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Manon Batiste

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Manon Batiste (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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This article has undergone negligible improvement during and since the previous AfD. The scant real-world commentary to the character is presented as a passing reference in a single review of the game itself, or as a series of non-independent "developer diaries" or direct quotes from producers about the music and the character -- i.e. topic has not received "significant" coverage. All of this content has already been copy-and-pasted to the relevant game article (or articles?). (This article's talk-page claims that this real-world information was "merged" to these target articles and that this base article must remain to maintain attribution. However, because the "responsible" editor made all the edits and used the exact same language, there seems not a need to maintain this article's history -- it wasn't so much a "merge" as a near-simultaneous copy-and-paste.) ANYHOW -- this article makes no substantiated claim for the topic's real-world notability independent of the game in which it is a protagonist, or other games in which it appears. A redirect has been undone, with one editor claiming that notability is established because the character is "one out of millions of game characters based on an actual historical figure". However, this claim is not articulated in the article itself, let alone substantiated -- furthermore, unless there's an academic investigation into "the few numbers of game characters based on historic figures," an interesting bit of statistical trivia doesn't convey notability. There is no compelling rationale to maintain this unnecessary content fork (which consists of snippets of duplicated passing commentary, and mostly gameplay/plot regurgitation). --EEMIV (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Note that previous AfD's closing admin's suggestion that sources be added hasn't been met. --EEMIV (talk) 17:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete per nom and prior argument; unencyclopaedic fancruft repeatedly restored by disruptive editor. Jack Merridew 17:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
• Speedy keep per GFDL. The article has undergone considerable improvement during and since previous AfD. The significant real-world commentary is presented in multiple reviews of the game. The article undeniably demonstrates real-world notability independent of the game in which it is a protagonist, or other games in which it appears. A redirect has been undone by multiple editors, with one editor claiming that notability is not established because the character. This claim is articulated in the article itself and is substantiated by reliable sources, which conveys notability. There is no compelling rationale to delete this necessary content appropriate spinoff (which consists of significant commentary, and development and reception information). Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

A Nobody, have you once again forgotten the many, many times you've been asked (including several times by me) not to parrot back the structure and wording of other editors' comments? Why on Earth would you again stoop to such annoying mimicry? --EEMIV (talk) 17:40, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do you see fit to swear and mock editors in your incivil edit summaries: , , etc.? Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Myself and others mimic other editors comments ALL the time. So what? But Edit summaries like EEMIV's, mocking other editors comments, are much more troubling: "simplifying puffy bulshittery" "trying to puff up bullshit content?" are actually ACTIONABLE as personal attacks. Ikip 20:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment removed some borderline attacks. Let's try to be civil. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 19:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

  I've restored the so-called-attacks; they're not. Let's not muddy this discussion. Jack Merridew 19:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Can we delete, strike, or move to the talk page everything here? Everything from "A Nobody, have you once again forgotten the many..." down?

Can you rewrite your section A Nobody since it obviously annoys EEMIV? Ikip 20:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I, for one, don't care to see this discussion redacted. Jack Merridew 20:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete: Non-notable. The references are merely name-checks on gaming websites. Ryan4314 (talk) 21:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Non-notable is not a valid reason for deletion and certainly when not true due to the out of universe commentary on reliable website. This book, for example, is not a gaming website. Sincerely, --A Nobody 21:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Just because you and your friends don't like the words: "non-notable" & "cruft" doesn't make my argument any less valid. Ryan4314 (talk) 21:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Whether agreeing/disagreeing with a subjective "notable/not-notable" agrument, the factual aspect is indeed invalidated when the information is sourced from The Boston Globe and a few published books. Sure, some of the sources could be better, but there is enough coverage in reliable print secondary sources that is is factually inacccurate to say "The references are merely name-checks on gaming websites." This is not a gaming website. Moreover, it is out of universe, real world historical context: "She also was a consultant in 2000 for a Sony PlayStation game called ``Medal of Honor: Underground," featuring a heroine named Manon and based on her World War II missions". At worst in such a scenario we would we merge and redirect per User:T-rex/essays/the more redirects the better and WP:PRESERVE. Sincerely, --A Nobody 22:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete no discussion of this minor video game character and its real world impact/meaning. The only one or two reliable sources that mention this name merely, well, mention it as in the obit. Clear fail of all the notability and inclusion guidelines.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:14, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Please be sure to read the discussion and review sources when commenting in AFDs. The Boston Globe presents out of universe, real world historical context: "She also was a consultant in 2000 for a Sony PlayStation game called ``Medal of Honor: Underground," featuring a heroine named Manon and based on her World War II missions". Besides, as this content was merged months back, it cannot be deleted per the GFDL anyway. Sincerely, --A Nobody 22:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I read it all. I accept you think that sentence constitutes in depth exploration and analysis of the character. I think it constitutes a trivial mention in an entirely different context. So don't presume to lecture me about what i have or haven't read. I simply disagree with you. Sincerely and with the utmost respect.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

