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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Climate change article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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faq page Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the link to the right of the question. To view references used by an answer, you must also click the for references at the bottom of the FAQ. Q1: Is there really a scientific consensus on climate change? A1: Yes. The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by over 99% of publishing climate scientists. See also: Scientific consensus on climate change Q2: How can we say climate change is real when it's been so cold in such-and-such a place? A2: This is why it is termed "global warming", not "(such-and-such a place) warming". Even then, what rises is the average temperature over time – that is, the temperature will fluctuate up and down within the overall rising trend. To give an idea of the relevant time scales, the standard averaging period specified by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) is 30 years. Accordingly, the WMO defines climate change as "a statistically significant variation in either the mean state of the climate or in its variability, persisting for an extended period (typically decades or longer)." Q3: Can't the increase of CO2 be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans? A3: While these claims are popular among global warming skeptics, including academically trained ones, they are incorrect. This is known from any of several perspectives: Current human emissions of CO2 are at least 100 times larger than volcanic emissions. Measurements of CO2 levels over the past 50 years do not show any significant rises after eruptions. This is easily seen in a graph of CO2 concentrations over the past 50 years: the strongest eruption during the period, that of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, produced no increase in the trend. Isotopic analysis of atmospheric carbon dioxide shows the observed change in the ratio of carbon isotopes reflects the isotopic ratios in fossil fuels. Atmospheric oxygen content is decreasing at a rate that agrees with the amount of oxygen being used to burn fossil fuels. If the oceans were giving up some of their carbon dioxide, their carbon dioxide concentration would have to decrease. But instead we are measuring an increase in the oceans' carbon dioxide concentration, resulting in the oceans becoming more acidic (or in other words, less basic). Q4: I think the article is missing some things, or has some things wrong. Can I change it? A4: Yes. Keep in mind that your points need to be based on documented evidence from the peer-reviewed literature, or other information that meets standards of verifiability, reliability, and no original research. If you do not have such evidence, more experienced editors may be able to help you find it (or confirm that such evidence does not exist). You are welcome to make such queries on the article's talk page but please keep in mind that the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing the topic. There are many forums that welcome general discussions of global warming, but the article talk page is not such a forum. Q5: Why haven't the graphs been updated? A5: Two reasons: There are many images used in the articles related to global warming, and there are many reasons why they may not be updated with the latest data. Some of the figures, like the Global Warming Map, are static, meaning that they are intended to show a particular phenomenon and are not meant to be updated frequently or at all. Others, like the Instrumental Temperature Record and Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies, use yearly data and thus are updated once per year—usually in mid- to late-January, depending upon when the data is publicly released, and when a volunteer creates the image. Still others, like Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide, use monthly data. These are updated semi-regularly. However, just because an image is 6 months or a year old does not mean it is useless. Robert A. Heinlein is credited with saying, "Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get", meaning that climate is defined as a long-term average of weather, usually about 30 years. This length was chosen to eliminate the year-to-year variations. Thus, in terms of climate change, any given year's data is of little import. Q6: Isn't climate change "just a theory"? A6: People who say this are abusing the word "theory" by conflating its common meaning with its scientific meaning. In common usage, "theory" can mean a hunch or guess, but a scientific theory, roughly speaking, means a coherent set of explanations that is compatible with observations and that allows predictions to be made. That the temperature is rising is an observation. An explanation for this (also known as a hypothesis) is that the warming is primarily driven by greenhouse gases (such as CO2 and methane) released into the atmosphere by human activity. Scientific models have been built that predict the rise in temperature and these predictions have matched observations. When scientists gain confidence in a hypothesis because it matches observation and has survived intense scrutiny, the hypothesis may be called a "theory". Strictly speaking, scientific theories are never proven, but the degree of confidence in a theory can be discussed. The scientific models now suggest that it is "extremely likely" (>95%) to "virtually certain" (>99%) that the increases in temperature have been caused by human activity as discussed in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. Global warming via greenhouse gases by human activity is a theory (in the scientific sense), but it is most definitely not just a hunch or guess. Q7: Does methane cause more warming than CO2? A7: It's true that methane is more potent molecule for molecule. But there's far less of it in the atmosphere, so the total effect is smaller. The atmospheric lifetime of methane (about 10 years) is a lot shorter than that of CO2 (hundreds to thousands of years), so when methane emissions are reduced the concentration in the atmosphere soon falls, whereas CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere over long periods. For details see the greenhouse gas and global warming potential articles. See also: Clathrate gun hypothesis and Arctic methane release Q8: How can you say there's a consensus when lists of "skeptical scientists" have been compiled? A8: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Over 99% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change. This is an extremely high percentage well past any reasonable threshold for consensus. Any list of "skeptical scientists" would be dwarfed by a comparably compiled list of scientists accepting anthropogenic climate change. Q9: Did climate change end in 1998? A9: One of the strongest El Niño events in the instrumental record occurred during late 1997 through 1998, causing a spike in global temperature for 1998. Through the mid-late 2000s this abnormally warm year could be chosen as the starting point for comparisons with later years in order to produce a cooling trend; choosing any other year in the 20th century produced a warming trend. This no longer holds since the mean global temperatures in 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015 and 2016 have all been warmer than 1998. More importantly, scientists do not define a "trend" by looking at the difference between two given years. Instead they use methods such as linear regression that take into account all the values in a series of data. The World Meteorological Organisation specifies 30 years as the standard averaging period for climate statistics so that year-to-year fluctuations are averaged out; thus, 10 years isn't long enough to detect a climate trend. Q10: Wasn't Greenland much warmer during the period of Norse settlement? A10: Some people assume this because of the island's name. In fact the Saga of Erik the Red tells us Erik named the new colony Greenland because "men will desire much the more to go there if the land has a good name." Advertising hype was alive and well in 985 AD. While much of Greenland was and remains under a large ice sheet, the areas of Greenland that were settled by the Norse were coastal areas with fjords that, to this day, remain quite green. You can see the following images for reference: A map of the Eastern Settlement A satellite image of that area today A map of the Western Settlement A satellite image of that area today A zoom in on the general area where the Brattahlíð (Erik the Red's farm) and Garðar farms were located Q11: Are the IPCC reports prepared by biased UN scientists? A11: The IPCC reports are not produced by "UN scientists". The IPCC does not employ the scientists who generate the reports, and it has no control over them. The scientists are internationally recognized experts, most with a long history of successful research in the field. They are employed by various organizations including scientific research institutes, agencies like NASA and NOAA, and universities. They receive no extra pay for their participation in the IPCC process, which is considered a normal part of their academic duties. Q12: Hasn't global sea ice increased over the last 30 years? A12: Measurements show that it has not. Claims that global sea ice amounts have stayed the same or increased are a result of cherry picking two data points to compare, while ignoring the real (strongly statistically significant) downward trend in measurements of global sea ice amounts. Arctic sea ice cover is declining strongly; Antarctic sea ice cover has had some much smaller increases, though it may or may not be thinning, and the Southern Ocean is warming. The net global ice-cover trend is clearly downwards. See also: Arctic sea ice decline See also: Antarctic sea ice § Recent trends and climate change Q13: Weren't scientists telling us in the 1970s that the Earth was cooling instead of warming? A13: They weren't – see the article on global cooling. An article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society has reviewed the scientific literature at that time and found that even during the 1970s the prevailing scientific concern was over warming. The common misperception that cooling was the main concern during the 1970s arose from a few studies that were sensationalized in the popular press, such as a short nine-paragraph article that appeared in Newsweek in 1975. (Newsweek eventually apologized for having misrepresented the state of the science in the 1970s.) The author of that article has repudiated the idea that it should be used to deny global warming. Q14: Doesn't water vapour cause 98% of the greenhouse effect? A14: Water vapour is indeed a major greenhouse gas, contributing about 36% to 70% (not 98%) of the total greenhouse effect. But water vapour has a very short atmospheric lifetime (about 10 days), compared with decades to centuries for greenhouse gases like CO2 or nitrous oxide. As a result it is very nearly in a dynamic equilibrium in the atmosphere, which globally maintains a nearly constant relative humidity. In simpler terms, any excess water vapour is removed by rainfall, and any deficit of water vapour is replenished by evaporation from the Earth's surface, which literally has oceans of water. Thus water vapour cannot act as a driver of climate change. Rising temperatures caused by the long-lived greenhouse gases will however allow the atmosphere to hold more vapour. This will lead to an increase in the absolute amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. Since water vapour is itself a greenhouse gas, this is an example of a positive feedback. Thus, whereas water vapour is not a driver of climate change, it amplifies existing trends. See also: Greenhouse gas and Greenhouse effect Q15: Is the fact that other solar system bodies are warming evidence for a common cause (i.e. the sun)? A15: While some solar system bodies show evidence of local or global climate change, there is no evidence for a common cause of warming. A 2007 National Geographic article described the views of Khabibullo Abdusamatov, who claims that the sun is responsible for global warming on both Earth and Mars. Abdussamatov's views have no support in the scientific community, as the second page of the National Geographic article makes clear: "'His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion,' said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that 'the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations.'" There is no reliable source claiming that Jupiter is warming. However, observations of the Red Spot Jr. storm suggest Jupiter could be in a period of global climate change. This is hypothesized to be part of an approximately 70 year global climate cycle, characterized by the relatively rapid forming and subsequent slow erosion and merging of cyclonic and anticyclonic vortices that help transfer heat between Jupiter's poles and equator. The cycle works like this: As the vortices erode, heat exchange is reduced; this makes the poles cool down and the equatorial region heat up; the resulting temperature difference destabilizes the atmosphere, leading to the creation of new vortices. Pluto has an extremely elliptical orbit with a period of about 248 years. Data are sparse, but two data points from 1988 and 2002 indirectly suggest that Pluto warmed between those two dates. Pluto's temperature is heavily influenced by its elliptical orbit – it was closest to the sun in 1989 and has slowly receded since. Because of thermal inertia, it is expected to warm for a while after it passes perihelion (similar to how a sunny day's warmest temperatures happen during the afternoon instead of right at noon). No other mechanism has so far been seriously suggested. Here is a reasonable summary, and this paper discusses how the thermal inertia is provided by sublimation and evaporation of parts of Pluto's atmosphere. A more popular account is here and in Misplaced Pages's own article. See also: Climate of Mars and Extraterrestrial atmosphere Q16: Do scientists support climate change just to get more money? A16: No, Scientists participate in international organizations like the IPCC as part of their normal academic duties. They do not receive any extra compensation beyond possibly for direct expenses. Scientific grants do not usually award any money to a scientist personally, only towards the cost of his or her scientific work. There is not a shortage of useful things that scientists could study if they were not studying global warming. Understanding our climate system better brings benefits independent of global warming. For instance, more accurate weather predictions save a lot of money (on the order of billions of dollars a year), and everyone from insurance agents to farmers wants climate data. Scientists could get paid to study climate even if global warming did not exist. Q17: Doesn't the climate vary even without human activity? A17: It does, but the fact that natural variation occurs does not mean that human-induced change cannot also occur. Climate scientists have extensively studied natural causes of climate change (such as orbital changes, volcanism, and solar variation) and have ruled them out as an explanation for the current temperature increase. Human activity is the cause at the 95 to 99 percent confidence level (see the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report for details). The high level of certainty in this is important to keep in mind to spot mention of natural variation functioning as a distraction. Q18: Should we include the view that climate change will lead to planetary doom or catastrophe? A18: This page is about the science of climate change. It doesn't talk about planetary doom or catastrophe. For a technical explanation, see catastrophic climate change, and for paleoclimatic examples see PETM and great dying. Q19: Is an increase in global temperature of, say, 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) important? A19: Though it may not sound like much, a global temperature rise of 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) is huge in climate terms. For example, the sea level rise it would produce would flood coastal cities around the world, which include most large cities. Earth's climate has varied significantly over geological ages. The question of an "optimal temperature" makes no sense without a clear optimality criterion. Over geological time spans, ecosystems adapt to climate variations. But global climate variations during the development of human civilization (i.e. the past 12,000 years) have been remarkably small. Human civilization is highly adapted to the current stable climate. Agricultural production depends on the proper combination of soil, climate, methods, and seeds. Most large cities are located on the coast, and any significant change in sea level would strongly affect them. Migration of humans and ecosystems is limited by political borders and existing land use. In short, the main problem is not the higher absolute temperature but the massive and unprecedentedly fast change in climate and the related effects on human societies. The IPCC AR6 WG2 report has a detailed discussion of the effects of rapid climate change. Q20: Why are certain proposals to change the article discarded, deleted, or ignored? Who is/was Scibaby? A20: Scibaby is/was a long term abusive sock-master (or coordinated group of sock masters) who has created 1,027 confirmed sock puppets, another 167 suspected socks, and probably many untagged or unrecognized ones. This page lists some recent creations. His modus operandi has changed over time, but includes proposing reasonably worded additions on the talk page that only on close examination turn out to be irrelevant, misinterpreted, or give undue weight to certain aspects. Scibaby is banned, and Scibaby socks are blocked as soon as they are identified. Some editors silently revert his additions, per WP:DENY, while others still assume good faith even for likely socks and engage them. Q21: What about this really interesting recent peer-reviewed paper I read or read about, that says...? A21: There are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers published every month in respected scientific journals such as Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and others. We can't include all of them, but the article does include references to individual papers where there is consensus that they best represent the state of the relevant science. This is in accordance with the "due weight" principle (WP:WEIGHT) of the Neutral point of view policy and the "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" principle (WP:IINFO) of the What Misplaced Pages is not policy. Q22: Why does the article define "climate change" as a recent phenomenon? Hasn't the planet warmed and cooled before? A22: Yes, the planet has warmed and cooled before. However, the term "climate change" without further qualification is widely understood to refer to the recent episode and often explicitly connected with the greenhouse effect. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the term in this most common meaning. The article Climate variability and change deals with the more general concept. Q23: Did the CERN CLOUD experiment prove that climate change is caused not by human activity but by cosmic rays? A23: No. For cosmic rays to be causing global warming, all of the following would have to be true, whereas only the italicized one was tested in the 2011 experiment: Solar magnetic field must be getting stronger The number of cosmic rays reaching Earth must be dropping Cosmic rays must successfully seed clouds, which requires: Cosmic rays must trigger aerosol (liquid droplet) formation, These newly-formed aerosols must grow sufficiently through condensation to form cloud-condensation nuclei (CCN), The CCN must lead to increased cloud formation, and Cloud cover on Earth must be declining. Perhaps the study's lead author, Jasper Kirkby, put it best: "...it actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it's a very important first step." Q24: I read that something can't fix climate change. Is this true? A24: Yes, this is true for all plausible single things including: "electric cars", "planting trees", "low-carbon technology", "renewable energy", "Australia", "capitalism", "the doom & gloom approach", "a Ph.D. in thermodynamics". Note that it is problematic to use the word "fix" regarding climate change, as returning the climate to its pre-industrial state currently appears to be feasible only over a timeframe of thousands of years. Current efforts are instead aimed at mitigating (meaning limiting) climate change. Mitigation is strived for through the combination of many different things. See Climate change mitigation for details. References ^ Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020. ^ "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020. Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help) Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009. Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009. Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009. Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009. "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007. Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467. The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012. "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009. Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017. The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða. "Cold Hard Facts". Tamino. 8 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009. Peterson, T. C.; et al. (2008). "The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus". Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. 89 (9): 1325. Bibcode:2008BAMS...89.1325P. doi:10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1. Gwynne, Peter (28 April 1975). "The Cooling World". Newsweek. p. 64. Verger, Rob (23 May 2014). "Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling". Newsweek. Gwynne, Peter (21 May 2014). "My 1975 'Cooling World' Story Doesn't Make Today's Climate Scientists Wrong". insidescience.org. Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008. Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (page 2)". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008. Marcus, Philip; Shetty, Sushil; Asay-Davis, Xylar (November 2006). Velocities and Temperatures of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the New Red Oval and Implications for Global Climate Change. American Physical Society. Retrieved 9 May 2007. Goudarzi, Sara (4 May 2006). "New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change". Space.com. Retrieved 9 May 2007. Philip, Marcus S. (22 April 2004). "Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter" (PDF). Nature. 428 (6985): 828–831. Retrieved 9 May 2007. Yang, Sarah (21 April 2004). "Researcher predicts global climate change on Jupiter as giant planet's spots disappear". University of California, Berkeley. Retrieved 9 May 2007. Elliot, J. L.; et al. (10 July 2003). "The recent expansion of Pluto's atmosphere". Nature (424): 165–168. doi:10.1038/nature01762.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Foerster, Jim. "What's The Difference Between Private Weather Companies And The National Weather Service?". Forbes. Eilts, Mike (27 November 2018). "The Role of Weather—and Weather Forecasting—in Agriculture". DTN. "What do the CERN experiments tell us about global warming?". Skeptical Science. 2 September 2011. Brumfiel, Geoff (23 August 2011). "Cloud Formation May Be Linked to Cosmic Rays". Scientific American.

