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Maintenance template removal by User:InkHeart (formerly User:Colleen16)

User:Colleen16 has repeatedly removed maintenance tags from the article Lee Jun Ki, despite revisions by me and another editor. We both also explained the need for sources in the page's discussion page and her own page, and pointed her to the policy page on the subject. After she was explained to several times and continued to remove them, I gave her warnings, and she responded by removing them and pasting them onto my page. I continued to try to talk to her about it, and she feigned understanding, later removing the tags again. I just realized that maintenance templates are not protected by 3RR as I had thought, so I have stopped my revisions. I'm not suggesting that she be blocked, but maybe an admin can talk to her about it. Ωphois 15:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: User:Colleen16 User:InkHeart has been notified of this discussion here. Singularity42 (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little confused by the redirection of Colleen16's talk page to Inkheart's talk page here. Are they the same user?— Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talk • contribs) Sorry about that...

Yes. A rename was approved. See this edit summary. Singularity42 (talk) 16:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I have updated the section heading to reflect the change. Singularity42 (talk) 16:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, unrelated to the original complaint, but it looks like the user is now editing under both usernames. I can address it on their talk page, but perhaps it might better coming from an admin? Singularity42 (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd kind of like to know how a renamed user is editing under two names at once before I try giving advice.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, if they're using both accounts, and it's clearly the same person, that's a sock. They'd better have a good reason for using both accounts...--Unionhawk 16:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC) Oh, they renamed and they're using both accounts?? How is that technically possible?--Unionhawk 16:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Just figured it out -- Colleen16 was recreated after the rename. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) I think they recreated the old account on the 14th, based on the history of the account. --Bfigura 16:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The user seems to have some serious WP:OWN issues over the above article and others, and has a habit of labeling any edit that tries to fix non-free content or sourcing issues as "vandalism". The user was blocked twice over the weekend for 3RR violations, abuses Twinkle, and could use a refresher on WP:AGF, among other Misplaced Pages policies. Mosmof (talk) 17:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I was involved with both editors last week, having blocked Colleen16 (pre-Inkheart) and Ophois for edit-warring. First, kudos to Ophois for opening this discussion and realising you were in danger of getting into a revert battle again - your mature, thoughtful response to the situation does you credit. Second, I'm confused too as to how Colleen16/Inkheart can be editing from two accounts simultaneously; if she recreated the Colleen16 account after the rename, why would it still show her earlier contribs and block? Surely these wouldn't show up for a brand new account under the same name? However, I agree with Mosmof's and others' assessments of her editing. Maybe mentoring might be worth suggesting before she ends up with increasingly long/indef blocks? Although she's been here a while, she really doesn't seem to have much of a handle on WP editing or conduct policies. EyeSerene 14:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

EyeSerene is right. I don't fully understand the Misplaced Pages ruling if anyone is will to explain to me the mistakes I've made (in simpler terms, I am slow) I would be greatly appreciated. Colleen16 (talk) 17:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It looks like she now uses discussion, so that is good. However, she is still using both accounts simultaneously. Ωphois 10:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not right now. InkHeart♥ 11:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Both accounts have been used during the last 24 hours:

1. InkHeart: 11:03, 18 November 2009
2. InkHeart: 10:57, 18 November 2009
3. InkHeart: 10:56, 18 November 2009
4. InkHeart: 10:55, 18 November 2009
5. InkHeart: 21:12, 17 November 2009
6. InkHeart: 21:10, 17 November 2009
7. Colleen16: 21:07, 17 November 2009
8. Colleen16: 21:04, 17 November 2009
9. Colleen16: 20:50, 17 November 2009
10. Colleen16: 20:46, 17 November 2009
11. Colleen16: 20:45, 17 November 2009
12. Colleen16: 20:27, 17 November 2009
13. Colleen16: 20:24, 17 November 2009
14. Colleen16: 20:05, 17 November 2009
15. Colleen16: 19:33, 17 November 2009
16. Colleen16: 19:25, 17 November 2009
17. InkHeart: 18:03, 17 November 2009
18. InkHeart: 17:58, 17 November 2009
19. InkHeart: 17:58, 17 November 2009
20. InkHeart: 17:56, 17 November 2009
21. Colleen16: 17:54, 17 November 2009
22. Colleen16: 17:33, 17 November 2009

I would suggest that the account User:Colleen16 be indefintely blocked (as per User:EyeSerene's suggestion at 18:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC) on InkHeart's page), as the user obviously is not prepared to stop using both accounts. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 11:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Concur with the indef of User:Colleen16. The editor has already created the redirects to the new account, I will WP:AGF that the recreation of the account after the name change was to prevent someone from mimicking them. However, the doppleganger label should/could have been attached, and the account never ever used - and if we are AGFing, then whoever blocks is quite okay to put that tag on the Colleen16 account. I was going to AGF and suggest that we did not need to actually put an indef tage on the user/usertalk pages, but seeing as they had the nerve to state above that they were "not using them both now" when they obviously were, go ahead. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I take that back. She is still removing some templates. I tried to explain to her that she can't just give a link to a foreign website's homepage as a source, without giving instructions on how to find info (like in My Girl (2005 TV series), giving the excuse that it's too hard to look for. And when I removed an uncited trivia section with info already in the article, she just reverted and told me to find sources for it. Ωphois 12:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I see Ophois mentioned my part but didn't mention her part, about deleting information because it doesn't have a reference/uncited tag. I see no need to remove info due no uncited tags. All you need to do is go out and research uncited tags. Deleting important info seems like disruptive edit to me. giving the excuse that it's too hard to look for. It is difficult to find but it still came from TNS Media Ratings. there used to be a direct link but those links a temporary meaning they are deleted after a while. so the homepage link is the closest. While I was talking to Ophois I was even searching for a direct link and couldn't find anything. So it isn't an excuse it is a fact. InkHeart♥ 13:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above; I think the Colleen16 account was being used in a way that comes outside WP:SOCK#LEGIT. I suspect this was down to inexperience rather than anything else, but to help InkHeart stay on the right side of our WP:SOCKing policies I've indeffed the Colleen16 account, left the talk-page redirect in place, and posted a {{doppleganger}} on the user page. If she wishes, InkHeart can of course request an unblock review at any time. EyeSerene 13:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Good. However, that was really a side issue, the main point being her editing practices, including removal of maintenance tags, and this still remains to be dealt with. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Like your doctor always suggests: one symptom at a time. The socking (whether intentional or not) has been dealt with, now let's focus on other issues ... although hopefully it's education needed, and not administrative action.(talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That's my hope too. I've pointed her towards WP:ADOPT, which she seemed to be receptive to. InkHeart's clearly very keen contribute, so it'd be great if with the help (and patience!) of other editors we can reinforce her good editing and steer her away from getting into difficulties, in the same way that we all had to learn when we were new. EyeSerene 15:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Incidently, there is an RfC about the article causing the contention on its talk page: "RfC: Current version or former version". -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 21:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add with the RfC, it seems to be an issue of ownership... oncamera 02:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

She continues to do it here. There need to be inline citations (as has been explained to her multiple times by multiple editors), and she continues to remove refsection improve tags. Ωphois 19:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Did you also mention you are stalking my edits i had asked you stop. You are no authority to be watching edits and I have been in trouble because of you, so stop harassing me Ophois. As for the that there is already an a reference I have explained this to you on the talk page. InkHeart♥ 19:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Changing edits on two pages that violate policy is not stalking. You have shown to continuously disregard policy, and claimed it was because you didn't know any better. However, after all of this, you continue to do so, showing that is not the case. Similar edits by other users have prompted me to include the page on my watchlist, and I will fix any policy violations that I see by any user. Ωphois 20:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I am going through your history right now. And every single thing I edit you have undone. I edited something else of the My girl article and you went back in and added the tag when I explained it to you already. You keep editing same articles I am editing and according to your history you don't edit Korean articles. you are obviously stalking my edits. And I've asked you stop but you aren't listening to me. You have gotten me into trouble, you aren't helping me to improve on Wiki in any way by undoing everything I have submitted. Look at what you are doing right now submitting me to incidents board you are making things worse for me. So just stop and move onto something or someone else. InkHeart♥ 20:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

By "everything I have submitted", you mean the removal of maintenance tags. Ωphois

I mean everything good or bad. Why is it that you re always showing up. You are stalking me Ophois don't you see that? Even if you are doing it for good. So you've corrected a mistake on an article fine. But you continue to watch my edits. In your history whatever article I edit you edit as well. That is strange, especially considering you don't edit Korean articles. The article you edit are Supernatural and Smallville - American articles. I don't want your influence around, because every time you edit after me i get into trouble. I used to have a clean record. Now it's tarnished because of you. InkHeart♥ 20:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

And can you provide examples of me removing good edits? Ωphois 20:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not the point you aren't perfect yourself look at your block history. I am going to get a mentor o help me, so why do you keep stalking my edits Ophois? You still haven't answered my question. Who are you to do such a job? If you weren't the cause of my bad record it would be fine but I don't want you specifically watching me. So stop. I won't repeat myself. InkHeart♥ 20:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

My recent block is hardly related to you. I have looked through my edits to check, and found nothing. So I request that you give proof to back up your claims. Ωphois 20:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, unless you can back up your claims, I am not continuing this discussion, and will leave it to the admins. Ωphois 20:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Go through both of our history the articles I have edited you happen to pop up and add tags. U and I. I edited the Lee Da Hae article you edit it, I edited the Hero series article you edit, I edited My Girl article you edit it, I edited the Lee Jun Ki article you edited it as well. And these are all my recent article edits. And your past history show's that you don't edit K-articles so why are you suddenly and continuously editing in the exact articles I am editing. You've posted your tags fine, but now you should move on to other things. You are also apparently doing the same thing to another editor 1.InkHeart♥ 20:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Looking at your edit history, you edit many other Korean articles. Looking at my history, it will show that I add ref tags to any article I come across that needs them. I came across Hero due to JKsarang's image-changing spree (who continued to blatantly violate policy despite many editors' attempts to stop him until he was blocked). After the edit war on that page, I checked your recent edits to make sure you weren't violating policy like that elsewhere. When I saw that those pages needed improving, I added maintenance tags, which I do for any page I see like that. You have yet to give any proof to your claims of me undoing good edits by you, so I will let admins do what they feel is best. And by the way, you can't tell someone that they've posted their tags and should leave, when you then remove the tags after they do. Ωphois 20:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You both need to stop arguing :) InkHeart, it's often the case that when an editor notices some edits that might not comply with Misplaced Pages policy, they'll check other edits from the same editor to see if the pattern repeats. This isn't stalking, even though I sympathise with you that it might feel like it. Ophois was perfectly right to tag those articles (especially where there were copyright concerns, which we take very seriously), and as you know the correct way to go about removing the tags is to address the issues that they raise. Where both of you tripped up before was in edit-warring over them, but that's behind us now. Having a block in your log isn't the end of the world, especially when you're a new editor (I've got one too, thanks to another admin who clicked the wrong button!) Learning from them is all we ask.

Ophois, even though I agree you aren't stalking, it might be helpful if you could deliberately step away from InkHeart's edits to give her some space while she learns more about our editing policies. Your concerns have been brought to the attention of a number of editors and admins, and of course the RfC seems to be generating some useful discussion.

I don't think we're going to achieve much more here, so unless anyone has anything more to add it might be worthwhile closing this thread now? EyeSerene 21:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

That's fine. Although, can you please explain to her how citations work? I have tried multiple times to explain that she needs citations for episode ratings (such as for My Girl (2005 TV series)) rather than a general site homepage ref. Maybe it coming from an admin will help. Thanks. Ωphois 21:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Suicide threat or vandalism?

I reverted what I thought was vandalism but then thought, maybe it is not vandalism and person is serious? See this diff. What are admins thoughts? Should a check user be made?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Considering the fact that it was at Talk:Suicide, I think vandalism is a safe assumption.--Unionhawk 16:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) Very borderline WP:SUICIDE. However, I generally advocate "better safe than sorry" in these situations. Singularity42 (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

They never actually said that they were going to commit suicide, but, if this is real, then they're definitely depressed and/or suicidal. However, it's certainly possible that this is just a troll. (On a different note, I was not aware of Misplaced Pages's policy about suicide threats. I was wondering about it just a few minutes ago. I've threatened to kill myself on other websites before, but never on Misplaced Pages.)--66.177.73.86 (talk) 00:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, technically, it's an essay (and, from what I've heard, a rejected proposal)--Unionhawk 00:36, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It's an essay that is generally followed, but was decided shouldn't specifically be made policy. Singularity42 (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

CU doesn't accomplish anything for IP editors. This IP address geolocates to Thailand, and I for one would not be eager to try to contact Thai cops and explain the situation to them. Looie496 (talk) 01:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I really don't see there is anything we can do. It is the only edit by an anon IP address, and we have no way of contacting them. It would be possible, I suppose, to post a user-page message, but I'm not sure it would do any good. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Everything that can reasonably be done has been. -- llywrch (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"I've threatened to kill myself on other websites before, but never on Misplaced Pages." I haven;t stopped laughing yet. Great bunch of people you got here, reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.81.177.148 (talk) 10:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

A stitch in time saves nine....

Could some admin kindly blank this discussion from the talk page, as now 4 editors find it disparages the topic of the person. Nine days ago admin James086 stated he would blank the section if no further comment is made , and nothing more has been added since. I asked James086 a week ago to follow through, but it seems he has intermittent bouts of activity, so I request if some other admin could nip any potential escalation in the bud and blank the section. Thanks. --Martintg (talk) 00:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Noting that the individual referred to has died, what is so pressing about this discussion that it requires blanking? It seems to me like a legitimate discussion on an article talkpage. Crafty (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

So... because they're dead, we're free to spread vile slander and libel about them? Interesting logic you got there...--66.177.73.86 (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

@Craftyminion, she only recently died, any living relatives, friends and associates of this person reading Misplaced Pages may find the discussion disturbing. Common decency and respect I guess. --Martintg (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Which four editors, Martintg? Aren't they the participants of the WP:EEML mailing list?--Dojarca (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Termer's already asked an administrator about this in an attempt to censor a valid, content-related question. This is the reply he got: . This case strangely looks like a bloc action from EEML + Termer (often discussed as an ally of this aforementioned mailing list). For context, a petty useful diff to take a look at. So much for asking a legitimate and earnest talk page question–one that I would still like an answer to. Best regards, Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Just to note that in the Australian context, due to the structure of libel law, people have a tendency to wait until a person has died to speak about them frankly. Additionally, wikipedia is not censored, and the BLP reasons for caution elapse with death. Of course, any added content should be RSed. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Many US states have libel laws against statements that “blacken the memory of one who is dead", but this is not some legalistic or abstract discussion on the appropriateness of libeling the dead and I am not requesting blanking of the section on that basis. But I am requesting that this be blanked on the following reasons:

1. The article talk page is not a forum
2. The question was asked and answered
3. No further discussion has taken place in the last 7 days
4. A number of editors finds the way the question was framed unnecessarily denigrates the subject and should be removed out of respect and common decency.
5. This part of the question "I wonder why her son had no need to hide this sort of thing" could be construed as a BLP violation.
6. Anti-Nationalist by uncivilly opposing a reasonable request demonstrates he appears not interested in building a colliegiate editing environment
7. Anti-Nationalist has a long history of inserting tendentious BLP claims of Nazi sympathies into a number of articles contrary to what sources actually state, for example, this case being the latest in a long line.
8. The fact that I made a reasonable and civil request here on ANI and Dojarca and Anti-Nationalist chime in with ad hominem arguments against myself and others indicates they have taken a bad faithed approach to this.
9. In the interests of de-escalating this from developing into yet another pointless battleground.

