Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:41, 23 November 2009

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

If I left a message on your talk page, then I will be watching it for a while. So you can simply reply there, and the discussion will be in one place. Similarly, when an experienced editor comments here I will usually respond here. I do not use "talkback" templates, and it rarely if ever makes sense to leave me such templates.

Ottava "identity"

At no point did he say that he was Essjay. Provide a diff, or strike it out. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I asked him: "I put it to you that you are not a scholar. You are obviously not capable of reasoned debate. Please answer this direct question: Are you Essjay?" To which he replied: "Yes, you first had a problem with me and have been following me ever since. And you can claim that I am not a scholar all you want. However, my real name is known and easy to find."

I wouldn't have minded him returning (the previous incarnation was before my time here), but if he insists on resuming his habit of pushing his opinion with reference to false credentials, then it's an obvious problem:

• Trying to push Derrida into Linguistics by bullying the experts.
• Threatening to call another editor's university.

(By the way, when I researched this I realised that I had a short interaction with Ottava in April at Talk:Linguistics, after the diffs that I provided.) Hans Adler 21:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not see that "yes" as being a response to "Are you Essjay", and suggest you try to see it as an interjection instead of a response.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

It ought to be quite clear to you that Ottava was replying "yes" to a different question, not to "Are you Essjay?" It is rather concerning that you are pusuing your misconception this way in the face of all reason. I know who Ottava is, and he is most certainly not Essjay. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately I do not know this. He is making wild claims about Knights of Columbus, ethics blogs and PhDs in progress. Do you believe him that he is an expert on ethics, of all topics, given his unethical conduct here? Doesn't this remind you of Essjay's motto Lux et Veritas? I am not talking about the Chillum nonsense. I am talking about his POV pushing, which doesn't even stop when he is dealing with a bunch of professionals. Hans Adler 22:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for striking.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for asking nicely. Hans Adler 22:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I've got no idea whether Ottava is an expert in ethics or not, or even what an expert in ethics would be. All I'm saying is that Essjay and Ottava are not the same person. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Funnily enough, Ottava has a tendency to accuse other users of being Essjay. He did this when he harassed John Kenney and threatened to phone up his university for daring to disagree with him back in August. It led to another ANI thread in which, predictably, no action was taken against him . Read the whole thing, it's eerily familiar. --Folantin (talk) 22:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that was actually one of the reasons that put me on this possible connection. Many sockpuppets of banned users behave in such a way. Given Ottava's apparent level of social intelligence it makes perfect sense to suspect him of thinking that this protects him from people making the connection, when the reverse is true. Hans Adler 22:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think he is Essjay. He claims to be some sort of English student although he makes some very basic errors. He was most insistent Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur was a work of Renaissance poetry (sic). His comments on Iranian history include some of the weirdest claims I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages. --Folantin (talk) 22:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Malory poetry? Then it's even worse than I thought. I would say I have it on my shelf, only it's not true because I just moved and it's still in self-storage somewhere. (And I am just a German mathematician.) Do you have a diff for this nonsense?

Oh, and is there a list of "his" articles? Perhaps there is one that I know enough about to do some basic fact checking. Since it seems to be consensus that he can get away with almost everything because of his articles, I would like to make sure that they are worth it and don't contain too much OR. Hans Adler 22:33, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Watch out. You will simply be added to the list of "conspirators" against him, the membership of which changes every week. --Folantin (talk) 22:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Folantin: Do you think it's seemly to be discussing another editor in that way?

Hans: you could start by looking at Samuel Johnson, an article I worked on with Ottava. It's a big subject, shouldn't be too difficult to check up on. Nicolo Giraud comes to mind as well, as a rather more niche topic. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. Samuel Johnson would just about interest me enough, but I am really looking for something where he worked without effective peer review. I guess the profile of this article is too high for that. Nicolo Giraud looks as if it would fit better, but I wouldn't keep myself awake when researching this. I definitely don't want to know more about this topic than I just learned from a quick glance at the article. Hans Adler 22:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Though I can more or less see why you were suspicious about similarities between Ottava and Essjay (both tend to grandstand somewhat), I have received personal email from Ottava that can be tied to an identity that is very clearly not Essjay's, and that confirms much of what he says about his occupation and qualifications. Again, while I just about understand your mistake, it's time to admit it was a mistake and, I'd suggest, apologize to Ottava. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:24, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but for that the situation is simply not clear enough. It doesn't seem likely that Essjay has not returned to Misplaced Pages, and if he has, he likely has built a false identity outside Misplaced Pages or hijacked an existing one. For example it's often not too hard to get email addresses or webspace from smaller institutions that you can then use to pretend you are affiliated to them. Or you can simply register a domain that looks as if it was an alternative domain for an existing institution. Or you just make up your own institution. I know what I am talking about; I once initiated a harmless prank where we kept the website for a fake polytechnical university (in a town that doesn't have one) running for several years. It took only a few days to set this up.

Therefore I am not going to accept any proof for a specific RL identity of Ottava that I haven't verified myself. But I don't have the necessary information and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to ask for it. Hans Adler 23:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hans, this is futile conspiracy-theorizing. I have seen more than enough evidence otherwise. Believe me, and if only in the spirit of good faith, apologize to Ottava. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:24, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Or even better, in the spirit of not getting an NPA block. ;-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

In the spirit of taking home the necessary lessons from the Essjay affair I am not going to apologise before I have been convinced he is not Essjay. And in that case the extent of my apology would depend on whether he can convince me that the claims he made here about his qualifications are true. I was going to say more about the gap between what qualifications Ottama habitually implies and what I am quite sure he said to a friend recently, but I can't find the diff right now and must leave my computer. Will finish later today.