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Lede is (deliberately?) misleading

"See also" section

Would you please add global cooling in a "See also" section? I think it's really worth mentioning. Thank you very much :) --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

It is certainly an excellent article. But not particularly relevant here William M. Connolley (talk) 23:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it is related because it is about climate change :) --Mahmudmasri (talk) 23:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

ah, then you want index of climate change articles William M. Connolley (talk) 00:04, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Mahmudmasri, Global Cooling should be mentioned in the article text as a contrast to the Global Warming/Climate Change theories and should be included in the "See also" section. Mytwocents (talk) 04:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

as a contrast to the. Sigh. Go read the article, realise you're wrong, be outraged and complain to no purpose William M. Connolley (talk) 11:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Support. The opposite of Global Warming is Global Cooling; obviously the mirror image article should be referenced. Freedom Fan (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Just for once, please, go and actually *read* the article before commenting William M. Connolley (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Article read. I think a link should be included. Manticore55 (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Global cooling seems to be a favorite with certain bloggers, but I see no reason to reference it in a discussion the scientific aspects of global warming. --TS 08:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

On Neutrality

{Full disclosure: I first read this article about a month ago. My initial reaction was to look for a simpler graph (ie. one line of plotted data) that offered a more thorough perspective on the subject (I later learned there isn't really a 'simple way' to present much of this data). The chart I settled on was developed by a meteorologist and climatologist, but ultimately did not meet the article's standard of reference. Regulars may recall that discussion. I didn't consider it a big deal and I resumed my regular activities on Misplaced Pages.
But something about the article's presentation still nagged me. I came back and read it and reread it, and ultimately realized the scope of the 'controversy' surrounding global warming (as it's presented) is incredibly vague and hardly warrants much discussion (the 'Debate and skepticism' section appears to address 'global warming awareness' more than anything else). At the very least, it didn't seem to be what I would consider controversial. So I took it upon myself to research the subject to see how accurately it was being presented.

As it stands now, I've spent 82 hours of the past two weeks researching the material and the state of this article - reviewing past revisions, talk page archives, content forks, and relevant sources cited within. In truth, the deeper I found the rabbit hole went, the more I caught myself wishing I'd never even started the process to begin with (what with ignorance being bliss and all). :-)
I was two days into this process when the CRU email fiasco hit its stride in the news. Initially, I didn't consider it that significant, but like others, with time to digest it, I came to realize the magnitude of what it represented.
I'm not explaining all this to create some illusion of authority on the matter. I just want it to be understood that this was not a 'flyby' assessment intended to raise the hackles of those who have contributed heavily to the maintenance and upkeep of such a controversial article. Reviewing it was not a matter I took lightly. I consider my efforts in contributing to Misplaced Pages as not just a reflection of my own integrity, but the integrity of the the project as a whole. This represents the most time I've dedicated to a single subject here and when it's resolved, I'll be glad to get back to my regular, scatterbrained contributions elsewhere.}

All that being said, here is the summary of why I've concluded the article fails to meet Misplaced Pages's standard for neutrality:

If it's resolved that we intend to address the subject on the basis of current social perception (ie. the circumstances of the most recent warming trend as opposed to any period of warming in the climate record), then the entire scope of that perception must be addressed, including the dissenting view on AGW (anthropogenic global warming). The degree to which humans affect world climate is still under intense scrutiny and a matter of great debate in both the public sphere as well as scientific and scholarly circles. We have an intellectual responsibility to make this clear in the article. Yet even in the 'Debate and skepticism' section, mention is limited to a single sentence listing a few notable skeptics.