--Martintg (talk) 03:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

1. 1. "The article talk page is not a forum" —The question asked at the talk page was relevant to the article and directly connected to the editor's task of editing it.
   2. "The question was asked and answered" —The question was never answered.
   3. "No further discussion has taken place in the last 7 days" —There was a comment just yesterday, but more importantly, the talk page question posed remains unresolved.
   4. "A number of editors finds the way the question was framed unnecessarily denigrates the subject and should be removed out of respect and common decency." —That number of editors was made up of EEML editors plus Termer, who was discussed by your friends as an ally of the abusive mailing list in the archives. The feedback consensus at pages such as this one appears to have taken a different view, as did administrator James086.
   5. "This part of the question "I wonder why her son had no need to hide this sort of thing" could be construed as a BLP violation." —I highly suspect, however, that that isn't the case, Martintg: the least you could have done, had that been the concern, was take it to the BLP board at some time in these intervening weeks, which you made no effort to do. Nor did you ever even ask me to remove the material about her son making this information public (which he did) specifically.
   6. "Anti-Nationalist by uncivilly opposing a reasonable request demonstrates he appears not interested in building a colliegiate editing environment" —I am very much interested in building a collegiate editing environment, but I am against being repeatedly attacked, directly or obliquely, and reverted by the same set of folks with such exacting consistency. "Nationalist" is a political stance and not a derogatory term (see your buddy Vecrumba's user page)–incidentally, you've referred to editors as nationalists, including myself, Martintg–such as in your attempt to remove information about antisemitism with your buddy Digwuren here (although perhaps you did it with the intent of smearing opposing editors), so I don't see what issue of incivility there is by your standards. Can't I not act hypocritically and agree with your old opinion that pointing matters out plainly is alright, even if you disagree when that pattern of reasoning is applied to your editing? Calling WP:DUCK on tendentious editing is not proscribed; nor was it done as anything but the ultimate resort, as amply testified by the well-documented evidence of months of your harrassment and the proposed ArbCom sanctions against you.
   7. "Anti-Nationalist has a long history of inserting tendentious BLP claims of Nazi sympathies into a number of articles contrary to what sources actually state, for example, this case being the latest in a long line." —The edit has a very good reference–by all means compare with cited source. You well know that I adjusted the wording right after some disagreement about interpreting the relevant line from that JTA article.
   8. "The fact that I made a reasonable and civil request here on ANI and Dojarca and Anti-Nationalist chime in with ad hominem arguments against myself and others indicates they have taken a bad faithed approach to this." —The fact that you came here for this request after already badgering me and an admin and having it denied by both attests to your WP:FORUMSHOPPING, if seen from where I'm standing.
   9. "In the interests of de-escalating this from developing into yet another pointless battleground." —Then why the deliberate spillover of the battleground, and why the continuing circus of the WP:FORUMSHOPPING, and why the mischaracterization of problems and all just mentioned above? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:02, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Lets keep it simple, editing wikipedia is suppose to be based on WP:RS, not on questions asked at talk pages. In case there would be any reasons to believe that the subject may have been a nazi-collaborator, there surely should be sources out there that look into it. Hunting down possible nazi-collaborators on wikipedia talk pages however remains to be out of the scope of wikipedia. And there is nothing more to it.--Termer (talk) 02:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Nobody is "hunting down possible nazi-collaborators on wikipedia talk pages" for the sheer exercise, actually. There is a source for her apparent work for Nazi German radio–and it's material from her son Juho Looveer, as was pointed out by me from the get-go. Surely you have now noticed, Termer, that Pantherskin has just joined the discussion with relevant information on Baltic broadcasting from Germany and that we are making nice progress with the discussion there? That's what our talk pages are for. And it's why we don't just blank them when we don't like a discussion or where it's going, if the concerns presented are relevant to the subject of said article. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The source isn't even considered reliable, that was pretty obvious from the get go and speculating in circles on the talk on her alleged collaboration in the absence of any other source, simply violates WP:NOTFORUM. Pantherskin's source on German radio makes no mention of Looveer, and his claim that Looveer's daughter being born in the same town as Hilter is simply irrelevant. --Martin (talk) 00:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see any sources saying someone called Looveer was a nazi-collaborator, that by itself would be quite a serious accusation I think. Therefore I'm not getting it how a discussion implying a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources under the discussion would help to improve the article and wikipedia in general. And I'd be all for catching nazi collaborators, just that not on wikipedia.--Termer (talk) 04:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Seems to be a content dispute, and other than stirring up more drama and/or harassing Anti-Nationalist I do not see that this thread has a purpose. Posting it here, at one of the most watchted pages on Misplaced Pages, demonstrates that concern about the reputation of Lia Looveer are not the primary interest. Pantherskin (talk) 06:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Nationlist

Someone who has chosen a username "Anti-Nationalist" seems to think it's OK to label other editors with "nationalist" tag., My suggestion to rephrase such insults were met with accusations of harassment, POV editing, censoring etc. .
I came across Anti-Nationalist first at Talk:Lia Looveer where User:Anti-Nationalist suggested the subject (who has been honored with the British Empire Medal) may have been a "Nazi collaborator" . Such assumptions were made based on her publicly available resume . Since there has been no sources whatsoever verifying or even suggesting any possible "nazi-collaboration" by this public figure, I have tried to remove such possibly defaming remarks from this talk page pr. WP:TALK but without much luck thus far. And since the situation it seems has not been resolved, please advice! Thanks!--Termer (talk) 03:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Honey, there's already a thread about this. Check out "A stitch in nine" just above. Crafty (talk) 04:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Note, the thread "A stitch in nine" is a request about the article, not the person. --Martin (talk) 16:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

That's a pretty condescending posting, Crafty. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out. And as I can see user termer has also been under discussion. Just that why exactly such suggestions like this that I cans see again above Termer (often discussed as an ally of this aforementioned mailing list) ] get tolerated right on this notice board? Who exactly and where anybody other than Anti-Nationalist has discussed that "Termer is an allay of some kind of mailing list"? And this is because? And it's OK to go around Misplaced Pages and label anybody you have a disagreement with the "nationalist" tag? As long as your username is Anti-Nationalist, it's OK? Perhaps its me who is missing something here.--Termer (talk) 04:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Err, WP:TEA perhaps? Crafty (talk) 05:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! That was also an answer to my questions after all.--Termer (talk) 05:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I figured it might be. ;) Crafty (talk) 05:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The mailing list discussed you as an ally of theirs during their antics on Misplaced Pages, Termer, as confirmed by the archive that has been uploaded to a public forum, so there's that. What you're complaining about is me pointing out the POV of the mailing list for an admin who'd had a hard time understanding the matter of your spellbinding enthusiasm for and concern with deleting a question legitimately asked in a talk page comment. And nobody even called you a nationalist–I merely pointed out that as a contributor to the project, you've been–de facto, Termer–an ally of the mailing list, and it was the mailing list's political issue that I was pointing out. That the mailing list pursued a nationalist POV is evident from the leaked archives of the list, and from list host Digwuren's comments there (by now, the viewpoint and the activity of the mailing list is public knowledge). Evidently, James086 found my response on his talk page about the talk comments being reverted and reverted continuously helpful as an illustration, for he agreed with me that the legitimate comments there should not be removed pending consensus, as you and the members of the secret leaked mailing list have continued to do. Now, please take a sip of a bit of some refreshing WP:COKE or some WP:TEA, and proceed with this discussion at the appropriate place indicated by Crafty, where we can discuss Lia Looveer or whatever issue du jour you'd like to focus on, since popping up here and there, or jumping all over WP:ANI is a tad too boisterous, m'dear fellow. Please also get a hang on WP:PARENT.

Anti-Nationalist (talk) 15:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually you implied Termer was a nationalist in this comment. Attempting to tar Termer with the EEML brush violates WP:NPA in my view. Note that James086 also stated he would blank the section if no further comment is made . Article talk pages are WP:NOTFORUM where you can discuss "whatever issue du jour you'd like to focus on"". --Martintg (talk)

This is such a misrendering of what I actually posted and what James asked me to do (comment on the issue) that I'm not even going to bother to reply. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I read this thread and thought we were told to post on section "A stitch in time" above but apparently I should have posted here so I am just going to paste the post I made there...

Hello, I have been following the discussions on this editors username (see refs) and complaining that it contravenes the WP:SOAPBOX "no advocacy in the content of wiki" guideline which I think is one of the most heavily relied on guidelines for various (and good) reasons. This has only led to debate and comment about who Anti-Nationalist "targets" and wether all nationalists as bad anyway. Maybe they are but we do not want to encourage them or their counterparts. As though to support the idea, Anti-Nationalist recently changed from an extremely neutral username (PasswordUsername, no less) to show that he/she is advocating a political struggle on Misplaced Pages. We advocate some things like Wikimedia ideas and DaVinci, Einstein, cars we like... but when it comes down to inviting Nazis on for a fight using the word "nationalist" of which some nationalists are the opposite of Nazis in their countries giving an ironic edge to the blade, User:Anti-Nationalist has admitted the username is a representation not only of political views but of contribution style for Misplaced Pages (which others have been encouraging, others going several extra miles beyond User:Anti-Nationalist) These refs are the three sections the username has been discussed, Anti-Nation talk, Username Talk, and RFC/Username. Good luck with that. I am of the opinion that Anti-Nationalist had no trouble to change the username to something neutral but received various encouragement, including informing the user that certain actions were acceptable through debate, such as quips "all nationalists are bad for Wikipedias anyway" (not direct quote but check it) and so on. Please convince this young person or young mind that some places are non-confrontational regardless of how many confrontations go on there. (and make them change the username!)! 10:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RTG (talk • contribs)

One problem is that Anti-Nationalist is framing his content opponents as "nationalist" regardless of whether or not they actually are. Termer's heros are hardly nationalist figures. --Martin (talk) 16:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Calling other editor's "nationalists" is inappropriate personal attack even in normal circumstances, but then user making such accusations is named "Anti-Nationalist" it is blatantly confrontational and should be accordingly dealt with.--Staberinde (talk) 17:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The term nationalist is not pejorative. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

No, in certain political contexts, "nationalist" has very negative connotations indeed. GiantSnowman 17:52, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

There does not appear to be an negative connotation here. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, obviously describing disagreeing editors as "bloc of nationalist editors" and "bunch of hardcore Eastern European nationalists" is totally not negative from editor who has chosen to edit under name Anti-Nationalist.--Staberinde (talk) 19:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

"Nationalist" isn't a slur; it's a political label I used in presenting my case to James086, given the existence of the EEML archive. "Bloc" is also an objective reference, as seen in the ArbCom findings of fact to be gleaned from the proposed Arbitrator decision in WP:EEML, and much less offensive than "meatpuppet" (one of the relevant principle highlighted in the proposed decision in this case does, incidentally, concern "Meatpuppetry" from the EEML editors). Incidentally, I adopted the nick "Anti-Nationalist" (not that it's relevant to this case) after Martintg repeatedly accused me of being a "Russian nationalist" . I am, in fact, an internationalist, but I did not choose to be User:Internationalist so as to not fuel any ad hominems that I'm some sort of biased communist, because Martintg's ally and EEML member Radeksz has already accused me of being a "neo-Stalinist" , and some right-wingers have characterized me as "promoting Soviet historiography" or whatever when I do not; whereas I actually do use Soviet-era sources for uncontroversial supplementary details in biographies and such when no alternatives are available, I make no virtue out of necessity. Oh, bloody slander that! How is this looking as something for an AN/I block on our EEML buddies now looking for wikidrama? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to get too involved here but the debate is continuing to gravitate to the idea that one of these political adversities is more acceptable. Almost like "Oh but it was only Jews and gays we were picking on not communists!". Could a person not put themselves above that>? If I wave a flag when our country is playing the cricket I am being nationalist. ~ R.T.G 20:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

"The mailing list discussed you as an ally of theirs during their antics on Misplaced Pages, Termer, as confirmed by the archive that has been uploaded to a public forum". Where is this public forum where have I been under discussion as "an ally of some kind of a mailing list"? I have never been part of any mailing lists and I am an ally of anybody on wikipedia who edits articles according WP:RS and WP:NPOV. In fact I can still take pride in one of my early achievements on Misplaced Pages, stabilizing one of the political battleground articles put on probation by ArbCom Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940. So what exactly gives you the right to go around on Misplaced Pages and call me "nationalist" , imply that I'm an allay of hard core "Eastern European nationalists" , POV pushing etc? And now it seems you attempt to tie me to a mailing list I never had anything to do with.--Termer (talk) 01:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

You are not under review here, Termer, why are you posting information about your contributions here? ~ R.T.G 16:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the only reason that Termer has brought this up is due to his encounters with Anti-Nationalist. They disagree and Anti-Nationalist is blunt and judging in his comments. Understandably Termer has taken offence, but complaining about his username is not the right way to resolve the issue. As for Tia Loveer, there is quite substantial discussion there, if blanking is decided upon a link should remain to the discussion (a revision history link would be fine). I don't really think it should be blanked but as this is a consensus based project, I will not go against consensus. James086 17:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: I think the only reason that Termer has brought this up is due to his encounters with Anti-Nationalist.

Captain obvious, eh ;) I mean that could be probably realized from first comment in this section :P Although I agree that rising issue about Anti-Nationalist's username wasn't correct solution, Termer should have brought it straight to ANI. Problem isn't username, problem are accusations that user behind name makes, name just provides extra demonstration about battleground behavior behind of such accusations.--Staberinde (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's an idea. How about an admin step in, and direct editors to stop with the battleground bullshit and return to editing. Refusal to abide by said directive could be punished by a public tarring and feathering. --Russavia 18:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I mostly agree, this discussion about personal attacks seems pretty exhausted (dunno about Liia Loveer issue, but that belongs to other section). Some uninvolved admin should roll in and conclude this thing.--Staberinde (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The last thing I'd want to see right now would be an ArbCom case against Termer, as he's already been tangentially connected to the EEML via the evidence presented. I seriously urge him to stop claiming that I ever called or labelled him a "nationalist"–the word was only applied to the EEML, who clearly demonstrated their own nationalism rather plainly and discussed him as an ally in the leaked archive themselves. (While I'm not presently in any position to explicitly disclose the contents of the archived mailing list given the special conditions imposed on all ArbCom participants, I trust that most editors here already know where to look to find the clear-as-day evidence for that.) And as he has also been forum-shopping on me for more than a week, I also heartily recommend that he apologize to me (as I've already asked him to). Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

It is a fact that some people have been attempting to tar unrelated editors with the EEML brush, most recently with a SPI case against both User:AmateurEditor and User:Põhja Konn, both who have been found to be unrelated to Digwuren by CU. Making unsubstantiated allegations is a form of personal attack. BTW, I'm Australian with an interest in the Baltic states, to claim I am a "nationalist" is a joke. Seems Anti-Nationalist is claiming anyone who has issue with his tendentious edits must be anti-Anti-Nationalist, therefore they must be nationalist! And we all know nationalist is a derogatory epithet in Misplaced Pages. --Martin (talk) 00:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Anti-Nationalist for bringing this up again:" Termer as he's already been tangentially connected to the EEML via the evidence presented." I would very much like to also see those 'evidence presented' that supposedly connect me to "the EEML"

Also, please explain why do you keep saying the members of the mailing list are nationalists: "nationalist"–the word was only applied to the EEML. I've taken a look into it: Proposed_findings_of_fact of the ArbCom case do not even mention the word nationalist unlike you claim about it.