Of course stopping to push the accusation is an entirely different matter. In anycase I would appreciate an unequivocal statement by OR that he is not Essjay. I don't think that's too much to ask for after the way he pressured Chillum to get an answer out of him. Hans Adler 07:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Watch your back, Hans. He's probably forum-shopping on IRC about you. He does a lot of schmoozing on the back channels which is why his buddies will always turn up to defend him. Check out this conversation :

• "You could just email me via Wiki or go on IRC if you want to know my real name. :P Ottava Rima (talk) 03:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)"

• You are free to send me an email. My home page is linked from the 3rd paragraph of my user page, and it has my email address. Hans Adler 22:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• "Between Ottava, Malleus, and a certain RFA, I bet IRC is hot tonight! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)" I'll bet it is. --Folantin (talk) 08:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(outdent:) Folantin, I hardly see that comment as helpful. Hans, I do think you're pushing the civility envelope here. And in my mind, at least, the lesson of the Essjay affair is that people should attend to the actual edits that other editors make, rather than to their grandstanding about credentials. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not just the actual edits. In areas infected by nationalism or pseudoscience, contributions to the talk page are often much more relevant. And precisely the same situation occurs wherever Ottava decides that another editor is his enemy. He has the subtlety and rhetorical finesse of a fighting dog. I think I am particularly resistant to bullying, but on Talk:The Awful German Language he succeeded because I politely withdrew when I realised that he didn't shrink from disrupting Durova's DYK project.

Note how he authoritatively made the ludicrous claim that I was not allowed to fix an obvious typo or OCR error in the Gutenberg edition of a Twain text unless I found a first edition. At least he made the necessary correction himself – 2 1/2 months after the article had appeared on the main page. (I mentioned this incident before on OR's talk page, but Jehochman deleted it there for unrelated reasons. In the meantime I found about one very limited previous interaction between us, on Talk:Linguistics. But I am sure there was no provocation for the boundless hostility that I faced.)

Other people may let themselves be bullied for different reasons, such as: (1) The article not being sufficiently important to get a heart attack for. (2) Being "just" a postdoc in literature with a real name account while Ottava talks as if he were a bossy and senile full professur who might well go out of his way to ruin a young colleague's career. (3) Not being sure about the precise bounds of Ottava's apparent craziness.

This is a bit off-topic, but: Ottava needs to get the message that his behaviour here is actually illegal. (In Great Britain under section 21 of the SSA; presumably other jurisdictions have similar laws.) I am paying my Misplaced Pages membership fees for reasoned arguments, not for abuse or contradiction. Hans Adler 22:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Again, I have no problem with Ottava's edits being criticized, whether they take place on articles or on talk pages. You are far from alone in criticizing him. But I repeat that to suggest that he is forging his identity, and specifically that he is the return of probably the encyclopedia's single most controversial editor, is unhelpful at the very best. (NB I'm not sure what you mean about Misplaced Pages membership fees.) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

If you are unsure about the height of the membership fees (aren't you paying them? I didn't know that admins are exempt) then you clearly haven't followed the link. Hans Adler 06:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I've referred to him using Misplaced Pages as a free Pythonesque argument clinic myself. I'm 99.9% positive he isn't Essjay so I wouldn't bother continuing with that line of inquiry as it's only likely to get you into trouble with people who would otherwise be sympathetic to your complaints about him. Anyway, Ottava has left the building so there is no longer any need for this "drama". Somehow I have a feeling it won't last... --Folantin (talk) 09:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I have watched IRC for a few hours recently (quite unusual for me – I think I am, and have always been, too old for that sort of thing), and based on what I have seen there I am not afraid of him conspiring against me there, or anything like that. I must say that while I saw him bragging a lot there and making some unlikely claims about himself, his on-wiki presence wouldn't be a big problem if he presented himself in a similar way here. Perhaps part of the division between the pro- and anti-OR camps can be explained by the division between those who judge him by his behaviour on Misplaced Pages only and those who judge him by his behaviour on Misplaced Pages + IRC. Judging from his wiki behaviour only he would most likely be a senile teacher at some university who never got tenure. There is almost no indication otherwise. Whether intentional or not, the effect is deception. But things are radically different once you see that he talks freely about his age and other aspects of his life on IRC.