That relentless sockpuppetry has been employed in an effort to inject dissenting perspective into this article is certainly reprehensible. But it does not automatically invalidate the perspective or justify its ommission - content's veracity should not be judged solely on the methods employed in contributing it. Even good faith contributions to the article that shed light on the dissenting perspective are summarily dismissed (or quickly relegated to a POV fork) by finding some questionable aspect about the source so a policy for exclusion can be applied. But as questionable aspects of the currently accepted sources have come to light, this has become a bit of a double standard (ie. demanding 'peer-reviewed' sources when the possibility of subversion and manipulation of those sources has become evident). Nor is undue weight a valid reason for exclusion, as no weight whatsoever is given to the fact that there has been and still is heated debate over many assertions presented here.

In the lead, the IPCC's conclusions are issued with absolutely no mention of legitimate, significant concerns of reputable scientists and scholars regarding its data and assessments. While the IPCC report is important (as it represents work from a large segment of the climate change community), its assertions as to the degree of human influence on global climate should not be the only ones presented. It's important to remember that the IPCC is a heavily politicized force with a goal in presenting scientific data to provoke or influence action. It now exists to 'build up and disseminate greater knowledge about man-made climate change, and to lay the foundations for the measures that are needed to counteract such change'. Essentially, its purpose has become something more than simple scientific understanding (it could even be argued that it has an agenda). That does not mean the underlying data is necessarily wrong. Nor does it mean that its cause is not worthy. It simply warns us not to be so quick about addressing the subject through the filter of its conclusions alone. Legitimate concerns about its transparency and lack of peer-review have been voiced for years and the recent email fiasco simply serves to reinforce validity of that concern. The reality is that the science of global warming is still in its first generation of analysis. Addressing only the conclusions of a highly politicized report, regardless of its scope, simply cannot lend to neutral treatment of the subject.

A couple potential solutions that would help in resolving this:
1) Adjusting the lead to include a summary of the debate regarding anthropogenic influence on global warming with a corresponding passage appended to the Debate and skepticism section that goes into greater detail (and a serious review of the existing material in that section). Additionally, I would recommend inclusion of information relating to how the fossil fuel industry has conspired to manipulate debate on the matter as well.
or,
2) Removal of all 'conclusions' (and debate) from the lead. Including theories and assertions (consensus and otherwise) further along in the article would be reasonable, but should not be the lens through which we wholly assess (or summarize) it.
or,
3) Simply presenting the current state of global warming, explaining the science behind climate shifts and human interaction with them, and relegating all assertions, conclusions, debates, and criticism regarding AGW to related pages and/or a single page (ie. Anthropogenic Global Warming). This would be beneficial in reducing the number of 'Politics of global warming', 'Global Warming Controversy', 'Scientific opinion on climate change'-type articles on wikipedia (and there's alot of them) as they can all be summarized and addressed in a single article devoted to the majority opinion.

Of course, the latter two options would result in a sweeping restructure of the article and, given human inclination to avoid change, I defer to the first option as the most reasonable means of resolving the issue. Unfortunately, as mentioned earlier, even good faith efforts to incorporate critical evaluations of the IPCC conclusions have been summarily dismissed and frequently degenerate into edit-warring. Blithe disregard for a subject's reality deals as heavy a blow to Misplaced Pages's integrity as an article's manipulation by sockpuppets.

In conclusion, looking at the article overall, it's almost as if the maintenance has been overseen by editors so emotionally invested in remaining vigilant against persistent sockpuppetery that they lost objectivity. Ironically, as the puppetmaster tried harder and harder to incorporate his material, the article drifted further and further from his objective. It has left us in a situation where such a concerted effort has been made to actively suppress and sterilize any matter of dissent that the article has accumulated a half dozen POV forks and retained only a bunch of nonsensical, long-winded statements that are completely unrelated to any of the actual controversy or skepticism.

Input from uninvolved editors, especially those who are indifferent about the causes or mitigation of global warming, would be greatly appreciated (although the homework required for such an editor to properly assess the situation is pretty obscene).
--K10wnsta (talk) 03:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm in favor of option one. However, I sincerely doubt that this is going to go very far on the basis that the IPCC is right because it's the IPCC. Macai (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Well said, K10wnsta, and hallelujah! I concur with your post from beginning to end. Let's bury the strawman of past sockpuppetry and make this a complete, NPOV article. Mytwocents (talk) 04:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

You know, I think most established editors are still scarred by Scibaby. You guys didn't have to deal with 473 confirmed socks and a standing 132 suspected. This isn't amendable with empty words, actions that lead to full-protection speaks greater. I'm not against the proposal, I just want to see it. Essays like this are always eloquent. What happens next is more important. The lead reflects the body, so start with "Debate and skepticism". The last paragraph was put together by Cla68 after a proposal on polling towards the end of the thread. Make it be better, make it be sourced, and make it be well-written. ChyranandChloe (talk) 05:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

If it's resolved that we intend to address the subject on the basis of current social perception - no, it isn't so resolved. I fear that your exteensive study has not resulted in much understanding.

It's important to remember that the IPCC is a heavily politicized force is just one of your many mistakes.

here is the summary of why I've concluded - it isn't clear why we should be so interested in your opinion. Everyone can comment, of course, but not everyone can post a vast long text as you've just done and expect people to read it all. I have a suggestion fro you: help keep the GW and related articles sane. Revert socks, don't support them on talk, and generally be helpful. Do this for a month or two, *then* come back with your opinions William M. Connolley (talk) 11:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Correction: It has been resolved that all significant views be represented fairly by Misplaced Pages. The public and mainstream media perception happens to be a significant perspective, and excluding it from the main article constitutes POV content forking.
2. I don't see how it's a mistake to say that the IPCC is a politicized force, since it admits to suggesting political policies.
3. Being unestablished does not rob one's arguments of merit. Macai (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

If it's resolved that we intend to address the subject on the basis of current social perception...
I based that statement on past discussion, the Terminology Page, and, primarily, the first sentence of the article ("increase in the average temperature ... since the mid-20th century ").

And what has that to do with current social perception? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's important to remember that the IPCC is a heavily politicized force...
You'll have to elaborate on why I was mistaken in characterizing it as 'heavily politicized', as I don't see how that's inaccurate. It was created by political process and engages and influences every significant political entity on the planet.

I assert that the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that. Its role and activities are essentially scientific William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

here is the summary of why I've concluded...
I probably could have worded that better (it was sort of a remnant from an earlier draft of the post that I left for transition).
Of course no one is obligated to be interested in my opinion. But opinions are the driving force of how issues are addressed and things get done on Misplaced Pages. I meticulously explained the circumstances of my own and you are welcome to agree or disagree with it...or even disregard it completely.
--K10wnsta (talk) 00:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

OK William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

K10wnsta, thank you for all the time and thought you have put into improving this deeply flawed, disturbingly biased article. I concur with your approach to cleaning it up to conform with the high standards for neutrality at Misplaced Pages. Freedom Fan (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I think what would need to be established is that the GW deniers constitute something larger than a fringe opinion, otherwise the above proposal are undue weight. JPotter (talk) 23:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

There has been no change in the official position of any scientific body: AGW is real and denial ot 'scepticism' of that is utterly fringe. UK PM Gordon Brown has been reiterating this again today, using words like 'flat-earther' etc for them. Nothing to discuss when all major scientific bodies and world leaders agree. --Nigelj (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

AGW is a theory. A popular theory, with a lot of science behind it (good AND bad), but it is still a theory. Sceptics (or Flat-Earthers/Denialists, if your propaganda inclinations lie in that direction) are not fringe. A fringe theory is only, by definition, supported or acknowledged by a small percentage of the population. While I personally prefer to stay on the fence on this issue, it bothers me that people on both sides of the arguement prefer slandering their opponents to meaningful scientific debate. From what I've read of the emails, they could be taken either way. This article does side with the AGW theory, and quite blatently. K10wnsta's proposal is a solid one. Option one would still leave the article on the pro-AGW side (which, for the forseeable future, it belongs), but would correctly note that there is a sizable opposition to this theory. -Tainted Conformity 16:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

If I may interject. Yes, there is sizable opposition to the theory, in the general public. However, there is almost no opposition in the scientific community, and I think that's what really matters here. Timmeh 16:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

And when this article is called "The Science of Global Warming" I would agree with you, but it is not. Furthermore, what many of those who are vigilant on such subjects often fail to understand is the Streisand effect that their suppression causes. After reading the extraordinary efforts that were made to alter this article, I now understand the hypersensitivity even in the comments page; but nevertheless K10wnsta's points are incredibly valid. I do not like to justify or 'reward' hacked emails any more than I want to justify or reward sock puppet masters, but on the other hand, I do not want to empower them either by justifying their abhorrent acts (and speaking of someone who has actually broken the law or wikipedia policy is not 'bad faith') by going to the opposite extreme on the article. This NOT about Global warming (science). Science should be the most prominent feature of the article. It should have the dominant voice and should contextualize all other criticism in its wording, but quite frankly, there is a lot more in terms of criticism that should be mentioned, if only to repudiate with science rather than simply pretend it does not exist. Manticore55 (talk) 16:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

So what is the opposite of 'science'? 'Blind faith'? 'Religious dogma'? 'Uninformed speculation'? 'Mass hysteria'? 'Childish fantasy'? 'Conspiracy theory'? Do you propose that in every WP article that deals with something with a solid scientific basis, we must give equal weight to each of these? Why don't you start with Astronomy, Electricity, and Plate tectonics, and see how far you get there before focussing on this article? I know why - because the conclusions of those scientific theories suit our purposes: they don't threaten our cosy, greedy, destructive, poluting lifestyles. Non-scientific, illogical, uneducated thought processes do not get equal weight in our modern world, and proposing that they should is, frankly, disingenuous. --Nigelj (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It would be disingenuous to pretend that the only opposition is from non-scientific, illogical, uneducated thought processes. It's lines of thought like that from both sides of the debate that bother me. And the only reason that Global Warming/Climate Change is such a heated issue in the first place is because of the affect it has on ordinary life, which things like astronomy, electricity, and plate tectonics lack. There's people on both sides who want their side to be right for selfish reasons. I'm not going to pretend that there's not a lot of falsified data floating around on the skeptics' side, but that doesn't change the fact that the same thing happens (although not in such quantities) on the pro-AGW side. I agree that we should be trying to reduce our impact on the earth as much as possible. However, that doesn't mean that the earth is necessarily going to die if we don't. And frankly, even if AGW is right, and the earth heats up past human inhabitability, the earth will survive, just without us. ;P -Tainted Conformity 19:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