Therefore please explain again, what gives you the right not only call me an "ally of a bunch of hardcore Eastern European nationalists", me along with other editors nationalist at Looveer TALK but also you call the whole "EELM mailinglist" members nationalists contrary to ArbCom findings, and why again do you try to tie me to this mailing list and ArbCom case I never had anything to do with? Those were the reasons I've posted this thread after it was suggested so by multiple uninvolved editors. PS. In case I have offended you in any way, by all means, I apologize!--Termer (talk) 04:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've already explained why I applied the term "nationalist" to the mailing list, and if you're going to twist my words for your own purposes, I'm afraid I'll have to say that I'm going to participate in the discussion no more. Thank you for your apology. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

admin Future's Perfect and the 1R restriction he put on me

Because of this edit I was put on a 1R/24h restriction, coupled with "you must accompany every edit in content namespaces, no matter if it's a revert or not, with an informative edit summary" and "you may make any revert only after providing an explanation for it on the talk page, and then waiting a minimum of 3 hours between the talk explanation and the actual revert to allow time for discussion." . Since I consider my edit to be 100% valid, (I have removed the German name of Polish city which was added without explanation the day before and which has to reason to be there on English wikipedia) I can only conclude that since I recently had an animated discussion with this admin, because of his block of user:Jacurek which I felt was unjust, he is trying to revenge. I therefore request the restriction is cancelled. Loosmark (talk) 10:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you recognize that, correct or not, your edits have been part of a contentious edit war? The "restrictions" amount to what any considerate person involved in an edit war should do. rspεεr (talk) 11:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit war? There was no edit war going on that article. Somebody added the German name of the city the day before without an explaination and I removed it. I made one single edit. Loosmark (talk) 11:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

There may not have been an edit war on that article, but the admin saw a string of edits that were problematic, across multiple articles, this last one merely being the latest. He explained all of this on your talk page under the "warning" heading. I'm not making any judgment calls as to the restriction, but just wanted to make it clear that this wasn't caused by a single edit, and that this was explained quite clearly. Equazcion (talk) 11:33, 17 Nov 2009 (UTC)

There was no string of problematic edits, yesterday I made a good faith error and I have even self-reverted myself. All other edits he cited were valid, I stand behind them and I have explained them on his talk page to which he didn't seem to object. Loosmark (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Loosmark seems to have come up with a rather innovative new method of avoiding sanctions. Insulting and abuse every single admin who might impose sanctions, accuse them of bias every 5 minutes, and then scream "involved admin!" when patience runs out. Moreschi (talk) 12:06, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Moreschi I request you provide diffs that "I have insulted and abused every single admin who might impose sanctions". I have never done that and I demand you either provide evidence or apology. Loosmark (talk) 12:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by sanctioning admin: Loosmark, not surprisingly, is refusing to take notice of the rationale behind the sanction, which I very clearly explained to him on his talk page: "I'm not talking here about the objective justification of either edit (I have absolutely no opinion about that), but about your communication style". Arguing now that his edits were "valid" and he "stands behind them" is missing the point: they may well have been, but they were unexplained. This is all about Loosmark displaying a pattern of quick, undiscussed, drive-by reverting as a routine editing strategy in contentious articles, and the last straw was another such edit without an edit summary, only hours after I had warned him about just this problem. Given this situation, the restriction I imposed is quite mild -- it leaves him all the freedom to edit, and merely gently forces him to improve his communicative behaviour, hopefully. -- I would be more patient in explaining these things, if I didn't have the impression that there is still a group strategy going on here, with multiple users (all involved with the well-known EEML group) appearing immediately on my talk page to pile on and make a fuss about any and all administrative action affecting one of them, with one of them, User:Radeksz, even accusing me of "hypocrisy" . We know they used to conduct these concerted campaigns in an organised, planned fashion only a few months ago; I wonder how spontaneous and independent they are now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me get if I understand this correctly, my edits might very well be valid but since I have not "explained" them you are putting me on severe restrictions and even call the restrictions "mild". And are you even aware Future Perfect that the last time I have tried to have a dialog with user:Matthead he simply told me to go elsewhere? . As such I don't really feel motivated to explain my edits to him. Matthead made a wrong edit, he added a German name to a Polish city and I have reverted him, that's all that happened. I also don't know what are you talking about the EEML group, I was not a member of the EEML group and I don't care what is user:Radeksz writting to you, reporting him on the EEML ArbCom case or something. Your asumption above that I am part of some sort of group concerted campaigns in an organised, planned fashion borders on paranoia and most certainly is a complete contradiction with asuming good faith policy. Loosmark (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

A lack of edit summaries is always a poor communication style. A number of odd edits (including a self-revert) without edit summaries hits the radar like a bird in a jet engine. We're talking about a simple 24 hrs; a day where someone is being asked to communicate well - hoping, I expect, that the use of edit summaries and discussion would become more commonplace. There's nothing here to do with the validity of the edits overall, just how they've been done. Let me emphasize: it's a day. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

BWilkins please read the sanction he imposed on me again, it is much more severe than that, for example I have to first explain a revert on the talk page and then wait for 3 hours. Since I rarely have the time to sit in the internet caffe for 3 hours I am basicaly prevented to make reverts. (Not to mention that I am very sceptical that the discussion for which I have to wait will happen, the last time I've tried to communicate with Matthead he just told me to "go elsewhere".) Loosmark (talk) 13:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to assume there's a good reason why you didn't read my response to FPAS below before asking this? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course, bellow you are only talking about the timeframe where in fact you have ignored that Future Perfect punishment consists of 3 points. Loosmark (talk) 14:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, wait a sec, not sure if I misunderstand you or perhaps you misunderstood me: I didn't actually impose the restriction just for a single day; it's just a normal "1R per 24hrs" rule. Actually, now that you mention it, it appears I forgot to actually put an expiry date on it, so it's formally indef. If admins here would rather restrict it to a fixed period like most other sanctions of this type, we can of course do that; otherwise I'd propose leaving it in place open-ended for now to see how it works out and lifting it in a few months if he stays out of trouble. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Too early in the morning, I likely misread - but (although not an admin) I recommend some timeframe ... fits with SMART principles... so that it's not punative, it's preventative. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

That revert really should have been discussed on the talk page. The Gdańsk/Danzig naming battle was one of the longest and dumbest edit wars of all time. Tczew/Dirschau is another of those cities in that part of Poland that was once German-speaking and this sounds like a smaller version of the same battle. Google Books shows a number of English-language mentions of Dirschau. The German name might be somewhat obscure today, so mentioning it only in the article Tczew could be good enough, but mentioning it in parentheses in an article about a German-speaking football player from that town is at least slightly defensible, so there should have been discussion or it comes across as battleground editing. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 13:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Seeing as Loosmark seems to be missing the point (all those edits today without Edit Summaries of any type), I'll clarify/correct my point: although I have no input into the article - it is obviously a content dispute - based on the slow edit warring, and poor communication altogether, I support restrictions 1 and 2 wholeheartedly. I might be personally willing to reverse point 3 slightly allowing them to do their 1 revert per 24 hrs, THEN explain it on the talkpage as a means of gathering consensus. They must then stick to whatever consensus is - no exceptions, even after their 24hrs is up. Loosmark ... how long do you think it will take you to become a better communicator? In other words, how long do you think this restriction needs to be in place for? A month? 2 months? Obviously, it can't be less than at least a few weeks. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

First of all there is no wikipedia rule which would force you to make edit summary by default, if you don't believe me I can show you at least 100 examples of edits without edit summary in my area of interest in the last month and none of them was warned let alone hit with a severe 1RR restriction + forced to make comments on a talk page and then waiting for 3 hours before making an edit which btw seems to be a punishment invented for myself. (What is here also a bit comical is that I have made only one revert on each of those two articles, one of which I even self-reverted, so what exactly is the point to put me on a 1RR other than to tarnish my reputation? You see the twisted logic I have not made more than 1 revert but I have to be put on 1RR). Second you seems to ignore one of my points I made somewhere above so I will point it out again: the last I have tried to communicate with user:Matthead, he told me to "go elsewhere". As such blaming the failure to communicate with Matthead on me is a bit absurd. Loosmark (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I've never said that the other editor does not deserve similar treatment - it has already been suggested by others throughout this thread, and based on the situation, appears to have validity. Your complaint here was about your treatment, and the claims that that admin was "involved". Your complaint would have been better off acknowledging the situation, and suggesting that you should not be the only one being limited. A quick note: the best place to discuss the article content is on the article talkpage - it you took it to an editor's talkpage, then "go elsewhere" is a pretty valid response. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

BWilkins may I politely ask you what the hell are you talking about? I did not take that to any editor's talk page, it was on the article's talk page. And apart from that even if I had tried to communicate with the said editor on his talk page a reply as "go elsewhere" would have been just lame. Loosmark (talk) 19:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

As you're deciding to selectively read portions of what I say, I'm out. I'm trying to help you and this is the response - otherwise, your request appears to be going nowhere. Good luck. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Your comment was the following one the best place to discuss the article content is on the article talkpage - it you took it to an editor's talkpage, then "go elsewhere" is a pretty valid response. I have only pointed out that I did not take that on an editors talkpage but rather on the article page. I hope I have the right to correct the blatant error you have made, even more so since it's pretty crucial here: I am being accused of not being able to communicating with user:Matthead while the last I have tried to do so I was told "go somewhere else". Loosmark (talk) 19:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Some of these naming battles are pretty lame, but it takes two to tango, and if FPaS wants to be even handed, at the very least he should give his co-national Matthead a commensurate sanction, considering Matthead's block log against Loosmark's block log. --Martin (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

As I noted on Loosmark's talk, the restriction is hardly a major issue - it enforces good editing practices. Duration needs to be specified, certainly. I'll also agree with comments above - it takes two to tango, and a similar restriction should be put on the other side of this dramu (re: Matthead - please note he just recently came out from a 6-month 1RR limitation...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the most inappropriate part is #3 about waiting three hours. It appears to be just designed to make editing as onerous as possible - and then when at some point in the future Loosmark waits 2 hours and 45 minutes, instead of 3, some "uninvolved admin's" going to jump in on the chance to extent the restriction to an outright block for "not heeding former warnings". Perhaps, it'll first proceeded by a formal report at AE filed by a "concerned editor".radek (talk) 22:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Every part of the sanction is inappropriate, for example sooner or later I will forget to make an edit summary in a completely uncontrovesial edit and I'll get punished by FP. Or for example I revert a vandalism and then Future Perfect will pop up say it's not vandalism and punish me again. Loosmark (talk) 22:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the edit-summary matter is easily handled: Go to your preferences, click on the "Editing" tag, and check the box next to "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary." If you forget, you will be prompted to add a summary when you attempt to save the edit. Deor (talk) 01:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark, the editor who had said good bye three weeks ago, and five days ago went on a long wikibreak, and was Digwuren-restricted just yesterday, is still following me around, to e.g. the article and talk about West Germany, to oppose me, to revert me and to provoke me there. And even after sockpuppeteering accusations have been debunked, he beats that dead horse again. Apparently, Loosmark can't let loose of this habits. As a seemingly disappointed Piotrus points out above, I have weathered the 1RR-restriction imposed by Sandstein asymmetrically on me (but not on Radeksz, then the other side of the dramu) six months ago, despite the EEML-coordinated efforts of Radeksz, Jacurek, Tymek, Piotrus, Molobo, Poeticbent, Loosmark etc. to "provide enough rope for Matthead to hang" me with, as Radeksz had put it in an EEML message of his (). BTW: my name was mentioned no less than nine times in this Loosmark vs. FPaS thread, also by User:Martintg, with whom I have nothing to do except being occasionally a target of his "the enemy of my friends is my enemy" acts in support of his EEML comrades. Back then, I could not figure out why a stranger is so eager to get me blocked. Since the EEML leaked, that became clear, while other things were obvious already years ago. And now, even during the ongoing EEML Arbcom case, the EEML veterans are demonstrating their usual behavior of showing up in large numbers to defend their friends and attack their foes. Seen many times, and still incredible. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I was not a member of EEML nor any other mailing list and this case has nothing to do with that case. I find it interesting that both the admin FP and Matthead try to derail the discussion into a EEML mess hoping that the real issue will be obfuscated. And frankly I have noted a disturbing phenomenon that on this ANI page a number of editors started to exploit the EEML case by accusing editors who have nothing to do with EEML and disagree with them as members of EEML or that they are coordinated off wiki to defame them. Maybe it's time this issue gets addressed because it's becoming ridicolous. Matthead's accusation that I am following him is also simply not true. I have opposed his proposal on the West Germany article talk page simply because I disagree him on that. And I'm not the only one since almost everybody else there opposes his idea of merging. Everybody is free to check that. Loosmark (talk) 22:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

FP: multiple users (all involved with the well-known EEML group) As a bona fide certified member of the EEML group, I would like to remind FP (who read the private emails extensively) and Matthead (who also obviously read private emails) that Loosmark was not part of the group and in fact opinions on his edits were split and divided among group members. Since FP and Matthead have read every single of our private emails with great care, they both know this. So why are they bringing it up, even though it's totally unrelated.

One of the things I most regret about the mailing list fiasco (let me stress the "one of the things" before somebody ABFs me here) is that it has now given cynical manipulators like Anti-Nationalist, Dojarca, Matthead and apparently now Future Perfect an excuse (however flimsy - but people don't check on these things) to smear and attack completely innocent unassociated people like Loosmark or Termer (see thread about Anti-Nationalist/PasswordUsername above ) and god knows who else, simply because it's in the interest of pushing their POV (or in FP's case, who knows why).