On the other hand, I think my IRC observations confirm my previous impression that I have not talked about yet: He is unable to distinguish between his opinion and truth, between what he has said and what his opponent has acknowledged, between what would fit his argument and what is plausible. I am not sure whether he will ever be able to learn to make this distinction. I think I am also seeing clear signs of confirmation bias, irrational escalation, reactance, wishful thinking, false consensus effect, illusion of transparency, ultimate attribution error beyond the ordinary degree to which we all have them, and with no moderation. For example he seemed to be absolutely convinced that Arbcom is going to exonerate him and punish his opponents. As a result I find it very hard to take this claim seriously (now followed by ). Many of the arbitrators and a few dozen admins know something, including Lar? More likely than not it just means that Ottava made unlikely or obviously false claims by email to these people and not all of them responded "no, you are wrong" often enough or clearly enough. Hans Adler 12:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

"More likely than not it just means that Ottava made unlikely or obviously false claims by email to these people and not all of them responded 'no, you are wrong' often enough or clearly enough." That's probably spot on. If the ArbCom goes ahead I'll call him out on his paranoid fantasies. These accusations are usually ad hoc and the membership of the alleged cabal against him varies widely. One of his charges in that "incomprehensible mess" is particularly ludicrous and hypocritical. I had been trying to avoid this guy since his failed RFA in April. I spent a lot of my summer editing on Misplaced Pages revising Iranian history articles. As part of this project, I accidentally edited a page on his watchlist ("18th century") which contained a ropey claim about the Safavid dynasty ending in 1722 rather than 1736. He went ballistic and followed me to Talk:Persian Empire where the very first edit he made called for me to be banned for disruption. He has shown the most abysmal ignorance about the most obvious facts of Iranian history (documented here) yet he made 250 or so edits to the article talk page, many calling for me or others to be banned. This went on for two months in which he tried to get my alleged "cabal of five" banned on ANI and filed an ArbCom case against "us" and others (the ANI "gang of five" being users with long histories of editing Iranian topics). The ANI thread culminated in a bizarre rant which climaxed thus : "no one, not one person, has had the guts to defend this Misplaced Pages by blocking five vandals that are dead set on destroying this place and making it known that Misplaced Pages is not a place for games, not a place to push some wacko POV, not some whore to be treated like shit." Well, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Now I learn this is all apparently part of a vendetta against him because User:Geogre was desysopped in July (or something) in some case I was barely aware of. And he has the temerity to go bitching and whining about the months of "hell" he has suffered in a cheap bid for sympathy. I ask you. --Folantin (talk) 13:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

May I ask what this discussion is intended to accomplish? Ottava Rima has quasi-retired; nearly everyone who retires from a website during a dispute does read its pages afterward. This is one reason why such retirements are seldom permanent: provocative reactions tempt them to return. If you dislike him then the wisest course of action is to make his departure a nonissue--unless you actually want a resumption of the conflict. Uninvolved observers watch the behavior of all parties and the appearance of grave dancing is distasteful. We're all human beings here. If you really believe his scholarship was lacking then by all means take a page and quietly raise it to FA on your own. People respect that kind of thing, and it serves the project's best interests. Durova 17:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what this discussion has to do with Ottava's "quasi-retirement" and I find it very hard to understand what you are trying to say.

I don't want Ottava to leave this project. I want him to become a more stable man and a more effective editor. And popular. We on this wiki can't fix his private life for him (there seems to be a correlation with his block log), but we can try to help him understand that he must change his behaviour. If and when that fails we can still think about getting rid of him.

Last night on IRC Ottava sounded as if he still thought that he would get his big day in court and then Arbcom would ban all his enemies indefinitely because they were harassing him for no good reason at all. He seems to think he is completely innocent, and even if he were not, the supposedly high quality of his articles would make him immune anyway.

And what does he do now, that he can no longer pretend that almost everybody thinks he is right? He vanishes, apparently in order to wait for better weather. It doesn't work like that in real life. If you are about to lose your job because you turn the workplace into a battle zone you don't have the option to take your annual leave, and then return and resume your behaviour when everybody is focusing on something else.

Apparently the situation got so hot that he could no longer deceive himself, and now he has gone into hiding. OK. But de mortui nil nisi bene applies to the dead, not to fugitives. If you want Arbcom to stop the case that Ottava has opened against himself, you will have to ask them, but I would be surprised if they allow themselves to be gamed so easily. If you want to make me stop talking about this ongoing and very necessary case, then my answer is no. I still haven't sorted out my thoughts about Ottava. At some point I may want to make a statement, but only if I think it's necessary to introduce or strengthen an important aspect.

PS: I find the suggestion that I take one of Ottava's subjects to FA quality (that seems to be implied since you are not making sense otherwise) quite revolting. And I am certainly not going to waste my time and motivation on pressing such an ultra-boring subject through the inefficient FA process. Hans Adler 18:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

PPS: In case you missed it, Ottava made very strong accusations against a large number of editors. Surely the best way to honour the memory of a semi-retired editor is by actually evaluating them. Do you think he would have wanted to simply forget about them now he is gone? No, we need to find out whether he was right; that's approximately where we were in the discussion when you interrupted. Hans Adler 18:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Haven't missed it, and haven't agreed with all of it either. Did you notice my posts to RFAR? Nonetheless, this is a volunteer project--not an actual job. Even if his content work isn't perfect (whose is?), he's a prolific contributor of FAs and GAs on encyclopedic subjects. I wish he were better with people. Onsite speculation about his stability isn't likely to improve the situation. A little breathing room on all sides might be a good thing. Respectfully, Durova 18:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Vikos-Aoos National Park

Sure, the area is a real treasure. When I've started reading all the relevant bibliography and editing in the article, I've thought this should became something real good. But nothing compares the park itself. Thanks for the comment. I believe that it can be further upgraded since bibliography and scientific projects on this topic are very detailed.Alexikoua (talk) 08:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it should really become a featured article. I may be able to help a bit, but I don't actually know much about it and I can't read Greek. Hans Adler 09:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The bibliography I used is english speaking, primarily based on this work. I plan to create in the next weeks the German version of v-a. Cheers!Alexikoua (talk) 09:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Northern Ireland

