Revision as of 03:32, 7 January 2010

• recent changes
• purge this page
• view or discuss this template

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

Requests for arbitration

Character list merge

Initiated by Zyrxil (talk) at 02:27, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Zyrxil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Jinnai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Zyrxil

This morning I found that Jinnai had merged a large amount of character pages and character-related articles for Hunter × Hunter into the preexisting List of Hunter × Hunter Characters.

At first I didn't understand this was intentional editting and not just vandalism, so I reverted the changes. He later reverted them back explaining it was intentional, and he felt the pages were too detailed and should all be on one list. I asked on his talk page to revert the changes as it created an extremely large article, the rationale for doing so was faulty, and because there had been no discussion. Several hours later, I checked the status of the articles and found them still merged, with simply tags added that a Merge was Suggested, with notice that it was being done on the List's talk page.

At this point, I again reverted the changes and made a sharper point of my disagreements on the talk page. Jinnai's response has been to counter-revert again, claim it had been discussed, and request all affected pages be locked from editting...in their changed state. To me, it seems Jinnai seems to be uninterested in any real discussion and is simply going forward with unilateral action. I don't see anything other than arbitration will get him to stop him steamrolling over other contributors in his spare time.

Statement by uninvolved party TheFarix

I strongly encourage that the Arbitration Committee decline this case as quickly as possible. At it's core, it is a content dispute that should be resolved by further copyediting and trimming of excessive plot information, particularly removing one-off or incidental characters from the list. However, Zyrxil apparently doesn't see that as a valid option. —Farix (t | c) 13:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jinnai

I think Zybill jumped the gun here. This is a content dispute that has a bunch of excess trivial info that was the basis for the split and by removing it the basis for the split is moot. I went ahead and merged everything because it was easier to do that since none of the information was lost (except some minor trivial stuff and coding). Bottom line: no policy validates any claim that these pages need to exist separately.陣内_Jinnai 05:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

• Clerk note Assuming the case hits 0/8, it will be archived as rejected due to the mathematical impossibility of acceptance. MBisanz 22:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/9/0/0)

• Decline - insufficient stages of dispute resolution have been attempted. Would suggest going and posting about this at the administrator's noticeboard instead - Arbcom is the last resort, not the first port of call. Fritzpoll (talk) 10:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline. Content disputes are not within ArbCom's scope. Please try one of the many other options for dispute resolution. Shell 13:42, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline Content dispute, and ArbCom is the last resort of disputes, not the first. SirFozzie (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline. Please review Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. It provide excellent advice for helping resolve content disagreements, as well as many venues for resolving such conflicts. If you need advice about how to best proceed forward or utilize any of the dispute resolution options, please feel free to leave me a talk page message and I'll help you out. Vassyana (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline as a content dispute with no apparent behavioral issues that can't be handled through normal means. Try to continue discussing the matter, or seek a third opinion if the two of you aren't able to sort things out. Hersfold 17:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline. KnightLago (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline per above. Steve Smith (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline per my colleagues.  Roger Davies 08:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
• Decline, content dispute. - Mailer Diablo 03:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Chabad movement editors

Initiated by IZAK (talk) at 07:17, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Involved parties

• IZAK (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Yehoishophot Oliver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Shlomke (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Zsero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• User talk:IZAK
• User talk:Yehoishophot Oliver
• User talk:Shlomke
• User talk:Zsero
• User talk:Debresser

Confirmation that outside commentators on the COI page have been informed

• User talk:RK
• User talk:Joe407
• User talk:Yoninah
• User talk:Jmabel
• User talk:Redaktor
• User talk:Yossiea
• User talk:Shuki
• User talk:nsaum75
• User talk:DGG
• User talk:Avraham
• User talk:SlimVirgin
• User talk:Malik Shabazz

Confirmation that outside admins who have commented have been informed

• User talk:Atama
• User talk:Sarah
• User talk:Coppertwig
• User talk:Moonriddengirl
• User talk:Gordonofcartoon
• User talk:Dougweller