Hey at least I'm guilty of some stuff. Those guys aren't. Have the decency to leave them the hell alone.radek (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

FP might consider their talk page is on editors' watchlist. Stating "if I didn't have the impression that there is still a group strategy going on here, with multiple users (all involved with the well-known EEML group) appearing immediately on my talk page to pile on" is no different than Viriditas' allegations at the EEML case based on their perceptions of timings. I am sorry, but voicing such impressions in the absence of any evidence is inappropriate, along with the accusatory "well-known EEML group." Well-known as what, exactly, is FP saying here?  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  23:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Fieldday-sunday - removal of rollback rights needed

Fieldday-sunday seems to have a persistent problem with reverting good faith edits and warning users of vandalism. The user's (talk page) has many complaints about this. I'm not sure if its malicious, but I suspect it's careless use of Misplaced Pages:Huggle. Thanks, Pdcook (talk) 18:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a case of, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If Huggle makes it easy to undo an edit and warn for vandalism in one click, the tool might get overused. However, I haven't seen anything that says Fieldday-sunday is reverting in bad faith, so if anything, a little counseling on the appropriate use of the tool, and a reminder to use edit summaries where it's not a clear-cut vandalism situation, would be appropriate. —C.Fred (talk) 19:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I also don't think the edits are in bad faith and I think a friendly counseling note would be helpful. However, as I am not personally familiar with the tool, I should not be the one to deliver such advice. Anyone? Pdcook (talk) 20:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the user's talk page, it looks like many have offered advice in the past. Is there a more effective route here? Pdcook (talk) 14:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Woah! I haven't seen that many complaints on a user's talk page since OrphanBot!--66.177.73.86 (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't you need rollback to use Huggle? If he's generating that many complaints, he should have rollback rights removed. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

If that's the case, then I think that's a good course of action. This user has had another complaint appear on his talk page since this thread was started. Will someone do something? Thanks, Pdcook (talk) 13:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've amended the title. Hopefully it will spark a response as it's now clearer what the issue is. Admin should look at talk page - it's full of complaints that appear valid about improper removal of edits using rollback and Huggle. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Pdcook (talk) 01:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed Fieldday's rollback rights, due to repeated complaints at his talk page of hasty usage. He was likely acting in good faith, and this does not bar his potential to regain rollback - however, I note that he appears to rarely reply to these (legitimate) complaints, and needs to be sure to truly acknowledge these issues before regaining access to rollback. His reply here is welcome. Regards, JamieS93 01:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Wiki being used as chat room

• Webkinzanswers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Webkinz102 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Two (apparently young) users, whose edits consist almost entirely of chat on each others talk pages, with no useful contributions. Both have been warned that "Misplaced Pages is not a social network", but these notices have gone unheeded. WuhWuzDat 20:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

There's more of them. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 21:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

They're likely the same person, carrying on a converstation with him/herself, in hopes of establishing 2-accounts. GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• On the off-chance that these are different people who are well intentioned, but a bit misguided, did anyone think to notify these accounts so they too can comment at this thread? --Jayron32 21:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not "two young users". That's one 42-year-old man editing Misplaced Pages from his mother's basement under multiple accounts to amuse himself.--66.177.73.86 (talk) 23:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Hang on--Would someone with a better-functioning memory than mine, please confirm my suspicion that we've dealt with something like this from a "Webkinz__"-named user in the past? This looks terribly familiar...GJC 15:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

69.228.171.150 already posted a link to every single user named "Webkins_". There's tons of them. What we are dealing with here is someone... who has absolutely no life.--66.177.73.86 (talk) 15:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Well to be fair, webkins are (I believe) a toy line with some internet gimmick about them. Its not terribly shocking to me that many of these webkins_ accounts might be made by kids (tho perhaps shocking that parents are letting their kids wander about the wilds of wikipedia) who might not have a concept that wikipedia isn't myspace or facetwit or a webkins forum. Syrthiss (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

My daughter has an account, but she's only used it once. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I've been editing here since I was 10. But look at these "Webkinz" accounts. These are not children. It's one person - most likely a 42-year-old man who lives in his mother's basement - having a conversation with himself because nobody else wants to. It's a troll.--66.177.73.86 (talk) 16:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

(e/c x2) Not logging in because I'm editing from work. This name does sound familiar for some type of incident. Check the prefix index for webkinz. I support an additional warning, advising that they (if, indeed, "they" applies) make some useful contributions and cease the constant irrelevant chatter or be blocked. By the way, Wuhwuzdat, this site is called Misplaced Pages, not wiki. A wiki is any website using wiki software; there are thousands of them.--173.68.35.67 (talk) 15:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is this idiot still not blocked yet? Could it be any more obvious?--66.177.73.86 (talk) 23:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Umm... you know that bit on your talk page about not wanting to be blocked anymore? You might want to take another look at WP:NPA. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, like anyone's really gonna block me for calling a vandal/troll an "idiot"... >_> --66.177.73.86 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hrs for calling someone a vandal, troll, and idiot. We mean WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

IP edits by LotLE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Sockmaster account: Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

In particular, LotLE has been a highly disruptive and combative SPA for years, with multiple reports at 3RR and ANI. His modus operandi is to immediately revert any new edit that contains negative information about a left-of-center political figure or organization, with an inflammatory edit summary that falsely accuses the editor of soapboxing, ranting and/or sockpuppetry. .... WP:SOCK specifically prohibits the use of multiple accounts to "mislead or deceive other editors." The first example of abuse of an alternate account is "Creating an illusion of support: Alternate accounts must not be used to give the impression of more support for a position than actually exists." The fourth example is "Contributing to the same page with multiple accounts: Editors may not use more than one account to contribute to the same page or discussion." At no time, either on the ACORN Talk page or in one of his many edit summaries, did LotLE identify the IP account 149.77.79.116 as his own alternate account. He says, "I do not recall why I was not logged in when those edits were made... probably because of some weirdness with Misplaced Pages not keeping the login cookie when I use the SSL version (I've found this annoyance lately)." If he had inadvertently edited without being logged in, a quick follow-up edit while logged in (to claim the edit as his own) would have satisfied WP:SOCK. Unfortunately, LotLE's failure to acknowledge that the edit was his until now, under CU scrutiny, indicates deliberate deception.

Obviously, this report by Phoenix and Winslow is just as silly as his recently failed SSP fishing trip. I have never used any sockpuppet account, and never will (a bit more than P&W could write, FWIW). P&W's original silly SSP adventure pointed out that, for example, I made:

• This edit under an IP address: , in which I attempted to sign my comment (containing, "I would note..."), but was inadvertently still logged out.
• Followed a few minutes later by this: (with the edit comment: "(what the heck?! Every time I try to sign WP logs me off signon)".

So my insidious "sockpuppetry" amounts to experiencing occasional problems with my browser losing cookies when I use the SSL login... including one example where I did not go back to sign a completely innocuous edit under an IP address.

I wonder what new WP admin pages P&W (or his IP addresses) will find to WP:FORUM shop next?! LotLE×talk 21:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

You were in fact edit warring, isn't that correct? And in light of the persistent problems you've had with WP policy over the years -- especially WP:3RR -- while your technical explanation for the IP puppet edit here at WP:ANI holds water, your technical explanation at ACORN is just a little bit ... hard to believe. Particularly since you were in fact edit warring at the time. Sounds like "the dog ate my homework." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

P&W -- it's beyond blindingly obvious that you're a returned banned user. Most people at this point would just let it slide if you would drop the drama mongering, deceptive practices (cutting a pasting a beyond frivolous SPI report by a POV-pushing IP editor? Please.) and overall unpleasantness. Really, just push your POV with less of this nonsense and you'll get a lot of rope. Keep this up and you will get the boot again.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to the forum shopping charge, my understanding is that WP:SPI is strictly for the purpose of finding out about sockpuppetry, while the remedy for sockpuppetry once it's found out must be obtained here. If that understanding is mistaken, I apologize. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The SPI report was dismissed as frivolous and unworthy of investigation. Which you well know. You just don't make any sense -- whatever else you are, you know no one here is dumb enough to block someone you view as an opponent because you cut and paste walls of text. Funnily enough, this is precisely the method of the Kossack4Truth sock/meat-puppet farm.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:17, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Bad news is, I have no particular authority to "resolve" this, but good news is, I'm completely uninvolved. I have absolutely no idea if P&W is a returning banned user or not; for those saying he is, SSI is that way. But from a review of the IP edits which LOTLE takes credit for, I'd say there was only one edit that is at all worrying, where a third revert was made. Occam's razor says that this is, indeed, a simple login/logout problem, rather than a devious trick. The hyperbole above seems pretty excessive for what amounts to one logged out edit. No harm, no foul, I would say. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

That is correct, Floquenbeam. The edit under my IP address you point out was indeed on the same article I had recently (and subsequently) edited while logged in. It was the first per se revert I made during that day, but it was definitely addressing the same stylistic cleanup that P&W was resisting, and it's conceivable you could cast the series of edits under warring (implausible, but not outrageously so). So I guess if P&W wants to file a week old 1RR report on me, he should definitely include that edit under my IP address in that report. LotLE×talk 22:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't tell if you're being wry or not; is there a 1RR sanction on ACORN, or on you? I looked thru WP:SANCTION and WP:RESTRICT and could only find restrictions on other individuals (not you), and the general "behave yourselves" restrictions at WP:SANCTION. If there was a 1RR limit, then... you shouldn't have done that. But that's beyond my ken, the only task I chose to bite off was looking at is the claimed "sock" behavior, which I think is serious overkill. It now occurs to me, as I'm about to hit save, that I wasted my time, and it's more likely you're being wry, and saying that was your first true revert, and so not a big deal anyway. I'd, disagree, I'd call it your third that day, and if I thought you'd logged out on purpose because it was your third one, I'd be concerned. I don't, so I'm not. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC) Also looked here: Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Obama article probation/Log of sanctions. Still no 1RR restriction on you I can find.

Wry is a nice way to put it :-). In fairness, I think it can be said that I was being snarky (not about you, Floquenbeam, about P&W). There is indeed no special edit restriction placed on ACORN, although another editor who frequently socks has received clarification that his Obama topic ban includes adding material to ACORN to try to negatively tie the two together. I have a strong hunch that these newest complaints against me have a strong relation to some prior bans or blocks of those other editors who go very far out of their way to acclaim the virtues of accounts like User:Noroton and User:ChildOfMidnight. LotLE×talk 23:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• It should be noted that Phoenix and Winslow, while he may or may not be banned under another account, clearly has another account, and appears to be using this new account to avoid scrutiny, as she/he has not ever linked the two accounts together publicly. Such behavior should not go unaddressed. --Jayron32 23:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

This matter appears to be concluded, with the exception of the usual drive-by pile-on "me too!" from the unregistered IP user who has been joined to Phoenix at the hip lately (perhaps he got held up in traffic). We've cleared up Phoenix's gross misrepresentation of facts:

→ "Admits sockpuppetry" has proven to really mean "confirmed inadvertantly making a couple edits while unlogged"

→ "User is a long term problem editor" has proven to really mean "User is going on 6 years of Misplaced Pages editing, and getting Phoenix's or 71.54.8.103's problematic or unconstructive edits past him is difficult"

→ "He used the IP address to avoid 3RR warning" has proven to really mean Phoenix has no clue. Five+ year veteran editors that have previously been warned and blocked don't get warnings - they are assumed to know the rules, and he didn't violate 3RR anyway.

→ "and I agree that " has proven to really mean these two editors are still in lock-step with their persistent attacks against LotLE, like this waste of time or this waste here.

Before this incident scrolls its way up the page and into the archives, I'd like to know if Misplaced Pages has any rules or sanctions against the misuse of various noticeboards to harass and intimidate editors. Xenophrenic (talk) 03:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, talk about being in lockstep. LotLE, Bali ultimate and Xenophrenic look like the textbook definition of that word. 71.57.8.103 (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Its only a WP:CABAL if you want it to be. Let's move on and chill with the IP-initiated fishing expeditions, shall we? Tarc (talk) 14:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

All of the defenses being offered by LotLE and his friends were previously offered in defense of Noroton. "It didn't hurt anything." "There weren't a lot of edits made." Motives for turning him in were questioned. And he was still blocked for weeks. LotLE used his IP puppet account to perform his third revert in a 24-hour period, producing a prima facie case of abusive sockpuppetry, and he has an extensive history of blocks and warnings for edit warring. While he did not technically violate WP:3RR, he violates WP:WAR, WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF on a universal basis.

Much has been said about his six-year history, as if that's supposed to excuse his misconduct. It is a combative history, loaded with edit warring and mean-spirited little jabs in his edit summaries. It seems as though every time there's an ArbCom or an ANI thread about US political articles, LotLE has been involved, stirring up shit and deliberately provoking people, and barely escaping restrictions on his editing. He's been playing all of you like a violin. As I see it, the only way to stop this misconduct is to block him. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Guy, you took your shot and no-one's buying what you're selling: moving the words around and being more emphatic hasn't disguised the recycling. Move on or you're going to attract a lot of unwanted attention. --Calton | Talk 16:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This will keep coming back to haunt you, until you do something about it. He'll never stop. There is the consistent repetition of a pattern of low-level edit-warring, provocation and baiting, and now he's discovered he can use sockpuppet accounts for his edit warring and explain it away with an "oopsie." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

P&W -- Your above comment is constructed entirely of lies. I suppose you think that you'll successfully poison the well this way. But lies like these are easy to uncover. You should really stop the game playing designed to get a user you don't like blocked. At some point an admin will get tired of this.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

All anyone has to do is review LotLE's edit history, and he will realize that you're the one who's lying. It's long, it's detailed, and it shows all of his edit warring, his snide remarks on Talk pages and his disgraceful edit summaries. He now has a new weapon in his edit warring arsenal: the "oopsie" IP sockpuppet. I will survive all the attention anyone cares to give me, and I'll keep making quality edits and improving the encyclopedia. Threaten me all you like, thug. I will not be intimidated. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Go buzz, Peeanddoubleyoo, we aren't buying this drek. -Jeremy 21:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Two points -

1. I blocked Phoenix and Winslow for 24 hrs shortly after the "Thug comment" for personal attacks and incivility. I may reduce that time, but he's been blocked for a while.

2. Several people above engaged in back and forth rude behavior with Phoenix and Winslow, which while not rising to the level of blockable was far from our finest moment. We need to respond to abrasive and upset users in a calm, civil, and adult manner, especially here on ANI. I don't think PandW was taunted into his comment per se, but the combined effects here certainly escalated rather than calming the situation down. Anytime that happens, that the ANI regulars let ANI become a drama-inducing rather than reducing location, we all lose.

Please reconsider your own actions going forwards. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

A lot of good that will do, George. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

World Genseiryū Karate-dō Federation

Is this the right place for this? I came across this article and a pretty crazy long running edit war. There are 2 editors User:Mario Roering and User:Peter Lee that have been warring ] for along time now. They are currently warring over "Name slendering" but have, according to Lee, been arguing for 5-6 years. The history ] shows numerous reversions by both that far exceed 3RR or edit warring. Could an admin please have a word with these 2 or maybe find them a room? Both know that they are right and both have the appropriate excuses for continuing the madness. - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

3RR warnings issued to both users, if you think its appropriate, I'll put a RFPP in as well. Frmatt (talk) 05:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll get back to you on the RfPP. I am going to leave it alone for now and let them calm down a bit. Thank you - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem, I'll watchlist it for a while and see what happens. The 3RR warning is a single issue warning, so any further actions by either of them would be cause for a block...which might be a good thing in this case as it would give them both time to calm down! Frmatt (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I've taken it to the edit warring noticeboard.

So they've been warring for 4 years over an article with no sources? Any evidence this is a notable organization?--Crossmr (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch; and that dang XfD tab doesn't show up on this computer :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"Name slendering"? Oh, great--it's not bad enough that as females, we have to worry about whether our butts are too big, or how bad our cellulite looks...and NOW I hafta worry whether my NAME is too fat???? Jeez. GJC 15:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if I am allowed to post on this page - if not, just move it to where I should have posted it. This editwar has not only been going on on en.wikipedia, but at least as well on nl.wikipedia (see for example ), which I handled back in 2005 (!). This is in fact not just two people who are in conflict about this issue, but two organizations. Don't be too surprized if both come up with some supporters. However, back then, Mario Roering and Peter Lee were both blocked after attempts of mediation. effeietsanders 18:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Update: Both editors have been handed a time-out for 24 hours by Seraphimblade. Reviewing the edit history of this article, I'm strongly tempted to recommend that the next conflict over it ought to be settled in a dojo. -- llywrch (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

note: This edit war dates back to 2005. I attempted to mediate back then but got nowhere. Eventually a RfC was started (see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Peter_Lee_and_Mario_Roering) but Peter Lee refused to participate and eventually chose to leave Misplaced Pages--at the time he said permanently. Since that time Mario Roering has continued to edit Misplaced Pages, but avoided editing the disputed pages so all was quiet for a time. Peter Lee returned in July this year and set about reworking the disputed pages to his liking. I have discussed with him (both on and off wiki) the need for reliable sources for the articles. He has told me that sources that meet WP:RS don't exist and he has expressed his desire to see the three contested articles deleted. I suggested that he PROD them, but that was contested and he didn't move forward to AfD. Since July it has been only a matter of time before the edit war restarted, in fact, I'm surprised it took so long. Both Peter and Mario have been blocked in the past for edit waring, and they are well aware of the 3RR and all other Misplaced Pages rules and guidelines. Anyone feeling up for a challenge might like to wade through the history of Peter Lee's talk page and the talk pages of the three disputed articles to see if a resolution can be found.—Jeremy (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Joy. I removed a CSD tag from the article today as 4twenty42o and Mario said they were going try to find sources to establish notability. I proposed a seven day limit, stressed WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NOR, and removed some unsourced coatracking material. Mario was amenable to the edits; we'll see how Peter responds once he comes off his block. --NeilN 05:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, NeilN. I will surely see what I can do...

