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This article is covered by Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy. Under this policy it has been decided by the majority not to include any mention of the subject's real name in the article or on the talk page. Any addition of the real name without first establishing a consensus to do so will be removed immediately.

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Jonathan Zittrain (May 4, 2008). "A simple way to avoid being the next Star Wars Kid". The Times.

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Why Not Named

Why is he not named and why are there no references to any of the things he said to the media? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.139.84 (talk) 04:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This has been debated at great length, multiple times. There is a slim majority of editors that believe that the most important policy regarding the mention of the kid's name is WP:Biographies of Living Persons. In particular, this policy states, "...This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Misplaced Pages editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization." AzureFury (talk | contribs) 04:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. I could understand not providing libelous information or things that are not conducive to a biography. However, seeing as how it is valid, if not pertinent, information to a biography, and seeing as this is a biography, it would seem that it should be required information (I find it strange that a biography anywhere would not actually have the name of the person it is of.) Misplaced Pages, nor it's editors, should censor information simply because someone doesn't like it (if I recall, there is a Misplaced Pages policy that states that Misplaced Pages is not censored.) Almost every Misplaced Pages biography of a current political figure has a criticism section that could be considered by some to be controversial and damaging to the person. As do many others of athletes, actors, commentators, pundits, entertainers, other memes, etc. Aside from all of this, being that the kid's family filed a lawsuit in court, it is all public information and therefor Misplaced Pages would only be relaying information (which is all it really does anyway.) I'm sorry if I am only repeating statements made previously, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me. It's rather silly to not put a very important piece of information in an article simply because it might hurt someones feelings. Especially since the videos are out there reguardless of whether or not we know his name. I mean, is the idea of Wiki readers knowing his name going to really be that much more of a problem to him? 98.215.128.112 (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You are repeating things that have been said before. I will repeat the responses. You say that because his name is so available, it won't be a bigger problem for him. On the other hand, because his name is so available, it is no problem for people who want to know it to find it. Take a look at WP:CENSOR, "Content that is judged to violate Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Misplaced Pages policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Misplaced Pages's servers are hosted, will also be removed." Including his name is a clear violation of WP:BLP. Just because it is factual does not necessarily mean it is worthy of inclusion in the article. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. You mention another argument, specifically "because X article does it, so must this article." We have a page for exactly that, WP:WAX. Every article is unique, and policies are guidelines. Take a look at WP:COMMON and WP:IGNORE. We must use common sense. Most editors do not see that anything is gained by including his name except our claim to lack of censorship, but do see that we would be assisting in his victimization. More editors believe the latter is more important, and that is why his name is absent. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 02:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand all of what you are saying and it would seem that a majority of the arguments seem zero sum. All but the censorship part, which seems in favor of including his name. WP:BLP Does make a mention of when not to use names, but the cases in which it mentions (as far as I can tell) are only those related to the person the article is about, not the main subject themselves. I also understand that little can be gained by adding his name, but can not that argument be used on virtually half the information on this site? I mean, how many people use wiki to find gobs of useless information and trivia? Also, my point about comparing other articles was not simply "well, that article did it, so why not this on?" It was more like; Every article on a war gives the dates of that war, every article of a political figure gives his alliance, every article on a plant gives its genus and species, every comic book character's article gives the name of the company that owns its rights, etc. Every biography article on here (at least of the hundreds of them I have read) gives the birth name of the articles subject. Now, I understand special circumstances, but in response to your last point, I ask a question; How does wikipedia displaying his name attribute to his victimization? Forgive me if I seem hardheaded and argumentative, it is not my intent. I truly do wish to know and understand the processes on wikipedia and this seems like a fine line issue and a good place for me to start to understand the intricacies.

