Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:01, 14 November 2009

1. Archive 1 (Jan 27,2008-Feb 6,2008)

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If you have any problems, concerns, or just want to comment on my actions and behavior in general, please leave a message here, or if you would like to discuss things, my talk page and email is available for use. A watch page has been created that will list areas that I might have problems with and may need help with. - Ottava Rima

Random heading

I am gone. I don't know when I will be back, but it wont be tonight. See here for my reasons.

If you want to know my case, see here for a glimpse into the hell that I've been put through since I started here. Lar can confirm that I trolled Commons on behalf of those mentioned (as I contacted him through WR to notify him it was me and my intentions).

If I am unable to calm down over this, or if I get immediately banned:

Malleus, chin up. Sandy, you always do a great job. Karanacs, thank God you are about to help Sandy. Moni3, you are cute, haha. Ironholds, you better fix the law pages. Juliancolton, you are a fool for ever thinking about dodging this place. Peter Symonds, I don't have anything to say to you cause you know everything :). Casliber, I finally passed you. Kim Bruning, I hate you but I love you. Durova, you are annoying but only because you tend to be right about stuff that isn't pleasant. Awadewit, cheers on finishing up your doctorate - I hope I beat you of course :). Raul, you are a decent fellow and hopefully there will be many pleasant caturdays. Coincidentally, Lara, you are amusing although cruel :). Giano, continue to produce some nice articles. YellowMonkey, I never knew there could be so many cricket articles haha, but you did it :). Ceranthor, don't stop working as everything you touch seems to be well. GaryKing, keep to the sources but not too close and there will be many more beautiful pages. Ed17, safe sailing! Ceoil, may your beer never go flat and your potato never get cold. Jake, don't let the complainers get you down. Dave souza, you sure know how to make a fine article on classical science. Lar, I hate you but you are still a decent fellow :). Mrathel, sorry if I don't get about to finish the article, but you have my contact info and I can always sent you copy and paste of the texts so I hope the Odes will get finished in some way, or I could come back if I can manage not to be as upset. NW, you are a fun person as with NocturneNoir, and it was nice meeting you two. iMatthew and Garden, the cup was fun and you two were great to talk to. Luna, I doubt you'll ever see this but I think you'd make a fine Arb if you ever ran. Jdelanoy, you would also make a great Arb. Cary Bass, you have to be the most amusing WMF person I've ever talked to, but I've only talked to four of them :). RyanPost, you have a good head on your shoulders. DGG, you always have an interesting viewpoint and I can always trust you to have something reasonable to say. Fritzpol, make sure to run for ArbCom sometime because you have a good sense of fairness. Casliber, I finally beat you :). Wizardman, keep up the work even if it is about baseball haha. Prodego, you are so rigid but it is endearing. Nancy, always keep the faith. John Carter, you always were a great guy. Mitchazenia, I hope there will always be a highway for you to write an article about.

I am sorry to all of the others I've worked with in some way over my time here, and, if I don't come back, well, just know that it was memorable. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Aww you didn't mention your best buddy - me! :( Majorly talk 02:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

How come Casliber gets two but I only got one? :( Good luck Ottava, hope to see you back sometime soon. –Juliancolton |  03:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Dang. I was hoping to get a chance to review some more stuff about Blake; the first GAN got me hooked. Hopefully that will still be possible in the future some day. Best wishes with all that follows, and I certainly hope to talk to you again. NW (Talk) 03:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Best of luck in the rest of your life, and hopefully, you'll feel far better everywhere else you go! Guess I'm stuck with these Fielding articles all by my lonesome :< ɳOCTURNEɳOIR _{talk // contribs} 03:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, with your tenacious nature and firm stance on your beliefs, I think you will only go far in life. I hate to see you go, but in case you don't return, good luck! And now, for the extremely rare latin phrase from me, Ottava, always remember that Fortes fortuna adiuvat. ceranthor 04:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Good luck my friend. I'm sorry I had to support your sanctions, but I hope you believe me when I say that I still respect you. Until It Sleeps 12:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

You may be the first man in all of human history to call me cute. (Although once I had a horrible teacher conference with a 5 ft-tall father who traded money for the good sense God gave a goat, who called me "honeybunny" when I dared disagree with him.) Much success and peace, Friend. --Moni3 (talk) 13:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Harumphh ! He called you cute, but he called me crafty ! Ottava, enjoy some well deserved time off, reflect, be at peace, and don't rush back, but come back renewed. In the past, I've found that takes several weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• I'm very disappointed that you're going to leave me to finish off all those Ainsworth articles oon my own Ottava, but I think I understand how you must be feeling right now. As SandyG says, hopefully after a break you'll feel more positive once again. Despite our disagreeing on just about everything from religion to where commas should go I'll miss you, you cantankerous old sod. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Just great, MF; this time I'll do my homework on your British expressions before I ask "What is a willy". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• A crap. Godspeed, for now, Ottava. Ceoil (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• I'm a bit late to comment, but don't think it's because I don't care. I mean, I don't, but you don't need to think that... >_> I'm just kidding. But about which part? Ponder that. As for your comment that I'm amusing although cruel, I have only this to respond with: You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny? ;) Stay on the Godly path, Ottava, and keep away from the poetry. Lara 19:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Go and opine about some of the evidence I'm putting together down below. I need to figure out what to present for what specific statements. There is a lot more, but it takes time to put up everything. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Best wishes

Best to you on the dissertation and all that follows. Durova 02:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Our paths hadn't crossed before I (casually) looked into these these recent events, but looking at your contributions and your many accolades is enough to tell me you'll be sorely missed. I hope that you'll return one day to contribute once more, and look past all this rubbish. Until such a time, take it easy (imagine life without all the Wikidrama!). All the best for the future. SMC (talk) 04:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help; I learned more from you than from any of the editors who seem to get along so well with each other. As unconventional as you can be at times, no one deserves to be hounded the you have been as of late. I'll contact you with a few sources I found that relate to your topic on Joyce, but I just can't help but think of all the articles that won't be written in your absence. Mrathel (talk) 05:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I have a book called James Joyce: two decades of criticism Ed Seon Givens. New York: Vanguard Press 1963. which contains an essay titled "The Odyssey in Dublin" by S. Foster Damon in which he discusses the subtle influence of the Divine Comedy on Ulysses and argues that the world created by Joyce is "coexistent and interpenetrative" with Dante's. If you have not read it already, it might be worth a look. As for the poem section of the Urn, I apologize for not getting to it before you did, but I fault my sluggish pace to the closeness of the Chargers–Giants game last night:) Mrathel (talk) 16:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

That is great. I'll have to find it. It would be nice to have a body of critics to quote about the connection first so I can move onto my interpretation of it. There is always a problem if you are the first to say something and you have to spend all of your time explaining the background and general stuff and are unable to get to the good stuff. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Rookwood (novel)

Sorry to read the above Ottava. Anyhow, I wanted to ask you if Ainsworth's book describes the length of time that Turpin's journey took? I've sort-of assumed it in Dick Turpin (see the bottom section), but would appreciate confirmation if possible. Best wishes. Parrot of Doom 18:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava's not around for the forseeable future, so let me try to answer. Ainsworth's doesn't give any precise time for the journey. He says that Turpin set off shortly before sunset, and arrived in York to hear the Minster strike six, just as Bleck Bess lay dying, her heart burst. By comparison, he claims that the stagecoach between London and York took four days at that time. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Malleus. I found an online version and read something similar (its awful to read IMO). Parrot of Doom 20:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Ode on a Grecian Urn

Hi! I was invited by Mrathel to take a look at the article and help out. I'm trying to curb some of the "wordiness" and to tighten the article up. Brevity is the soul of wit! I hope you will let me do so! Best! Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 20:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Hearty Congratulations on turning around the referencing quality on Ode on a Grecian Urn. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Advice from someone who unfortunately has run the ArbCom gauntlet

Ottava, I'm busy with FAC today and maybe tomorrow ... if you can, please try not to respond on the Arb case until I have time to put together my pearls of wisdom for you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not in a good enough mood to be able to respond to some of the things there. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I have sent you an email. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I haven't gotten to this yet (still busy at FAC and FAR), but you're already breaching some of the very advice I intend to give you :) Stop moaning on Wiki; that digs you into a deeper hole! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

