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Revision as of 18:39, 26 December 2005

Cut from Fascism and the political spectrum

I cut the following from the section "Fascism and the political spectrum":

Ironically, this can be a good argument to consider fascism as "rigth-wing": in European political tradition, refusing the left-rigth division is, usually, considered a rigth-wing position itself (because the left-rigth terminology was, in great, wat, "invented" by the "left-wing").

Odd spelling, but that is neither here nor there. It may be possible to take this "ironic" view, but unless there is some citation for this, it does not belong in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, good edit. Sam Spade 01:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Cut by Sam Spade

This edit cut:

The majority view is that fascism is a movement of the right that co-opted certain tactics, rhetoric, and even policies of the left.

Sam's edit summary is "various, if you want to cite a 'majority; view, please do so". Sam, are you saying that the statement is inaccurate, or merely that it needs citation? And what would qualify as acceptable citation? The opinion of a scholar that this is the majority view, or what?

In any event, if we want to cut uncited statements from the article, may I point out that by that criterion the following should be removed. (By the way, the first four I would certainly want to keep, and think that their removal would fall under WP:POINT. I'm just pointing out why I am inclined to imagine that Sam's removal of this was motivated by something other than a general dislike of uncited material.) Some of them are clearly POV or poorly written, to boot:

Fascism tends to be associated with the political right, but the appropriateness of this association is often contested.

Despite this ideological difference, in practice many—arguably most or all—communist states have had much in common with fascist states, in matters ranging from militarism to censorship.

There is some controversy about the ideological impact of the conservative element in fascism.

The relationship with right-wing ideologies (including some that are described as neo-fascist) is still an issue for conservatives and their opponents. Especially in Germany, there is a constant exchange of ideology and persons, between the influential national-conservative movement, and self-identified national-socialist groups. In Italy too, there is no clear line between conservatives, and movements inspired by the Italian Fascism of the 1920s to 1940s, including the Alleanza Nazionale which is member of the governing coalition under premier Silvio Berlusconi. Conservative attitudes to the 20th-century fascist regimes are still an issue.

Likewise, claims that classic liberals, neoliberals, or even neoconservatives, are fascists is equally ridiculous given that their economic preferences are those of openness, free trade, and limited government interference; the exact opposite economic preferences fascists.

• Rather POV, to boot. - JM

Others see them as being so dissimilar as to be utterly incomparable.

• Probably not even true. While many writers consider Nazism and Stalinism very different, I've never seen any assert that comparison is impossible. In fact, some of those who most reject the similarity do so by means of feature-by-feature comparison. - JM

While the view that there are certain fascist elements obting within the United States is believed by many people, certainly very few scholars would call the U.S. in its entirety, a fascist country.

• Except for the mysterious word "obting" (is this a word? If so, can someone provide a definition and perhaps substitute something less obscure?), I happen to agree with this, but it is exactly as uncited as what Sam removed. - JM

The idea of fascism developing in the United States was first presented in the 1935 satirical novel It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis.

• If we remove "first" this is self-evident, but there is no citation for "first" and, frankly, I doubt it. Any objections to removing that word? - JM

Anyway, Sam, to reiterate the questions I started with, are you saying that the removed statement is inaccurate, or merely that it needs citation? And what would qualify as acceptable citation? The opinion of a scholar that this is the majority view, or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You could cite a scholar who thinks that, sure. That still won't make it it true. These "most scientists think JFK is a Jelly Donut" or "Most scholars comb their hair w brill creme" claims are complete balderdash.

For one thing, ALOT of scolars are chinese, muslim, african, russian, and etc... non-western, and not likely to be thinking the same as most scholars you are familiar w. So, in sum, I'd rather you cut thru uncited claims w a machete then see something like:

"The majority view is that fascism is a movement of the right that co-opted certain tactics, rhetoric, and even policies of the left.

stand. Its worse than uncited, its unverifiable, the worst sort of rhetorical claim. Sorry, but having been a scientific pollster and sociological researcher, I have little patience for claims like this which are impossible to prove. Its just one of those things that aggravates me, nothing personal.