Something else: Above here, effeietsanders wrote the following: "However, back then, Mario Roering and Peter Lee were both blocked after attempts of mediation". May I add to this, that I was indeed blocked ONCE for 12 hours (which was however, in all honesty, extended to 1 week) for removing a post by Peter Lee on the Genseiryu talk page, because I didn't accept that defamatory text on my behalf, making all kinds of false accusations and putting me in a bad daylight. Not the right action to do, should have gone to administrators with that, but I learned from it. Now, PETER LEE on the other hand, got blocked several times for vandalizing articles and eventually had a block for ONE FULL YEAR (see here: ), for unwillingness to co-operate and for continuous reverting of articles and constant aggressive behavior. Don't want to be defaming here, but let it be clear that there is a distinct difference between the person of Peter Lee and myself... Thank you. --MarioR 14:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Spamming user

Suz Doyle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Got under the radar somehow. Not a lot of pages. But if someone would like to zap this user, feel free. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Zap? Are you sure that's the right account? It hasn't been used for 18 months and has a redlinked talk page. Instead of instabanzapping, have you considered advising this user of our policies and guidelines, and encouraging them to contribute some content on music? -- zzuuzz 12:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

All the diffs appear to be promotional in some nature..but yes the account hasn't edited in 18 months.. I can't see the point in bring it here for blocking, unless its secretly some kind of sleeper spam account that is just waiting for the right moment to strike.--Crossmr (talk) 12:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

All of its spamming was reverted quickly except for one entry which an alert user caught today, and of course its own user page is spam, but maybe that doesn't matter. The spammer edited in the late fall of 07 and then in spring of 08 and has been silent since then, at least under that ID. If you don't want to delete the account, that's up to y'all. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Immediate intervention, mon ami ;-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

??? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

He's obliquely referring to language in the blocking policy and at AIV which states that blocks should only be issued for situations that require immediate intervention (the blocking policy currently uses the phrase "Preventing imminent or continuing damage and disruption to Misplaced Pages", but its the same idea). The point is, an inactive account does not need to be blocked. If it becomes active again, and if it continues problems, it may be blocked. But there is no reasonable evidence to assume, after 18 months, that it will do so, so a block would be pointless. --Jayron32 21:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm always amused when someone takes longer to argue for not doing something, than the time actually doing it would take. One remaining question: Any objections to my blanking the user page? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

A little extra time schooling people on blocking policies and procedures in theory will pay off when less people inappropriately report accounts which do not need to be blocked either here or at AIV. A little education on the front end may take some extra time, but ideally it will have the effect of reducing the number of inappropriate block requests, saving lots of little bits of time in the back end which more than make up for the effort put forth here. --Jayron32 02:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The editor got a free spam ride for a year and a half in one article, and while that has now been corrected, the user page continues to be a self-advertisement. Any objection to my blanking it? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I did you one better. Its been bahleeted. --Jayron32 03:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing. :) Rest assured that if they turn up again on the one page that was only caught today, I will be sure and eddycate them. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User Gilbrand renaming article without consensus.

There was a request for it to be moved, the admin said there was no consensus: There was also a request for the article to be deleted: the majority of votes voted to keep the article without it to be renamed: User:Gilabrand has went against these things, moved the article himself while claiming "its not a list" and adding irrelevant text to the article topic: he has added the nuclear reactor thing before and it was removed by another editor: . He has also re added the hama massacre link which was also removed by another editor: claiming that the List is an article about Syria is destroying its own villages notice here that another pro Israeli editor has removed three sources saying that Israel destroyed the villages. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have notified Gilbrand about this discussion. GiantSnowman 15:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there's some POV-pushing by Gilabrand and others going on. While the move from "List of Pre-1967 ..." to "Pre-1967..." probably was in good faith (since the article did become much less of a list), the effort to remove any indication of destruction of villages by Israel (including the removal of a scholarly source as "unreliable" by User:Jalapenos do exist, here) while at the same time adding anything and everything "bad" the Syrians did, whether related to pre-1967 villages or not, makes assuming good faith rather difficult. Huon (talk) 17:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The Arab Center for Human Rights in the Golan has no reputation and it is self-evidently radical and partisan. As such it is not an RS by a long shot. For the record, I did not add anything that anybody did to the article. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The reactor was sited 300 km east/northeast of the Golan Heights and 40 years later... Gilabrand seems to be throwing stuff on the wall trying to make it stick here.

I am somewhat concerned about the POVness of the article without Israeli influence, but Gilabrand is certainly not adding reasonable additional content at this point. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment -- Regardless of the article's name, after the discussion on the AfD and the RfC, I'm concerned that the article, as its written, is not being used for encyclopedic purposes but as an intentional WP:POVFORK and to make a WP:POINT. What could have been a neutral encyclopedic article discussing and/or listing cities or villages depopulated prior to Israel gaining control of the Golan Heights, has become an article full of weasle words and is being used to vilify and trash both Israelis and Syrians. --nsaum75 18:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

While I do not agree with everything User:Gilabrand is doing, the overall consensus at the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel debate was to either rename or delete entirely. User:Supreme Deliciousness, is your purpose in creating this article to make note of villages that once existed, or the fact that Israel destroyed them (notwithstanding the fact that they were abandoned)? I see a very pointy pattern here. Shlomke (talk) 18:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That was not the finding of the closing administrator, who closed as "Keep". There was a significant "Keep but rename" contingent. Shlomke - attempting to misrepresent either consensus or the closing admin's determination is not acceptable behavior here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert - where do you see me referring to the closing admin?? Attempting to tell a user what they are attempting to do is not at all acceptable either, thanks Shlomke (talk) 19:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

As I said, Gilabrand's page move isn't much of a problem. Whether the move done by The Anome a little earlier really had consensus may be an interesting question, but that's not what this is about, is it?

And while Supreme Deliciousness may have a personal bias (who hasn't?), most of his edits to this article are backed up by sources, with the exception of his stripping the article back down to the list it originally was here and here. And I'd consider at least the first of those edits more of a disagreement about whether we want more than just a list or not than pushing any particular pov or making a point. The second does seem a little dubious. Huon (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the move without consensus, there is this amazing bit of coatracking by user Gilabrand. It doesn't look to me like the behaviour of someone who is here to build an encyclopedia.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but the fault in the problems with this article lies not solely on Gilabrand, but also with the creator of this article, who has a history of making controversial edits and creating POV-articles; The subject at hand is how to turn it into a neutrally worded encylopedic article, instead of the POVFORK and POINT article is currently is. --nsaum75 19:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The article was created to stir up controversy. It started out as a long list of red links to dozens of "villages" with made-up sounding names, many of them simply the same name spelled differently. This person names an article 101 Cities and villages destroyed by Israel (after leaving anti-Israel and anti-Semitic comments on a variety of pages) and then goes sniveling to administrators when his unsourced POV article gets "tampered with." Yes, I am guilty of WP:POINT. But now that I have made that point, I tip my hat and say goodbye. The article is already vastly improved compared to what it was before. At least it has a few sources and a little more substance.--Gilabrand (talk) 19:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Someone may query why I put in a move-for-discussion Pre-1967 Syrian towns on the Golan Heights → List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel. That is because someone put that move in Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Uncontroversial requests, but a look in Talk:Pre-1967 Syrian towns on the Golan Heights showed me that that move was acrimoniously lengthily controversial, so I transferred the move to the moves for discussion. This dispute looks like getting to be one of those cases where the discussion about moving or deleting the article quickly becomes longer than the article. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Admin help needed:

After the afd and rfm there was no consensus for it to be moved, can some admin please move the article back to its real name from the one that Gilbrand forced upon the article? If people want to change its name we should begin at the articles real name, not something no one has agreed to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3APre-1967_Syrian_towns_on_the_Golan_Heights&action=historysubmit&diff=326483118&oldid=326466563 http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Syrian_towns_and_villages_destroyed_by_Israel --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment -- Seems like a sensible move to me (and not that I wouldnt say that about most of this editors edits on this article). It seems to be the article name that is both the most neutral and the article name that corresponds to what the sources say (i.e. most, but not all villages were abandoned and then demolished or destroyed, making it unclear whether we should call the article List of abandoned... or List of destroyed...). In any case this is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article talk page. But all the drama sourrounding this article makes it doubtful whether it is really a net gain for Misplaced Pages, or rather an additional drama magnet with each side trying to push its own POV into the article, thereby disgracing Misplaced Pages. Pantherskin (talk) 21:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The proper way to move an article is through discussion on the talk page and RfM. There was such a discussion and consensus did not support such a move. There was then an AfD which also did not result in a consensus for rename (although I argued for a rename myself). We simply should not allow such actions against consensus to be left unreverted. I hope that an admin will move it back so that further discussion can take place according to our policies. Unomi (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

As long as admins are looking at this article

The most serious problem with the article is that, since its inception, it has been sourced almost entirely to the Arab Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Golan. This is an organization with no reputation and which is self-evidently radical and partisan. Retaining the article in this form without objection could set a precedent under which everybody will rush to create articles serving their own POV lifted straight out of - say - Richard Landes' blog (he is an academic after all), or - to take a more extreme hypothetical - articles like List of reasons the world is flat sourced to the Flat Earth Society. Bearing all this in mind, I think an admin statement reminding of Misplaced Pages's core principles could be helpful. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This is not true, there are many sources other then the Arab Center golan-marsad link in the article, including Israeli sources saying the same thing. The fact is that the list of villages in the golan-marsad link ]is also confirmed in a separate source which lists almost all the same villages and a third site finds the villages in the golan-marsad document which gives us no reason to doubt the truthiness of the golan-marsad document.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)--

This should be discussed either on the article's talk page or on the Reliable sources noticeboard. I'll answer on the talk page; involving the noticeboard seems overkill. Huon (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User:SarekOfVulcan removes questions on ArbCom election

I asked a candidate some questions of his past behaviour and performance, User:SarekOfVulcan removed them. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• Let's all give Sarek of Vulcan a round of applause. Your "question" should be in the "discuss this candidate" section, where you can write whatever you want about the candidate. Hipocrite (talk) 15:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I will look for the "discuss this candidate section", but these were legitimate questions. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• I have notified SarekOfVulcan about this discussion. --Mentifisto (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
• (ec) HarryAlffa, you really shouldn't have opened this without first discussing it with SarekOfVulcan. And even if you did file it, you should notify the subject as the instructions at the top indicate. Why didn't you fulfil at least one of these steps? Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Yes, I should have done that, but I was waiting to see if he was stalking me. What do you think? HarryAlffa (talk) 15:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I've tried talking to Sarek before eg, but with no response. It seemed an unproductive effort to try yet again. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

You should assume good faith. At least, you should've disclosed the fact you didn't notify Sarek and request someone else to do so if it was getting that tense or something - but I don't think this was one of those situations. Do you really think one prior discussion is sufficient to justify not trying to have another (and it's a separate matter)? Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I've had admin ignore polite comments before. I think it's downright rude. Isn't that what Harry is being accused of being with his questions? Even impolite questions and comments can be acknowledged, especially by admins. And I see on Harry's talk page that while several editors made polite suggestions and have opened discussion, there isn't anything there from Sarek. Not a good showing for an admin. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• Looks like a good call on Sarek's part. Per Hipocrite, saying " not think that you simply lack the intellectual ability to handle any case that would come to ArbCom" is not actually a question for the candidate. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
  • TenOfAllTrades also summarises my view on the merits of this. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Please try talking to someone before reporting them. 15:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Chillum, edit conflict - answered above. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That was in September. 22:04, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

TenOfAllTrades, you've quoted out of context, and presented my question as a statement.

Given that you were confused by the use of transitive property in this talk page, you do not think that you simply lack the intellectual ability to handle any case that would come to ArbCom, as it is certain that they will be more complex than that simple question?

— HarryAlffa

. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

You may as well have been asking him if he has stopped beating his wife. These kinds of questions are wholly inappropriate and SoV was right to remove it. Shereth 16:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

On top of that, based on the "innocent until proven guilty" concept, saying "considering I'm taking you to ArbCom over something" ... that's a major poisoning of the well, and unless you have a !conviction, it's 100% irrelevant and unethical (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Shereth, and I believe that all of your so-called questions are rhetorically-phrased, thinly-veiled attacks. I don't think that my quote was misleading. As well, your (HarryAlffa's) comments in the discussion to which you linked seem to indicate a pattern of persistently incivil and tendentious conduct on your own part in an article dispute, rather than reflecting badly on the candidate (as you might have wished). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the question was a disruptive personal attack and its removal was correct. Election question pages are not venues for pursuing personal disputes with a candidate, which is what this "question" was clearly about.  Sandstein  17:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I concur and have left Harry a final warning for personal attacks and incivility. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Shereth, stopped beating his wife, applies as much as if I had said, "Here is some video of you beating your wife, have you stopped?" HarryAlffa (talk) 21:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm very troubled by this thread. Why not let voters weigh the pertinence of the question(s) for themselves and let Rusilik speak for himself? What's the big deal? I don't know why we would need Sarek or anyone else to be the arbiter of which questions can be asked. It seems obvious that the questions are leading. And so what? This seems to me to be much ado about nothing. If Sarek didn't like the questions or thought they were poorly phrased, I'm sure he consulted with HarryAlffa and suggested how they could be modified or why they were inappropriate before just unilaterally removing them right? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

There really isn't any way to modify questions down the line of "Wouldn't you agree that you're too stupid to be on Arbcom?" that isn't as insulting as the original.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with: Do you have the intellectual competence and rigor to be an admin? It's not a question I find particularly useful or interesting, but I don't think you should take it upon yourself to unilaterally decide which questions are okay to ask. At the very least it would have been courteous to remove the questions in good faith and explain why to the editor who posted them. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

If you follow the link, you will see Ruslik was confused by the use of transitive property in the question. If he was confused by that, what chance has he got of handling stuff at ArbCom? It is a naturally flowing question from his bemusement to that question. Do you really want someone who failed to understand such a simple thing in such an important role? HarryAlffa (talk) 17:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

ANI is not an appropriate location for a fork of the arbcom discussion itself. DMacks (talk) 17:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It was not what I suggested. "It is a naturally flowing question from his bemusement to that question." This was in direct support of my view that it is reasonable to question his intellectual capability. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Tell me why this offends your sensibilities:

I have seen examples of poor usage of English from you frequently on Misplaced Pages, as can be seen from some of your answers on this page. You do not think that this lack of skill greatly hampers all communication by you?