WR

Ottava, you should not give one flying fuck about what it written there, because it just does not matter. Its not exactly life and death what they think. Ceoil (talk) 18:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The major reason people edit Misplaced Pages Review is to try and get people to read their blogs (because no other tosser would ever read them), because they are seriously mental ID fanatics or because they got banned from Misplaced Pages for being clueless twats. Every one else edits WR because they are nice and just honestly can't believe the hardcore people over there can be that damn screwed up in real life. As Ceoil said - ignore it. Pedro :  Chat  21:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Well ... I read WR because I think it's funny, and it often points me to discussions I wouldn't have been aware of otherwise. But never take personally anything said about you over there :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I love reading WR - In particular the posts by the aformentioned types who ironically tend to spend most of their time berating people who edit wikipedia as having nothing better to do. Comedy at its most sublime. Pedro :  Chat  22:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I never take anything personally that's said about me over there, much less about anyone else. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I am only bothered by those who post there, opine at great lengths, then pretend to be neutral, objective, and uninvolved when matters happen on Wiki. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

You take it too seriously. There are only two opinions that matter; your own, and those of the editors you respect. For instance, I have no respect for anyone who would say behind my back what they would not have the courage to say to my face, so their opinion doesn't matter to me. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

PS. Listen to SandyG's good advice. Without friends like her none of us could survive here on wikipedia. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, stop wearing your heart on your sleeve in public view! You suffer from the same rose-colored glasses, Pollyanna syndrome that I do (but I'm fighting back my inner Pollyanna :) Still busy, but will get to this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I am unable to be apathetic over things. Tis my greatest fault. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Then go away for a week or two, and come back when you can, because believe me, you cannot get through an Arb case unless you learn more emotional detachment. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Truly, a break is most excellent for getting things on Misplaced Pages into perspective. I practice it frequently (although sometimes not by choice, such as my being sick this last week...) Take a break, read Blake. That's always good for the soul. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, seeing as how it is my natural disposition I don't think time away will make me become apathetic in any kind of regard. I think it will require large doses of soma or some surgery to "fix" my caring about things. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I repeat: you will not be effective in an arb case unless you find a way to become more detached about Wiki editing. Two weeks off always cures me :) If you go into an arb emotional over this and thinking you're going to right all the wrongs of Wiki, you will fail. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Amen. Even I wouldn't armour up and ride my charger to stick a lance in that windmill, and I'm just about as obstinate and pig-headed as Ottava. (That's a compliment in my book btw). --Malleus Fatuorum 00:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with failure. I am not here to "win" anything. I would prefer to be true to myself and accept being removed from the community than to continue to lie about who I am. Regardless, if they think I am an awful, horrible person, then maybe I shouldn't be here anyway. All I want is a straight forward process in which people at least pretend to be fair and impartial. If it decides that I don't belong, then that is quite fine. After all, this is an encyclopedia and what is best for the encyclopedia is what should happen and be accepted by all. If I ask others to promote what is in the encyclopedia's best interest, why should I not do so simply because it would result in my removal? I strive to promote only what is best, and I wont change that simply because the result would be in me no longer being around. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Have I missed something? I often do. Are you not who I think you are? --Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Who do you think I am? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm Batman. HalfShadow (talk) 00:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The person who emailed me a few times in the past, under what I took to be a real name. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

But Ottava. <sigh> If you go into it with that attitude, not only will you have a miserable time for the next three months, but you will most assuredly fail to accomplish anything. People are not going to pretend to be fair and impartial, much less achieve that ! For god sakes, this is Wiki! Your ass is going to be slammed by a ton of people who've never written an article, much less an FA; you'd best know yourself and your objectives before going in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts

Sandy, if people slam me people will slam me. Will I care about it? Yes. Will I be upset? Yes. How can someone not be. However, that doesn't mean that I wont accept the outcome, or want to play any kind of game, change who I am, or do anything except be who I am. If people want to judge me, let them judge me. When I stated this, it is because I saw something painful. People say that Misplaced Pages isn't real life, or that its just a game, or many other things. In doing so, they forget that we are all human working on a human project. We all have flesh and blood, we all think, and we all feel. Our words and interactions matter, and they always will matter.

This is a community like any other. It has problems and it has strengths. It is capable of beauty and it is capable of ugliness. It is capable. When I came here, it was with the desire to fix a lot of pages that I deal with every day. I hear from students and professors that Misplaced Pages is used by many college kids and a lot of the important pages in my field were severely lacking. I was invited to use the literary encyclopedia, but I chose Misplaced Pages instead to deal with this material in an optimum manner. Looking back on my contributions, I have worked with a lot of great people and have accomplished a lot of work. No one can ever take that away, no matter how harsh they are, no matter how cruel they act. Words can never destroy the memories that I have, and the times I have shared with a lot of contributors. There is good, and there is bad, but there always will be both. I have enjoyed my time here as I feel that I have accomplished something.

If people want me gone, then it is their right. There will always be popular artists and there will always be unpopular artists, and taste will always dominate society. People cling to their groups and to their views because that is human. We are all concerned about our appearance, about our standing, and we struggle every day to ensure that we are at a better place. But I don't care for such a struggle. I recognize it and I understand it, but I seek to be free of its restraints. I have gone out of my way to defend those who have hurt me, sometimes to a great deal, simply because in that instance, they deserved to be defended. Mattisse never did anything good for me, but people needed to be reminded that she was human. Rjanag upset me a great deal, but people needed to know that he would help out in an area that was needed. Peter Damian always use to criticize me in some of the worse ways, but he still had a damn good point about the philosophy articles. Even poor DougsTech was shoved out simply for expressing a view that too hit me.

There are many others that I have tried to defend or help that never bothered once to do anything good for me. But why did I do it? Because I felt that someone must say something even if that voice is ignored. Someone needs to stand up, even if the response is to be snuffed out. Without that voice, where is our humanity? What is our society? If all we do is try to destroy one another, what have we really accomplished. Sure, we have a few nice, shiny articles, but that is meaningless if the ends were ruining thousands of people.

And if ArbCom feels that I have destroyed people in the process of creating articles, then I don't belong. If they feel that I have treated people horribly, sinned more than I have been sinned against, and have denied the people of their just grain, then maybe I should go. If I have committed these crimes, then there is no place for me. I will always care, and I will always seek what is best. If that happens to be my being removed from the project, then I am willing to accept that completely. I have already stated that if any one Arbitrator says I shouldn't be here then I will go. I have stated that if you, Raul, Yellow Monkey, or anyone at WMF says the same, then I will go. I have left my fate up to their supreme judgment, as all of you are the essence of what makes this community - ArbCom is the law, the FA people are the material, and the WMF is the structure. If I have made it clear to any one of these pillars that I am a problem, then so be it. Let them state it and I will gladly accept their judgment. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to be out all morning, OR, so my response to you is still delayed :) But, quickly, I think your framing of the issues is too black-and-white, and that may be affecting your approach to this. I think it highly unlikely that ArbCom is going to "want you gone". Will you end up with some editing restrictions? I dunno. Will you be able to continue writing FAs? Most likely. How miserable do you want to make yourself during the ArbCom, and how do you want to be able to carry on after it closes? You cannot right all the wrongs of Wiki, or the world, for that matter. In the arb, people will say horribly unfair and inaccurate things about you, and you will be forced to defend yourself simply because they can say it and it will be on record (for an example, look at G guy's latest speculative and humorous posts about me at the Request for clarification, and how much he either doesn't know or doesn't say or can't or won't see, but now I've got to answer because it's there, and that's a phenomenal waste of my time). If you let it get to you emotionally, it will take too much of a toll on you, and you will be in a lose-lose situation. More later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

There have been multiple ban attempts by the people involved trying to get rid of me. There are constant attacks on me, saying all I do is destroy the place, etc. If they don't want me gone, then they will have to do a lot to stop all of these actions. I don't do anything now that they can "restrict" unless they don't mind the fact that a lot of pages wont be worked on - I already work on my pages with other people, and I don't involve myself in disputes that I wasn't dragged into. And restrictions? People have already been treating me as if I was under harsher restrictions than anyone like Mattisse was under. Even when someone had clear ArbCom restrictions not to disrupt, Jayvdb said that my actions were equally questionable so I shouldn't pursue it. Obviously, he made it clear that I was under the same exact restrictions. Otherwise, there would be no possible way he could make such a claim. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