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/User:Yehoishophot Oliver
• Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User:Yehoishophot Oliver
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Tendentious editing by User:IZAK

Inactive Chabad movement admin

• User PinchasC (talk · contribs) aka User Eliezer (talk · contribs) aka User Truthaboutchabad (talk · contribs) is the original proto-typical example and “teacher” of how to defend the interests of Chabad-related topics and articles on Misplaced Pages by means of elaborate WP:LAWYER and a strategy of WP:OWN and WP:COI by tirelessly and aggressively wearing down any serious insertion of critical and sourced material while covering up any overt messianic extremism.
  • User Eliezer (talk · contribs) pro-Chabad editor, who for unknown reasons in May 06 changed his name to "User:PinchasC" who was also:
  • User Truthaboutchabad (talk · contribs) (User:Truthaboutchabad, started Nov 04) but then he too became "User:PinchasC":
  • The name hopping of User PinchasC (talk · contribs) aka User Truthaboutchabad (talk · contribs) aka User Eliezer (talk · contribs) remains puzzling, as does his "retirement" and it’s amazing all 3 in one became an admin in the first place. PinchasC “retired” since May 09, yet he rose to admin status and defended pro-Chabad positions skillfuly. It would not be surprising if he returns given the current RfA. IZAK (talk) 08:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Inactive Chabad movement editors

The following are the many inactive Chabad editors whose editing patterns are continued violating WP:OWN, WP:COI, and frequently WP:NPA albeit more diplomatically and with greater skill, by the four most active Chabad editors cited in this RfA. There are many more that edit under anonymous IP addresses not cited here, based on the edit histories of three key articles: Chabad; Chabad messianism; Menachem Mendel Schneerson, Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC):

• User Ariel Sokolovsky (talk · contribs) (links to him are confused on Misplaced Pages) has violated WP:SOCK to espouse the most open messianism. He makes the other pro-Chabad editors very nervous, because he belongs to a group within Chabad that believes the Rebbe=God (the so-called “elokists” or “boreiniks”). He promoted the www dot kingmessiah dot com site (it cannot be diffed here, because it is blocked per Misplaced Pages:Spam blacklist from being on Misplaced Pages’s servers). It was probably admin Jfdwolff (talk · contribs) who blocked it out, (confirm who blocked www dot kingmessiah dot com and why). User Ariel Sokolovsky (talk · contribs) (openly pro Chabad messianist activist, see his user page, who wrote his own biography that was deleted) who is supposedly blocked (how can he be blocked and not blocked with the same user name, also a puzzle.) He created a sockpuppet User Yudel Krinsky (talk · contribs) and was blocked for threats. It’s still a mystery if this user and socks are blocked or not, see sockpuppets of Ariel Sokolovsky.
• User Meshulam (talk · contribs) (not active since Dec 07 who strongly defended messianist POVs diplomatically.)
• User Chocolatepizza (talk · contribs) (Strong defender, but not active since Oct 06.)
• User Chabad (talk · contribs) (inactive since Dec 04 and warned not to spam messianic sites by admin Jfdwolff.)
• User PhatJew (talk · contribs) (pro-Chabad defender and apologist, not active since Oct 08.)
• User Ems2 (talk · contribs) (pro-Chabad editor, not active since June 06.)
• User TrachtGut (talk · contribs) (pro-Chabad editor, inactive since Dec 06.)
• User Moshiachnow (talk · contribs) (this use's name says it all, not active since Apr 09, few but strong edits.)
• User Merkoss (talk · contribs) (pro-messianist blocked in a day, June 09.)
• User Eliger48 (talk · contribs) (defender of Chabad with few but strong edits.)
• User Jew (talk · contribs) (pro messianist and blocked Jan 07, posted blocked “king-messiah” links, blocked Feb 07 & Dec 08.)
• User YechiHaMelech (talk · contribs) (added strong messianist “king-messiah” links, last edit Aug 05, few edits.)
• User Henochz (talk · contribs) (pro-Chabad apologist, inactive since Mar 07, few edits.)
• User Mendel770 (talk · contribs) (all in one pro-Chabad, 18 Apr 06, few edits).
• User ChabadNJ (talk · contribs) (Logs on to add a couple of pro-Chabad links, Feb 07.)
• User Sittingduck100 (talk · contribs) (Logs on, spams pro-Chabad links, Aug 7 few edits.)
• User Gavhathehunchback (talk · contribs) (Chabad apologist cites sources, last edit Apr 09, few edits.)
• User Yechi770live (talk · contribs) (In five quick edits on one day censors heavily, 19 Apr 07.)
• User Nefeshelokis (talk · contribs) (Three quick edits in one day to prove the Rebbe is the messiah, 22 May 07.)
• There are many more...