Ok, let me respond with equivalent rhetoric. I've read and understood your arguments, but they are mostly zero sum. Therefore, I will respond to the weakest of points. Since this article is covered by the BLP policy, we can't include any information we so choose. And saying WP:WAX in a different way does not mean you are not using WP:WAX. Read the policies I've quoted for you. WP:BLP is clear that the name should say out. WP:CENSOR specifically states that it has a lower priority than WP:BLP. You're making the same argument as every other ethicless media outlet that assisted in his original victimization, "since other people have done it, there is no harm if we do it to." You are correct that this is a fine line issue. I've said that the majority of editors favor exclusion of his name. It was a slim majority, but a consistent majority nonetheless. There are Wikipedians who agree with you, that his name should be included. But considering this has been debated several times, and inclusion has been rejected several times, I think we should leave it at that, rather than call for another RFC. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 07:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

But is this article even a biography? It seems to me it is just an article about an internet phenomenon/meme. From that perspective, his name is pretty much irrelevant. This is not an article about the kid, it's about the video. If you add his name, then WP:BLP issues arise. zzymyn (talk) 11:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

If you check the top of this page, you will see that it is labeled as a biography. Regardless of that, the identity of any person involved in a situation or event is not just relevant, but pertinent as far as collecting information on that event. Especially when considering that this is an encyclopedia and that it's primary objective is to give as much basic and relevant information as possible regardless of weather or not it is important as far as every day facts. This article is not about "the video." This is an article about a video, the ensuing videos based on the original video, its mention in multiple medias, the person involved, the court case that followed, and pretty much all other information revolving around the person that the article is based on. 98.215.128.112 (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

So, I check back in after a while, and I see that the same "WTF?" question is getting asked. I'm still going to ask it too. Almost every source used to write this article uses the name. We don't second guess reliable sources, we mirror them. They, all with their professional legal and ethics departments, have almost every one determined that use of the name is ethical and legal. When you're writing about someone, and you can verify the name, you use it. That's a basic part of anything about a person. There are very few exceptions to that, and simple embarrassment is not one of them.

All that being the case, the sheer number of times that even anonymous editors have come and asked this question, many clearly in good faith, should tell us that we're not doing this right. When you say a "slim majority" favors exclusion, have you counted all the anonymous editors who have bothered to stop by the talk page to say "Hey, this doesn't seem right"? It's unusual for that to happen, and for every time that happens there are probably dozens to hundreds of people who wonder but don't want or know how to say anything about it. The name is not a secret, and it's certainly not unverifiable. BLP prohibits the violation of privacy, true, but the name at this point is by no means private.

I've edited anonymously for a while, and was considering coming back, but to see the same old falsehoods get trotted out here is rather discouraging. In reality, editor after editor (including but not limited to anon readers) have come here to ask "What's the deal with this?", and believed it wrong, while the same few support exclusion and claim they're the "majority" or that BLP supports them. I strongly doubt at this point, if we counted all of those who have supported vs. all against, that those against are anywhere near a majority. And they shouldn't be, because they're incorrect. BLP provides for exclusion of privacy violations or unverifiable information. The name is neither one, it is public knowledge (for better or worse), and it is certainly verifiable through plenty of highly credible sources. Seraphimblade 12:32, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