This is the best part - the thing is, I am -always- editing content. I don't take breaks. I always produce more and more. Like right now, I am busy prepping some more stuff on Blake, Coleridge, and Keats while getting some other stuff ready for this current FAC and stuff for the next. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, for gosh sakes, Ottava; I'm going to lose patience with you soon. If the peanut gallery upsets you, stop reading it/them. This is the internet: anyone can say anything, and they will. And they sure will in the arb case. ArbCom is not going to ban someone with your content contributions. As to your editing restrictions vs. Mattisse's, it likely just didn't occur to anyone to add her to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions because the case was handled in such an uncoventional manner; presumably, they'll fix that loophole, since there were clearly restrictions, albeit framed as part of a "mentorship" and "plan". If you can't get to a point where you can attain some emotional distance from your detractors, all of my advice about ArbCom is going to fall on deaf ears. You're not listening to me :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, ditto everything that SandyG is telling you. Relax, calm down, step away from the keyboard. You're only making it worse for yourself otherwise. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 17:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree with both, although I would have used "dingus" in my edit summary in an endearing way. Recall what Eleanor Roosevelt said: "No one can insult me without my consent". You allow people to insult you by taking offense. You can't control what people will say, but you can control, with some work, the legitimacy you give to their comments. The ones that we consider legitimate, in my experience, are the ones that affect us most. Consider the source, however. Editors whose motivations you do not respect because they have conflicts of interest, they have no idea what they're talking about, they are clearly embittered on WR by being site banned or indef blocked and have interest only in trashing Misplaced Pages, or are simply raving nutters: should they have the power and ability to spin you like a cheap top? To some extent, you are allowing this to happen. Learn the power of "Ok", "Good to know", "So what?", "Whatever", and the grandmaster of them all, "I don't care". These take loads off. Think I write crappy articles? I don't care. My track record speaks otherwise and your assessment is clearly flawed. Think I make POV edits? You're so wrong it doesn't register on my radar to respond. Think I'm part of some cabal? Feel free to think it, but that doesn't make it true. Call me all the names that might adequately describe me? So what? My articles kick ass while you're calling me names and not writing anything. So chill, man. Seriously.

Did you ever hear the joke about the man in the flood who climbs on his roof and prays to be saved? A guy comes by in a rowboat and the man on the roof says "No, God will save me." A helicopter comes by after the water rises and the man on the roof says, "No, thanks. I have faith that God will save me." Another dude in a canoe comes by as the water is lapping against the eaves and the man on the roof turns him down, saying his faith is strong and God will see him through. So he drowns and in heaven asks why God didn't save him. God says, "I sent you a rowboat, a canoe, and a helicopter, asshole." So...in my view, you're getting a whole marina of boats here. --Moni3 (talk) 17:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Eww, Eleanor Roosevelt. :( Regardless, if people are insulting me, their insults reflect a problem that either exists with me, with them, or with both. It doesn't matter how true the comments are, as the reaction exists. By the way, Moni, if I said I wanted to join you in your boat, would you take it the wrong way? :) Ottava Rima (talk) 17:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't frequent this page; have no appetite for Mr. Rima's endless grandiosity, but someone emailed me about this latest booboo. So, what the heck is "Eww, Eleanor Roosevelt" supposed to mean? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Fowler, how are your comments helpful or necessary at this time? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Please don't blame me for Ottava Rima's indelicacies. Here is someone who can barely write English at the high-school level, who endlessly tells improbable stories about how ArbCom knows all about his expertise in English literature, and you guys are feeding his ego. For what? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

OR thinks she's hot but is conflicted about it. I wouldn't take your joining me in my boat any way at all. Just don't rock the boat baby. Don't tip the boat over. Rock on witcha bad self. --Moni3 (talk) 19:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Moni, thank you for a timely answer to Fowlers most pertinent question. Many of us who have been thrilling to the Passion of the Rima were perplexed by his "Ewww" reference. Crafty (talk) 19:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Fowler, I am confused: did someone email you because he took Eleanor Roosevelt's name in vain? Perhaps you can use your superb writing skills to formulate an argument of some sort rather than just making random attacks. Better yet, how about working on a few articles in the mean time, spreading the seeds of good grammar like the Johnny Appleseed of Misplaced Pages that you claim to be:) Mrathel (talk) 19:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Fowler, your comments are most unhelpful, quite cruel, unwarranted and tantamount to a personal attack. If you cannot be constructive please go away. I don't like getting drawn into these dramas, but honestly, I find such negative comments abhorrent. Graham Colm 20:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

My apologies to Ottava Rima. Never having been on this page, I was shocked by what appeared (to me at least) to be endless enabling of one editor's acting out. Of course, there is an underside to acting out, and, frankly, I found OR's posts to be disturbed (psychologically). In that respect, I feel for the man. The situation, in my view, requires helpful intervention, not enabling. But, perhaps that is not possible on Misplaced Pages. I'm now of the view that the last thing Ottava Rima needs right now is ArbCom, whether it goes his way or not. Perhaps a community advised period of Wiki-rest in conjunction with email support from those who know him better would be the best thing. I mean this in all sincerity. (My last post here.) Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Ottava and I are friendly, and he's just as prone to making mistakes as anyone. My discussions with him over IRC have made me found him to be pleasurable, courteous, and articulate, if a bit silly. If I may, I'd like to compare him to Malleus - he's an excellent writer, and he tends to be in either a good or bad mood. There's no medium.

His writing isn't doggerel, and I've found it a pleasure to read. I've abstained from the discussions as a friend of Ottava - and I think we should leave him to his own decisions. Best, ceranthor 02:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Can you produce five consecutive sentences he has written that without the benefit of refurbishment by others qualify as brilliant prose? Show me the output of that vaunted good mood. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Gracious, F&F. Would you be sated if Ottava Rima's efforts were disparaged by the Misplaced Pages community at large? Would that qualify as making you happy enough to stop coming to his talk page and making comments like these? Is there really any editor who would benefit by reading such criticism? GrahamColm asked you to stop once. I reiterate that request. --Moni3 (talk) 16:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) No worries, I'm taking this page off my watchlist. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, with all due respect, I don't think Ottava ever asked for opinions on his editing patterns; since they've been scrutinized before, it's not right to be commenting them at his talk page right now. If you'd like to, post at the Arbitration Case (assuming you haven't already). Ottava is undergoing a period of time where he needs to work constructively and throwing insults around won't help. Best, ceranthor 02:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Not an enemy*

• More like that maiden aunt who lectures you about your clothes and school report, and always asks when are you going to get a haircut/married/a proper job etc

You may regard this as an intrusion, and I will understand if you do, but I wanted to let you know that I've said what I wanted to say, and if this does go before the Arbs, I haven't got any more to add than I've already said. I don't want you banned - for what it's worth I would be very cross if that was the outcome. Banning is for people who contribute nothing, who only disrupt. I don't even want you to stop disagreeing with people, or putting your own viewpoint forward. All I am suggesting is that you need to moderate the way you say things. Leave aside WP:CIVIL - try speaking as you would be spoken to. Or imagine you are speaking to your boss. Or a fellow commuter. Or a Hell's Angel in a bar that you really don't want to annoy. Whatever helps.

Also, if you'll take an insight from someone who has worked for years in the complaints department (and believe me, people complain to English local authorities about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING) - it really helps to get your problem over and be taken seriously if you

• Stay in the present - don't go into what happened in the past unless it is completely relevant (I had complainants who regularly started letters with "in 1972..." )
• Don't repeat yourself to every new person
• Don't throw in the kitchen sink
• Be very precise about what you want to happen
• Don't divide people into 'for' you and 'against' you. Your greatest allies may be those who don't really care about (or for) you but who do care about due process, natural justice or simply good order.
• Do be prepared to compromise, to let some things go in order to achieve the clear goal you identified earlier.

You may, of course, simply delete this if you prefer. I will not hold it against you or bring it up. I will have satisfied myself by having said it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

You probably know this already, but

your arbitration case has been opened. Bwrs (talk) 23:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Motion to reopen ArbCom case "Mattisse"

ArbCom courtesy notice: You have received this notice because you particpated in some way on the Mattisse case or the associated clarification discussion.

A motion has recently been proposed to reopen the ArbCom case concerning Mattisse. ArbCom is inviting editor comment on this proposed motion.

For the Arbitration Committee, Manning (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

My case

Below I will be putting various pieces of evidence. I would like responses from a limited amount of people in regards to the wording of the evidence and other such things so that I can ensure that they are put forward in a clear, straight forward, and neutral manner. Of these people, I would like to invite SandyGeorgia, Karanacs, Ceoil, Malleus, Moni3, GrahamColm, Kim Bruning, and Iridescent to opine. I may add others to this list as I see fit.

