Wolf and Sheep Position, it is best if the man is at least 14' long" :P

Not so neutral.

This line is in one way advocating anal sex:-

Many people do not regard this position as demeaning in any way for either partner, and enjoy the position for its own merits

Does anyone have any statistics to back up this statement?

Image

Image shows clearly better than line drawing. I refer to Autofellatio, there they also say "Image better than line drawing, clearly". This is common opinion. It has been discuss before. Shall we do again?

Actually, I don't think the image shows anything better than the line drawings. Autofellatio needs the picture to prove it's anatomically possible, if improbable. The same does not apply here.--SarekOfVulcan 01:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with SarekOfVulcan that the photograph just doesn't illustrate the position any better than the line drawings. Evil Monkey - Hello 01:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Line drawings are not showing the appropriate proportions. They are not accurate in showing the real procedure. They also are more "obscene" if such exists, as they are showing drawing of parts not in photo. Photo is showing very well what it is, is showing real couple doing so showing it is not demeaning but good as was suggested, and is showing very well that is done by people. Photo is also showing better than drawing because photo is real and is less "obscene" if such exists. This message was by User:Paeris
How is a photo less obscene than a line drawing? I have no interest in this topic, article-wise, but I know that anyone with even a little intellect can tell what doggy style is from the illustrations. A photo isn't necessary. If it's not needed, then it's not got much need to be there. I don't think a photo is needed to show it is "done by real people". That's obvious. Hedley 01:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Is less "obscene" if such exists because is not showing breast in photo is more tasteful. Photo against illustration, by this maybe we need replace Orange with Orange line drawing. "but I know that anyone with even a little intellect can tell what *ORANGE* is from the illustrations". Also applies. So your logic is bad, no wrong meaning towards you (you seem have good intelect), but if applies here also applies Orange, and Penis and Vagina, and others that are the same but a little different. This message was by User:Paeris
Nobody has ever been offended by an orange, but many are offended by sexual photos. And the breast being "more tasteful" doesn't mean it's better than an illustrating. It's not meant to be illustrating the breast, nor is it meant to be tasteful at all. It's meant to illustrate doggy style. That's done by the illustration. There's no need for the photo. The photo also has no copyright tag and I assume it's a copyvio. If you think you're right, you can add the photo back, but I expect it will be removed again. You've reverted three times already, meaning that adding it back will violate WP:3RR, as I told you earlier. Hedley 01:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

People are offended many times in some places by Penis and Vagina, but still they have photo. As for copytag, Mr. David Johnson already talk to me and we fix issue very much, so is ok. Yes Orange not offend, but Penis yes. This message was by User:Paeris

  • Just because something happens once does not mean that it should happen several times. Penis is best illustrated by the image because the Misplaced Pages community said so. The Misplaced Pages community has not even began to discuss the inclusion of this image here. Until they do, it shouldn't be included on the article. You should let the community speak. If you add the image to the article again, you do so at your own risk, having been warned of the consequences already. Hedley 01:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you sound antagonize. You keep saying "Don't add again" and I do not add again, I make case for my point and against yours. You make sound like I ignore your warning not add again, when I not add again and listen to you warnings. Please clear it up here, I have not add again and I listen to you warnings. Do not make case for straw man against me, this is rude severly. This message was by User:Paeris

I point out you say I am not consensus, neither are you, so who says who gets place it there. Be bold? Not for me? This message was by User:Paeris

I reiterate again that I don't think this is a very good image to illustrate the position. I couldn't care less about the "censorship/obscenity" issue that might surround it. The image does not better than the line drawings in showing the concept. In fact, the photo fails to show what is going on. You can't actually tell what the man is doing at all. Evil Monkey - Hello 02:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Also Paeris, can you please sign your comments by adding ~~~~ at the end of them. Evil Monkey - Hello 02:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Consensus is when most people think the image should be there. I've spoken to a few people who say it adds nothing new to the article. Therefore I don't personally think that it should be there. Reverting each other will get us nowhere - everyone involved needs to discuss it first, and agree on something. Until then, leave it out of the article. Hedley 02:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Image again

I looked at the image, and noticed the text at the very bottom saying "I am federal worker" by the uploader. I'm guessing he may be dyslexic or english is not his first language, so don't go too hard on him. I corrected the wording so it made more sense and changed the copywrite tag on the image back. Maybe he can just simply change it to "public domain, released by creator of work" though.