You found alot of crappy material while making your point btw, I agree w most of your assessments of it, and would like to see much of it reworded or removed. Sam Spade 01:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Sam, I'm not saying I'd just leave the sentence intact and footnote it, I'm saying that I would cite who makes this claim, probably a list of most of the leading scholars in the field. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

lol, lets see it. Sam Spade 22:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Check any of the recent major texts on fascism and neofascism and it will be clear that Payne, Griffin, Eatwell, Frtizsche, Laqueur, Laclau, Reich and more recently Paxton and Redles represent the majority view: fascism borrows from the left, but eventually consolidates with the right. In contrast, only a handful of conservative economists have written text arguing that fascism is a form of socialism or left-wing corporatism (von Mises, Flynn, von Hayek). Most of these are older texts. Sam Spade has been deleting accurate summaries about fascism for months. I have repeatedly provided cites. In the real world where scholars of fascism operate, there is an awareness of these marginal claims that fascism is on the political left, but they are seldom given much attention. I challenge Sam Spade to check the footnotes of the books I have cited, and demonstrate that his argument has any weight in fascist studies.--Cberlet 00:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I have checked plenty of texts, and as you say, they generally agree that fascism is based on socialist/syndicalist ideas, but tends to find support on the right in its factional fight against marxism. Other rightest tendancies include their acceptance of support from big business, royalty and/or the church. None of these sources you mention is the "majority view", nor do they stand in opposition to one another.

I understand your POV, as a "scholar of fascism" (partisan leftist), and the reasoning behind it. Thats not notable here. There are as many conceptions of the left-right (false) dichotomy as their are analysts of it. One that I recently heard from a professor is that at the extreme right is anarchism, and at the extreme left is totalitarianism. That is not however my view. I find "left" and "right" arbitrary an intentionally obfuscating appeal to 19th century French politics regarding unrelated differences between modern political opponents. In sum, cite an expert refering to what they feel is a majority view, or move on. Sam Spade 08:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I cite experts, you ignore them. I cite experts, and apparently without reading their books, you claim they do not say what they say. I cite experts explaining how fascism is ultimately right-wing, and you claim that your view is somehow accurate, but the experts that I cite--the recognized experts in the field--the majority view--is wrong. I have cited the leading experts in the field. Recognized by their peers. Who are you citing?--Cberlet 18:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Sam: you say "lets see it"; Cberlet, at my request, cites seven works (Payne, Griffin, Eatwell, Fritzsche, Laqueur, Laclau, Reich), all of them in the article's reference list; you delete the references with an ad hominem remark about who made the edit. I have restored them. While I would prefer, if possible, that the citations were more specific than just the names of works, (Cberlet: do you think you could come up with some key passages and footnote to them, instead of just mentioning entire books?), the works I am familiar with in his list (Fritzsche, Reich) certainly do put forward the opinion for which he cites them. I could also add David Schoenbaum (Hitler's Social Revolution) as saying the same thing; in fact, it is the central theme of that very well-researched work. Are there any of these citations you specifically doubt? If there are, that would suggest in which book it would be most important to do the work necessary to give a more specific citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Nobody cited anybody saying "most". Cberlet's citation attempt was fraudulant, Jmabels correction is acceptable. Sam Spade 05:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

D'Annunzio

There are any source about D'Annunzio being anarchist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.84.81.171 (talk • contribs) 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)

A quick Google search turned up Hakim Bey's famous essay on the Temporary Autonomous Zone], which puts D'Annunzio at the center of the post-WWI anarchist experiment in Fiume (which can also easily be confirmed from any number of other sources). Fits in with what I've heard elsewhere. Do you have any reason to doubt it? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Until I read this article, I never heard calling to "Fiume under D'Annunzio" an "anarchist experiment" (even the essay of Hakim Bey don't do that).

The Constitution of Fiume does not seem "anarchist". Excluding some peculiarities, like the "corporations" and the "commander", it is more or less similar to the modern constituitions of the western countries.--194.65.151.17 12:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. I suppose "anarchist" is too strong a word (and, admittedly, I don't know a ton about it). Still, it seems, from what I know, to have been an evolution out of anarcho-syndicalism, and to be part of the chain through which certain "direct action" anarchists drifted toward Fascism. But I could be seriously mistaken: I'll admit I don't know a lot about this. I wish someone who did would step forward. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I do, you assessment is correct, Jmabel. The debate about what anarchism really means is better had elsewhere, we are simply referring to the man as he and others referred to himself. Sam Spade 22:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Sam, what I am saying I do not know a lot about is the short-lived republic in Fiume, and I have seen no signs that you know a lot about that. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Then I will ignore your comments on the subject in the future. Sam Spade 00:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand that: because I am not an expert, I may not go out and to research on the topic? And there is no chance that I will gain knowledge on anything I do not already know?

