Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:41, 25 November 2009

Lia Looveer

Lia Looveer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

There is too little published information about this subject in order to advance the article beyond a stub. Although the article describes the subject as an "Estonian émigré politician in Australia", the book The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia only mentions the subject in a picture and a footnote. The Four Deuces (talk) 05:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• 'Delete' Keep her awards if true would make her notable but I can't find any sources verifying that. she also has no coverage in gnews also for her maiden name . LibStar (talk) 10:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

actually she has a British Empire medal. I change my vote. . LibStar (talk) 22:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment (for now) Information is not always in the expected places. There was virtually NO coverage of Baltic activities during the half century of Soviet occupation. Google book and news searches are not going go yield anything of much use. On the other hand, one can find references such as this, with mention of Looveer's 50 years of service at the Parliament of New South Wales site. The article has been mired in speculation as to whether she was a Nazi collaborator, this has detracted from any useful work on the article for some time.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Not enough morning coffee. Forgot about her being a recipient of the British Empire Medal. That award should make her notable enough and we should get back to positive activities on improving the article. I added the missing category to the article and a link to a page listing her as a recipient.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep per Vecrumba, the fact that a half a dozen of people from around the globe edit war about aspects of the the biography of a dead woman clerily indicate that she is notable and her biography is of public interest Alex Bakharev (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment I can't tell if she would be notable enough for wikipedia purposes nor do I have an opinion about either the article should be deleted or not. But since I've been involved with the article somewhat, here is a citation so people who are better experts on WP:Notability issues could make up their mind easier, a citation from the State Library of New South Wales--Termer (talk) 03:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Lia Looveer was Secretary General of the United Council of Migrants from Communist Dominated Europe in Australia and was Secretary of the Captive Nations Council of New South Wales from 1968. Born in Estonia in 1920, she came to Australia with her husband and daughter in 1949. She settled in Sydney in 1952 and became a member of the Joint Baltic Committee. She was a member of the Board of the Estonian Society of Sydney and office manager of the Estonian weekly Meie Rodo, 1956-1966. Looveer joined the Liberal Party of Australia, N.S.W. Division, in 1955, and was a member of its Migrant Advisory Committee and of the federal Party's Advisory Committee on Ethnic Affairs, 1976-1981, as well as a member of the State Council over the same period. She is a foundation member of the Ethnic Communities' Council of N.S.W. Looveer was awarded the British Empire Medal in 1978 and received a Heritage Award from the Liberal Party of Australia, N.S.W. Division, in 2002.

• Comment While I agree that Looveer is notable because of her connection with Lyenko Urbanchich, David Clarke, and Douglas Darby and his son Michael, the problem is that there are no reliable sources that explain her relationship. Although ASIO investigated the group, I cannot find anything they wrote about Looveer. Also, the ADL, SPLC and Searchlight have no articles about her. The problem is that we do not have adequate sources at this time to establish notablity. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What was that all about? first you nominate the article for deletion by saying not notable and now you claim Looveer is notable because of "her connection with right-wing extremists" even though "there are no reliable sources that explain her relationship"? From where do you get this "connection with right-wing extremists" in the first place? as none of the sources you listed do not even mention Looveer. So what is this AfD all about again?--Termer (talk) 06:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Although I think Looveer is notable, there are insufficient sources to create an article. There are sources that connect her with all the men I mentioned. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Notability is derived from sources, not what someone like you may think. If there are no sources that explain her relationship with these men, it is because this relationship is not considered notable if it even existed. That you think this relationship is notable is WP:OR. On the other hand Looveer is notable for receiving the BEM for services to ethnic communities, this is what the sources tell us. Note that the Liberal Party of Australia is considered centre-right and the right faction within the Liberal party isn't considered extreme by any stretch of the imagination. Also note that David Clarke (Australian politician), has successfully sued Melbourne University Press for defamation for imputations of political extremism, therefore I have removed a part of your statement for WP:BLP reasons. --Martin (talk) 10:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The Clarke lawsuit has not been heard and it is primarily related to comments unrelated to his political position. I am not relying on anything written in that book but on The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia, which is a reliable source and has not been sued. While the LPNSW may be centre-right, it had a far right element as evidenced in the obituary of Lyenko Urbanchich in The Sydney Morning Herald: "Ardent Nazi took Liberal to extremes". The fact that Looveer received a BEM on the recommendation of the government of NSW does not make her notable but is evidence of notability. There are no sources explaining what her service was other than positions held. If there are sources explaining her role then an article could be sustained. But at present it is just a stub with less detail than a CV. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Never the less, Looveer is notable for her services to the ethnic communities, not for her alleged association with certain Liberal party figures as the lack of sources indicate. The only thing she had in common with Urbanchich is that they both were foreign born immigrants to Australia, to suggest otherwise is at best WP:SYNTH. --Martin (talk) 22:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I haven't looked into wider notability yet, but I would like to say that a British Empire Medal by itself is not enough to confer notability. It is a lower honour than MBE, which itself is lower than OBE, and even that is an honour that is routinely given to mid-level civil servants for simply doing their job. We'd have to be looking at CBE or higher before getting into the realms of automatic notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is interesting - a big discussion about my mother and no-one has contacted her family to check anything.

If one looks at Lia's history, it is evident that Lia's life was about fighting against communism, as it had destroyed her family and home. Lia spoke many languages (?more than 10), and thus was used in Greta Camp (NSW, Australia) as an announcer and translator. Whilst escaping from Estonia, she had to help put food on the table and undertook similar work; no . If you want to call her a Nazi Collaborator, then you should think of every single person who sold food to Germans at any stage, who wrote to anyone in Germany, etc. This is absolutely ludicrous.

I note that someone also mentioned that her connection to supposed "Nazi collaborators" in Australia was misguided - she worked with many other opponents of communism and proponents of freedom, hence her association with the liberal Party and key "right-wingers" such as Eileen Furley, Phillip Ruddock, Douglas Darby and others. Indeed, one week after being elected Prime Minister of Australia, Gough Whitlam actually phoned our home and tried to explain why the Labour Party of Australia could not recognise the independence of Estonia and the other Baltic states; I wonder how the current Labour Party sees that policy? Bottom line - Lia spent her life opposing communism and slavery, and fighting for freedom, mainly of her homeland. Any activities were related to that.

As with many small groups, Minutes of the Baltic Committee, Captive Nations Council, etc, copies were kept by Committee members and related organisations, but following the collapse of the Russian Communist Regime in 1990, many became of little interest and have disappeared with the mists of time.

Pity no-one checked with me before I got rid of many files after she died. However, many documents were handed to the Mitchell Librtary in Sydney, or the Estonian Archives.

PS Lia also worked in the fund-raising section of the Royal Alexandria Hospital for Children for over 25 years. She was on the Executive of the YWCA for a while, and worked with the Spastic and Crippled Children’s Associations (as my sister had been born handicapped).

Please contact me for further information.

• AfD debates (Biographical)
• AfD debates