— HarryAlffa

If there are no reasoned objections (it pertains to one of the general questions) I will ask this question again with some appropriate diffs. HarryAlffa (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not a good question because it's leading. You work a statement of your own view into what you're asking, instead of inquiring on the candidates views and opinion. At the very least, try rewording/ rephrasing it so it's straightforward. "Are there limitations to your English language skills that would hamper your ability to be an arbcom?" Or, "how do you view your handling of our dispute over the pavlovian theorem as it relates to interstellar commerce?" But moreover, it looks like you have a disagreement with that editor and are carrying out some vendetta. I suspect the vast majority of editors reading the discussion will discount your views/ questions because of that. If you have legitimate concerns try to communicate them fairly and reasonably. What exactly is your concern about that candidate? (This is a rhetorical question intended to spur you to reflection and the rendering of more appropriate questions or refraining from them all together as you see fit). ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

As written, it's a pretty straightforward Mu (negative). You're asking him to answer a question by accepting and taking for granted that a complaint/opinion you have of him is valid. DMacks (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

"Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?" Zhaozhou answered: "Mu." ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Several cordial and collegial editors have made suggestions on your talk page (and of course there's the usual bullying from one of Misplaced Pages's abusive, antagonistic and disruptive wikicops), so I think discussion can continue there as this thread seems to be resolved with no need for administrative action. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Harry, regardless of your reasoning, do you acknowledge that several people have found the question to be inappropriate? If so, what do you take from that? 21:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Banned user User:Rodgarton socking/personal attacks

It seems pretty clear to me that these edits to Precognition are banned user Rodgarton (Previous incidents: ). Similar edits appear each week, from 120.* IP numbers, attacking me and other contributors for the paranormal articles. Thanks in advance for any action taken. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

obvious, and blocked for a week... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Could someone snow close an AfD please

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thea Gill, thank you in advance! -- Banjeboi 16:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I had it half done, but found some of the closing scripts didn't work from this PC. Was in the middle of manually doing the AfD and got edit-conflicted with someone else. So, tag-team AfD closure. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! -- Banjeboi 16:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that wasn't valid for WP:SPEEDYKEEP, which is why I didn't do it myself. Reclose as snow keep?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

If that one wasn't valid for WP:SK, I think we should re-examine whether the guideline serves any non-disruptive purpose at all. Physchim62 (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Speedy keep is procedural. Snow keep is social. Separating the two is essential to ensuring that temporary social problems don't have an adverse effect on the general running of the project. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

SNOW justifies an early close, which is fine here. Speedy keep has a rigid set of criteria analogous to speedy deletion. Flatscan (talk) 03:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User:192.197.54.136

User:192.197.54.136 has gone through numerous articles, vandalizing pages, starting edit wars, and removing template tags. The user's MO seems very similar to User:JKSarang, who also edits Korean pages, and has gotten into trouble lately for strikingly similar edits. However, I don't know how to check into that. The anon has started edit wars about images on different pages, and when people disagreed, added invalid tags to the image pages to try to get them deleted, which supports my belief that it is the same user. Ωphois 01:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Apparently so did this person Ophois. Who's that? Ophois has committed a 3RR I think that's what PC78 called it. This user has reverted many pages. I would suggest watching this user as well. 192.197.54.136 (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Reverting your vandalism does not count as 3RR. Ωphois 01:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) It's your edits that are the problem here. You've been vandalising pages and have violated 3RR on at least one page.As far as I can see, Ophois has merely been trying to undo some of your damage. PC78 (talk) 01:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It isn't vandalism if I've stated my reason's. And Ophois seems like a stalker, they had nothing to do with this. It's between PC78 and I. Grow up and talk it out like adults instead of running around. 192.197.54.136 (talk) 01:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Repeatedly adding that someone is a "large douche" is vandalism. Ωphois 01:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I never called anyone that I told you guys to grow up. You wanted to talk and I ws talking but you decided to tell on me like a bunch of kids. Very mature of you. 192.197.54.136 (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

And even after being reported, the user continues to remove maintenance tags from articles. Ωphois 01:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Blocked for one week. –Juliancolton |  01:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with how it works, but is there a way to check if it is a possible sockpuppet? Ωphois 01:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's called Checkuser. On a different note, am I the only one who finds this whole discussion to be unintentionally amusing?--66.177.73.86 (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope, good for a Wednesday Night chuckle! Frmatt (talk) 01:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Amen to that! If they ever release a "Best of Misplaced Pages" book, this should definitely be in there. XD --66.177.73.86 (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Would we receive royalties, lol? Ωphois 08:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• Indeed, this IP is so obviously User:JKSarang that I have blocked the user for the same length of time. Black Kite 12:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Fred1296 and Chris Rush

Just trying to head a conflict off at the pass, so to speak. Fred1296 (talk · contribs) seems to be an SPA for promoting comedian Chris Rush. Fred1296 is also probably indef blocked user Tony159 (talk · contribs), who made the same edits to the same articles.

Fred1296 has also added small articles for Rush's book and three albums, the book has already been merged back into the article. Delicious carbuncle has merged/redirected the albums back to the main page for Rush . DC has made comments on Fred1296's page (as have I) to discuss the matter, but Fred1296 has reverted the redirects repeatedly without adding any content, stating in his edit summaries "Good enough for a page" and "As good as anyother page in same category".

I'd hate to see a full-scale edit war break out over something like this, so more opinions on the matter would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dayewalker (talk) 01:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

First of all I am a fan of Chris Rush, and since there wasn't any pages for him I decided to create them. I am however NOT trying to promote him. I am just working with the available information on the web. I do understand why the book was merged into Chris Rush sice it didn't have much for its own page, but to delete the three album pages are ridiculous. There are hundreds of other comedy album pages with the same or even less on it, yet nobody deletes those or merges them into the artist's pages. First Rush, Beaming In and There's No Bones In Ice Cream have plenty of info needed for an encyclopedia stand point. There is obviously some problem these editors have with Chris Rush or even myself considering it seems to be the same ones always trying to delete the pages. When I start to see other pages in the same category being deleted or merged like FM & AM for instance (which is identical to what I created) maybe then I'll be more understandable. Untill then I'm going to fight to keep these pages up and updated too, but when I'm costantly having to undo edits that are made from users who don't believe Chris Rush or any of his works are notable or famous enough it makes it a bit difficult. Thank You Fred1296 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fred1296 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The behavioral evidence seems to indicate that these two accounts are likely the same person, but I would feel more comfortable seeing a checkuser on this one, as the idea that two different fans had created these pages is a slight possibility. --Jayron32 03:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Tony159, which I just started. Lets do this formally to put a nail in this one for good. --Jayron32 03:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Just to note that while FM & AM may be a bit sparse in the references department, it clearly meets the general notability guideline by virtue of having won the 1972 Grammy Award for Best Comedy Album. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

And Mussolini made the trains run on time. That fact does not address the (possible) block dodging issue... --Jayron32 04:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll defer to you in Mussolini-related matters. My point was that none of Chris Rush's albums appear to be notable unlike the example offered by Fred1296 of the George Carlin album FM & AM. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

As you were... Nevermind. --Jayron32 05:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Sko1221 again

User:Sko1221 has been trying to stay logged out and participate in Talk:Medical cannabis and Medical cannabis, but the problems haven't stopped. What we see is the same old disruption: New SPA's keep showing up on a daily basis, and today, as 72.213.22.76 (talk · contribs) she restored the harassment and attempted outing of Alfie66 (talk · contribs), our resident expert and good editor all around. The original off-topic comment was made by User:Ohiostandard,. I previously explained that if he had concerns about Alfie66 or his editing, those concerns should be brought to Alfie's attention on his talk page and/or he should submit a COI incident report on the noticeboard. In my opinion, there are no concerns about Alfie66, as this user has made a concerted effort to discuss his edits before making them, and uses the talk page in a diligent manner. Sko1221/72.213.22.76 is up to the same old tricks, arguing that we should restore off-topic, archived discussions about how cannabis "cures" PMS and cancer and other nonsense that doesn't belong on an article talk page. Thankfully, Mjpresson (talk · contribs) showed up to inject some reason, but I'm afraid it's just a matter of time before the next round of new accounts start up again. Viriditas (talk) 08:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the IP has stopped editing after your warning, and Sko1221 hasn't contributed to those pages for a while. From the contribs and page histories you may be right that there's some inappropriate multiple-account activity going on, but I think filing an WP:SPI might be the easiest way of unpicking it. I don't really see what admin action can be taken at this time; page protection would seem to be premature, and there's not really enough evidence to start dishing out blocks. Speculating about another editor's possible COI is not WP:AGF and certainly doesn't belong on that talk-page, but neither in my view has their post gone so far as to be an attempt at WP:OUTING. I think continuing to remove off-topic conversation, plus an SPI, is probably your best bet at the moment. EyeSerene 20:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I highly prefer this as a forum for your complaints about my editing to harrassment on my talk page, Viriditas. We're all adults here, let's act it! 72.213.22.76 (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Article on Republic of Macedonia: entire text erased

I am not Greek or Macedonian ("Fyromian"?), I live on the other side of the world (Brazil) and have no ancestry or connections with either country, but I visited the article on the Republic of Macedonia just out of curiosity to learn what the current situation of their notorious naming dispute is. I found the page blank, with only the title. Consulting the article's history, I found that user Door34 had deleted the entire page, and even marked the edition summary with a candid "Blanked the page." I reverted the edit, of course, restoring the previous version, but s/he or another Greek (which s/he appears to be - his/her only other listed contributions are edits on the page List of Greek composers) may vandalize the page again.

I am not sure if this is the appropriate page for this, but the specific page for vandalism notifications says it is specifically for ongoing, repeated vandalism, and this appears to be this user's first incident - that is, in that article, because on his/her talk page there are warnings that two pages s/he created were nominated for speedy deletion for blatant advertising; in one of them, s/he removed the speedy deletion tag and got another warning.

Like I said, I am an outsider to the Greek/Macedonian/"Fyromian" dispute, find it hard to understand and just hope that the two nations solve this dispute that to me sounds Shakespearean (a mixture of "what's in a name" with "much ado about nothing") in a civilized way, which certainly does not include turning Misplaced Pages into a battleground. So, I thought I should bring this to your attention. --UrsoBR (talk) 08:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the vandalism. This was just a "normal" vandal edit by someone, of a type that's unfortunately rather common and happens on many articles. Might or might not have been politically motivated. Best response is just what you did: revert it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi, thanks for reverting the blanking of the page, be aware that the edit summary "Blanked page" is an automatic one that is used to help users identify vandalism. In this case, as the user Door34 has vandalised previously, reporting them to WP:AIV would probably have been the best course of action, I have now done this and the user will likely be blocked in some time. Again, thanks for alerting us to this.

On another note, edit summaries such as this: are not entirely appropriate, try to keep the edit summaries of such edits toned down and civil, again, thanks. Kind regards, Spitfire 09:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see where anybody has warned Door34 for their vandalism, nor notified them of this discussion. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The block was a little harsh. No warning, one blanking edit, no previous history of vandalism. Am I missing something? Fribbler (talk) 16:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Fribbler. The editor made one vandal edit, recieved no warning, and was blocked. His only other significant edit has been constructive. This is percisely what {{uw-vandal1}} or {{vandal2}} is for. Singularity42 (talk) 16:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've notifed Toddst1 that his block of Door34 has been raised here. Singularity42 (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You know we probably needed a few more uw-3 and uw-4 warnings to make this disruptive editor feel more welcome before blocking. Toddst1 (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Those were over 2 months ago, and were for removing speedy templates; the knee-jerk reaction of many a newbie. I'm not saying Door34 is in danger of winning "Editor of the year" any time soon, but one more wee (lvl-4) warning might have been useful. Still, 55 hours is hardly hard labour. Fribbler (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I was looking at the contribution list, not the deleted contribution list. My bad. Singularity42 (talk) 17:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Fribbler and 99.166.95.142, Door34 has what appears to be a long history of vandalism, their warnings include a uw-level 1, 3 and 4 as well as three warnings about creating inappropriate pages. One of the inappropriate pages was created after a uw-create4, and then followed up by this page blank. The block was completely justified, Spitfire 20:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

"another Greek (which s/he appears to be - his/her only other listed contributions are edits on the page List of Greek composers) may vandalize the page again".

I believe this thread was started with the best intentions but this kind of comment/guess is uncalled for. Please simply revert or report vandalism acts.

Also, over-zealousness and cold blocks are not always efficient, and as I understand frowned upon. As a side note, people (even most editors) from the two countries get along much better than many think. Antipastor (talk) 01:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Long term multiple account abuse and disruptive editing at UN Watch

There appears to be a case of long term multiple account abuse and disruptive editing at UN Watch (and to a lesser extent Hillel Neuer, the director of UN Watch) The latest account to be created is Fionnuala.Leclerc. The account was created following the Arbitration Enforcement case against Barcelona.women detailed here. It's clearly a sockpuppet. The new account illustrates fairly typical behavior by this person

• Reverting back to previous version by the same user or in this case a previous sockpuppet removing all intermediate edits by other users editing the article no matter how many there were. See diff
• Misleading edit summaries e.g. 'initial description made representative; struck balance between various edits; See Discussion'. In reality the edit involved changing almost everything in the article as you can see in this diff. This kind of edit has occurred repeatedly in the UN Watch article over an extended period.

The edit also illustrates unusual behavior i.e. using the talk page. Whoever is behind these accounts is exceptionally shy when it comes to discussing things on the talk page and collaborating in general. Unfortunately, in this case the talk page entry is entirely misleading and neglects to mention, describe, justify, explain the wholesale changes made to the article involved in reverting it back to the previous sockpuppet's version. Before this latest account I tried adding information about the discretionary sanctions in the hope that it would change behavior. That didn't work. I tried to get the user (as Barcelona.women) to start using talk without success as you can see here. They simply won't engage in discussion. Another user noticed the socking, contacted me here and reported one of the accounts. Based of nature of the edits and the criteria described in Misplaced Pages:Signs of sock puppetry, the accounts listed below may be sockpuppets although the confidence level varies.