This is not a 'debate' between two alternative sides. The two sides are those who understand the severity and urgency of the problem and those who don't. As you say, if we don't act within narrow bounds, the earth will survive without us. There is no doubt about that. There is no other side to the argument, other than that some people don't get it. What 'selfish' reasons could scientists and world leaders possibly have for propagating that harsh reality, other than that it is necessary to do so? --Nigelj (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

<- While I'm sure that there are plenty of the scientists are acting out of a sense of duty, you can't deny that there are people who are on the AGW side for the cash they can milk out of it. World leaders haven't exactly been known for their selflessness, either. And there are scientists who are against AGW. But that's not really important. What is important is that when scientists disagree, they should provide their research that backs up their theories. Regardless of why they do their research, as long as they do it right, their research should benifit finding the final answer. As recent developments may or may not implicate the higher ups on the AGW side of cooking their data, the playing field may have leveled out a bit on whose research is or isn't viable. And this page only seems to display the pro-side research. At the least, it should have a part that discusses what dissenting scientists say, and what the pro side has done to debunk it. If the pro side's rebuttle is stronger, then it will only serve to strengthen their arguement. -Tainted Conformity 00:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

This is all well and good, but I have yet to see any evidence that global warming deniers constitute more than a fringe opinion among scientists. Global warming is a scientific issue and science articles need to be based on the weight the scientific community assigns a position. By looking at the percentage of experts in a given field who support a given theory shows if its mainstream, contentious or fringe. Global warming is as main stream as the theory of evolution. JPotter (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a page that is is not linked on the GW page; List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (a overly long, contrived title IMO) It lists quite a few individual scientists. I don't think they can all be nuts. They have a minority opinion, but they deserve to be mentioned in the GW article. Mytwocents (talk) 02:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The page is already linked (under "global warming skeptics") and the important ones listed, last paragraph "Debate and Skepticism". Please be more careful and check your facts Mytwocents. I remember Cla68 and I worked on it in July after finishing the paragraph on polling (it's at the end ot the linked thread). It wasn't our best, it could be better. ChyranandChloe (talk) 05:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's not forget that the article has a Debate and skepticism section for a reason. This is not purely a scientific issue; it's also a critical public policy issue. It's fully as important to understand the public policy debate as it is to understand the scientific consensus. Also, the possibility of scientific misconduct (which destroying information to avoid a freedom of information request and manipulating the peer review process certainly would be, if those allegations were to prove true) are serious issues in their own right, regardless of whether or not they undermine the broader scientific consensus. EastTN (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That's why we have a debate and skepticism section with links to relevant subarticles. — DroEsperanto (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The Debate and skepticism section should summarize the content of those subarticles. While there's a limit to how much detail we should include, the policy debate is just as much within the scope of the article as is the Economic impact - after all, the article has a "section with links to relevant subarticles" on that topic as well (as it does for Feedback and pretty much every thing else in the article). EastTN (talk) 02:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Section break

<I think public policy needs to be addresed. The news media, Al Gore and other advocates of global warming policy, the Copenhagen Summit etc. need to be mentioned. Here's a list of the latest Drudge Report headlines;

COPENHAGEN CLIMATE SUMMIT: 1,200 LIMOS, 140 PRIVATE PLANES...

Spews More CO2 than 60 Countries do in Entire Year -- COMBINED...

Saudi Arabia calls for 'climategate' investigation...

UN film shows 'children of the future facing an apocalypse'...

Gore turns to poetry: 'The shepherd cries, the hour of choosing has arrived'...

Major winter storm to wallop central USA...

There is a world outside the strict world of acedemia, that is affected, and plays a part in the story of Global Warming ,that should be reflected in the article. I don't that as fringe. Mytwocents (talk) 17:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Those headlines aren't about a globe, warming; they're about politics and a conference and weather. We can't put all of that into one article. There're articles for each of those things. Give it another 3 years and there will be nothing left on earth that hasn't been affected by Global Warming... so at that point we can delete the rest of WP and just keep everything in this one article?! (Overdoing it to make a point, but you get the drift? That's what 'links to relevant subarticles' are for) --Nigelj (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Not to be snippy, but where's the proposal? Complaining about what you believe "needs to be addressed" isn't the same as having (1) the replacement text, (2) the location, (3) the source, and (4) the objective reasons of what you want and how to amended the article. This discussion falls under WP:NOTFORUM. I've offered you twice, with encouragement, that the last paragraph could be better. Most of the sources in "Debate and Skepticism" are news sources, this article isn't academia-only, and that's twice Mytwocents. EastTN, yes, the policy debate is important; if this is still about Climategate though: (1) the policymakers won't be meeting for a week, and (2) in terms of public opinion less than half of Americans are following this "somewhat closely" (overall opinions are still roughly half as it were before) and this is certainly not something more notable than how opinions differ world-wide. ChyranandChloe (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What I have noticed monitoring this discussion is that whenever the issue of neutrality is raised, time and time again, the most prominent editors of this article insist on adding any information to the "controversy" article, rather than addressing the issues on this one. This is not good practice and leaves a very unbalanced and somewhat misleading article.--Baina90 (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

ChryanandChloe, I don't want to turn this article into a treatise on "Climategate." I am convinced, though, that the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident has already become a notable part of the debate. There are more than enough articles in newspapers of record from more than one country to demonstrate that much. The notability comes on a couple of levels. First is the nature of the allegations, which deal with things that (if true) would constitute serious scientific misconduct. Most significantly, perhaps, efforts to destroy information subject to a freedom of information request and efforts to manipulate the peer review process. Second, the extent to which it has affected the politics and public discussion. We can look to Australia and to the role it's playing in the debate around the Copenhagen conference.

Beyond that, we're already seeing thoughtful analysis of how the incident is playing out in the public forum:

• Mike Hulme, "The Science and Politics of Climate Change," The Wall Street Journal Online, December 4, 2009
• Bryan Walsh, "As Climate Summit Nears, Skeptics Gain Traction," Time, December 2, 2009
• Peter Kelemen, "What East Anglia's E-mails Really Tell Us About Climate Change," Popular Mechanics, December 1, 2009
• Peter N. Spotts, "‘Climategate’: leaked emails push scientists toward transparency," Christian Science Monitor, December 4, 2009
• David A. Fahrenthold and Juliet Eilperin, "In e-mails, science of warming is hot debate," The Washington Post, December 5, 2009

Granted, all that should show up in the Debate and skepticism should be a brief summary, and that summary should not be long enough to overwhelm the section. How it should be summarized, and just how long that summary should be, are things we should talk about. But the idea that this particular incident is not notable is becoming less and less plausible. EastTN (talk) 16:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. This is an article covering the entire, generalized topic of global warming. The CRU incident is a microscopic piece of WP:RECENTISM about data theft that really has no place in this article. The number of sources is irrelevant, compared to the import of those sources with respect to global warming in general. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Data theft? Yes, that's part of it - but the consequences of that data theft are being played out politically across multiple continents. The "import" we're discussing is not the import to the science of global warming, but to the public policy debate on global warming. The sources we have already demonstrate that.

Let's try to clarify the issue a bit. I'm convinced that the sources we have demonstrate that this is already a notable part of the debate. You disagree. What would it take for you to conclude that the event is notable? As a hypothetical, let's say that when the Copenhagen conference ends, the results are generally recognized as disappointing - and that the CRU email incident is reported as a contributing cause by more than one newspaper of record. Would you then consider the incident to be notable relative to the public policy debate? That would seem to me to pretty much nail it to the wall. If that would not be enough, then what else would you be looking for? EastTN (talk) 16:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I would be looking for irrefutable evidence from reliable sources that the incident had a direct, negative impact on global warming-related international legislation - with statements from several world leaders (or their representatives) that this was indeed the case. Or similar proof that the incident somehow shifted the overwhelming scientific consensus for global warming. If that was the case (and it would certainly be several weeks or months before something like that would become evident), then one could conceive of introducing a carefully weighted sentence or two of summary. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That strikes me as an unreasonably high standard. Newspapers of record are generally considered reliable sources. If, for instance, the The New York Times and the The Washington Post both report the same thing, I can't think of another setting in Misplaced Pages where we would argue that it isn't adequately sourced - particularly when we're dealing with political issues. (There can be other considerations, other points of view, and additional information may be uncovered latter, but the base reporting would be well sourced.)

It seems to me that we're running a real risk of setting a higher standard for this particular issue than we do for anything else, just because we don't like it.EastTN (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a top-level article, that summarized quite a large number of sub-articles. Focus on the sub-articles first. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This is also a different kind of article to the ones that rely on 'newspapers of record' for their facts. Newspapers are the best source for facts like "Person A said X" and "Person B has been convicted of crime Y". You do not find newspapers used as sources for mathematical articles or for other science topics. It is well known that if a newspaper reporter strays into these territories, they are likely to over-simplify at best and usually to make technical mistakes as well. This is because it is newspapermen's (and -women's) job to sell papers, and proprietors know the public cannot be bothered with tiresome technical detail, so they don't hire people who understand or care about science, maths and statistics. They hire people who can tell a good, gripping, emotive story. In a complex, scientific and mathematical subject such a story, in itself, does not register on the encyclopedic notability scale at all, unless supported by all the real facts and theory. And we don't have room *here* to explain all the facts and theory behind some of the nonsense in the media at the moment. That's what the sub-articles are for, as I said more briskly above. And there are plenty of them. --Nigelj (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Kim, that would be great advice, except that we're having the same discussion with every article other than the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident one. I'd be much more comfortable if we were working on the first level summary in the Global warming controversy article and discussing how to incorporate it into the Global warming template. But, there appears to be an unwillingness to consider summarizing this information anywhere except in the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident article, despite a growing number of sources demonstrating its impact on the public debate. Statements are made that it's not notable, fringe, ephemeral "news," out of scope or irrelevant; but those arguments are made without any reference to sources that document the effect it's having on the public debate.