Ottava, I took a full day off to cry over my dog with cancer; it will take me a while to catch up now. It would be helpful if you set up your evidence in a subpage, as I did here; then others can comment on the talk page there, keeping your talk page free for other business. This particular evidence is much too long: you need to cut it by at least half. Arbs need to see key points, and you've got to decide what you want to accomplish with this Arb case. More later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

As I stated, I'm not posting the below. I am waiting until people like you can weigh in and determine what shows anything necessary and how to present it neutrally. I'm just compiling everything below. And I don't mind if people fill up my talk page. :) But seriously, if you have real life problems, please take all the time you need. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence about my old block log

1. My first block - 02:55, 30 January 2008 by Kafziel - 24 hours ‎(3RR violation on Treaty of Tripoli).

   According to the log , I made two reverts restoring a ref and again, then made two back to back edits in a completely different section and . I was a brand new user only editing since that month and that was one of the first pages I worked on, which I expanded and was trying to improve areas -besides- that which was being fought over. According to my talk page, I received no warning and no contact until I was blocked. The block report message didn't even deal with the article I was working on.

2. My second block - 21:45, 21 March 2008 Shell Kinney - 24 hours ‎ (Edit warring: 3RR on Nigger, edit warring across multiple articles http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Ottava_Rima_mass-editing_articles_without_consensus

   My "edit warring" was changing incorrect uses of portmanteau when there was a case of a word being a compound word, an acronym, or something else that was clearly not a portmanteau. The admin, Shell Kinney, is a prominent friend of Vary, an individual I led consensus against at the Cloverfield monster page when she put forth that a source without an author, a date, or any copyright information could be declared a reliable source. After my block, she redid the consensus and had her way. I complained about her treatment against me in her email and said that I would send in a complaint to the WMF about her behavior that would be perfectly legal and acceptable. She took that as a "legal threat" and proceeding to unblock me then attempted to rewrite the NLT page to make it stick.

3. The Ryulong block has been dealt with else where.
4. 15:53, 20 June 2008 by Moreschi - indefinite ‎ (Persistent tendentious editing: will unblock when this editor actually acknowledges he's doing something wong)

   As I explain here, this is the result of a dispute between Geogre and I with Moreschi claiming: "Endorse deletion. Misplaced Pages doesn't do due process - we do common sense and clue. The article was clearly unsuitable, so why the hell would you want to restore it? I've done deletions like this before, and there's nothing wrong with doing so, provided the encyclopaedia really does benefit. Moreschi2" Obviously, the community disagreed. I explain the rest leading up to the block. I was blocked because I insisted on a talk page that having 12 sources by credible academic publishers and scholars who are experts on Christopher Smart is more than enough to declare that Christopher Smart was a mason and that he deserved to be on the list of Free Masons.

   The original ANI thread, which shows that it is purely a content dispute. Bishonen says I need to be restrained. It is clear that Geogre and Bishonen are friends and have been for a long time. Geogre adds: "Ottava Rima has consistently acted like a contributing troll.". Moreschi states: "both the edit-warring on List of Freemasons and the trolling on the WikiProject talk page". His statement follows both Geogre's and Bishonen's claim, but adds no evidence and declares my comments as trolling. You can see the people who agree with Moreschi and have consistently claimed I do nothing but troll, including LessHeardvanU. Kim Bruning defends me: "Well, the thing is that apparently Ottava Rima actually has this whole bunch of books in front of him anytime he writes about something. So I'm pretty sure that whatever statements he makes are actually correct." You can also see the use of Geogre's sock puppet Utgard Loki in that conversation.

5. 0:41, 31 July 2008 by Nandesuka - 8 days ‎ (Disruptive editing)

   Nandesuka, a known friend of Geogre and who has edited in a manner to push a particular POV (in which I was later forced to aid in), blocked per this. As you can see, Ncmvocalist continued to "archive" a WQA thread even though one of the filers did not feel that the matter was resolved. WQA is so that people who have problems can find others to help resolve an issue and are not closed or completed until the filer believes that the help is achieved. Closing and archiving WQA has no basis and is hostile, especially when it is premature and edit warred back in. As you can see, these blocks are mostly excused by stating that I have a long block log (at this point, it would be four blocks). You can also see in that matter that Risker was involved. It is well known that Risker is close friends with Geogre and Bishonen.

   Following that matter, I was contacted to aid in edit and POV war against User:Haiduc. As you can see in threads like this, Risker warns me, but once Nandesuka steps in Risker backs off. As you can see, Nandesuka and I begin to tag team Haiduc and any of his supporters. More fighting occurred here and here (with Geogre and Nandesuka). As a side note, I also helped Nandesuka here in order to get support for his removal of an image that was strongly contested. I also trolled commons to support Nandesuka and to distract people who were upset by his deletion of the image at ANI. These actions were encouraged to ensure that calls for Nandesuka to be desysoped or punished were not able to get traction.

Evidence for Folantin/Moreschi problems

1. Ludovico Ariosto

   After trying to expand the page, Folantin changes the use of "Christian epic" to "Romantic epic". I revert because it is classified as "Christian" to distinguish it from "Classical" epic. Reverted then removed completely after saying "OK, playtime is over". Moreschi then adds it back in. I explain here but come under attack. I take it to the fringe noticeboard to discuss the issue of verified and trusted scholars versus translators and non experts in the specific area. Folantin still insists that a translator or generalized critic of Italian poetry is as qualified as a scholar that specializes in classifying and characterizing epics. It was archived without an answer to this question, which has been asked throughout.

   Participants that sided with Folantin are: Moreschi, dougweller, Akhilleus, Itsmejudith, Paul B, Dbachmann. Who does not side with them? Geogre. Threats about blocking me by Moreschi like this at 00:47, 1 January 2009 disappear after it is clear that Geogre will be siding with me per what I have done for him.

   Eventually, the conversation breaks down with Folantin attacking a page of mine at Wikiversity as showing that I don't know what I am talking about. Here is the first time, and here is a recent instance of it. The page was never improved.

2. Itsmejudith ran for RfA

   I opposed per her working together with Moreschi, which, from looking at the Fringenoticeboard, happened quite often. Moreschi, her nominator, went to great lengths to protect her in the RfA, answer for her, and other problems which resulted in many people agreeing with me and costed her the RfA. Dougweller and Frank co-nommed.

3. I ran for RfA

   At the end, I put in notes after the fact about where different people had a history with me. I told people I would not argue with them about their opposes and waited until my statements would not affect anyone's judgment. Folantin removes the comment I made about him. Rjanag, who is nothing close to being my friend reverted. Folantin reverts against Rjanag and says "Hmm. I think the comment was added after the time the RfA was due to close so this is moot. There was little chance of replying to it. Classy." Xeno undoes this action, and he is definitely not my friend.

   Antandrus opposed me and I posted this on their talk page. Folantin attacks me and then also uses the Morte D'Arthur attack, which appeared both at Talk:Ludovico Ariosto and just recently even though it was a simple list and had nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. I strike my comment and leave, after emailing Antandrus and them saying that they didn't care what their friend said on their talk page. I realized then that Antandrus's oppose meant something far more than someone simply seeking an answer.

4. 18th century/Persian Empire

   I have built the 18th century page from 30k to 47k and reworked and upkept it for quite a while. At 15:52 21 August 2009, I revert Folantin's change from "Persian Empire" to "Iran", as the country Iran was not founded until the 20th century and I pointed out: "The Persian Empire is not Iran. Iran is a territory. Persia is a nation that owned multiple territories." I was reverted at 18:50 21 August 2009 by Folantin with the statement: "Try reading some history." I investigated and say that Alefbe removed the Persian Empire page and Wizardman reverted. Folantin reverts that claiming that the article is being fixed, even though there is no article placed which is standard for fixing articles. Following after that is a large edit war in which many random people restore the page but only the same small group removes the page again.

   On the talk page, you can see multiple straw polls, two RfCs, and the rest, with non determining consensus to delete the page. This is the original thread by Dbachmann. Folantin and Alefbe agree. R'n'B and BritishWatcher do not. Dekimasuよ! makes a statement about a redirect which can be seen as support for Dbachmann's statement but states that it is problematic that the users aren't fixing the redirects that are now a problem. At 20:08, 21 August 2009 I join in the discussion and state that the page should stay and be fixed and not blanked or destroyed. Warrior4321, who I never met before then, also agrees with me. Fullstop comes in and can be seen as supporting Dbachmann/Folantin/Alefbe's version of the page. Wizardman, who originally reverted, stated that my comments about history were correct. john k disagrees and we fight about the nature of empires. Shoemaker's Holiday comes in and comments on it being a highly visable topic needing a page, I had contact with him through the WikiCup and all of the final contestants kept a close eye on each others contributions. Juliancolton comes in, who I have had far more contact with, but have also fought with. Dekimasu then states that the old article is more useful. Warrior 4321 then wants a redirect. Etc, etc etc. Akhilleus, Antandrus, and others appear in related discussions.