As someone who agreed with your line on the article wording, rather than Snowded's, I'd also urge you to withdraw your contentious statement, which is unhelpful and the last thing that is needed in such a sensitive area of debate. Feel free to delete this message if you like. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. I am taking it seriously. Hans Adler 22:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

SPI Report

Hi Hans. I am just getting in and catching up with the various developments; I thought I would have a chance to revisit it all during the day, but unfortunately real-life concerns took precedence. However, in the SPI case you filed, the IP should be 68.36.205.151 rather than 68.35.205.151, 36 rather than 35 in the second octet of the IP. Thanks :) FlowerpotmaN·(t) 20:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, I fixed it. Hans Adler 21:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Aww40

Hi, if you want to unblock them I'm fine with it, I was erring on the side of safety given that the sources were dubious and the material was potentially defamatory. As I said on the user's page, a promise to discuss rather than revert would've been enough for me to unblock anyway. Black Kite 14:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I would never do something as uncontroversial as a non-admin unblock! ;-) Actually I think it's not a good idea to unblock them before they have found out how we do discussions at Misplaced Pages. Remember that talk pages are a bit counterintuitive when you first encounter them. I will leave a message on their talk page, encouraging them to ask for an unblock.

(BTW, I agree that the sources were not reliable for this kind of information. But I wouldn't call them dubious, either. After all, a self-published source by two full professors plus an assistant professor, published on the department server, would be sufficient for some purposes, just not this one. No question that the material was potentially defamatory.) --Hans Adler 15:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

re Markup at ANI

A submission to Signpost "opinion" request: User:Proofreader77/Two Misplaced Pages opinion sonnets linked by "civility"

Read the one on the left. (Thanks for reminding me:) Proofreader77 (talk) 14:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Your "sonnet" makes no sense and I can see no connection to what I told you other than that it also abuses markup. Hans Adler 14:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Internet Defence Force

A disruptive IP has been plaguing the talk page of Jewish Internet Defence Force. I would be interested as to why you reverted to an edit that replaced a descriptive title ("Islamophobic material") with vandalism such as "TALK PAGE GUIDELINES/NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH". Factsontheground (talk) 14:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Because you also removed the IP's comment, which in itself didn't look disruptive to me. The IP is not supposed to remove yours, and you are not supposed to remove theirs, as I hinted in the edit summary. If you really think that the IP's comment is so objectionable that it must be removed, you should ask an uninvolved admin to do it. Otherwise there is just going to be an edit war on the talk page.

By the way, both titles are descriptive of your respective concerns, neither title is NPOV. Hans Adler 14:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Categories

I an thinking of moving all these to Category:Model theory: algebraic definition, algebraic sentence, algebraic theory, elementary definition, elementary theory, elementary sentence. Is there a better category for them? I feel like there should be a better way to handle these but I can't put my finger on it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure that we need these in the first place. I am not familiar with the first three terms, and I would like to see a reference for their use. In any case they should be merged.

The last three are basically just using "elementary" as a synonym for "first order". While this usage is of course related to usage in model theory (most notably elementary equivalence, it's not very common there. The reference given suggests a context of topos theory, and it does fit equally well to the notion of an elementary topos. It may be best to redirect the last three to some topos theoretical article; otherwise they should at least be merged.

I will think about this a bit more, and try to deal with them, if you don't mind. Hans Adler 06:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

No, of course, I don't mind. I ran into these only by looking through Category:Mathematical logic. The term algebraic theory sounds like something from universal algebra to me (a theory with a universal equational axiomatization). — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I still haven't got very clear ideas what to do with these articles. All the definitions are very fuzzy. In any case nonfirstorderizability is clearly a candidate for merging into elementary definition. Hans Adler 13:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!

I came here to thank you for your comments. I have apologized to Dr. Dec at the RD/M page because as you say (and I agree), there was not sufficient evidence with which I could accuse him initially. I never usually accuse anyone of sockpuppetry, but the recent conflicts with Dr. Dec (the last one almost caused an user to retire, and resulted in Dr. Dec having to change his username altogether) played a factor, for I was afraid that he would bear malice from there. However, you told me in a most civil manner that I should not have accused Dr. Dec lightly, and this certainly helped change my mind about the entire incident. Thanks! --PST 05:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I found what you are referring to. Very unfortunate incident, escalated out of nothing by all parties. I am sure there has been earlier friction leading to this, but I am not sure that I want to know the details. It looks as if the Reference Desk has developed a bit of a culture of solving obvious homework questions for lazy kids. Not good at all. Hans Adler 07:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Concerns

I'm concerned about this, which comes on top of and . We seriously need to challenge this editor's behaviour... I've posted the same message on the other recent "victim"'s talk page. Is a referral to Wikiequette noticeboard the best way forward? I didn't want to do anything without consulting those who've borne the brunt of his attacks. --Pondle (talk) 19:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I am sure I have done my part in confronting this user for now, and in making it clear to them that their behaviour is not appreciated. As you may have seen on the user's talk page I have been quite direct. Their attempt to make things appear like a symmetric affair between them and me failed, and that may already have told them something.