Scjessey's response is a good example. What he in essence said was that if more than one newspaper of record reported that the CRU incident was a contributing factor behind a failure of the Copenhagen summit to produce the results we're all hoping for, that would still not be notable. Please step back for a moment. Does that really strike you as right? If The New York Times and The Washington Post were both to say that this incident helped bring down the Copenhagen talks, we would still be willing to say that it's not an important enough part of the policy debate to mention? If so, I don't see how we could still claim to be basing our decisions on the available sources. EastTN (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You have an interesting definition of how we can determine "impact", this "crisis"/"scandal"/whatever is less than a month old. All you can determine is how it's impact is right now, with only speculation as to whether it will have an lasting impact. Impacts are determined after the event, not during or before. You are arguing that a news flare is more important than existing long-time conflicts, in fact so much that it should be summarized in the top-level article. That is not how an encyclopedia works (nor even how the world works). WP is not the news, and we do not have a deadline. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that it is per se impossible to determine whether an event is significant without the passage of a great deal of time. That argument seems flawed to me. To take an extreme example, we knew the Virginia Tech shooting was significant the first day it was reported. This is, of course, not anything like the Virginia Tech shootings. But I would argue that we can often tell if an incident is significant based on it's nature and the early reporting - for instance, in the political realm, we knew the Monica Lewinski incident was going to be an important part of the history of the Clinton administration well before the whole impeachment thing played out. Again, I would argue that the sources already show that this incident is significant for the debate. I would also argue that we're past the initial "news flare" - this has been playing our for a couple of weeks now, and shows no evidence of going away. Beyond that, what disturbs me is this whole discussion seems to be driven not by what the sources say about the political significance of the incident, but what we would like the significance to be ("none"). If we dig into reliable sources, such as the Times and the Post, and find that they tell us that it's too early to tell if this is going to affect the debate or not, then fine - we should wait. That's not what I'm seeing, though. It's one thing to say it's non-notable or premature based on reliable sources (or lack thereof) - it's an entirely different thing to ignore something because we don't like it or hope it will just go away.EastTN (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Nigelj, we're not talking about using newspapers of record to establish a mathematical equation or demonstrate the validity of a scientific theory - we're talking about using them to establish what's happening in a public policy debate. They are very good at that, and are routinely used in other articles dealing with political and public policy issues. The Debate and skepticism section demonstrates that this is within the scope of the current article. We have multiple reliable sources showing that the incident is already having a material impact on the shape of the public debate. None of the discussion so far really engages with those sources. It makes no sense to say that The New York Times and The Washington Post aren't reliable sources for this article simply because it's scientific article, when we're talking about using them to source non-scientific aspects of the policy debate. EastTN (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you're trying to use newspaper reports to 'demonstrate the invalidity of a scientific theory', I think. I liked your edit comment from half an hour ago, " We're getting the same arguments everywhere, and they're becoming more and more threadbare". You and a few others seem to feel that you have a limited time-window to get the maximum mileage from this e-mail hack. I guess the right-wing press and the denialist bloggers have put that feeling together for some. The science has not changed. No new data has been revealed, no new theories proposed, the glaciers are still melting and world leaders are still working on a solution at Copenhagen. Try reading this, and calm down for a while, see what happens. --Nigelj (talk) 20:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"No, you're trying to use newspaper reports to 'demonstrate the invalidity of a scientific theory', I think." You're mistaken. Please read what I've actually said. I never claimed that the hacked e-mails invalidated any of the science. What I have said is that they have been used to allege certain behavior that, if true, would constitute serious violations of scientific ethics, and that they have had a notable effect on the public debate over global warming. That much, I believe, is easily demonstrated by reliable sources. At least one leading climate scientist has had to temporarily step down. It has contributed to a political shift on the issue in Australia. Saudi Arabia is using it as one of their arguments in Copenhagen. CRU is moving to release data that has previously been withheld. If I had to summarize the sources in a nutshell, the consensus seems to be that the new information has not undermined the overall conclusions on climate change, it does suggest that there may have been some serious misbehavior by specific scientists, and it has heightened the political debate on the issue:

• Mike Hulme, "The Science and Politics of Climate Change," The Wall Street Journal Online, December 4, 2009
• Bryan Walsh, "As Climate Summit Nears, Skeptics Gain Traction," Time, December 2, 2009
• Peter Kelemen, "What East Anglia's E-mails Really Tell Us About Climate Change," Popular Mechanics, December 1, 2009
• Peter N. Spotts, "‘Climategate’: leaked emails push scientists toward transparency," Christian Science Monitor, December 4, 2009
• David A. Fahrenthold and Juliet Eilperin, "In e-mails, science of warming is hot debate," The Washington Post, December 5, 2009

That's all open to debate, of course. But in debating it, let's actually engage the sources and not just blow it off because we don't like it, or because we naively think that the scientific facts are all that matter.EastTN (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Using newspaper coverage to argue for the modification of how an encyclopedia covers the science seems so misconceived to me that it's hard to take seriously. --TS 21:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow...well, wow. here at Misplaced Pages, we do use newspapers as sources for articles, on a wide variety of topics, and with great frequency. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've never argued for that. What I have argued for is using newspapers of record as reliable sources for how the incident is playing out in the political and public policy debates. EastTN (talk) 21:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The incident has had little to no effect on global warming policy, and the only discernible political impact is that it has given Jim Inhofe more ammunition to misrepresent reality. It won't come to anything. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That would be nice. What's your source? Did you consider the Time article "As Climate Summit Nears, Skeptics Gain Traction"? Or perhaps the Christian Science Monitor article "‘Climategate’: leaked emails push scientists toward transparency"? Or perhaps the WP article "In e-mails, science of warming is hot debate"? Or perhaps the Wall Street Journal article "The Science and Politics of Climate Change"? EastTN (talk) 22:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with EastTN. it seems excessive to oppose such well-sourced material so inflexibly and absolutely. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 22:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, EasTN, for the sources. Shut up, you don't have the replacement text and the location. This is a broad topic. Specific incidences owe little significance unless described in context. The problem therefore, isn't verifiability, it's taking the next step stating this is how to to put "...the proposed change..." in the article. Of course, this assumes you have a good summary prepared. Under WP:NOTFORUM, opinions, however right, isn't getting us anywhere. Get the proposal going, and we'll judge it on its own merits. If you need help, I don't mind you asking on my user talk. ChyranandChloe (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's be civil. I am still not convinced that that coverage constitutes evidence of significant weight to be included in this top-level article. The sources you cite are enough to establish that the incidence has enough coverage to be notable enough for its own article, true, but they can't establish any lasting significance because 1)it has yet to lead to any colossal upheaval or policy shift and 2)it is just too soon. All other reasons you've (collectively) cited to demonstrate that a description of global warming would be incomplete without this incident's mention are pure speculation and OR ("it undermines the reliability of the IPCC, which AGW theory is based on, and therefore is important" or the Monica Lewinsky analogy, "we can just tell it's important"). — DroEsperanto (talk) 01:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Dro, just to clarify, I haven't made (or, at least have not intended to make) the argument that "it undermines the reliability of the IPCC, which AGW theory is based on, and therefore is important." As for Lewinsky, the political coverage early on made it clear that it was having an impact on the Clinton presidency. What I intended to suggest by that analogy is that for many events a fairly early examination of leading newspapers can demonstrate whether an event is significant for the public debate. Nothing further was intended. EastTN (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's a list of the latest Drudge Report headlines... No thanks William M. Connolley (talk) 08:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't, as a matter of fact, report on scientific matters using newspapers as sources. We're never going to do that. No good encyclopedia ever has, or ever will, do so. --TS 08:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't, as a matter of fact, report on scientific matters using newspapers as sources. We're never going to do that. No good encyclopedia ever has, or ever will, do so.

hmmm. ok. well, this article already uses USA Today, the Guardian, Newsweek and other similar periodicals as sources, among others. so I think this is an issue where we can all try to show some flexibility.

I think you mean that we don't report on actual SCIENCE using newspapers; if there is a legitimate news EVENT which relates to a scientific MATTER, such as a political or regulatory ruling, then we would use newspapers.

I don't think it's helpful to outline some blanket rule which eliminates a whole set of sources. There are many Misplaced Pages entries on science which do use newspapers as sources; this entry already does so as well. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We are reporting on the very current news related to global warming, in Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident, United Nations Climate Change Conference 2009 and Copenhagen treaty, to name but three sub-articles. What we don't do is alter the top-level explanations of the science (and the notable controversy that went into the science) here, as if this was a current affairs article. I have repeatedly said, we cannot cover all this complex ephemera in just one huge article, please join in and contribute to the relevant sub-articles, if you feel they are lacking in notable coverage. --Nigelj (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Another section break

ChyranandChloe, I apologize if I've annoyed you - that was not my intent. My specific suggestion would be to add a short paragraph towards the end of the Debate and skepticism section that briefly states what the incident is, links to the main article on it, and briefly summarizes what the best sources we can find have to say about its impact on the debate so far.

More generally, what I was hoping to get was an agreement in principle that the issue was within the scope of the article, and start a useful discussion of what the sources had to say about it. I must say that I do strongly disagree with the idea that leading newspapers such as the NYT and WP categorically fail as reliable sources - if nothing else, that seems to eliminate any objective common ground for determining when something has had an impact on the political debate (or, at least eliminate it until the issue shows up in Political Science theses ten years later).EastTN (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, newsources are apparently acceptable, if you go to the said section (Debate and Skepticism), you will see the references are newsources. The problem lies in the fact that you're asking editors here to summarize the sources for you, which serious isn't smart. It's a bad analogy, sorry, but I think I can equate it to begging. And the editors here are just shooing you off. I'll comment on your talk. Don't worry. ChyranandChloe (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

ChyranandChloe, thank you. I may have handled this poorly. I'm more than willing to summarize the sources - what I really wanted was agreement in principle that we could begin discussing the issue based on sources like those. Anyway, given where everyone is at, I may let it sit for now. I do appreciate your understanding and advice. EastTN (talk) 15:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Another response to "On Neutrality"

I do not believe that there is any chance of neutrality per wikipedia definitions of neutrality in THIS article. Misplaced Pages rules do not exactly apply here.

Years ago, I came here without any specific agenda but just to improve the article if possible. I had no leaning one way or the other but I noticed that the definition in the first paragraph was (at least at that time) novel and unsupported by references. So I searched for references that defined the term "Global Warming" and suggested a summary that incorporated the vast bulk of those fully reliable sources' definitions. This was rejected despite wikipedia standards by a cadre editors who stand guard over the article. I was viewed as an enemy, insulted, called names and slandered.

And notice now the responses to requests for neutrality. For example, this very definition that I discussed, which (at least at the time that I researched it, was novel to wikipedia alone) is used as a defense of the content of the article: "I based that statement on ... primarily, the first sentence of the article ("increase in the average temperature ... since the mid-20th century ")" (Now I understand the resistance I got at the time, though it baffled me then).