5. Many of those involved in these matters have a long history of working together.

   Folantin and Dbachmann have edited 31 article talk pages together. The only close disagreement is from 2007, with Dbachmann, Folantin, and Fullstop all discussing an issue. March 2009 they side together. Agreement in 2007 and another with a sign that they met primarily from the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard.

   Folantin and Moreschi share 49 article talk pages in common. Moreschi defends Folantin August 2008. Their relationship can be traced to the Opera wikiproject with them closely working together since April 2007 and siding with each other in discussions since April 2007 and possibly as far back as 2006 and here.

   Accusations of WikiBullying against Moreschi and others have a very long history, including from April 2008 where Moreschi is criticized for working with Dbachmann.

6. Gwen Gale's block

   - Gwen Gale claims this is a personal attack. Gwen Gale has a long relationship with both Bishonen and Antandrus, making friendly comments on both of their talk page for a very long time. Furthermore, Gwen Gale and I argued about her making a similar block against Malleus. Even those who have a history of not liking me, such as Roux and Chillum, disagreed with the block. Folantin and Antandrus try to defend the block.

7. After ArbCom made a ruling regarding the desysopping of Lara because of her involvement with sock puppetry, I put up an RfC calling for similar standards to be held against Bishonen for any involvement with Geogre's sock puppetry.

   - Moreschi deletes the page without an AfD or valid CSD then a friend of Moreschi's blocks me when I create a different version of it. Of these votes: "Support, per recreation of invalid RFC. But since I've disagreed with Ottava a few times, I'm clearly involved, so ignore this. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)" Folantin, Ncmvocalist, Antandrus, Guy, and Joopercoopers are among the block proposal along with Crafty, Everyking, Fut.Perf., Verbal and others.

   It was placed for deletion at MfD as Attack page/harassment. Not a good faith RfC and more grandstanding on OR's part --Jtrainor. After Unitanode states "little more than an excuse for Ottava to take out his anger on Bishonen." I ask him to provide proof that I am taking out my anger. SarekOfVulcan involves himself in the matter.

   I go to Wikiquette over comments I felt were inappropriate asking for someone to intervene as the individuals were unwilling to provide proof or strike their claims. Jack Merridew, on ArbCom restrictions not to commit any disruption, labels it as "drama". I undo and SarekOfVulcan reverts it. I undo because there were no procedures to close nor is there anything at WQA saying such things were appropriate. Like Sarek, another voters at the MfD reverts me. Ncmvocalist puts up a tag claiming I am forum shopping and I remove what I consider as a personal attack but do not undo the close. Jack Merridew considers my actions disruptive and puts back in the claim that I am forumshopping. Jack Merridew is one of Moreschi's mentees and has worked with him on many things. I took it up at AN but the thread was later merged over into ANI even though it had nothing to do with Bishonen, Risker, or any of that mess, but simply trying to deal with people accusing me of hate and those trying to close the WQA seeking to deal with that.

8. The thread is here.

   Moreschi claims I am forumshopping. Jack Merridew says I shouldn't care what he does because he made some edits to a page of mine on a different project. John Vandenberg expresses the same sentiment. WQA is a place to see neutral people to help calm civility problems and repeatedly closing it like that causes the problems to escalate, especially when users are involved. Verbal and others who have appeared above appear to claim the close was inappropriate. Many uninvolved people, like Rd232 and Ikip, say it was not.

Discussion

Ottava, I think you are approaching this incorrectly. The arbcom is not about merit of argument, its about approach. You have an undeniable quick tendancy to personalise, first with the multiple use of the word "innappropriate", then to accuse absurdity or weak mindeness before moving on to questioning of motives, character and cabalism, before rounding off with treats of ANI or a block. You have surely noticed this pattern. I think more self awarness is needed for a crediable defense. Ceoil (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm mostly looking for suggestions on wording the above evidence or what to use and what not to use. It is incomplete but it is a start. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but its almost beside the point at this stage. Its not about content. Ceoil (talk) 02:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The ArbCom isn't about content and the links above deal with the history of my blocks. The Arbitrators made it clear that they want to look deeper into what was behind them. If you think I shouldn't bother putting up anything, then I wont. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Doing what I say is the road to hell, I'm often told. However, my impression is that given the manner things are unfolding, agruging point by point would be counter productive, and likely further embitter and entrench. Its the way you argue, not what you argue, is what this is about. Ceoil (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

And the appearance of the same people over and over, saying the same things, and expressing that I should be banned for over 11 months now? Ottava Rima (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No, there are now a very wide number of people cited with similar experiences. Tbh, I think they are only a fraction. There is a tail of very hurt and wounded people behind a great many of your talk discussions that I beginning to think you are not aware of. Ottava, most people are good people, and volenteer with the best of intentions. They might not always be correct, but only a small amount are deluded or as malevolent as you so often characterise. Ceoil (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I would look again, Ceoil. Chillum's evidence is actually in my favor. 11 people in the "warning list" are directly tied to the same group of people beyond a doubt. If you remove all of the "warnings" that aren't actual warnings, that number becomes almost all of the actual warnings. Like this one by Pedro is definitely not a warning, but Chillum lists it as one. And then you can see directly below, WMC attacks me without even looking. If you look at all of those situations, you will definitely see that I was not the aggressor, and that the "warnings" (if there were any) were completely unfounded or inappropriate. Now, where have I said people are malevolent or deluded? I've only stated that a few people have been working together and pushing towards my ban. That is obvious from the above and doesn't have anything to do with malevolence. It is quite natural as it is a common attribute of humans to join together in groups to try and remove someone who they feel is a threat. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you want a randon diff, . Right or wrong...do not talk like that, to anyone. It weakeans you crediability and position, for a start. I have no interest in Chillum, I do not regard his evidence and ignored it. Ceoil (talk) 03:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk like one? Calling someone when they claimed that another page verifies them when they just altered that other page to verify them? That comment is completely appropriate and if that weakens any credibility, then I can only question what the word "credible" now means as it no longer means what the dictionary says. I didn't cuss nor attacked them. I was very straight forward at pointing out their impropriety and I did what was right in saying that I would take it to ANI because the action was highly inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Look, whatever. I'm asking you to look at patterns not instances. You escalate to the same degree wheather over a comma, or international wiki based conspiracy. You should be aware of that. Arguments can be engaging. ] (talk) 03:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Instances make up patterns. If someone is edit warring across various pages, altering pages to claim that another page defends them, and has their friends join in, and this happens at Persian Empire, Ludovico Ariosto, etc, then those instances make up a pretty strong pattern. Are you going to help me craft the language or are you going to just chastise me about my faults? If you want to comment about faults of mine, please create your own section in the evidence. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• By the way, I've made 8667 edits over the past 6 months. I've entered into hundreds of conversations. There are only a few people in which there can be described as having any hostility, and they are the same people that appear over and over. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to comment, because as you already know I want you to survive here. You asked, I replied. Ottava, there is a definate problem in your approach. I hope you can face up to it. Ceoil (talk) 03:57, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I asked for people to help me craft neutral language. Nothing more or less. If you want to accuse me of being a horrible person that wont really accomplish any of the above. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm giving advice to a friend. Thats the framework I'm working under. "horrible person"? Pha - for god sake dont think like that. I had openions about you before the arb, and unlikely they will be changed after. To go back to my origional post before this got so nuanced, I think a point by point argument is the wrong approach. Ceoil (talk) 04:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not asking for an approach as I don't want an approach. I only want people to tell me what is necessary to point out and how to word it so that it is fair and neutral. I only want evidence to be heard. I don't care about the result, tactics, or anything of that such. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If I may comment...