As for whether the image should be allowed in the article, well. The only argument seems to be so far that it's "offensive"

It's not an offensive picture unless you find the natural act of human sex offensive...

Read Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored_for_the_protection_of_minors and m:Censorship before making comment please. --Mistress Selina Kyle 02:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Well, the other argument is that it adds nothing to the article. The text and two illustrations are more than enough to inform the reader what "doggy style" is. So that's two reasons. Reasons for so far? The breast is more tasteful, and the photo is less offensive(?!). I don't think the reasons for are very valid. Also, the image has uncertain copyright - The user marked it as a government image at first. I think it's a copyvio, and I'd like to see some proof of otherwise. The only reason I've left it on the article is because I couldn't care less. I just don't want another debate the size of the Autofellatio one to start. Hedley 02:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not offended by the image. I have two concerns, though. First, it is unlikely that the uploader owns the copyright to the image. He certainly isn't a federal employee, and even if he was, that only makes the image public domain if it was created as part of his official duties. This is being discussed on WP:PUI. Second, it's not a very good photo from an illustrative or artistic standpoint. If the copyright status is OK, then it's fine to keep it around until we get a better photo. Rhobite 02:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll also at this point note that it or any sex-related photos don't offend me. I'm here to try and prevent the future edit wars more than anything. I agree with what Rhobite is saying aswell, apart from even with copyright being ok, the photo doesn't add to the article. The illustrations make the act of "doggy style" clear. Hedley 02:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The photo is unnecessary, given the presence of the two drawings which illustrate the topic far better. The chances that this image is free of copyright issues is close to nil. android79 03:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with Android79 above. Also, the picture is of unnecessarily graphic nature, and does not belong in the article. I don't see why anybody would want more than a diagram. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That image (assuming it's not ripped from porn of course) is pretty tame really, as it doesn't actually show penetration. But uh, while we do show images of a penis and a vagina on their respective articles, I don't think any article actually shows intercourse (penetration or not). So yeah, while WP:NOT protected for minors, also unencyclopedic. Picture should be out. —Locke Cole 09:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Very good point. Showing images of actual intercourse is 'worse' than showing just the body part. Hedley 14:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, that photo is pretty tame really. I find the line drawings unencyclopedic. They look like some childs attempt at drawing porn. The proportions are out and there's no colour or life to them. Could we find some more detailed artistic rendition of doggy style intercourse which would be revealing of the sexual act? Much along the lines of the Klimpt drawing ] or the Karma Sutra article. Some people just won't get doggy style unless you show some quality in your visual representations-- and photographs are more telling. This seems to be exactly the reason why some people find photos distasteful; because they convey the idea so entirely. So, if photos are much more telling, they are obviously more encyclopedic. If a detailed painting would be less offensive I'm open to that (as long as it's better than the children's book junk we have at the moment). Perhaps even a photo of one of various statues around the world depicting doggy style sex (there's plenty in The East). Which ever way we go, the photo being disputed is really tame and probably more so than the image used at the bottom of the strap on dildo article. I think the photo should be reinstated until a better quality one comes along. The copyvio accusations seem like wishful thinking masking as copyright paranoia. Has anyone outside of wikipedia actually come forward contesting the copyright? Peace. Metta Bubble 23:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC) I totally agree with Metta Bubble above. Fantom 18:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Protected

I've temporarily protected this page to stop people from edit warring. Please discuss here on the appropriateness of the image (unless, of course, it ends up deleted on copyright grounds). Radiant_>|< 03:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

RFC

I've listed this page at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Society and law. Themindset 08:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this photo is probably doomed so debating it specifically is probably a moot point. However, although I like the photos a lot I think that a clearly presented photo would be useful to wikipedia. Public domain photos of different sex positions could be a good educational resource for the pedias and elsewhere. Kit 11:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

That is the more general question of the RFC here, should drawings be sufficient, or do we need full on photos of real people having sex? Themindset 17:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The more general question is what's the most encyclopedic image? Should we settle for sufficient? If we are discussing a line between informative and pornographic, photographs cover the whole gamut. Surely to promote the idea that drawings are "sufficient" and photographs are "over-sufficient?" is to promote wikipedia censorship? Peace. Metta Bubble 19:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)