Here is another perspective of an editor rejecting the wikipedia standards of neutrality: "This is not a 'debate' between two alternative sides. The two sides are those who understand the severity and urgency of the problem and those who don't." These are editors who are ignoring wikipedia standards of neutrality because they believe the issue is just too important. I can understand that sentiment... but it is not wikipedia standards.

And another: "Using newspaper coverage to argue for the modification of how an encyclopedia covers the science seems so misconceived to me that it's hard to take seriously. ... We don't, as a matter of fact, report on scientific matters using newspapers as sources. We're never going to do that." Notice... they will NEVER do that. Once again, wikipedia standards are considered ridiculous for this article and should be abandoned.

The protectors of this article find it impossible to imagine that if someone disagrees with their perspective, they are not somehow evil and need to be squelched. Good luck to anyone who tries to object. You will fail and you will find that it has nothing to do with wikipedia standards of neutrality. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

In case there is some question about my intent here, let me be clear. The original editor talked about having spent a very long time reviewing the information and having some issues. This was EXACTLY the situation I had. I spent hours and hours in review and went entirely by the rules of wikipedia. To no avail. I do not want this person or others to spend a great deal of time (or even get into warring) on this article .. when in the end nothing will come of it. My point is that you should really check with the protectors of the article first on anything you want to do, otherwise you are wasting your time and should not bother with this article. There are supposed to be 10 million articles on wikipedia and arguing with the protectors here on this one is just a waste of your time. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:01, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Semi please

This thing is supposed to be permanently semi, can someone please fix? William M. Connolley (talk) 08:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I favor full protection right now. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Is There Any Chance of Getting Some Balance in the Global Warming Article?

I have tried to put a little balance in the first paragraph of the Global Warming article. Anyone reading this would be left with the impression that AGW is a more solid scientific theory than Newton's Laws of Motion. I had added the following:

"However, a number of highly respected scientists dispute the consensus view. Recently, leaked emails reveal that the leading Global Warming scientists, at the Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia and elsewhere, have been concealing or altering the raw data, which shows the world has been cooling for the past decade. These Global Warming scientists have admitted in their emails, that none of the climate models can account for this lack of warming in the real world."

Not unsuprisingly, it was deleted a minute later. I note that despite the recent startling revelations of Climategate, this has completely failed to find any mention in the article. This strongly indicates censorship - since I am sure many editors must have tried to write about this highly relevant information.

I have asked for advice on how the editors controlling the article would recommend I rewrite these facts so that they wouldn't object to their inclusion. I received the following reply:

Roughly, the only things that are correct is the name of the university, and that emails have been leaked. The rest is somewhere between obviously wrong and egregiously wrong, with a bit of WP:PEACOCK thrown in for good measure. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please feel free to make any suggestions regarding balancing the first paragraph, so that the fact that many scientists dispute the AGW theory is mentioned. - Brittainia (talk) 12:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this a bit like complaining that the article on Elvis Prestley doesn't have a current news section on recent sightings?--BozMo talk 13:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

To me it appears rather like requesting that the statement "1+gasoline>chicken" is kept and improved in Algebra. Sure, some of the symbols match the domain, but there is nothing useful to rescue. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I've talked with some of my climatologist friends and their POV is that the media are making a huge fuzz about nothing new. The main point is that the data the IPCC used were always publicly available. Many climatologists were therefore perfectly aware that some of the IPCC's conclusions weren't supported by the data, and they have been saying so for years. The media and general public were simply not interested or receptive adn mistook them for climate scepticists. Woodwalker (talk) 12:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Edit considerations

• Because I don't have the time or inclination to explain this myself, I recommend you read this or this, which will help you understand why your edit was reverted. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Brittania; people here don't care if there are a notable number of editors holding an editing philosophy in opposition to their own. The email story was a major world headline which appeared in every single major news outlet. However, people here feel that if an editing proposal can be considered even minutely flawed or marginal, they can simply strike it out. in other words, no compromise is actually needed with those holding differing views on editing. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe there are a lot of contributors that confuse encyclopaedic relevancy with relevancy in a particular article. I'm not taking any sides here myself, just trying to show where I think the misunderstanding is. Woodwalker (talk) 16:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We base everything in this article on the scientific perspecitve as reported in peer reviewed journals. Sm8900 had tried to change this consensus but he was unsuccessful. His Armada never made it to this article :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, CountIblis, thanks so much for showing how dedicated you are to keeping things constructive. and thanks for confirming my assertion that people here have no interest in legitimately discussing other people's views other editors' opinions on how to approach and edit this article, but rather would like to escalate this to an editing conflict as much as possible.

dude, bringing up editing disputes from TWO YEARS ago is really not cool. Please try to show some better constructiveness. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Steve I think we are interested in improving the article here. Legitimately discussing other people's views is perhaps better not done here if there is no relevance to the article. --BozMo talk 16:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry, I want to clarify; are you saying that in regards to CountIblis's comment or my own? I am truly asking this. If you were referring to mine, I was simply replying to CountIblis comment about my personal conduct; is that not appropriate? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh wait, now I understand. I meant other people's views on editing this article. Is that a clearer phrasing? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussions dating back from that time are worth reading. It was exactly at that time that the consensus that exists today on this page took shape. At that time there were a lot more sceptics editing this article, so you had a lot of vigorous arguments. In the end these discussions led to the consensus view that news reports are generally not suitable for this article. Count Iblis (talk) 16:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah. then can you please tell me why the article already uses several news reports as sources right now, including USA TOday, newsweek, guardian, etc? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

(copied from above*) We are reporting on the very current news related to global warming, in Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident, United Nations Climate Change Conference 2009 and Copenhagen treaty, to name but three sub-articles. What we don't do is alter the top-level explanations of the science (and the notable controversy that went into the science) here, as if this was a current affairs article. I have repeatedly said, we cannot cover all this complex ephemera in just one huge article, please join in and contribute to the relevant sub-articles, if you feel they are lacking in notable coverage. --Nigelj (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

* I don't think just to keep on starting another section, or putting 'another section break' is going to help anyone win an argument, not without new scientific sources saying that the science has actually changed. So, I'm not going to keep composing detailed counter-arguments - they're all the same anyway. And, with an edit history like that, calling people 'dude' does not make you look cool. --Nigelj (talk) 16:46, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"dude" is an idiomatic colloquialism, used by various speakers of the English language, and does not carry any pejorative meaning at all. If it did, i would apologize for using it, or if any was perceived. I stand by my right to use it within an appropriate context. how's that? :-)

Also, I did not start this new section; another editor did. I was simply replying to them. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It's probably better to avoid salutations like "dude", as they can appear patronizing and belittling on the page. Familiar forms of address (buddy is another) do not travel well, and this is a global forum. --TS 08:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Text discussion

Getting this conversation back to my original point, is there any way to introduce some balance into the opening paragraph? I will accept that very current news needn't go here. But, the fact that there are many notable scientists who disagree with the consensus view does belong here to balance a certainty otherwise apparently stronger than both death and taxes.

How about the following at the end of the first paragraph: "However, a number of leading scientists dispute the consensus view. Recent climate data shows the world has not been warming for the past decade. Climate models cannot currently account for this lack of warming." - Brittainia (talk) 18:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately this proposal seems to fail the "true" test before we get on to "relevance" "notability" etc. There has been little or nothing in scientific terms concluded from Climategate, as yet, and it affords little grounds for changing the article, per consensus above. In other non scientific terms I guess so far we have only learned some sceptics are prepared to law break to try to muddy the water which raises questions on lesser moral standards like telling the truth. I haven't yet seen any analysis which is more than trying to find out of context messages and build scandal from thin air. Of course other sceptics may have higher standards of integrity and of course they may be right about the science but we are not the judges of that here. --BozMo talk 19:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, well how about we just put back the sentence which always used to end the first paragraph: "Some scientists dispute the consensus view."

It was removed without discussion on October 23, 2009 by Atmoz ] Since it was there for years, it surely can't "fail" any of your tests - unless you've created a new one since October 23rd. - Brittainia (talk) 19:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Many of the people on that list are not even scientists, and others are scientists in fields unrelated to global warming. I shall have to watchlist it and begin cleaning out the garbage. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This was not the only removal. The sentence has ended up at as the closing sentence of the whole article. There were a vast number of edit wars over it (small number, few, scientists etc) over many months and there was some agreement on the eventual wording and placement. Personally I don't have any strong feelings on it but it does not seem of enough weight for the lede to me. --BozMo talk 20:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do not start editing warring this inaccurate list back into the article. There is no consensus for it to be re-added. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Was there a consensus for it to be removed? --GoRight (talk) 00:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No - None. = Brittainia (talk) 07:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, then it should not have been removed. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It was removed because it had no place in the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Text discussion, 2nd section

Well, I added that one small line back into the lede but as you can see, it was deleted within seconds:

1. (cur) (prev) 20:19, 9 December 2009 Scjessey (talk | contribs) (98,300 bytes) (Undid revision 330721894 by Brittainia (talk) - er...no. Discussion ongoing, list inaccurate.) (undo)
2. (cur) (prev) 20:18, 9 December 2009 Brittainia (talk | contribs) (98,433 bytes) (Replaced line deleted earlier without discussion, to bring the tiniest bit of balance to the Lede - See discussion page.) (undo)

So I guess that answers my original question. This was a lesson in the definition of "Censorship." - Brittainia (talk) 20:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Claims of "censorship" are without merit. You wish to add inaccurate material into the article without even attempted to establish a consensus for doing so. The problem here is that you are being tendentiously disruptive, possibly because you are attempting to pursue an agenda. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I merely returned a short line, which had been in the article for years and which was deleted without consensus or discussion. What is inaccurate about these 6 words? "Some scientists dispute the consensus view." - Brittainia (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with a mention that a small fraction of scientists disagree. On the other hand, with regard to censorship Antandrus's Observations are on target as always. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) It was not the words, it was the list associated with the hyperlink. The list itself is inaccurate, as I said above. Several of the people on the list aren't properly qualified to be on it. That is probably why it was removed before. Seek consensus before making changes, especially obviously controversial changes, to protected articles in future. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The "list" you refer to is simply the link to the appropriate Misplaced Pages page. This page has been edited by hundreds of editors for many years. If you have a problem with that page, then take it up there. That does not affect the accuracy of this short sentence in ANY way. - Brittainia (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It is not "appropriate". And in any case, the "accuracy" of the sentence is not the issue. It is the "appropriateness" of it. You must seek consensus for it, or you cannot add it. Simple as that. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, the sentence itself has problems, not the least of which is that it begins with a weasel word. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"Consensus" does not mean "unanimous agreement." There is no good reason that a single small sentence cannot be added, if one or more good-faith editors feel it is useful and appropriate. I agree with Brittainia's proposal as stated. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 21:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