Ottava, I think Ceoil has a point there, though I'm afraid I don't know enough about how ArbCom cases work to know what exactly you're expected to say and/or respond to. If I were you, I'd re-do the above to be something more along the following lines (at least if my impression of you is fairly close to correct):

1. I am passionate about my work here on Misplaced Pages, and consider it a part of my academic pursuits.
2. I am an academic, and as such I am accustomed to passionate academic debate, and hold myself and my debate partners to a high standard of background knowledge and etiology.
3. I realize (since I've been told on several occasions) that people often feel I get a bit to "rough" in debate.
4. I have, over the past <whatever amount of time>, I have noticed that the same set of people invariably step into debates I am involved in, to the point where I feel I am "being watched". (N.B.: "stalk" and the like are rather inflammatory terms)
5. I have come to feel over time that these people are making an organized effort to discourage me from continuing my work on Misplaced Pages. Whenever I try to bring this up, I am accused of incivility.
6. I often feel my efforts are unappreciated and dismissed by certain parts of the community, but I suspect there are many more who do appreciate my efforts. I'm therefore unsure whether it's just a small portion of the community that has strong objections to me, or whether there is a consensus that I'm playing too rough.
7. I hope to get some guidance from these proceedings.

I could be totally off-base, of course... YMMV ;-). --SB_Johnny |  17:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer not to have any of my feelings involved in the matter, nor put ArbCom in a situation where they would be measuring anything based on my feelings. I would rather have ArbCom be given plain, neutral facts and let them express their own judgment. If the facts do not support my actions here, then they do not. What I personally think should have no bearing on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's your behavior, not the facts, that is the issue they'll be addressing. You act as you do in these situations because you feel as you do about these situations. If NYB's question to you is a good cue, I think they might be looking for a way to address your concerns (so that you feel at home creating your content), because your contributions are appreciated and they're looking for a good path to suggest for you that will keep the peace. Your feelings matter a lot, actually... as do others' feelings. I'm reasonably certain that it's your preference for facts and willingness to ignore feelings in debate that have brought you here.

You're a gentleman and a scholar, Ottava. But Misplaced Pages doesn't necessarily qualify as an academic environment in the way you're used to. It's more of a hobby for many, if not for most. --SB_Johnny |  19:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

My behavior can be adequately shown in evidence by others. I am sure they will put up everything they can see or find. I only have 200 words that I can use to place up any evidence, and I would merely want to fill in the historical gaps that were left out in most of the evidence so far as I wish to put up the whole history and not just certain parts of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Understood. Do you want me to weigh in there? My name has come up a couple times, and I'm a bit concerned that the subtleties are lost when it comes to our interactions. Maybe lost on you as well. I'd like to help, if I can. --SB_Johnny |  21:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Our formal relationship ended when I resigned. Beyond that, I don't really see anything that is there. You can provide whatever evidence you want on any topic. My only concern is about finding a way to provide any of the missing information above neutrally or, if no one wants to help find a way, then not presenting it at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I never worry about formalities when it comes to my relationships, but if you think there's "nothing else there", well, waddevuh :-). I'll be around if you need a hand. --SB_Johnny |  22:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I meant in the above that after I stepped down our interaction reduced to near nothing. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you mean our "formal" relationship as far as mentor/custodianship is concerned, that ended the day you were confirmed as a full custodian. If your stepping down was supposed to be some sort of statement, I have no idea what it was. I didn't even know about it until you told me... I'm not exactly spending a lot of time on WV these days :-).

My PU36 Space Modulator need attention, so I better hop on back to my own planet now. Over and out. --SB_Johnny |  23:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Formal meaning having regular interactions or interactions with any kind of relationship. My stepping down was only a direct result in you calling me an idiot. If you are willing to question my judgment in such a matter, then it is a direct show of a lack of confidence, and it would make having any kind of ability to stick around nigh impossible. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Be clear about what you want to happen

Remember me saying that - have a clear outcome in mind at the start. And preferably one that is achievable (I have dealt with too many complainants over the years who either: want whatever set them off not to have happened - sorry, my time machine is in for service - or want heads on poles - which I've known to happen precisely three times. Two were for racist abuse of a member of the public, the other was on the take, in all three cases the employee jumped in advance of the push). Asking "the customer" what they would like to see as a resolution is standard practice, and a good answer can swing the whole tone of the response. If you have a clear idea of what you would like to see happen, and can avoid the heads-on-poles route, I would opine that it is better to say it than not. From long experience, the answer you gave to NYB is unfortunately likely to be misconstrued into either (a) you are pissing about and don't really want to resolve this or (b) nothing short of heads-on-poles would satisfy you. Neither misconstruction is helpful to your case.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Elen, I don't deal with having clear goals or outcomes. The only "objective" I have in regards to Misplaced Pages is to bring 20 authors to FA level and fix their associated pages. Beyond that, I only put up evidence and arguments. The outcome is up to everyone else. This problem has festered in a problematic level since January, and originated further back. It probably will continue without me, as everyone who has put evidence against me has had the same exact problems with other people. I've only had enough going for me that people were unwilling to let me be pushed out as easily unlike quite a few others. If I am pushed out, then I am pushed out. If I am not, then I am not. I do not have power, nor can I control the system. I can only exist within it. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I might suggest that feeling that helpless could be a direct driver for frustration. More importantly, it's not true that you are that helpless. Remember I said "Your greatest allies may be those who don't really care about (or for) you but who do care about due process, natural justice or simply good order." Well, that's what's happening here. NYB is hoping that you can suggest something that he can use as a proposed outcome (he's a lawyer, so I'm pretty certain that's how he's thinking. Lawyers are always looking for potential ways to settle). I don't know if conceptually you can handle developing goals and objectives at this time - stereotypically I find that younger people tend to do well at ideals and principles, and older ones at achievable objectives, but the categories are too wide to be meaningful.

A quick SWOT analysis would appear to give

• Strengths: academic background, access to sources
• Weaknesses: perceived by others to have a bad temper, a tendency to hold grudges, and a habit of creating drama
• Opportunities: prospect of significantly improving the encyclopaedia, enjoyable editing
• Threats: disruptions to editing by disputes, threats of sanctions etc

The analysis suggests that what you should address is the perception of yourself that others have. So one possible response to NYB would be "it would be helpful if ways could be found to reduce the drama/escalations. It would be helpful if I could ask at an early stage for someone to take a neutral look at disputes, and help unpick the subject, and whether any policies are actually being violated." That's just my suggestion, but if you can come up with something, I think it would go very much in your favour. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Elen, I don't feel helpless. I never have, and I probably never will. Saying that I am not the one to judge is only a reflection of myself. I would not have appealed to ArbCom if I did not want -them- to judge. I am tired of it being my perspective vs other people's perspective. I would like a group to put forth what can be an objective perspective so we can all work from that. And Elen, I have asked people to take neutral looks at disputes. I have also informed multiple Arbitrators whenever these disputes that are being used as evidence have come up. I have informed many people who are at Steward level, Crat level, and Admin level. I've even discussed various disputes with WMF staff. Trust me, I have turned to many people for neutral perspectives, and some of them were even those who have sided against me or are close friends with those who have sided against me. In the recent dispute, I asked GWH to look at it and tell me what he thought and he did. For one example that can be seen not too long ago and was public, I asked GWH just these very things. GWH and I do not have a positive history or any kind of positive relationship. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

OK. I respect your views on the matter and will say no more. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, AGK 13:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

As your friend

Ottava, I hope you don't do anything rash. Listen to Sandy and John's advice, let it sink in, and listen to it. I'm not asking you to do anything, in fact, I think if you took a break you wouldn't come back. Best, ceranthor 02:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Rash? Nah. I have a lot going for me in real life, and if the Wiki doesn't want me there is still the old home at the literary encyclopedia if I want to continue writing internet pages. Do I get angry that people speak things that are not right? Sure. But they can't -hurt- me. They can slow down my progress, they can get in my way, etc. Frustrating? Yeah. I'm still prepping sets of pages for 6 different authors while I have some down time. Hopefully I can come out into the WikiCup next year like a lion. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I trust your word, Ottava. May I suggest some Disney movies? They always teach some valuable lessons when real life is catching up with us. :o ceranthor 03:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I was always a fan of the Fox and the Hound (still makes me cry), the Sword and the Stone, and the best one - Sleeping Beauty. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I linked to Pocahontas on my userpage - man, it felt good to get that off my chest. Disney will never be old, or wrong. Have fun with your Disney! ceranthor 03:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Haha, new Disney. :) But yeah, the older stuff was more sentimental, which has a strange appeal to me. Enjoy. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 03:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Ceranthor, but I think The Black Cauldron is a counter-example to "never wrong". *winces in memory* *runs off to watch Candleshoe to take the bad taste out of his mouth*--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

There is a clear difference between Disney (cartoon) and Disney (um, weird puppet/live mation/80s wtf is this - three separate things all suck). ;/ Ottava Rima (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