Confirmation that inactive Chabad movement editors have been informed

• User talk:PinchasC
• User talk:Ariel Sokolovsky
• User talk:Meshulam
• User talk:Chocolatepizza
• User talk:Chabad
• User talk:PhatJew
• User talk:Ems2
• User talk:TrachtGut
• User talk:Moshiachnow
• User talk:Merkoss
• User talk:Eliger48
• User talk:Jew
• User talk:YechiHaMelech
• User talk:Henochz
• User talk:Mendel770
• User talk:ChabadNJ
• User talk:Sittingduck100
• User talk:Gavhathehunchback
• User talk:Yechi770live
• User talk:Nefeshelokis

Statement by IZAK

A serious ongoing discussion about WP:COI violations by pro-Chabad editors remains unresolved in spite of a number of admins intervention, see Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/User:Yehoishophot Oliver. Some have already suggested arbitration . Other editors very familiar with Judaic issues on Misplaced Pages have voiced their own independent opinions, 11 so far, namely Users RK (talk · contribs); Joe407 (talk · contribs); Yoninah (talk · contribs); Jmabel (talk · contribs); Redaktor (talk · contribs); Yossiea (talk · contribs); Shuki (talk · contribs); Nsaum75 (talk · contribs) and diplomatic instructions to the pro-Chabad editors from DGG (talk · contribs); Avraham (talk · contribs) and SlimVirgin (talk · contribs).

The issues mainly revolve around the WP:OWN and WP:WAR defenses attitude of 4 pro-Chabad users at this time who expressly edit in a fashion that protects the Chabad movement’s POV and they resort to WP:WAR, WP:NPA and WP:LAWYER to protect their turf in key articles such as Chabad messianism and Chabad-Lubavitch related controversies they fight tooth and nail to keep out and control comments and edits the movement dislikes. The comprehensive complaints against them with diffs, going so far as calling to block them or at least to restrict their aggressive and obstructionist tactics, are at the COI discussion:

1. User:Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs
2. User:Shlomke’s pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs
3. User:Zsero’s pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs
4. User:Debresser’s pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs

Instead of answering to the complaint the pro-Chabad editors have resorted to multiple violations of WP:NPA and obfuscation, going so far as to open their own frivolous not-to-the point red herring complaints that so far no admins have taken seriously at:

1. Tendentious editing by User:IZAK
2. User:IZAK's POV editing, violations of WP policy and diffs

Additional concerns about the direction the pro-Chabad editors are taking are expressed at:

1. Why Misplaced Pages should NOT become just another Chabad website
2. IZAK's Warning
3. A query

The discussions are at a total impasse and the matter has been developing for a number of years, but have now boiled over following a series of AfDs that resulted in the merging or deletion of 5 out of 6 very minor topics concerning Chabad, but the situation over-all has been effecting many members of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism and others who do NOT adhere to the official teachings, beliefs and policies of the Chabad ideology, but while not being opposed to it, who wish to edit and write about it in a more open and critical fashion from all points of view befitting an independent encyclopedia without being harrassed.