• Special:Contributions/Fionnuala.Leclerc
• Special:Contributions/Barcelona.women 0RR imposed from AE
• Special:Contributions/Ibrahim_Abu_Iqsa
• Special:Contributions/Jeanratelle (not so sure about this one)
• Special:Contributions/Unions4globalizing Already blocked (Abusing multiple accounts)
• Special:Contributions/Mahmoud_wintil'adi
• Special:Contributions/Bynoptlegal
• Special:Contributions/Wordsweek11
• Special:Contributions/Mikado_Varshafsky Already blocked

Could an admin investigate and try to put a stop to this once and for all ? Addressing issues on an account by account basis clearly isn't going to work as they will simply create a new account. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll get it out of the way, but everyone will tell you to take it to WP:SPI.--Crossmr (talk) 11:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

..and if I change the title to 'Long term effects of dissociative identity disorder and disruptive editing at UN Watch' and globally replace the word 'sockpuppet' with 'dissociated identities' would that help ? Sean.hoyland - talk 11:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I dunno, "do blocks for excessive sarcasm on an admin noticeboard when the editor has already been advised as to the correct forum to take the issue" end up helping things - globally-speaking, that is?  ;-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think they probably would. Wait, your talking about me. Okay, I'm off to SPI then. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User: Updatehelper

User: Updatehelper is currently replacing mass links from geocities (defunct) to oocities.com, which appears to have archived many geocities sites. i'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Updatehelper Theserialcomma (talk) 12:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Linking to geocities was allowed? :blink: (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, at least this will let us see what the content was long enough to find real replacements for the refs.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly; when I granted Updatehelper AWB, I considered the alternatives, one of which was that these links could be tagged as {{deadlink}}s, and I didn't think that helpful; another would be to tag as {{cn}}, which would risk us losing perfectly valid, if poorly-sourced, information . Obviously it would have been more appropriate for better sources to have been provided from the beginning, but as SarekOfVulcan points out, it gives editors a opportunity to seek more reliable sources. I note that Updatehelper hasn't hadn't actually been notified of this thread, just that there is some concern. Rodhullandemu 17:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've been unable to link to the 'archived' sources. RashersTierney (talk) 17:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

All of them? I know not all Geocities pages have been archived at Oocities, but I would have expected them to be checked. The alternative is to use the Wayback Machine, but for the effort involved, one might as well try to find a more robust and reliable source. However, I've notified Updatehelper and would be interested to hear his modus operandi before condemning him. Rodhullandemu 18:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The first page I checked resulted in a failed link. The page was however archived at Wayback. If the links are changed with AWB, it will make links to this archive less likely. I just have reservations about the overall effectiveness of this approach. RashersTierney (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

hi! please excuse my english as iam from europe. yet im only doing a first run on geocities links. but the final result will be better. However most links i updated work again now and i check most ones. Second Step will be archive.org etc. that way i can easily make 90%+ of all geocities links work again without any disadvantage , but it will take some more weeks. (is there a disadvantage thats worse than deadlinks ?) For now there are only a few percent updated and a lot more are not updated now. i updated about 1000 links. for example webcitation.org-BOT updated about 1500 links also. i also use a "bad-words-filter" as i dont want to feel responsable for some really worse content links working again. please come back to the discussion for any other issues.

please do not write to my personal discussion-page cause that always makes AWB fail

...until then...  --Updatehelper (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, I guess. Good luck. RashersTierney (talk) 18:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Europe too - that's where English originated. Please note, Updatehelper, that personal pages on geocities.co.jp/ appear to be alive and well, so no need to go playing with refs pointing to them. --Yumegusa (talk) 23:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Geocities.co.jp will be going down shortly as well. (Sometime next month.) While it might be a good idea to look at all of the geocities links (to verify their appropriateness), changing links to a live source is better than having to go through the wayback machine, which often has accessibility issues due to bandwidth limitations. Horologium (talk) 23:33, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what Updatehelper has in mind ultimately, but I take his edits to be well-intentioned in preserving what sources we have until better ones can be found. Rather than have a multi-pass algorithm, some bot that categorised these, and pending, pages, would at least centralise efforts to replace these sources. I was intending to move on to articles tagged with {{deadlink}} once I've finished dealing with Category:United Kingdom articles missing geocoordinate data (currently scheduled for February 2010), but I see no reason why the demise of Geocities should not be merged into the latter. Rodhullandemu 00:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone cast light on the copyright issues here? On the face of it, it appears OOcities.com is in gross violation. WP:COPYLINK is fairly explicit, and it appears we should not be linking to OOcities.com from WP.--Yumegusa (talk) 00:40, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

That would depend on the original terms & conditions of Geocities; if content there was copyright-free under GFDL or even CC-BY, there would be no problem with even an ex-post facto mirror. If you want to make this point, please cite reasons. Rodhullandemu 00:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal

Sourced information is removed from Blue water Navy page by newbies. So kindly take note and protect the page.Bcs09 (talk) 13:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Users Mr George R. Allison and By78 are removing content from Guided missile destroyer page under Active and Planned Guided Missile Destroyers as well.Bcs09 (talk) 13:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing to link to re the first complaint. As for the Guided missile destroyer article, the edits on the face of it seem reasonable. Have you attempted to discuss these edits with the contributors? Have you notified them of this discussion? LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The existance of sources is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to include some bit of information in any article. There can be good reasons to not include some bit of information despite the fact that it is written in a reliable source. Source are not a club you wield to force other editors to accept your preferred version of an article; work it out on the article talk page, explain your position as to why the information is relevent and important to the article beyond "someone else wrote it down somewhere", ask them to explain why they think it needs to be removed, invite other editors to comment and achieve consensus as to how to proceed. I have no idea who is in the right in this one particular debate; perhaps the sourced information does belong in the article, perhaps it does not, but sources are not a magic bullet that allows one enforce their preferred version over another's --Jayron32 19:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Request for assistance regarding harassment

In essence, this is a continuation of a prior debate that occurred on this noticeboard. Please see the prior thread.

I have been repeatedly hounded and harassed by User:BQZip01. He has in the past accused me of slander, made a posting on this board demanding I be blocked (see the prior thread), has stalked my edits (case example: restores a fair use image to an article from which I had removed it less than an hour before, an article he had never edited before), has harassed me on my talk page and has now placed a userpage of mine for MfD (see MfD) when his own essay on his MfD standards would allow such a page. I am sick to death of his haranguing of me, and it must stop.

I've been trying to stay out of BQZip01's way. But, I can't. Why? Because he won't let me stay out of his way.

I am here to ask that an administrator please step in to the middle of this (what a thing to volunteer for! :)) and ask that BQZip01 stop stalking my edits, ignore my userspace, and stay off of my talk page unless there is a pressing matter. I, in turn, will do the same with him (though I've not been stalking his edits). If this equitable compromise can not be achieved, this will spin out of control.

Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 14:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've left BQZip01 a note, but could you please provide some more recent diffs? The ones you've posted are from October, and I'd just like to see if the problematic behavior you mentioned is ongoing. Thanks, –Juliancolton |  15:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• It's not everyday that this sort of behavior is happening. It has been happening over a broad span of time, approximately the last year. Whether it happens a hundred times in three days or a hundred times over a year, it's still a problem. I've tried to be patient, but my patience in regards to this user is gone. That's why I'm here. I'm not asking for him to be blocked, censured, or otherwise found to be at fault. All I'm asking for is for him to leave me alone (and me likewise). An outside administrator has considerably more authority in requesting that than I would. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

So there's nothing really new since the last blowout thread you posted from October, and you just want that rehashed again? Tan | 39 15:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• I didn't post that thread Tan, BQZip01 did, asking for me to be blocked. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. Comment struck. Tan | 39 16:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Not commenting on the merits of the case, but the MfD linked above appears to be current (posted less than a day ago). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment/Response Given HS's propinsity to delete images from articles where they are useful and apropos, but lacking in FURs, I have watched his edits. There is nothing wrong with watching his edits IAW Misplaced Pages policy: "Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles." HS apparently feels compelled to remove inappropriately used images (usually copyrighted images without Fair Use Rationales). In these removals, he notes (as in the above diff) "This image use does not comply with WP:NFCC #10c and MUST be removed until it does." Most of the time, I see absolutely nothing wrong with such removals as they are appropriate and would not be appropriate even with a FUR. However, as with too many of his comments about my actions, in this instance HS leaves out details: As requested by HS I provided a FUR and re-added the image explaining that merely removing an image from a page runs contrary to our policies/guidelines. We shouldn't just delete something from an article if a simple correction will fix the problem, in this case adding a Fair Use Rationale.

I have placed a user page of his up for deletion as I believe it to be counter to the goals of Misplaced Pages with regards to Civility (for the reasons discussed on his talk page. I have attempted to discuss issues with him but in accordance with WP:HAMMERSOFTSLAW (part of the page up for deletion), HS has decided that I am not worthy of talking with. Given that he has decided not to discuss matters with me, I am forced to go elsewhere (in this case WP:MfD) to address such problems.

Again, contrary to what HS states, my expressed thoughts on user pages (see link above) do not contradict the nomination. While I agree that pages recording user actions are sometimes neccessary, I believe that such pages need to meet other criteria as well: it must not exclusively an attack page, it must have a limited timeframe, the page must explicitly state the WP:DR process in which it is intended to be used, and it must not be linked elsewhere by its creator. Hammersoft's page fails all of the last three criteria. — BQZip01 —  22:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Mentifisto changes another's signature

This would appear to be subterfuge. Am I missing something obvious here? Is User:Mentifisto someone's legit sock? What's going on here? HarryAlffa (talk) 16:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User notified, per requirements at the top of this page. Tan | 39 16:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The edit summary on that is "done over IRC". What it means is that Mentifisto told me on IRC that there was an ANI thread involving me. When I popped in and saw I hadn't been notified yet, I left a note saying that I had notified myself, and told Mentifisto on IRC that he could fix it if he wanted. He did.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Quite honestly, is this even worth an ANI post?? Ks0stm 17:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that - I WILL remember to notify! HarryAlffa (talk) 17:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The time stamp was changed also - should it have been? HarryAlffa (talk) 17:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters in this case, and the phrase "mountain out of molehill" comes to mind. Ks0stm 17:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not really HarryAlffa's fault for reporting it, if I has seen an edit like that without any information I know I would have balked. I probably would have gone to Mentifisto's talk page first, though. ANI isn't required for every problem, most can be solved peacefully and without the kind of stress that ANI generates. A little insignificant 17:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat? I'm not sure if this qualifies

Please take a look at the most recent post to my talk page. I'm not sure if this attorney is trying to make a legal threat, or just awe me with her awesomeness. It's certainly borderline enough that I'm not going to put a WP:NLT block on her myself. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

That's neither a legal threat, nor is it very awesome. It's just a stupid rant about how Misplaced Pages is a lawless place and administrators can just do whatever they want. --Atlan (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm with Atlan. Now I need to go find some articles to delete. *swirls mustache menacingly* Syrthiss (talk) 18:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a lawless place where administrators pretty much do what they want. I don't see a legal threat. Perhaps an attempt at courteous communication would be helpful. People are human and do get frustrated by the rather impenetrable and often times arbitrary processes we have set up here. If the subject of their article isn't notable, I'm sure the reasoning can be provided, or it can be taken to AfD for wider input, or what have you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

She's trying to create an article about a realtor who's a candidate for local city council, and argues that squibs stating that he has filed for the race make him notable. She also claims to believe that language like, "In his spare time, Hale is an avid family man ... Since making Tampa his permanent home, Hale has become very involved with his community and charitable organizations. ..." is not promotional. There's also a side serving of WP:UPANDCOMING. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment and attempted to explain the situation. If he's a family man, involved in his community, and devoted to charity, I wonder what the heck he's doing getting involved in politics? I thought a squib was the tip of a pen. I'll have to go look what we have on the subject... ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Special:NewPages again...

I've nearly given up. It looks like almost nobody is working on these articles anymore. Can we get a collaboration going or something? And somebody please deal with the recent wave. A little insignificant 18:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I suggested a long while back that people sign up to take specific shifts. If 336 people would take 1/2 hour each week, we'd be assured of covering them all. DGG ( talk ) 19:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've wondered a couple of times why there isn't a new page patrol project, DGG's idea would be easier to implement through that. Although nobody would have an duty to turn up for their shift. But if NPPers put down the times when they are active, it would at least help those with too much time on their hands (i.e. me ) to see when more patrollers are needed - Kingpin (talk) 20:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Newpage patrollers are needed pretty much around the clock. However, you could check WP:HAU for a list of highly active users, and see when the least amount of those are on. (For the record, I believe that most people are on during American East Coast "operating hours", so any hours that might be considered "off-peak" would be optimal.) GlassCobra 20:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

A lot of us who regularly patrolled NP quit outright due to recent events and others are just waiting until the issues at WP:NEWT are resolved before they resume patrolling. Setting up some kind of wikiproject of NPPers and actively recruiting them would probably be a good idea. In my experience, the worst time for NPP is during the times when the Western Hemisphere is asleep. Hoax articles, attack pages and other garbage can roll in at frightening speeds during this time. If you can find folks, especially admins, in other countries who will agree to patrol newpages during these periods, the weekly backlog will shorten considerably. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk)

User:Necrowanderer

Necrowanderer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Could someone please take a look at their userpage, which states that their purpose here is "to provide comic relief.". Their contributions would tend to back up this claim. WuhWuzDat 19:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I encountered this user just before Wuhwuzdat did. My impression is that the user is sincerely interested in reducing drama, but, paradoxically, is doing so in a semi-trollish way. As the person is a new user, some constructive advice may be more useful than anything heavy-handed. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, my job is to provide comic relief. I'm gonna go kick this guys ass. *rolls up shirt sleeves* HalfShadow 19:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Just you try it *also rolls up sleeves and looks for a tuna*. Although if anyone has any experience making page sized tables I would like help with that. One reason for being here is more people post on stuff so I can get faster feed back. I like to experiment with the wiki code but I get frustrated after trying and repeatedly fail to get the proper outcome I want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necrowanderer (talk • contribs) 19:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I just suggested to the user that s/he go improve an article. However, I think I smell a dirty sock. Whose it might be, I have no idea. LadyofShalott 19:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Obvious troll is obvious. Support block. GlassCobra 20:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

71.239.23.70 at Piccolo (Dragon Ball)

71.239.23.70 (talk) came in demanding that Piccolo (Dragon Ball) be renamed to Piccolo Jr.. Despite the fact that several editors informed the IP that "Piccolo" is the name used by the work in which the character is from, the IP continues to insist that it is wrong and that even the original creator is wrong in no using "Piccolo Jr." It's pretty clear by his/her comments, such as this one, as well as several attempts to edit talk page archives that the IP is only here to harass other editors and is not interested in contributing to the improvement of Misplaced Pages, much less this particular article. —Farix (t | c) 21:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Eubulides

I am an admin here at enwp, but I am just a template programmer so I need help with this:

We have problems with Eubulides (talk · contribs). He is trying to do copyright infringement on a massive scale. He wants to unlink all icons here on enwp, for instance in different kinds of message boxes. His reason is to make the boxes more accessible to blind users, so that their image links aren't read out in screen readers. But as you guys probably know we are only allowed to unlink public domain images, since pretty much all other licenses require attribution and require that one can find out what license the image has.

He has single-handedly done massive changes and extensions to the guideline Misplaced Pages:Alternative text for images, and since then used it as a reference for his demands.

When we refuse him to unlink an image in a protected template, he does this:

1. He makes a new very complex version of the template and puts it in the /sandbox sub-page of the template. His code makes the image unlinked, and makes any other images fed to the template also unlinked by default.
2. He changes the documentation of the template to fit with his new code, even though his code has not been deployed. And his documentation tells people to not link images, and usually fails to mention that we are only allowed to unlink public domain images.
3. He repeatedly puts {{editprotected}} on the talk page of the template, no matter how many times different admins have denied the request.
4. He draws a copy of the old image. That is, he paints a new very similar version. And he uploads it to Commons.
5. He sets the license to "public domain", thus not respecting the license of the image he has copied.
6. He adds a description that he made the image entirely by himself. He does not attribute the author(s) of the image he copied.
7. He then comes back to enwp and tries to make people use his new "PD" image as icon, so it can be used without a link.

No matter how much we try to explain to him he shows a total disregard for copyright, attribution and procedures here at enwp and at Commons.

For instance, one case involves the {{portal}} box here at enwp. It is used on over 2.4 million pages. For the discussions, see Template talk:Portal#Remove link from image, for accessibility.

(I have reported his image uploads at commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#User:Eubulides.)

I would appreciate if you guys investigated his edits and do what ever the procedures say you should do with them and with him. I'm sorry that I'm not read up on the procedures regarding this, I was just made an admin here at enwp since I handle high-risk templates. (The templates I code tend to become very popular, so they get protected.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Continual re-creation of deleted article about 'Team Touchdown'

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to put this - if it's not, I apologise.

A group of editors have been trying to re-create the same article, all about a non-notable group/club in NSW, Wales.