For some reason, it was a very popular pastime to deconstruct The Little Mermaid in a number of classes I took in my college years. But that's probably the result of gathering too many people who are both overeducated and utterly resistant to acquiring any practical or useful skills. :P MastCell  03:57, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Scary. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Am I the only one who loves Robin Hood best? I watched that every time it came on TV when I was a kid. Now, my daughter is just about old enough for me to get her hooked on that movie too. Yea! :) Karanacs (talk) 14:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Robin Hood is best when combined with the Jungle Book. You have two halves of the same whole - animals acting like people. But yes, Maid Marion was such a fox. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen the Jungle Book. Shame on me. Karanacs (talk) 14:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

But... but... it's a bear necessity!!! Ottava Rima (talk) 14:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure you haven't? :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzyLZYYb2qk --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am glad I am not the only one with an attraction to Disney characters, especially from the old movies. I really thought I was going to end up marrying Belle from Beauty in the Beast when I was a kid, which is why I wanted to grow up and be hairy.I wish at the time someone had told me that blonde German boys didn't have the follicle potential. Mrathel (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Belle? Probably one of the weakest of the choices. :P There are so many princesses, and you pick the pauper. ;/ Ottava Rima (talk) 16:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Arbitration question

This is just to note that I've posted a question to you on the Workshop page of the arbitration case. I'll welcome your response after you've had a chance to give the question some thought. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, please ponder NYB's question carefully, don't fire off an immediate response, and take time to consider whether two or three months in an arb case is really the best use of your time, or whether you can propose a thoughtful way to cut through this and avoid drama. I, again, suggest setting up a subpage in your user space, where you can put your proposed additions to the arb case for others to review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

To answer your statement about a few months - as long as it is in an ArbCom case, it keeps down on the active antagonizing of me. That alone takes a great load off of me and gives me room to breathe. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:53, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Bakshi's back

Ibaranoff24 has brought Ralph Bakshi back to FAC for a record-endangering ninth time. I've weighed in, but am uncertain I have a clear enough perspective on the article at this point. I know dealing with this particular item can be exhausting, but given your past familiarity with the topic, it would be great if you could look it over once more and provide your input. Regards, DocKino (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to participate in SecurePoll feedback and workshop

As you participated in the recent Audit Subcommittee election, or in one of two requests for comment that relate to the use of SecurePoll for elections on this project, you are invited to participate in the SecurePoll feedback and workshop. Your comments, suggestions and observations are welcome.

For the Arbitration Committee,
Risker (talk) 08:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

MuZemike 17:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Nikita_Khrushchev/archive1

Karanacs has asked all reviewers of this article to opine on whether the article is of a proper length or should be cut, either by excising material or starting sub articles. If it is convenient, could you weigh in?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

WR evidence analysis

A review of this argument from WR but an in-depth look at shared AfD edits:

Both deletes (most within a very short time of each other with a large portion being between 40 and 60 minutes of the other):

1. Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 13 (with Antandrus and Geogre)
2. Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 January 18
3. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Totalitarianism
4. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject CoolTalkPages
5. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:The "real" guide to creating articles
6. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Sandbox/The Or Game (2 days apart)
7. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Sandbox/Poetry (2 days apart)
8. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Sandbox/Games (1 day apart)
9. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Mind Benders (Moreschi's nomination)
10. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Holiday Commitee (Moreschi's nomination)
11. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Hangman (Moreschi's nomination)
12. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Coffee Lounge/Games (2 days apart)
13. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza (nominated by Moreschi)
14. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates (same exact statement "Delete/Esperanzify")
15. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wobbly Dog Productions (Moreschi's nomination)
16. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wiccan goddesses
17. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vothic
18. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/University Mall (Little Rock, Arkansas)
19. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United States Presidential trivia (second nomination) (both merge then delete)
20. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Twilight (rapper) (Moreschi nomination)
21. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Turkish Views of the So Called Armenian Genocide (Moreschi closes delete with Folantin voting)
22. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tony Shan
23. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Theory of Electronic Conspiracy
24. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The solaris bug situation
25. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The beard theorum
26. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Wussy Boy Manifesto
27. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Layer Outlook
28. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Gift of Gum
29. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Game Of Drink
30. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Complete List of Harry Potter Books
31. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The American Constitution, A Reactionary Phase in History
32. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Survey of the twentieth century
33. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Suggested clues for the rumour "Paul is dead"
34. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/St Francis of Assisi, Middlesbrough ("Parish cruft")
35. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sonnetology
36. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Snifferanto
37. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sinfonicron (Moreschi nomination, with Guy also)
38. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Scottish inventions and discoveries (Moreschi nomination, failed)
39. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Scientists warning against anthropogenic global warming
40. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Romanian National Vanguard
41. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rodney Pocceschi (Same reasoning - not a memorial)
42. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Resident Evil 4 (film) (3rd nomination)
43. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Re Lear
44. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Randomosity comedy
45. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ragnafilia
46. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/RGC-83 GM Cannon II (Moreschi nomination, failed)
47. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Qur'an and miracles
48. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Quinn's Law (Same reasoning - non-notable)
49. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Quantum ecosophy
50. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Project Monarch
51. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Progressive Notation Method (Same reasoning - attacks on creator)
52. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Professions (World of Warcraft) (with Guy)
53. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Political timeline of the British Isles (Moreschi nomination)
54. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Philosophy & logic (Folantin nomination)
55. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Patrick Altaie
56. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Patricia L. Michelle
57. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Paranormal vanishing
58. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/PMX-000 Messala (Moreschi nomination)
59. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Organizational Climate
60. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Omniphile
61. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Offensive comments by famous people (Same reasoning - indiscriminate)
62. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Numa (opera) (Moreschi nomination)
63. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Noah the Rover
64. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nihilist anarchism (Same reasoning - original research)
65. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nicholas Cretan
66. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ngangangese
67. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Neo-fascism and religion
68. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Need for Madness
69. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nautilist
70. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Myspacephobia
71. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Montreal West Operatic Society (Moreschi nomination)
72. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mitth'ure'nourodo
73. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ming Wai Chan
74. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mermaid art (Same reasoning - Both say nothing worth saving but result was merging)
75. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Martin Perreault (with Guy)
76. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mars Holiday
77. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MSM-07 Z'Gok (Moreschi nomination)
78. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MS-10 Pezun Dowadge (Moreschi nomination)
79. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MP-02A Orgg (Moreschi nomination)
80. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MAN-05 Gromlin
81. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MAN-03 Braw Bro (Moreschi nomination)
82. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MAM-07 Grabro
83. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MA-05 Bigro (Moreschi nomination)
84. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/MA-04X Zakrello (Moreschi nomination)
85. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Luchesi authorship controversy (Same reasoning - attack on creator, with Antandrus)
86. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lord of the Goblinstone (Moreschi nomination)
87. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of wannabe-goth bands
88. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of unrecorded operas (Same reasoning - unattainable)
89. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of things named after rivers
90. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of sports team names and mascots of European origin
91. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of proven conspiracies (2nd nomination)
92. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of political revolutionaries
93. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of places named after people
94. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of people who have died of Lyme disease
95. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of nationalistic pieces
96. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of musical works in time signatures other than 4/4
97. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of massacres commited by Israeli forces
98. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of jokes considered clichés (second nomination)
99. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of impressionistic pieces
100. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of important dates in fiction
101. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of graffiti artists (2nd nomination)
102. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of films with single syllable titles
103. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of dadaistic pieces
104. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of clichéd classical pieces (Folantin nomination)
105. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of chemical compounds with unusual names (Same reasoning - strong delete, article was kept)
106. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of boots in media and popular culture
107. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of band names containing a repeated word or phrase (Guy's nomination)
108. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of alliterative phrases in Harry Potter (Same reasoning - cruft)
109. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Roman Emperors from modern Serbia (Moreschi and Dougweller delete per Folantin)
110. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine presidential trivia
111. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine Presidents who served one term or less
112. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine Presidents who served more than one term
113. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine Presidents by previous occupation
114. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine Presidents by parentage
115. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Philippine Presidents by children (Each of the Philippine lists have Moreschi and Folantin responding closely
116. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Half-Life mods
117. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Children of the Presidents of the United States
118. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Life art but bread and butter (Moreschi closes as speedy delete)
119. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Libricide (Same reasoning - POV)
120. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lenin's Tomb (blog)
121. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Leadership Intelligence
122. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Late 1900s
123. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kris Mansour
124. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Katsap (Folantin doesn't make a delete clear but states that the article if kept needs to be rewritten)
125. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kallarakal
126. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph Gamble
127. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/John C. Friend-Pereira
128. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joel Manning
129. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joe's Shanghai
130. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jean-Thierry Boisseau (both say Keep Wehage: delete Boisseau.)
131. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jargonym
132. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islamic view of the Bible (Delete but result was no-consensus)
133. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islamic Inquisition
134. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islam inside Hungarians
135. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islam and pork (Delete but result was to merge)
136. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Infamous cases of child murder after 1900
137. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Homeless in hawaii
138. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Historically-defined racial groups in India
139. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Historical persecution by Jews (2nd nomination) (Moreschi nomination)
140. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hallo Berlin
141. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gigposters.com (second nomination)
142. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ghionis & McKee (Moreschi nomination)
143. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Georgian Chauvinism
144. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/GM camouf
145. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Friendly dictator (Same reasoning - POV)
146. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Frequency of autism
147. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Foreign interference with elections in democratic countries
148. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/First World Problems
149. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fight on, Loyola
150. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Everlasting wind
151. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Eurolinguistics (Result was no consensus)
152. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Environmental fundamentalism
153. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Enemy of Islam
154. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Empire Lyric Players (Moreschi nomination, with Guy)
155. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/EMS-10 Zudah (Moreschi nomination)
156. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/EMS-05 Agg (Moreschi nomination)
157. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dylan Reese
158. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Double-Standards and Human Rights Protection
159. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Doctor Who clichés
160. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Discord of perception
161. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Digital marxism (Speedy deleted by Moreschi with only 2 people responding)
162. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Destruction of Idol Temples
163. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Destruction
164. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denial of Soviet occupation
165. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/David Britton (Result was no consensus)
166. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Daniel Hambly
167. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Currency debasement
168. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Controversial literature
169. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Chubaluba
170. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Christos Papachristopoulos (Closed by Moreschi)
171. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Children of the Prime Ministers of Canada (Moreschi nomination, result was no consensus)
172. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Chicken and Rice
173. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Challenge of Qur'an
174. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Centaur art
175. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Carson Cooman (After Moreschi changes to delete, Folantin votes delete)
176. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Capitalist slavery
177. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/CIA sponsored regime change (Result was no consensus)
178. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Buddha and the Seven Ascended Masters vs. Godzilla
179. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Brodcore (Sppedied deleted with only Moreschi and Folantin voting)
180. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Brahmin Contributions to Other Religions
181. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Beer-In-Hand (2nd nomination)
182. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barking drunk
183. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Background history of the September 11, 2001 attacks
184. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Australian anti communist organization
185. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Arsalan Ali
186. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Arguments/Evidence for a "Black Ancient Egypt"? (Moreschi nomination, with Dbachmann - 2009)
187. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anti North Korean Sentiment
188. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anti-parent crush
189. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amir Massoud Tofangsazan (second nomination)
190. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amir Massoud Tofangsazan (2nd nomination)
191. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/A Series of Unfortunate Events 2: In The Clutches of Count Olaf
192. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/AMX-104 R-Jarja
193. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/AMX-003 Gaza-C
194. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/AMA-002 Neue Ziel (Moreschi nomination, result was keep)