Therefore the situation is such that arbitration is the only choice, and following that there should be an official policy guideline stated for Chabad-related articles and pro-Chabad editors and users as exists for those about other tightly conformist groups such as applies to articles about Scientology and the LaRouche movement as examples. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sarah

I will expand on this when I have more time, but as a preliminary statement, I support the arbitration committee examining this case. The dispute has taken up a massive amount of space on COIN and has now spread across to ANI and it seems to be way beyond the ability of the community to address adequately. There is bad behaviour and very blatant NPA and CIVIL violations flying from both sides, very lengthy arguments and bickering which show no sign of ending and requests from admins to cease the incivility and personalising the dispute are ignored or rebuffed (see for example). I don't know if accusations of COI are with merit but I do believe that there is merit in concerns about the behaviour of editors in this subject area and that the community is unable to address the dispute adequately. So I endorse the request that the Committee accept this case to examine the behaviour and input of all parties. Sarah 11:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Debresser

As I have stated in my first response (timewise) to the COI/N thread, I definitely have a POV towards Chabad, since I have been an adherent of this respected world-wide religious movement in Hasidic Judaism for approximately 19 years. Everybody has many POV's, and I am not an exception. Nevertheless I try, and I think with success, to refrain from making POV edits when editing on Misplaced Pages. I can show edits that clearly prove I am doing a very good job at that. Without claiming to be flawless, I think my edits are generally of acceptable-good quality. Including in the cases mentioned in/alluded to in the COI/N thread. Obviously, as any Wikipedian editor in good standing, I would have no problem with a third-party assessment of my behavior in this issue (or any other issue connected with my behavior on Misplaced Pages).

At the same time I think that any and all accusations of WP:COI and "conspiracies" are void. Such accusation may stem from insufficient understanding of the workings of this organisation (if it even may be called such). I also think that User:IZAK has been motivated largely by his own POV on Chabad-related issues, both in his recent posts on talk pages and noticeboards, as well as in his own edits regarding Judaism-related articles. In addition, his posts related to this issue have been quite belligerent in tone, which has been an additional reason for me to doubt his objective assessment of those issues.

I can not answer for the other editors being accused, whom I do not know in real-life. As to myself I can only say that I was not in need of a reminder of our POV guidelines. In conclusion, as I stated in this edit to the COI/N thread, I think that a general reminder of our POV guidelines to all five involved editors would be enough to consider this issue properly dealt with at this stage. Debresser (talk) 11:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

Comparing Chabad to Scientology is neither helpful nor accurate. Nevertheless, if adherents to certain religious beliefs dominate any articles about those beliefs to prevent any scholarly criticism from being added, that's a problem. On the other hand, if skeptics add non-scholarly criticism, that's also a problem. If editors cannot agree to work together collegially, then ArbCom should take the case. The community is poorly equiped to deal with teams of editors who protect each other and obstruct the formation of consensus on esoteric topics. There simply aren't enough editors interested in such topics to counterbalance those with belief-driven agendas. Jehochman 14:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

To the involved editors

If this case goes to arbitration, chances are good that some or all of you will be sanctioned. Is that the result you really want? Wouldn't it be better to play nice with each other and take your content disagreements to mediation instead? We can't force you to use mediation. That's a choice you need to make voluntarily.

To Guy

If it looks like Chabadniks have been linkspamming, then WP:WPSPAM may be interested to hear about it. Jehochman 22:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

I'm going to repeat something I've said elsewhere. The number of links to chabad.org appears to be out of all proportion to the significance of the Chabad Lubavitch movement. Many articles on topics related to Judaism in general but on which Chabad does not have a recognisably separate view, have links to pages on chabad.org. Over 1,000 links. An example: Seattle-Tacoma International Airport contains a link to "fight or light", an editorial by Yanki Tauber, who I do not think is a widely-cited authority. I brought this up some years back when it was pointed out to me during discussions over management of links to a site for a traditionalist Catholic website, an analogous situation since there, too, was reasonably neutral and even interesting content but by authors with no obvious authority outside the field of traditionalist catholicism, so apparently neutral information was presented but by a source of unknown authority and in the context of a great deal of rather biased information supportive of a fringe movement within the Catholic faith - Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive56 (section: chabad.org) has a record of this discussion.