On my user talk page, you strongly imply that you "know a great deal about" the Republic of Fiume (or, I suppose more properly, the Italian Regency of Carnaro). As I remarked there, currently, we don't have an article on the topic, just a few remarks in passing in our article on Gabriele D'Annunzio (where your contributions are minimal, and don't touch on this subject) and stubs at Constitution of Fiume and Alceste de Ambris (to which you did not contribute). Again, I will suggest that if you know a lot about the topic, we could really use a solid, factual article on the actual events. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

No, because you suggest that I am lying regarding my knowledge on the subject, I see little use in attempting dialogue w you regarding it. I appreciate your request for the unrewarding task of donating writing on the subject (and the likelihood that you will request assistance from POV wiki-partisans to harry me in such an endeavor), and I will consider doing so, but not until after midterms, and my return from france ;) Sam Spade 08:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Sam, let's see if I've got this: I am supposed to presume your good faith at every turn, but you are to doubt mine? As for the link in your previous paragraph, I invite people to follow it: I left a note on the user talk page of a person who has published extensively on this topic, suggesting that, on a point where you challenged me to provide citations, he probably has citations more readily at hand than I do, and asking if he could save me some research by providing those citations and saving me some time in the library. How on earth is that is an objectionable act? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

You contacted a guy who is currently in an arbcom case (in which I am involved) for being a POV pushing extremist. That was unfortunate. As far as me assuming good faith on your part, i do. You seem capable of neutrality, despite various errors. I have my complaints w some of your actions, comments and edits, but i get the impression you are someone capable of progress and dialogue. Thanks, Sam Spade 05:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I had no idea you were in an arbcom case. Might have crossed my sights at some point, but generally I don't keep track of those things. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep, I didn't assume you knew, and I'm glad to hear you didn't. Here are a couple of links regarding that matter: Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Cberlet and Sam Spade, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Nobs01_and_others#Case_against_Cberlet.

Sam Spade 09:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

"we are simply referring to the man as he and others referred to himself"

But did he (D'Annunzio) refer to himself as an "anarchist"?--212.113.164.104 19:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say he called himself an anarchist, but De Ambris, who mainly wrote the constitution, is generally referred to as a anarcho-syndicalist, and the pirate based economy of Fiume reminds me of somalia, how about you? ;)

Sam Spade 14:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Fascism & the State

Mussolini & most scholars make it clear that fascism considers the "state" to be of primary importance, not the "nation" or the "collective." Marginal libertarian and conservative views on this subject deserve a brief mention, but they should not be allowed to claim a central place in a serious scholarly discussion of fascism. See Mussolini on this subject here.--Cberlet 18:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Then why did you remove mention of the state in your revert? Please don't revert blindly in the future. Better to discuss and compare citations. Were all aware of your POV regarding views you describe as conservative, but please try to keep that POV from censoring the article. Our readers deserve a balanced source of information. Sam Spade 18:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do not attempt to force a marginal viewpoint on this article as if it represents the main thread of serious scholarship.--Cberlet 18:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Please listen to your own advice. The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics is not a marginal viewpoint. Sam Spade 18:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The cited text is both a marginal source and POV. In addition, the cited text opens by pointing out the Mussolini promoted the "state."--Cberlet 18:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Please provide evidence that The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics is a marginal source, and/or POV. Sam Spade 18:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It would appear that Library of Congress differs with Cberlet's POV on this particular. I think we know which is considered a more expert witness, yes? Sam Spade 18:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics is a private website run by economic libertarians. Nicely done. Serious scholars involved. But it is not a major book or journal article, nor a primary source document. The main scholars of fascism--along with Mussolini--argue that the "state" is primary in fascism. The arguments about collectivism, so-called "liberal corporatism," and the similarities across totalitarianism deserve to be mention, but they should be mentioned as representing minorty viewpoints. For the mainstream viewpoints, see Eatwell, Payne, Griffin, Laqueur, Paxton, etc.--Cberlet 18:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)