It's not appropriate to speculate about other users' age etc., so I will just say that there may be mitigating circumstances that we don't know about, and that my experience with such users has been that sometimes they become valuable members of the community after a while. I believe that some things that may help are: making it very clear what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't, showing them that they are not fooling anyone by a boastful manner, giving them breathing space to reflect and change their behaviour, noticing when the behaviour does improve, and giving non-condescending positive feedback in this case, and generally respecting their egos.

WQA is generally a good step for resolving this kind of problem if it can be resolved. But if that is the case, then WQA shouldn't come on top of the kind of treatment that the editor has received from me, because if that has started any positive developments, then we don't want to give negative feedback for them. Therefore and since the editor has not edited since the confrontation I suggest that you only go to WQA if and when the editor resumes their problematic behaviour on a comparable level. I am not sure if this has happened already, because I have yet to go through my watchlist. Hans Adler 20:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, it didn't take much looking around to make up my mind about this. The behaviour continues in a modified but not substantially improved form. But as a general rule it's better if problem users report themselves to the appropriate (or not, as the case may be) places. It seems that this is about to happen, so if I were you I would make sure not to report them at this time. Hans Adler 21:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Because of he is your friend

Copycat! . Good analysis, though! A very recent example: defending the spelling land-lady as correct No face-saving techniques, indeed. Bishonen | talk 16:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC).

Sorry for the plagiarism. As to land-lady, I agree it's really eccentric, but I seem to remember a rule that foo-bar and foobar are equivalent in the sense that if one is found in a dictionary then the other is also admissible, but that foo bar is not equivalent with them in this sense. Unfortunately I don't remember the context where this rule lives. Hans Adler 17:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

PS: I just realised that he also defended "land lady". Now that's about as weird as the google hits it produces. Hans Adler 17:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah right

Then he will get a yes or no reaction that he can't ignore. Ha, I wish. Look at Coren's response to Ottava in regard to my "abuse of admin power in addition to talk page harassment and attacks of work". (See my Evidence section "Attacks" for the context.) I admit I was very disappointed in Coren — "personality conflict" ! — while Ottava, going by his second post, was highly encouraged to continue with the abuse and the inventions. Bishonen | talk 23:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

It looks a bit as if Coren might have tried to be diplomatic with Ottava. I think most of us learned only during this Arbcom case (or are about to learn it) that Ottava has no sense for nuances at all and that he interprets even the most strongly negative feedback as positive if you offer him the slightest chance. "I was cheeky to an Arb and wasn't blocked for it." → "I have top position in the pecking order." // "I say that I can trace my family back to 200 AD and nobody contradicts." → "They all admire me so much that they believe me whatever I tell them." // "Coren mentions a personality conflict." → "Coren is telling me I need to take into account that Bishonen is mental."

I have seen more than one editor with this problem (another has recently disrupted the Arbcom election; no, not as a candidate), and it may be worth describing it in an essay and collecting evidence about what strategies work in such a case and what doesn't work. Hans Adler 00:55, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Mmm. Well, I knew that, and an arb has had many previous opportunities to learn it. Grumble. About the election—are you by any chance talking about yet another editor whose problem is that Bishonen is mental? I'd love to see one of the Adler essays un-bone that guy's methods. You un-bone so well! Bishonen | talk 01:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC).

In spite of your having once edited Talk:Solar System I doubt that you have had any interaction with the editor I was referring to. It's the only election incident that I became aware of as it spent some time at ANI. Of course, if there is any monster that I can smash for you to save you from a castle and get admittance to the Cabal, just let me know. (However, I preserve the right to make up my own mind about which is the monster and which is the princess, or whether it's just a couple of frogs.)

PS: Aaaargh! I think I got it! Count me out!!! Hans Adler 11:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation

I noticed you had said on WT:MOS that the American style of punctuating quotes can be confusing. I think the problem is a general underuse of ellipses in our MOS, not with the placement of periods.

If I write, in American style punctuation,

She said, "He is a dog."

You actually can conclude that the quoted part was an entire sentence, or at least an entire thought, because otherwise I would have written:

She said, "He is a dog ...".

Similarly, if someone using the European system writes

He said, "She is a princess".

and the quoted part is not an entire sentence or thought from the original, then an ellipsis should have been used:

He said, "She is a princess ...".

So the problem is not with the placement of the periods, it's with the underuse of ellipses. On the other hand, if I write,

She said he is a "dog."

then it is clear from the brevity of the quote that it was not a full sentence. So I don't see that there is actually any real chance of confusion with American punctuation if people use ellipses properly; but there is an equal chance of confusion with European punctuation if people do not use ellipses properly.