Keep:

1. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/War of the Oaken Bucket (Moreschi closes after Folantin makes a suggestion)
2. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Platonic Lovers
3. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islam and alcohol (both said merge)
4. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Il dolce suono... Ardon gl'incensi... Spargi d'amaro pianto (both said merge)
5. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Human rights in pre-Saddam Iraq (both changed from delete to keep)
6. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War
7. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amy (demon) (Folantin changes to merge, both vote merge)

DRV statements:

1. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 March 25 Brian Peppers in popular culture - both endorse
2. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 January 12 Template:Catholic-link - both delete
3. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 January 1 Category:Wikipedians born in the 1990s - endorse delete
4. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 February 8 Template:HistSource - endorse delete
5. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 February 7 MSK-008_Dijeh - endorse delete
6. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 February 23 Talk:Brian Peppers - endorse delete
7. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 30 Libricide - endorse delete
8. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 30 Category:Child Wikipedians - delete

Commenting only but in agreement with each other:

1. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard (with Dbachmann and Antandrus)
2. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rimsky-Korsakov and Shostakovich versions of Boris Godunov

Disagreement:

1. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Transformations imposed by the Soviet Union in Romanian Education after the WW II (November 2006)
2. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of compositions for harp (Folantin switches to keep, September 2006)

- List is now completed. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:17, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Page edits

Folantin:

1. 311 - Folantin
2. 289 - Moreschi
3. 139 - Dbachmann
4. 93 - Antandrus
5. 56 - Geogre
6. 48 - Dougweller

Moreschi:

1. 745 - Moreschi
2. 112 - Folantin
3. 46 - Makemi/Archive6
4. 42 - Antandrus

Fringe noticeboard:

1. 1101 (1032/69) Dbachmann 2007-07-13 09:23 2009-11-13 16:43
2. 369 (0/369) MiszaBot II (bot) 2007-08-13 06:36 2009-11-07 06:40
3. 354 (343/11) Dougweller 2008-02-11 15:34 2009-11-05 22:05
4. 305 (293/12) Moreschi 2007-07-05 21:49 2009-11-13 08:27
5. 304 (302/2) ScienceApologist 2007-10-04 20:46 2009-11-10 23:45
6. 263 (258/5) Looie496 2008-07-03 20:41 2009-11-12 22:53
7. 240 (236/4) Itsmejudith 2007-12-06 11:43 2009-11-11 10:14
8. 235 (235/0) Blueboar 2007-08-01 02:05 2009-11-13 15:04
9. 217 (203/14) Folantin 2007-07-17 12:06 2009-09-15 19:08
10. 206 (201/5) Verbal 2008-06-20 18:07 2009-11-01 18:23
11. 163 (163/0) Malcolm Schosha 2008-05-07 21:40 2009-04-25 18:53
12. 157 (156/1) Simonm223 2009-06-24 15:09 2009-11-12 22:05
13. 135 (135/0) Shoemaker's Holiday 2008-04-07 19:04 2009-10-30 17:04
14. 124 (110/14) Mangoe 2008-03-27 17:20 2009-11-12 18:16
15. 123 (107/16) Paul Barlow 2007-11-19 15:39 2009-11-13 12:28
16. 113 (111/2) Relata refero 2007-11-14 19:24 2008-09-14 19:23
17. 110 (109/1) Rocksanddirt 2007-07-13 15:49 2009-04-28 19:09
18. 102 (90/12) MastCell 2007-08-05 00:27 2009-09-02 16:45
19. 98 (98/0) Vanished user 2007-09-22 09:16 2008-01-28 02:10
20. 93 (88/5) Akhilleus

Other pages:

• Essays against nationalism: Moreschi's essay, Dbachmann's essay, Antandrus's essay
• Dbachmann found by ArbCom to be problematicly editing to combat nationalism.
• Organizing to combat nationalism.

More stuff towards the above. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Bronwyn Bancroft 2nd review

First of all, thank you for being polite. In response to the last comment you left, I understand that reviewers can make changes to an article but the amount of changes I suggested for the Bancroft article were too many for me to feel comfortable. If there were five errors (four spelling mistakes and a missing {{persondata}} tag for example), I would be fine with correcting those on my own. Since there were well over five, I was not comfortable editing the article to make all the changes. I feel with the amount of changes necessary, I wouldn't have been able to give a honest review w/o being invested in the article myself. Does this make sense?

Even though I still feel that not making the changes myself was the right thing, your comment about "a relationship between nominator and reviewer" made me change my mind about something else. I wish I would have checked Hamiltonstone's contribution history prior to failing the article. Hamilton frequently edits Misplaced Pages and he/she responded to my first GA review comments very promptly. If I would have known this, I would have placed the article "on hold" instead of failing it. I could tell by Hamilton's quick response (and quick relisting at GAN) that he/she really wants to improve the article and get GA status. So thanks for the insight. // Gbern3 (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

GA reviewing is a difficult thing to get into. Just be open, willing to discuss things, and remember that it is very intimate at GAN. FAC reviews, because so many people contribute to each review, tend to be less personal. However, GAN are definitely two people trying to come to a common ground. People tend to react poorly if it seems like there is no ability to work towards getting an article to GA, which a quick fail tends to do. I would reserve the quick fails to people that seem to be vandalising, put up gibberish, or are not that active. I don't believe I have personally quick failed anyone, but I came close. One individual I gave about a month and some to fix the page because they were busy irl. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)