That is not a correct interpretation of "consensus". When there is disagreement (as in this case), "one or more" editors cannot make the decision on their own - especially on a protected page. A proper consensus must be established, and if there is not a "snowball"-like agreement, a third opinion should be sought. We aren't having weasely stuff shoved in willy nilly. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Scjessey, if you have a problem with the people included at List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming I suggest that you take that discussion to that page. As it pertains to this article, it would seem legitimate to have a single sentence in the lead that refers to that list. It purports to be a list of scientists and it's contents are closely monitored so if there are any inaccuracies there they are certainly minor for the purposes of our discussion relative to THIS article, and any corrections thereof should be made THERE not here. --GoRight (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely with GoRight. There should not be this much needless contention over just one brief and reasonably-phrased sentence. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not "needless contention" at all. I am seriously opposed to having that list of "scientists" in the lede of this article. It has been added to the final section in an appropriate manner by another editor, and that should be the only appearance it makes. Bear in mind that the skeptics represent a tiny majority of scientists - so tiny, in fact, that their views should be considered to be on the fringe. Giving them a "voice" in the introduction would be a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

They are not tiny at all, or fringe at all, as the entry itself shows. Using those adjectives on an existing article at Misplaced Pages shows that you have a partisan opinion on this issue. The way to reach a resolution between two sides on any disputed issue is to incorporate some of the material proposed by each side, using WP:Discussion and WP:Compromise. This is simply a single sentence which a group of credible, well-reasoned good-faith editors have requested to have included. i see no reason for it to be continually obstructed. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason is because it would violate NPOV, one of our core policies. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

So, according to your comment, inclusion of BOTH sides of a notable debate makes the article LESS neutral and balanced??? I disagree with your comment, and with the underlying premise of your comment. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

that's not even remotely what I said. Why are you making stuff up and accusing me of thinking it? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I was simply trying to make the point that simple inclusion of this single brief sentence would be enough to insure that both sides of this notable debate get some degree of fair coverage. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you were simply saying I'd said something I had not. I don't appreciate your dishonest method of "making a point." KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

do you define making a tautology as dishonesty? Well, anyway, it was not my intention to misrepresent what you said, or to imply any dispute as to your character. I apologize if I did, or if any statment of mine appeared that way. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I consider that use of petitio principii can indeed be used as a form of character assassination, and I appreciate your withdrawal and apology. I fail to see a tautology in your assertion, and your characterization that you were merely using tautology and not loaded phrasing leads me to believe that there is a possibility your apology is less than wholly sincere. However, if you cease such unacceptable flights of fancy as regards my thoughts and opinions, and indeed other editors' thoughts and opinions, I see no reason to continue this. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I understand your concerns, and appreciate your reply. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

restatement of idea

I feel that including this brief sentence in the lead section would not violate NPOV, and improves the article by giving both sides of a significant debate some basic coverage. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The key piece of policy involved is UNDUE, which is part of NPOV. Specifically, in order to be included, the "sides", or more accurately, "views" (since "sides" implies a near-even distribution which is clearly inaccurate in this case) must be shown to be significant. The view that global warming is a farce or hoax, or even in any way inaccurate, is insignificant. I am aware of no serious scientist in any related field who holds this view. If one exists, the view would still constitute a vanishing minority and not be a significant view. What we have are some outliers, such as flat-earthers, who have a good bit of media exposure due to the politicization of this subject. The onus is on those who wish to include a minority view to demonstrate that it is significant; I invite you to do so. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You;'re not aware of ANY serious scientist? then why do we have an entry here at Misplaced Pages which lists them? The existence of the entry confirms the existence of several such scientists who are serious and notable, for the purposes of our discussion. if you are disputing that article's validity, that is your own opinion. the article clearly shows there are notable scientists on both sides. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you are dismissing the many leading scientists already listed here at Misplaced Pages. Also the latest news coming out of Copenhagen is relevant: "While the UN Secretary General has told the UN climate change conference in Copenhagen that mankind is primarily to blame for global warming, 150 scientists have signed an open letter demanding hard evidence for that." These are "150 Top Climate Scientists" according to the news report. I agree with Steve, Sm8900, that this brief sentence should be returned to the lead section - from which it was removed without consensus after being there for years. = Brittainia (talk) 19:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (talk) 20:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Missing information about Climategate consensus

I added a 'missing info/climategate' tag to the Debate and skepticism section. I left a note to leave it up for 48 hours to reach a consensus to add text that mentions the climategate news.

Thats disruptive editing but I see the tag has correctly been removed. --BozMo talk 17:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

OK. This text was deleted by tonysidaway 3 minutes after it was added by User:Brittainia;

However, a number of highly respected scientists dispute the consensus view. Recently, leaked emails reveal that the leading Global Warming scientists, at the Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia and elsewhere, have been concealing or altering the raw data, which shows the world has been cooling for the past decade. These Global Warming scientists have admitted in their emails, that none of the climate models can account for this lack of warming in the real world.

I added tag to the Debate and skepticism section. {{Missing information|Climategate}} It was removed 10 minutes later by William M. Connolley Who just said "see talk". Curiously, no talk by William Connolly, BozMo did the talking for him. He declared adding the tag "disruptive editing". I see this as little more than bullying to preserve a turgid status quo. Mytwocents (talk) 18:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)Strangely enough there has already been quite a lot of discussion about this, and consensus wasn't for inclusion. So tagging the article really is disruptive - since you are ignoring consensus. (and when you are saying "Curiously, no talk..." you are apparently deliberately ignoring the previous discussions, which is rather dishonest. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This article has nothing to do with the CRU hacking incident, so the tag was quite rightly deleted. Constantly trying to shove the CRU stuff into the article is indeed disruptive. The "Debate and skepticism" section is already too large, so we certainly don't need it to be expanded by adding stuff that is (at best) tangentially related. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is what is wrong with the proposed lead text. The lead is a summary of the article, which is in turn a summary of a number of other articles, so anything in the lead must be something the reader absolutely must know to have a general understanding of the issue of global warming. While I think that the original text that was removed from the lead is arguably appropriate (the existence of skeptics/deniers is a somewhat important part of the culture of GW discussioItalic textn, at least in the media), what you have presented is making an implicit argument about the unreliability of climatologists, their data, and the conclusions they have made, which is synthesis at best and giving grossly undue weight to a minority viewpoint in order to undermine the consensus position. You might also benefit from taking a look at WP:Words to avoid; using words like admitted. Also I am doubtful of the factual accuracy of the claim that the lack of cooling in the past ten years (which wasn't really a secret) isn't accounted for in climate models (FAQ#3?) but I don't know if that is something to discuss here. — DroEsperanto (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed the text cited by Mytwocents in his 1828 posting above partly because it contained screamingly obvious falsehoods and partly because this kind of nonsense doesn't belong in a sober discussion of the science of global warming in an encyclopedia. --TS 21:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is a headline from today;

Scientist 'Pressured' to Defend Climate Research

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2009/12/09/pressure-defend-climate-gate-scientists/

More than 1,700 scientists in Britain agree to sign a statement defending the "integrity and honesty" of global warming research, but at least one alleges he felt pressured to do so

One scientist said that he felt under pressure to sign the circular or risk losing work. The Met Office admitted that many of the signatories did not work on climate change

My thoughts are; We should at least have the word climategate in the article. There is a political element of global warming that needs to be mentioned on the GW page. And come to think of it where is Nobel Prize recipient Al Gore, not one mention in the article. Talk about an 850 pound gorilla!-- Mytwocents (talk) 08:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have read the lead very carefully and cannot find any balance at all - it is entirely slanted towards pro-AGW. There is no hint in the lead that the temperature record shows that the world has not warmed at all in the past decade. Nor is there any mention that the leading climate scientists are at a loss to explain it as their models don't "account for this lack of warming."

Instead any reader coming to Misplaced Pages for a balanced overview of Global Warming would finish reading the lead and believe that AGW is as proven a theory as Newton's Laws of Motion. Do you honestly believe Misplaced Pages is doing it's job responsibly by giving this erroneous one-sided view to people looking for a balanced understanding of Global Warming? = Brittainia (talk) 08:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Why would we introduce plain, unambiguously wrong information into the article? And I hope you do know that Newton's laws of motion are wrong (but still useful, just like most of science). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I did know that Newton's Laws of Motion are wrong - like most of science. However, since everyone here is convinced that the AGW theory is beyond question - it must not be a scientific theory. Only a religion can be beyond questioning. = Brittainia (talk) 09:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't even get me started on religion. Whenever faith gets brought up in scientific discourse or politics, I feel like killing everyone's firstborn. Religion should never be mixed with science or politics. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz said:

Why would we introduce plain, unambiguously wrong information into the article?

How on earth can you possibly be trying to use that totally partisan statement as a way to exclude an entire side of an ongoing debate? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• What debate? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
• What's partisan about my statement? Remember - Own opinion=ok. Own facts=Cuckoo. Brittainia's statement contained several statements that are simply wrong (tm). Saying so is no more partisan that saying 1+1=2. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm open to modification of Brittainia's proposed sentence. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It is difficult to see how it could be modified without violating the neutral point of view, since the entire sentence represents a fringe view. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Section break

Climategate is not the first or only issue with GW. There's lots of problems with GW, and anyone who thinks GW is proven by reading the lead clearly didn't read all of it - it says right there "Political and public debate continues regarding climate change, and what actions (if any) to take in response." Newton's laws of motion doesn't mention any issues in the lead. If we include Climategate in this article, why not include all of the other open sores that the GW theory has which are listed on Global warming controversy - which itself has many child pages? This page doesn't need to list every single issue. Now, if and when anything materially changes in the science of GW as a result, then it will be time to change the page, but I think at that point hacked e-mails will be a small part of it. (And I realize the fallacy of only relying on scientific literature when the controversy is over the scientific literature itself - but if tampering was done, the evidence will eventually be found, and hacked e-mails alone aren't it.)