We are discussing a playable character from a major franchise with appearances beyond the game on which she even appears on the cover art who is based on a real person. There is NO pressing need to redlink such a valid search term and certainly not when there is sufficient in depth exploration and non-trivial analysis of the character to justify at worst the merge for which we cannot redlink anyway. By the way, you can see her on the cover of this book. Sincerely, --A Nobody 22:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, i also accept that you believe promotional cover art using a fictional character that appears in a work of fiction consstitues in depth, ongoing, independent analysis and coverage of the sort that would justify an entry for the fictional character seperate from the work of fiction itself in a general encyclopedia. I don't believe any of that. I believe it constitues advertising for the work of fiction and provides no information -- none, zilch, nada -- that would allow to construct a proper encyclopedia article or justify inclusion. With warmest affection and great sincerityBali ultimate (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

All of that is irrelevant as this discussion cannot end in delete anyway due to the requirement of keeping attribution history public. And it is not a mere fictional character, but rather an adaptation of a real person. Moreover, we are NOT just a general encyclopedia. Per our first pillar, we are also a specizliaed enycclopedia and a paperless one at that. The out of universe development and reception information are sufficient to justify inclusion as a proper encyclopedic article. By contrast, there is absolutely no pressing need to redlink something that is not a hoax, not libelous, nor a copyright violation. A major character with appearances in multiple mainstream games as verified in multiple reliable sources meets any reasonable or common sense standad of notability in addition to the ever changing Wikipedic definition. It is not a matter of subjective opinion. It is a matter of objective fact that 1) she is a main character; 2) she is based on a real person; 3) information in the article is verified in multiple reliable sources; 4) content has been merged and so the edit history must remain public per the GFDL; 5) she is not a hoax; 6) she is not libelous, etc. There is no objective need to redlink. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not objective. You can make a case for restoring the redirect (which is the worst possible acceptable outcome, as it cannot legally be deleted), but that is it. Sincerely, --A Nobody 22:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

That wall of text does not change the fact that there is no independent reliable source analysis and discussion of the real world relevance of this character anywhere. With the highest sincerity i can muster.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:06, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

You can say that a banana is not a banana but it doesn't change the fact that it is, just as you can claim over and over that no independent reliable sources analysis and discussion exists of the real world relevance of this character despite such sources being presented both in this article, across two discussions, and by even a rudimentary Google search. Information from this article was used to make a DYK article on a real person. No one can objectively deny that this character is covered in out of universe fashion in multiple indepdent reliable sources, but again, since the article cannot be deleted anyway, there is no real point to this exchange. So, Merry Christmas! Sincerely, --A Nobody 23:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• Keep The info is too much for the main article. The references are standard for fictional characters. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
• Delete The scant development and reception presently in the article isn't enough to justify keeping the article. The development section in fact is composed of one quote which is already placed in the parent's article and which is more about the music anyway. The single sentence of the reception easily fits within the purview of the parent. There are two problematic articles here, not one: Let the story of this single character be told within the not-existing plot section of the parent (which should exist, mind you) and by the person this story is based on. This is a delete based on the article failing WP:PLOT; mind you though, there is a place in the parent article for some of that. 3-500 words should be about right. --Izno (talk) 03:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

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