A debate about anons supporting and opposing inclusion is impossible as we have know way of knowing how many people read the article, acknowledged the absence of the name and did not add to the discussion page. Optional feedback always has a negative bias. I see that you really don't respect my opinion since you're already referring to it as "falsehoods" so put up an RFC if you wish and we can vote down inclusion a fourth time. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 16:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You also do not seem to respect our opinion as you referred to what I said as rhetorical arguments, when in reality, I was simply trying to understand the process and was having trouble seeing how your arguments were the optimum outcome of following Misplaced Pages guidelines. Although I am not an article editor, I do try to contribute to discussions on talk pages. And on this one, it would seem that there has been an abundance of reasons, good ones at that, to include the name. You, the lone voice opposing inclusion in this thread thus far, only seem to come up with one shaky reason; Misplaced Pages would be one more website among thousands to reveal his name and this could possibly (somehow) further attribute to his victimization. That just doesn't seem like a good enough reason to combat all the other reasons, like the fact that this is an encyclopedia. Also, one more point that I'm not sure has been made in the past; He used school equipment for every single aspect of the vid. School camera, school film, school golf ball retriever, etc. And in the end, all he did was look kinda silly for swinging the thing around. Big deal. All the victimization came from his peers. I would venture to guess that the press revealing his name added nominal amounts of ridicule in comparison what he had already faced. I think that most kids had to deal with some sort of bullying in school, but if some guy from Illinois knows their name, does it really make it any worse? And if so, then we should remove the entire article under the same grounds since it is so easy to find his name anyway. 98.215.128.112 (talk) 04:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm probably wasting my time responding to a "no, you are" level comment, but there's a few things I feel I should point out. This is the dictionary.com definition of rhetoric: "the art of making persuasive speeches; oratory." Not sure how you came to be offended by that, I guess you were looking for a way to establish that I had been equally condescending. This is the second time you've tried to undermine my argument simply by saying that it is weak. You think I am the lone voice of opposition, yet had you been watching the history of either the talk page or the article itself, you will see multiple established editors preserving the absence of his name. Really, I am the most generous, spending my time to explain to you why we've maintained the article this way. Let me sum up my arguments for you one time. If you want to take the pure policy approach, then trivially the name should be excluded, per WP:BLP and WP:CENSOR. If you want to take a common sense approach, the name should still be excluded on the grounds that "everyone has done it" is not a refutation of immorality. I will say no more. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 05:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There is simply no reason not to include his name. WP:CENSOR could cover this, but it's essentially a case of ignoring the facts over a pointless fear of hurt feelings. Misplaced Pages should include the facts if they're relevant, and the idea that somehow identifying someone who's name is public knowledge is against policy is ludicrous. The biggest problem with the article now is the unsourced, not the sourced. Friginator (talk) 19:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm replacing the phrase "the student" with Ghyslain Raza's real name. Censoring Raza's name is ridiculous, especially when it's from his own biography page. I'm surprised that no one has changed it since it was added last year, but it's frankly one of the dumbest editorial decisions I've seen on Misplaced Pages. Friginator (talk) 22:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

See WP:BLP. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 23:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm out

Really, this type of thing is the reason I ended up leaving. When did we start "voting" on what sources do or don't say? When did any talk page discussion become a vote, or a shoutdown? When did the opinion of anonymous editors stop mattering, because they can't strictly be counted? Can we say the number for inclusion can't be accurately counted, since they face derision as "immoral" if they dare to disagree, and many, seeing such a discussion, will quietly move along even if they do disagree with those engaging in such name-calling and incivility? You have every right to disagree, but you don't have any right to be rude and condescending, or to call those who disagree with you "immoral" as though such is a foregone conclusion. You like to quote policies that I don't even believe are relevant (BLP protects against private or poorly sourced information being placed into an article, the information here is public and available from highly reliable sources), but civility and refraining from attacking others personally applies to every discussion, every time. And we most certainly can quantify a rough number of anons who have identified the exclusion of the name as problematic. Take a look through the archives. How many articles have that level of anonymous editor participation on the talk page? I imagine you could find me some, I doubt you could find me many. And most of them come here puzzled to ask the same question-"Where's the name?", and receive a response that's patronizing and dismissive at best and rude more often than not. Of course, those editors wouldn't see or participate in an RFC, more likely than not. But of course we could canvass a "vote", much like GeorgeWilliamHerbert did last time around. But that's not why you'd want to do it that way and ignore what's already transpired, is it? Seraphimblade 03:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Q. Where's the name? A. In the first source. If we wanted to fully censor the name, we would take down citations to sources that mention the name. But as it stands, anyone who wants to see the name of Star Wars Kid can look at the first 100 words of the first source that the article cites. The sources are doing a good job of keeping the name up; Misplaced Pages need not duplicate that effort ;-) --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 14:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Then why would we bother to write Misplaced Pages at all? Icewedge (talk) 06:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