To the skeptics, don't use weak science and hurried conclusions to win arguments, lest you become a typical Climatologist. --Tjsynkral (talk) 21:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The fourth and last paragraph of the lead mentions, "Political and public debate continues regarding climate change, and what actions (if any) to take in response." However, it clearly and very specifically does not say that "Scientific debate continues regarding climate change." The omission of the word "scientific," implies that the science is settled. Further, all of the "available actions" listed in the next line implicitly accept AGW. So anyone reading the lead could be forgiven for thinking that the AGW theory is proven.

For years, the lead at least had a brief sentence giving some balance: "Some scientists dispute the consensus view." at the end of the first paragraph. However even this brief mention of scientific debate was removed without discussion or consensus on October 23, 2009 by Atmoz. ] Given the Climategate revelations, it is high time Misplaced Pages restored some balance to the lead. There should be some mention of the ongoing scientific debate regarding climate change. The fact that 150 scientists have recently signed an open letter demanding hard evidence that mankind is primarily to blame for global warming at Copenhagen shows that there is still a scientific debate. This scientific debate should not be overlooked in the lead. = Brittainia (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I tried adding just one word "scientific" between "Political" and "public debate". However, as you can see it was deleted in just five minutes. According to Misplaced Pages, there is NO scientific debate.

1. (cur) (prev) 10:17, 11 December 2009 Stephan Schulz (talk | contribs) m (98,564 bytes) (Reverted edits by Brittainia (talk) to last version by ChyranandChloe) (undo)
2. (cur) (prev) 10:08, 11 December 2009 Brittainia (talk | contribs) (98,576 bytes) (Mentioned scientific debate) (undo)

You should consider the lesson of "The Emperor's New Clothes." Show them off as long as you want to, the public will see through this and start ridiculing soon. ~ Brittainia (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you get the memo? The IPCC is the end-all-be-all trump. If the IPCC said that Mars warmed because of American CO2 emissions, Misplaced Pages would be obligated by its neutral point of view policy to assert it as objective fact because it's considered a "scientific" organization by the United Nations. Macai (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This seems like a good time to point to Q16. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This seems like a good time to suggest addressing the argument made. Macai (talk) 10:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed it. What was the actual argument? --BozMo talk 11:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That making an effort to exclude any source that disagrees with the IPCC, while asserting IPCC conclusions as objective fact despite the fact that it's a political organization is a violation of WP:NPOV and a blatant appeal to authority. Macai (talk) 11:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

OIC. (1) don't see "disagrees with IPCC" given as a reason to exclude any source above and (2) I don't see IPCC conclusions presented as objective facts, only as scienitific consensus which given almost every serious scientific body in the world endorses them looks ok (3) IPCC has political aspects just like say UNICEF does but characterising it as "political" is POV (4) don't see any appeal to authority. So where have I gone wrong? --BozMo talk 11:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if you look carefully at the revert you will see that no reason was given at all for keeping the fact of scientific debate out of the lead. This is typical of the vast number of reverts and deletions made to this important article for many years now. Those controlling the Global Warming articles on Misplaced Pages clearly feel no need to explain themselves. In this they presumably look up to the shining example of those controlling the "Global Warming Science" who felt no obligation to provide the raw data requested even when they were legally required to. Instead they decided to shred it. No real scientist would ever destroy irreplaceable scientific data - only a propagandist would do that if it didn't support their propaganda. ~ Brittainia (talk) 12:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The real answer lies in Bozmo's reply:

I don't see IPCC conclusions presented as objective facts, only as scienitific consensus which given almost every serious scientific body in the world endorses them looks ok.

Because Bozmo and his faction deem their side to conform with worldwide scientific consensus, they can continually delete the legtimate edits of anyone here who has any different opinion. From their viewpoint, the ideas and opinions of other actual Misplaced Pages editors who show up here have no value and no validity; so they do not have to worry about Wp:consensus, or WP:Assume good faith. what does matter is that there is supposedly an abstract broad scientific consensus in the abstract scientific community; but obviously, the scientific community is not going to actually show up at this page to have its own debate, so they are secure with that pretense. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, in that case, you want FAQ 1 and FAQ 8. Don't forget to read the linked articles too. --Nigelj (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

To mention scientific debate in the lead, scientific debate needs to be mentioned and sourced in the body text. I see 6 prominent people there, but no organizations (6 people doesn't scientific debate make). If there's scientific debate, get it into the debate and skepticism section first, then talk about getting it in the lead. Be prepared to offer proof that an organization has a reputation for scientific research beyond disputing the claims of GW. I don't think there's scientific debate, to be honest - not because the science behind GW is good, per se (and it isn't), but because the scientific community as a whole is so politically entrenched that nobody would dare to say something against GW even if the research supports it. It's not how science should work, but there's no "science police" out there so we have to wait for the politics to catch up with the science. --Tjsynkral (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) There's a difference between the science and the politics. While the science is important, so is the politics, and this article does a poor job addressing it. Although Climategate is important, it's also not the only issue. Trying to briefly summarize your key points, is this correct Tjsynkral? If you're looking to improve the article, the last paragraph in "Debate and skepticism" has no references, is poorly written, and needs your love. The intent was to portray the opposition. However, since most discussions address the topic in a more general manner than specific, specific sections of text seem to be lost. The lead summarizes the body, and if the body is good, so will the lead. I don't know about you, but a proposal would be good. Post the replacement text and references in the discussion so that we can cleanup the grammar and prose, when that's done, post the replacement text for the lead. What do you think? ChyranandChloe (talk) 05:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you should try to fix any problems you see yourself. Be prepared to have any change you make immediately reverted by WP:OWNers Stephan Schulz, Count Iblis, WMC, Kim D. Petersen, and the other POV pushers who spend their entire day on the GW articles waiting to revert edits that don't make GW look 100% uncontested. --Tjsynkral (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Then why do you try? ChyranandChloe (talk) 06:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Recent Scafetta papers

There are some more recent articles (2009) by Scafetta, et. al, that should be included in the solar variation portion of the radiative forcing section, e.g. Nicola Scafetta and Richard Willson, “ACRIM-gap and Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) trend issue resolved using a surface magnetic flux TSI proxy model”, Geophysical Research Letter 36, L05701, doi:10.1029/2008GL036307 (2009)) by someone who understands the science better than I do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthOutThere (talk • contribs) 18:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion - I'll add itDikstr (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, the paper has been cited a total of 4 times in other peer-reviewed papers - one of which is by the author himself. Of the remaining three papers the two of them disagree with it, and the third uses it in a reference list with no inline citation (so there is no telling where it is used), and is in a journal that isn't focused on solar-research. Has nothing to do on this article, and i'm rather doubtful whether it would belong on a sub-article. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Kim; Sorry, what are you basing your comment on? I easily found a reference to that paper here: http://www.leif.org/research/2008GL036307-pip.pdf. and : http://www.livescience.com/environment/050930_sun_effect.html there are a number of other references as well. --22:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you are referring to the wrong paper. Note that this particular Scafetta paper is from 2009. The first link is to a pre-print of the paper, and the second is about an old Scafetta paper (note the date please). Use scholar, check "cited by". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, those article prove he is a credible source. A recent paper would not yet have a lot of media coverage. what standards are you people using here? there is no consensus that a paper which is already academically credible has to be further confirmed through refernce by other credible scholarly sources, who themselves need to be peer-reviewed journals subject to review by officially appointed accreditation agencies...phew, hard to even type that. --23:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There are thousands upon thousands of "credible," peer-reviewed papers published every year. We can't cite all of them. Let's wait and see if this paper makes a large impact on the field (so far, it has not). Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Boris above. The relevant issue here is one of weight. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This is getting a bit excessive. Misplaced Pages operates on the principles of all editors having some legitimate role in an article. there is nothing in Misplaced Pages guidelines which says that a single credible, legitimate source, has to have a wide-ranging impact before it can even be used here. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hm. In the past year there have been about 240 articles published in Journal of Climate, maybe 500 in Geophysical Research Letters, and 300 in JGR-Atmospheres, to name but three journals among a dozen or so relevant to the field. Is it your view that we can just shove 'm all in, as long as at least one editor wants it there? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No; we can include the few which summarize some of the important points of this topic and its related issues. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but that's not what I gathered from your previous response (maybe I misunderstood). So we've come full circle: we should wait and see if the Scafetta and Dikstr article becomes "an important point of this topic," as you say. I support that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with you. the question is not whether the source article itself is important, but rather whether it covers any important details of the topic itself. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Can we have a FAQ on this? Papers like this should *first* go into the solar variation article (ditto GHG for papers about GHG's). Fight about them there, decide their worth, and don't clog up the GW talk page or article with this stuff. Yes I know: you won't get the fame or fortune from trubble making here, but it is the appropriate path William M. Connolley (talk) 08:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

NASA spece probe

I think NASA is going to launch a probe to measure global warming more directly. I couldn't find out anything about it in the article. Should this be in there? And can someone point me to info about the probe? Bubba73 , 03:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It’s probably a satellite rather than a probe. You might want to check Eyes on the Earth , NASA main web sight for global warming/climate change.--CurtisSwain (talk) 08:40, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't find it - there are many of them. It was built during the Bush administration, but Bush would not allow it to be launched so NASA put it into storage until this administration. I think it was to go to a Lagrange point and directly measure how much of the warming is due to the Sun, getting a definitive measure of the amount due to humans. Bubba73 , 01:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I found it by looking at objects at Lagrange points: Deep Space Climate Observatory. Bubba73 , 01:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The Eyes on the Earth website given above has so many satellites that I think it would have an article listing them. Is there such an article (i.e. probes/satellites that study GW)? Bubba73 , 03:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The closest we have is probably Satellite temperature measurements, but there's lots more to measuring climate change than microwave temperature retrievals. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Started a new article, List of climate research satellites. ChyranandChloe (talk) 06:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Images, removal

Removed graph of sea level rise in the lead, this belongs in the section "Attributed and expected effects". There are two graphs on global temperatures, the first I believe are the mean temperature of each year with a step-wise (Dragonsflight? help me man) regression on it. The second compares the monthly average land-based and satellite based measurements with a linear regression through it all. I think we should cut the second, since it only goes back to 1975, where in the section "Temperature change" we start the regression in 1906. What do you guys think? ChyranandChloe (talk) 08:33, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

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