I looked up the Chicago Manual once to see what an actual American style guide would say. They have three different levels of "strictness" for quotations, which vary in terms of punctuation and the number of ellipses required. Presumably people who are concerned about any possible misquotation would just choose the strictest option. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. I admit that I don't take the discussions with that particular user very seriously any more. For me the main arguments are: (1) There is a project-wide consensus, and that's much less confusing than an ENGVAR-like solution. (Even though I prefer the -ise variant of BE spelling myself, I am a strong advocate of standardising on the -ize variant, because it's closer to AE. I think ideally we should standardise on a single variant of English for articles without national ties, and I would agree with AE even though it would be a bit painful for me.) (2) Logical quotation is the "natural" way of doing it, the other way is eccentric in global/interlingual comparison and has lost its technical purpose. (3) It's easier to explain because you needn't worry about handling ; differently from ,. Hans Adler 21:18, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind the idea of picking one way and being done with it. But I personally don't see the issue as relating to possible confusion, I think it's just an arbitrary style choice like many others. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree that it's not a very valid argument. I tried to find where it first came up on "my" side, but failed to find that. Currently it's mostly being used as a strawman by the opposite side, so perhaps I shouldn't try to defend it. But as I said, I am not taking darkfrog24 seriously after pages and pages of fruitless discussion in the MoS talk archive. My two topmost comments in that most recent thread are serious, though, even though the second ends in creative invective. Hans Adler 13:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Italian romantic epic

I've written up an account of the Ludovico Ariosto argument here. Basically, in spite of what Ottava claims, it is not "fringe" to call Orlando Furioso a "romantic epic". In fact it's remarkably common and it's called such by the most recent translation (Slavitt, 2009). None of the following people could be persuaded that the "romantic epic" epithet was fringe: Moreschi, Dougweller, Itsmejudith, The Hand that Feeds, Dbachmann, Akhilleus, Paul Barlow, Mathsci, Ettormo, Drmies. Akhilleus and Dbachmann suggested compromises, however, and Dbachmann even invited Ottava to change "romantic epic" to "romance epic" if it bothered him that much. He refused for some inexplicable reason. But thus began his monumental grudge against users who had taken part in that Fringe Theories Noticeboard discussion. The first hint of it came at Itsmejudith's RFA in January, when he alleged she was part of a cabal. --Folantin (talk) 10:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the context. Perhaps a thorough analysis of that debate would really provide additional insight. On the other hand I am not sure that it's needed any more. Ottava doesn't stop shovelling, and I have some hope that the only real question will be what to do about his behaviour. Hans Adler 10:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a behaviourial issue. The important thing about that debate is not the content dispute but the vendetta that followed, with Ottava stalking me and Dbachmann to the Persian Empire page eight months later. It's obvious he had a grudge against me over the Ariosto issue because he said so himself on a user talk page in June . (Of course, it's complete nonsense that I made it impossible for him to improve the page. I merely altered a single word. I never reverted other additions he had made . Perhaps I should have though. I see that Ottava referred to Ariosto's "rye sense of humor". Was that whisky-induced? Fortunately, someone else fixed it ). --Folantin (talk) 10:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"Rye humor" seems to be the kind of Google search that's well worth repeating once every few years when there is nothing else to do. Hans Adler 11:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's like "corny" jokes (sorry for that one in advance - bad puns go against the grain with me usually). --Folantin (talk) 11:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• You might want to recheck your statement here. Many of the works here, that you used as evidence, do not classify Orlando as a "romantic epic" but an influence on the romantic epics by the Romantic poets. This one does not have such problems. Notice that even Barbara Reynold's translation comes up in that search. Then check out these , , , , etc. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed that nobody refers to Orlando as a "romance epic". I just said it was common and perfectly acceptable to call it a "romantic epic" and anyone familiar with the subject would have seen it referred to as such. Hence there was no reason to change the page. Britannica uses the term, so why not Misplaced Pages. You said this was "fringe" and took it to Fringe Theories Noticeboard. Understandably, nobody agreed with you or your assault on Reynolds. You put this down to a "cabal". --Folantin (talk) 15:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent, ec with Folantin above) OK, Ottava, so you know that it is totally wrong to call Orlando Furioso a "romantic epic". (Not that you have convinced me, but so what.) Why then did you not correct it? Not even after Folantin, and then Dbachmann, invited you to do so? They felt it wasn't necessary. You felt it was absolutely vital, yet you insisted that Folantin had to do it? I am beginning to entertain the possibility that you are not just playing stupid but that you are really, really unable to see the difference between

• "'Romantic epic' and 'romance epic' are equally valid in this context."

and

• "Only 'romantic epic' is valid in this context."

The first was your opponents' position. The second seems to be what you imagined their position to be in spite of all the obvious evidence to the contrary.

Such serious miscommunications are extremely rare unless you are involved. It doesn't matter whether you have a binary brain that can only deal with black and white and never learned about different shades of grey; whether you are roleplaying; whether you are intentionally disruptive; whether you are so preoccupied with fantasies about conspiracies against you that you can't pay attention to what your opponents are saying; or whatever is the reason. Getting to the root of this is none of our business here at Misplaced Pages except that it would be nice to have some guidance on possible ways to get you out of this problem. But one thing is absolutely clear: your communication problems are leading to massive disruption in this project, and this disruption must stop. It can only stop (a) by you changing your behaviour, or (b) by you leaving the project. I hope it will be (a), and since it's clear that this will be hard for you I think we must think about ways of protecting unsuspecting editors who run into you before you have finished that process.

Perhaps the following gets through to you as a demonstration that you have a problem:

• When you say "I am civil" you actually mean "I am not breaking WP:CIVIL in a blockworthy way" – a dramatically weaker statement.
• When Folantin says "'romantic epic' and 'romance epic' are equally good and there is no need to switch" you assume that he actually means "'romance epic' is wrong and therefore the wording 'romantic epic' must not be changed" – a dramatically stronger statement.