RFC

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A dispute has been reopened that has been repeated again and again in the past. Editors are introducing the Star Wars kid's real name into the article citing WP:CENSOR. On the other side, editors are removing his name citing WP:BLP as he was victimized and the policy states, "This is of profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Misplaced Pages editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization." Should the SWK's real name be included in the article or does this assist in his victimization? AzureFury (talk | contribs) 23:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying that because this person has been victimized at some point, we can't say his name, even though this is a biographical article about him? Friginator (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The individual is not notable, the event is. We aren't writing the story of his life. We are writing about the internet meme. So no, it is not necessary to include his name. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 23:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree; if one were to ask that person their view, there's little doubt that they would strongly request their name be omitted. This isn't a case of whitewashing a BLP, it's a case where the person's notoriety is a direct result of unlawful activity against him by others. He's sued, and had settlement payments from, the perpetrators - so clearly there was a case for damages. Let's not compound the suffering of the victim? Little grape (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur with the established consensus that this article should remain without his real name. This is not his biography. It is a discussion of a brief, unfortunate episode in a person's life, that is not improved one whit by the name of the individual involved. WP:CENSOR does not trump our moral and ethical responsibility to a living young man whose foolish decision (to trust friends), resulted in serious consequences to his life and reputation. I'll also note that the decision to omit the name has been externally and approvingly reviewed in The Times by Jonathan Zittrain, Harvard and Oxford University Internet law prof. --Slp1 (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC) --Slp1 (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree. If this were a biographical article, it would be at the persons name, and it would contain information about him. This is an article about the viral video. WP:BLP1E applies. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Strongly agree that his name should be omitted per WP:BLP1E. J04n(talk page) 02:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Omit name, obviously. Steve Smith (talk) 02:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

We've had this discussion repeatedly. It would be helpful to avoid going around this question again unless there is something that would indicate a possibility for a different outcome. Until there is a major change in the BLP policy, its clear that we cover the event here, not the person. Who this person is matters very little to an encyclopedic discussion of the meme. Shell 02:44, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there a way to prevent auto-archiving so I don't have to keep explaining the justification to new editors, as in the section above? AzureFury (talk | contribs) 04:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, not everyone agrees, and not everyone who disagrees is a "new user". The fact that the question keeps getting asked indicates a potential problem in and of itself. Effectively all of the sources use the name, indicating that they considered it important to the discussion. By failing to follow that lead, we are in essence engaging in POV—relying on our own opinion of what we should or should not include, rather than looking to the majority of reliable sources for the answer. Seraphimblade 05:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Any time we form a consensus and exercise editorial control, we are expressing an opinion. When we decide which policy applies, we are expressing an opinion. To include the name would be an expression that WP:CENSOR trumps WP:BLP, which it specifically states it does not. Misplaced Pages is its own animal. It has its own policies. Misplaced Pages does not cave to the peer pressure of other media outlets. We follow our policies that are established and agreed upon by our editors. If other sources wish to engage in unethical activities, that is their decision. That does not mean we should blindly follow them. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 05:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The issue here isn't even really not being censored, though that is an important consideration. The most important consideration is neutrality. The way to resolve neutrality issues is simple—ask "What do the sources say?" What is ethical and what is not is often a subjective consideration. One would assume that professional journalists are well versed in journalistic ethics. A vast majority of these professionals came to the conclusion that including the name falls within ethical bounds. Imagine a different situation—an editor comes along and says it is "unethical" for us to state that a certain medical treatment is effective, as he believes it is not. Others share that belief. Yet, the vast majority of the scientific literature on the subject states that it indeed is. It would be POV for us to follow that opinion, even if it is widespread. We could certainly report that there is controversy, provided that it is sourced well, but to actually exclude the findings of effectiveness from the article based on such opinions would absolutely be POV. The situation here is no different. We've got a reliable source saying the situation is controversial. We can use that source. But to follow that source, to the exclusion of dozens of others, is POV. Seraphimblade 06:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Article full protected for a week

Due to the edit warring, I am fully protecting the article for one week.

I am not going to take any BLP violation or WP:3RR or WP:EDITWAR related enforcement actions at this time. I would like to request that, when the full protect ends, nobody launch into a new round of fighting over it. THAT, will lead to blocks.

The RFC above is fine. Edit warring over BLP issues, especially long settled ones, is not OK. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

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