The deletion log entries are as follows:

• 13:18, 16 November 2009 Redvers (talk | contribs) deleted "Team touchdown" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
• 10:24, 17 November 2009 JohnCD (talk | contribs) deleted "Team touchdown" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
• 10:40, 18 November 2009 User:Peripitus (talk | contribs) deleted "Team touchdown" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Team touchdown)
• 05:17, 19 November 2009 User:Acroterion (talk | contribs) deleted "Team-touchdown" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
• 05:44, 19 November 2009 User:Amorymeltzer (talk | contribs) deleted "Team touchdown FC" ‎ (A3: Article that has no meaningful, substantive content)
• 07:27, 19 November 2009 User:Gogo Dodo (talk | contribs) deleted "Team touchdown FC" ‎ (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
• 07:28, 19 November 2009 User:Gogo Dodo (talk | contribs) deleted "Team-touchdown" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
• 19:36, 19 November 2009 User:Kinu (talk | contribs) deleted "Team / Touchdown" ‎ (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)

The editors involved include:

• Deanops (talk, contribs)

• Blocked: 09:26, 19 November 2009 DMacks (talk | contribs) blocked Deanops (talk, contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (Disruptive editing)

• Special Operations (talk, contribs)
• Horse M (talk, contribs)

One of the variations is already protected from creation:

• (Protection log); 10:41 Peripitus (talk | contribs) protected Team touchdown (expires 10:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)) (repeated recreation)

Is it possible to SALT using a regexp?
Something like T*

I doubt that they are going to stop trying to recreate the article, as they have been so persistent so far!

Regards, -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 22:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• This ] too for a little background. Users were editing a disambiguation page and adding their soccer club info repeatedly.. - 4twenty42o (talk) 22:16, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
• Note All three of the above editors have been notified of this thread, included the one who is currently blocked -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 22:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I had nuked another variant (same regex):

• 09:25, 19 November 2009 DMacks (talk | contribs) deleted "Team Touchdown FC" ‎ (recreation of unreferenced article about non-notable subject that has previously been deleted after AfD)
• 09:06, 19 November 2009 DMacks (talk | contribs) deleted "Team Touchdown FC" ‎ (G4: Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Team touchdown)

Their repeated recreation after salting of previous spelling (after *its* AfD and then recreation) and associated cloning at Touchdown Jesus is what led me to block Deanops. DMacks (talk) 22:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• • Further to 4twenty42o's link, 2 more editors need to be added to the list:

• Feelin' Fine (talk, contribs)
• 144.131.87.72 (talk, contribs)

• I have left ANI notices on both of these editor's talk pages -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 22:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• (E/C) PimpdaddyMcPhee (talk · contribs) (blocked), Insertnamehere10 (talk · contribs), 124.149.98.97 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 121.218.220.162 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) are also involved in this fiasco. Horologium (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I have left messages on the talk pages of all except the first, which was indeffed. Horologium (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• There is also Team Touchdown, which I have deleted and salted, from user Team Touchdown (talk · contribs), for whom I planned a username block if he tried it again; he has had the article on his userpage. See also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Team touchdown. I think we just continue to delete, salt, and block: they are under-14s, they'll get bored in a day or two. JohnCD (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: I have filed a SPI case on the involved parties included from this thread. MajorMinorMark (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how much good that will do; I suspect these are meatpuppets, not socks. IIRC, Team Touchdown is a made-up football group; this is probably a bunch of guys trying to get their little club on WP. GlassCobra 23:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• Another oddity: Insertnamehere10 (talk · contribs) was created by Horse96 (talk · contribs), an account with no edits. Horse96's only activity was creating Insertnamehere10, four minutes after creating the original account. The similarity of the name to Horse M (talk · contribs) caught my eye, as did the similarity of Special Operations (talk · contribs) and Deanops (talk · contribs). Horologium (talk) 23:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Millsy360 (talk · contribs) vandalised my talk page 3 times in quick succession: 01:46, 01:49 and 01:54. In between the last two, another editor came out of nowhere (only made one edit since creatign account): Bam.bam0406 (talk · contribs) 01:52. Bam.bam0406 has made no other edits, but I'm guessing it's another sock - the co-incidence is too high! MajorMinorMark, do you want to add those two to the SPI? -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 02:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

• One more sock User talk:Millsy360 just found that one on the touchdown jesus article posting the same club crap on a disambig page ] and vandalizing a user page ]. - 4twenty42o (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

• Semi-protected Touchdown Jesus for a day, to prevent the socks from continuing there. JamieS93 02:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Texasguard

I came across this user page as the author was testing several edits on the Texas National Guard article. From the account's user talk page I got the impression that this account is intended to be used by several people (web staff) of an organization, so I think this is a violation of rules like "no password sharing" and WP:username. Also, conflicts of interest are bound to occur here. De728631 (talk) 22:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right, appears to be a violation of WP:ORGNAME. ♠The Ace of Spades♥_♦ 22:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Warned for COI. ♠The Ace of Spades♥_♦ 22:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

What the hell is a "Disclaimer" section of the article they are obviously copying from somewhere? DMacks (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

No idea, but I reverted the article to a former, neutral version. De728631 (talk) 22:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I have pointed out the relevant parts of WP:USERNAME, along with a link to WP:CHU -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 23:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, a name change would just make them harder to pinpoint. The account should have been blocked right away as a violation of the two policies pointed out already. This account is obviously intended to be used by multiple people, to only edit articles that they have a vested interest in, to give the appearance that they are somehow "sanctioned" or approved by the organization, and is thus totally inappropriate. GlassCobra 00:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

BLP edit warring and block

Firefly322 (talk · contribs) and William S. Saturn (talk · contribs) have been edit warring at User_talk:Firefly322 and Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2009_November_9 over BLP-violating comments, specifically and . Firefly322 has been blocked for 55 hours by PeterSymonds, but continues to restore the comments to his talkpage. William S. Saturn has passed 3RR on the RfD page, as well. Some more attention here would be appreciated. Nathan 23:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I have asked specifically what the BLP issue is, on the RFD talk page. This should not have reached this level. --William S. Saturn (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You should almost never restore comments deleted for BLP reasons without first discussing the issue. The fact that these comments violate BLP should be easy for anyone familiar with the policy to discern, and edit-warring over them past 3RR is unreasonable by any measure. Nathan 23:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I apologize. If I passed 3RR it was unintentional and will accept the consequences. --William S. Saturn (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive - so if your comment means that you will not revert any more, then we're done and no block is warranted. MastCell  00:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

If you're incapable of understanding what the problem is with edits such as then Misplaced Pages might possibly be the wrong place for you. Firefly322 was lucky to escape with 55 hours IMO - I would have blocked indefinitely until he could state that he understood the problem and would not repeat it. Black Kite 23:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Will, I have to agree with Black Kite on this one. How is it appropriate to discuss living people in that manner on Misplaced Pages? Certainly Orangemike and others get away with doing it about conservatives like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh who they don't like, and I know we're talking about a mass murderer and not a political commentator in this instance, but it still isn't proper. Once it was objected to I think you should have let it be. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see anything in WP:BLP that specifically covers edits like the above "71" diff. There's a difference between making concrete claims such as "John Doe killed his children" with no links to prove it and saying "John Doe is a very evil person" or "John Doe is a very evil person because he did X" where X is something very clearly true. I think we have become too strict if it is no longer acceptable to make moral judgments about a living person on one's own talk page that are based on verifiable truths about that person. I also don't see where such a thing is covered in the current BLP policy. It doesn't seem to meet the legal definition of defamation, for example, which is given in the first paragraph of the article. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 00:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine the circumstances under which comparing someone to Hitler and NAMBLA, and calling them an Islamic extremist, is acceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages. That it comes on a user talk page (and, in this case, an RfD) makes no difference - the BLP policy applies there as anywhere. Nathan 00:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Not the point, really. "John Doe is a very evil person" regardless of context is clearly an opinion and thus original research. We're not here to make moral judgements about people, we're here to write an encyclopedia. The fact it's on a non-articlespace page is irrelevant here. Black Kite 00:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The post did far more than assert that someone was "evil". Misplaced Pages's site mission does not include testing the limits on the legal definition of defamation. We're a nonprofit encyclopedia, and it would really be better if individuals who wished to test the acceptability of this statement did so at their own personal website. Durova 00:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no comment on the comment made about Hitler on the user's talk page. However, I feel the edit on the RFD was not a BLP violation. --William S. Saturn (talk) 00:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

• First, it strikes me that blocking was no necessary -- this IMHO could have been handled with discussion or other less punitive measures, which should have been pursued first. Second, it does appear to me that there is not a consensus at the RfD, nor should an involved party close a contested RfD IMHO. Third, as to Nathan's suggestion that he "can't imagine the circumstances under which comparing someone to Hitler and NAMBLA, and calling them an Islamic extremist, is acceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages," I think that may perhaps be just a bit of an overstatement. I certainly can. Himmler, Goering, Idi Amin, Bin Laden, Attila the Hun, Ayatollah Khomeini, Leopold II of Belgium, Pol Pot, and Vlad Ţepeş might all vie for that honor for starters. And certainly there is something different in one making edits expressing their view (as here) than stating a fact as true, as in an article edit, though I would agree that BLP violations (which come in different flavors) should be looked at carefully.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Which of those is a pedophile, a brutal tyrant and an Islamic extremist? Nathan 00:53, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Now you're stretching what the original statements in dispute actually said. I think the bottom line is that we should try to conduct ourselves in a professional and dispassionate manner. Since we are writing the articles on living people, it's important that we refrain, generally speaking, from disparaging them. I acknowledge the points made though that discussion shouldn't be stifled by tossing around BLP accusations too freely, but when NAMBLA and Hitler are getting worked in I think the envelope is being pushed too far. We should strive to focus on article content work and collegial discussion rather than engaging in discussion regarding our personal opinions of whether article subjects are evil, or just very very confused. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Black Kite's deletion

I feel it was highly inappropriate for Black Kite, as an involved party, to close the RFD. I hope someone will revert this action and let the RFD run its course since discussion is ongoing. At the moment it appears to be No Consensus. --William S. Saturn (talk) 00:32, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Hardly. It was the ANI thread which actually led me to the RfD, which had been open for ten days - and an ANI comment about general conduct which was mostly unrelated to the RfD doesn't mean I am "involved" in it. Very few of the "Keep" rationales were convincing, IMO. Black Kite 00:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I've read through most of the discussion, and in the end I agree with Black Kite's closure. There was an opinion split among established editors, but the consensus to delete is fairly apparent based on the arguments presented. To be frank, Saturn, how is an outsider going to trust your word that there "appears to be no consensus" when you were so heavily involved in the discussion, replying to nearly everyone who supported deletion? JamieS93 00:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

It's a poor close based on an opinion rather than a proper reading of the discussion by an admin who is involved in related discussions. But I think it would have to go to DRV now? Hopefully Black Kite will exercise better judgment in future. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

What Child said. Perhaps BK can revise it?--Epeefleche (talk) 01:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't hold your breath. I think it's time to move on. I don't think a bad close requires admin intervention, so that probably needs to be pursued elsewhere. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Please explain how commenting on an ANI discussion makes you involved in something. By your logic, if someone asks for a checkuser to be run on some accounts, and I run the check and post the results, it would be inappropriate for me to block the accounts myself, since I'm "involved".

Ludicrous. J.delanoy_adds 01:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted the close. Black Kite articulated a reason not advanced by any other participant, but that's a DRV reason. What makes him an involved admin is his intense dislike of me. For examples, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive203#Proposal:_.22Cry_BLP.22_blocks or peruse the archives of Talk:Rachel Corrie. If some other administrator would like to re-close the RfD, feel free. Black Kite is ineligible to do so, and should have known better. Jclemens (talk) 02:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Strange edits at Shaquille O'Neal and "Shaw"-related pages

There has been some very bizarre vandalism occurring at Shaquille O'Neal and its talk page, in which a group of users is insisting that O'Neal's nickname is "Shaw", and not "Shaq". , . This has spilled over into numerous articles with "Shaw" in their titles, such as Shaw , Shaw (name), , Shaw, Mississippi, , Archbishop Shaw High School, , and Shaw's Crab House . There are too many accounts involved to list at WP:AIV, and semi-protection won't solve everything, as some of these accounts have been here a while. If someone wants to back me up in my vandal-fighting, or offer some tips for how to deal with it, I'd be very appreciative. Zagalejo^^^ 01:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

That's really strange. I protected Talk:Shaquille O'Neal for a few hours, and blocked the users I could see doing this. If you want to send me a list of accounts/IPs on my user talk page, I'll be happy to block them for you. NW (Talk) 01:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it time to indefinitely block User:Ott jeff yet?

His account exists only to promote MonaVie, which I'm 100% sure he's an employee of. He's been warned, he's gotten one short-term block for edit-warring, and he's recently created MonaVie Active as a content fork since he's realized that he isn't going to be able to turn MonaVie into an advertisement. I'm so tired of him, and so annoyed with him, that I'd prefer not to block him myself. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse block as outlined by FisherQueen. Crafty (talk) 01:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse Neutrality is one of our core goals, if someone is only here to push a specific point of view then that is not acceptable. 01:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

After reviewing his edits and block log, I've enacted the indefinite block. PeterSymonds (talk) 01:59, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, he doesn't get to defend himself and you don't even have to post warnings and diffs? Oh, well, new user, that's how it goes here at AN/I. One complaint and BAM! IndefBlock. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 02:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

He is not a newbie; he has been here for a month. He has been warned, although he has removed those warnings from his talk page. In fact, he's been blocked twice for shorter periods of time for the same things. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You admit the block is retaliatory: you're tired of him. I think one month is not long enough to be considered an established user on wikipedia! I don't see any diffs that you've posted about his prior blockings. Just how tired you are of him. And quickly, 10 minutes later, he's blocked. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 02:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

This is the administrators' noticeboards; I know that my fellow admins know how to look at his edit history for the diffs of his edits, and to his block history for his prior blocks. We've allowed him to advertise his company for a month, which I think is very generous of us. Tell you what- I'll be glad to support an unblock if he agrees not to edit on the subject of MonaVie or Acai in the future. I doubt he'll be interested in the offer, but I could be wrong. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. I suspect you're right that he will not take you up on the offer, but there's no loss for trying. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 02:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) to IP: A little AGF on your part would be nice too. I have noticed this user before, and he has ignored every warning offered to him. I reviewed his contributions in full before I enacted the block, and I did so because it looked quite clear he had no intention of changing his behaviour. PeterSymonds (talk) 02:14, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Notice also the context of your quote. I didn't say, "I'm tired of him, so someone block him." I can block him myself. I said, "I'm tired of him, so I don't want to be unfair. Someone else who is less annoyed look and see if you agree he should be blocked." -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You blocked him with one request and the input of two other admins after 10 minutes. That's fast! Give other users some time to post input, give the user time to respond, anything that shows I should AGF, and I'll be glad to. Misplaced Pages administrators don't look too closely when it comes to supporting a fellow administrator. I would have liked to be able to assume good faith by a balanced and fair discussion of the problems, rather than a rush to block. However, I accept your proposal above. Let's try it. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 02:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

IP, can you find any GF edits? Pop the diffs here -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 02:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

(side comment) Since when do admins leap to support each other? This page is basically a long catalog of admins bitching at each other. And the archive goes on and on and on... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

When it comes to blocking or attacking a relatively new editor (case in point). Other than that, yes, it's pretty much a cesspool of absurdity intermingled with long blocks about the drama-magnets. Back on topic, let's just try once more reasoning and call it a done deal whichever way the editor chooses to respond to the offer.--IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 02:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Why feed IP? He comes in here screaming about how the block is bad without having done any research at all into the problem. He has a right do do that, I suppose; we all have a right to ignore him. Endorse indefblock, closing thread. Tan | 39 02:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

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