Interpreting your own statements as something weaker than what you said when you have to defend them, and your opponents' statements as something stronger than they said when you are attacking them. That's an ultra-cheap rhetorical technique that only works when your opponent is stupid or doesn't get a chance to respond. It's despicable to even try it in a consensus-based project such as Misplaced Pages, but it looks as if it has become second nature to you so: you can't even control it in front of the arbitration committee. Hans Adler 15:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It's quite a mystery why Ottava never took the opportunity when it was offered to him. --Folantin (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• "never claimed that nobody refers to Orlando as a "romance epic"." If that was true, you wouldn't be so obstinate against use of Romance Epic instead of Romantic Epic for the page. That is the center of the argument. Either you allow the compromise, or you don't. If you don't, then you are ignoring lots of major criticism without a good justification. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, you were offered a chance to change it yourself to "romance epic" way back in January. Why didn't you do it? --Folantin (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't edit war. You made fun of me for it. I -did- originally put it up and did make a revert, and Moreschi and you edited it out of existence. I'm not giving you some excuse to claim I am breaking rules. If you want to prove that you discuss and compromise, you would put it up yourself. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Then you got the green light to make the change but you didn't make it . You insisted I make it for you. --Folantin (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

You've already expressed what can be construed as ownership and have brought up the issue over a dozen times in multiple unrelated pages. If you want to show that you really care about compromise, discussion, and working with people, why have you not bothered to change it yourself? Why are you so aggressive on so many pages about it, yet when you say it could be okay you have not done it to prove such? Ottava Rima (talk) 19:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

" have brought up the issue over a dozen times in multiple unrelated pages". Eh? You're the one who took it to Fringe Theories Noticeboard, user talk pages (including, it now appears, one on Wikiversity), the Content Noticeboard and canvassed the issue several times on IRC. If you are so desperate to make the change, go ahead and make it. Either that or drop the whole matter. --Folantin (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I have canvassed about Ludovico Ariosto? Then how come no one except people you've had a long time editing with participated in both the talk page and the fringe noticeboard page? And when I asked someone who blatantly does not like me, Geogre, he agreed with me on the matter? Your argument is rather odd, and you still haven't provided a reason as to why you haven't changed it yourself, which is rather odd too. You've been asked many times, and yet nothing. Are you afraid to? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you canvassed on IRC. But nobody paid any attention to your pleas because, frankly, it seems pretty much everyone is bored of your badgering by now. You've already had my reason for not changing it myself: I don't care. It is perfectly accurate to call Orlando a "romantic epic" as the page (and others on Misplaced Pages) do now. If you are so passionate about the phrase "romance epic" then it's up to you to alter it. --Folantin (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Have proof that I "canvassed" on IRC? By the way, I altered it four minutes before you responded. Now that it has been changed, are you going to answer the question posed to you for eleven months as to why you haven't changed it yourself if you really believed it was an acceptable compromise? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've got proof. It's on its way to the arbs. As for the rest, you've already had your answer. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to involve myself in the mess that the Ottava Rima ArbCom case has become. However, I will just restate here what I said on WP:FTN. His on-wiki assertion that the scholar Barbara Reynolds is a "hack writer" is his own personal opinion, and probably a BLP violation. She is usually referred to as a leading expert on Dante. His other assertion that her post-war appointment as University Lecturer in the University of Cambridge was inconsequential and that anybody could have such a post is also a personal opinion and quite untrue, just as much today as it was then. Barbara Reynolds is now in her nineties. It is quite inappropriate for her reputation to be smeared on wikipedia, even by editors who despise her work. Why am I reminded of User:Log in, log out's comments about Johanna Nichols? Mathsci (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Mathsci, one only needs to look at your inappropriate and harassing comments over at Misplaced Pages Review where you admit your friendship and bias towards Moreschi. And yes, Barbara Reynolds can never be classified as an expert on epic and it is amazing that you would try to suggest otherwise. And lecturer is not an advanced position. Cambridge has thousands of lecturers, most teaching low level classes. If you want to call pointing out the obvious a "smear", then there is really nothing to be said for you. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it's true that lecturer is not an "advanced position"; its rough equivalent in the US system is assistant professor. Of course, Reynolds has been a bit more than a lecturer; she's been a visiting professor at institutions in the US and at Trinity College, Dublin, and a readers at the University of Nottingham. She's also been honored by the Italian government for her services to Italian literature ...quite impressive for a "hack writer". --Akhilleus (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

But not once a professor of epic, let alone Renaissance Epic. It is always "Italian" literature, which is based on her ability to translate. And Akhilleus, a "hack writer" is one who writes to make money, not one who writes for academia. Her record is nothing close to someone like Zatti or David Quint. You keep thinking that some publications (based on standards, not that much for her long career) equals expert whereas they aren't the right publications. David Quint for comparison. Remember, I listed many such people. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"based on her ability to translate"? Do you have any evidence for your bizarre contention that Reynolds' positions were granted because of her ability to translate, and not because of her competence as a translator, lexicographer, teacher, and scholar? And is there a reason why you feel compelled to insult Reynolds' accomplishments? I notice you're still referring to her as a hack writer. I have to agree with Mathsci that this is a BLP violation.

I have no idea what a "professor of epic" is. Is there an epic studies department out there somewhere? David Quint teaches in a department of comparative literature. Based on the logic you're employing here, I guess that means he has the ability to translate literature from two languages... --Akhilleus (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

← (ec) Just a few comments, if Hans will forgive me. WR is somewhat irrelevant: I commented on OR's editing style (I compared it to that of User:Mrathel, which I find exemplary). What OR has written about the University of Cambridge is clueless and inaccurate. Most lecturers in Cambridge teach one undergraduate course, one postgraduate course and supervise Ph.D. students. They are appointed primarily on the basis of their research, not on their teaching ability. The standard lecture load is 40 lectures (16 + 24). (There might conceivably be some confusion between college fellows and university lecturers; there is also a difference between an assistant lecturer in Cambridge and a University Lecturer.) The vast majority of lecturers in Cambridge are now professors following the campaign of Gillian Evans, Emeritus Professor of Theology, in the 1990s. Prior to that, unlike the USA, there were very few professors in the university, most of them having named chairs; now that is no longer the case. Moreschi is not a friend of mine - I've never interacted with him to my knowledge. I once participated on WP:ANI with Folantin when User:Log in, log out showed up making disparaging remarks about the female academic from the University of California at Berkeley mentioned above. Mathsci (talk) 01:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• "Do you have any evidence for your bizarre contention that Reynolds' positions were granted because of her ability to translate" I take it that you didn't bother to check her "scholarly" publications. Most of them were a handful of translations with no real books of criticism. "Is there an epic studies department out there somewhere?" See, there are professors of "Victorian poetry", "Professors of American Fiction", etc. Normally, when universities have positions, they hire people based on a focus area. Epic is a focus. "I have to agree with Mathsci that this is a BLP violation." Go ahead and claim it as such all you want, but the term "hack writer" is not a pejorative. It merely denotes that one writes books to sell, which translations and popular biographies fall under.
• "The vast majority of lecturers in Cambridge are now professors" I'd love to see proof of such claims. Seeing as how the "majority" of faculty at Cambridge probably never will have permanent positions (if you go by numbers). "I've never interacted with him to my knowledge" And yet you showed up at quite a few of these pages and vigorously defended him at WR. I find that interesting. I already provided examples of conversations with both you and Akhilleus arguing... what you are arguing above. How odd that you happen to coincide together at the same time while trying to argue the same point. You wouldn't happen to be sharing details of what you wish to say before posting, do you? It would make sense for you to get your talking points synchronized first. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I was a tenured faculty member in Cambridge. 20 years ago there were probably only 6 or 7 chairs in the department. Now there are over 20 and promotion is usually a simple matter, based on age, provided research contributions remain constant. Almost all university lectureships in Cambridge become tenured after 3 years. There might be some confusion due to posts such as junior research fellowships in colleges or college lectureships. There is a distinction between university posts and college posts. University posts are tenured; these often come with college fellowships, coterminous with the university appointment, although life fellowships are often awarded after 25 years service. Appointments solely through colleges and not the university are usually temporary; that is not what is under discussion here. Mathsci (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"was a tenured faculty member in Cambridge" Fascinating. Most people I know who worked with Cambridge or just went to Cambridge referred to a specific college, but you haven't at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

A response to Ottava: Ah, another unsupported accusation of meatpuppetry. Perhaps I will add my voice to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions/Evidence after all.

I'm quite familiar with the idea of academic areas of focus. But listing "epic poetry" as one of your areas of focus on your CV, webpage, etc. doesn't make you a "professor of epic"--it makes you a professor of comparative literature (or English, Italian, Classics, whatever) who specializes in epic poetry. As far as Reynolds, there's plenty of reason to think that she knows a bit about epic (she translated one, after all, and taught Italian literature--which includes some epic--for many years). Your arguments that she isn't qualified to speak about epic boil down to insults directed at Reynolds' scholarship and an apparent disrespect of the craft of translation--as if translators are automatons who don't have valuable opinions about the literature they translate.

The idea that "hack writer" is "not a pejorative" is ridiculous. You could profit from reading the linked article, if only to see that your concept of the term is idiosyncratic. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:57, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"Ah, another unsupported accusation of meatpuppetry" No, just a question. After all, you edit conflicted while saying the same thing. It is quite amusing how you are both arguing the same points and yet trying to distance yourself from any relationship with anyone else. "as one of your areas of focus on your CV, webpage, etc. doesn't make you a "professor of epic"" - Zatti is a professor of epic. David Quint is a professor of epic. They publish books on epic as a genre. They tend to hang out in the same groups at various conferences. Specialists in epic are rather prominent. "The idea that "hack writer" is "not a pejorative" is ridiculous" - Samuel Johnson said that there was no legitimate reason to write except for money. Grub Street had a very old tradition of it. There are thousands of dime novelists authors that don't see their trade as a bad thing. Hell, popular books are called popular for a reason. Wanting to make money is not a negative. But it does place someone as less reliable when they don't lack standard academic works in a specific area. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Ottava--I should have said "another unsupported insinuation of meatpuppetry." I apologize for the error. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't apologize yet, because I never said you were posting on his behalf. You could just be tag teaming. :P But seriously, you don't really do yourself a favor when you are both defending yourself and the other. If you aren't actually working cooperatively, it would probably help to focus on yourself and not the other guy. Regardless, I didn't even bother to list you on any of the workshop proposals, so there is no real reason to be so agitated or defensive. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)