Discussions of Chabad on the noticeboards if anyone's interested. Guy (Help!) 17:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jmabel

I do think it would be good for the arbitrators to take this up. I believe that Chabad/Lubavich and their views are becoming disproportionately represented in articles related to Judaism, and I don't think that the answer is just that people associated with every other tendency in Judaism need to be here pushing equally hard. I don't think people will be able to work this through without arbitration. - Jmabel | Talk 18:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Atama

I am not an expert on Judaism, I have no real-life ties to any part of the religion and no opinion of various sects or philosophies within Judaism, and frankly not enough knowledge to form any opinion. To be honest, I've never heard of Chabad on- or off-wiki before the conflict of interest noticeboard complaint was issued, and I haven't had the need, time, or desire to learn anything about it since then. I am only involved in that I am a regular contributor to that noticeboard, and I've seen religion-based COI complaints raised multiple times. In my opinion, which is an opinion backed up by the majority of people I've seen commenting on that same board, religion is rarely a cause for a COI complaint, nor should it be. Nor should race, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation. If a person has a close connection to a religious organization (a particular church or temple, for example, or perhaps a commercial entity that supports a religious position) then such a claim may be valid. But discriminating against editors because of their religious beliefs should be a practice avoided by Misplaced Pages.

I made that assertion at the noticeboard, and I'll repeat it now. I asked IZAK whether or not any of the parties he complained about were promoting specific Chabad web sites they were known to be affiliated with, or displaying other clear conflicts of interest and he stated that they were not. I feel that the COI complaint was without merit and it was unfortunate that it caused so much undue drama at the noticeboard.

Having said that, there may indeed be an unbalanced amount of pro-Chabad POV being presented by certain editors. I reviewed a few of the initial examples that IZAK gave, and found little to substantiate his claims of POV-pushing or conspiracy. But there was a lot of uncivil pushback from the "other side" in the noticeboard discussion, including a characterization from Debresser that IZAK's complaints were "insane" which was supported by Zsero who called him "hysterical". Most of the other editors in the discussion seemed to be able to keep things civil.

Essentially, there may be some validity to POV complaints, no validity to COI complaints, and a number of problems with personal attacks and a general lack of civility. -- Atama頭 18:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Yossiea

I just want to say that I was involved in several "disputes" on wikipedia with regards to editing. The first one was with a user Daniel575 and his sockpuppets. The articles were "his" and any changes met with fierce resistance and name calling. Eventually, it led many to stay away from "his" articles and let him just have control over it. I think in many respects the same thing is happening with Chabad related articles. When people try to edit an article, it just gets too much for us to either defend or to deflect the hostility. Eventually, people will just forget it and let them run the show, which is what they want. Yossiea 14:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Durova

Agreeing with Atama about the distinction between point of view and conflict of interest. Conflict of interest is not a function of personal belief: I once met a lawyer who defended tobacco companies from lawsuits back in the days when the industry won those cases. He was a nonsmoker who deplored smoking, but the job paid well.

In 2007 the COFS arbitration articulated that organizations bear an inherent responsibility for the appropriate use of their computers and Internet connections even when that equipment is operated by volunteers. Two years later that led to ArbCom blocking IP addresses from one religious organization. In that situation a tangible conflict of interest existed that was confirmed by originating IP addresses of unlogged edits, by checkuser evidence, and by the statements of the editors themselves: they were using official organizational equipment to edit articles about that organization. If those volunteers had been editing from home then their conduct would still have deserved individual sanction but COI would not have entered into it.

There appears to be no reason to believe that these editors are employed the Kehot Publication Society or a public relations firm, etc. If evidence exists of conflict of interest in the conventional sense then please do accept the proposed case immediately. But if no connections of that sort are apparent then this can return to the community. No formal dispute resolution has been attempted. There is nothing urgent here to require immediate arbitration; other than misfiled COIN discussions it appears that this has only come to the general community's attention through a single ANI thread. No wonder the community hasn't solved it yet.

There will be plenty of conflicts this year that the Committee won't be able to avoid. This one doesn't need to open this week, and may not need to open at all. Durova 21:39, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

• I'm thinking of removing the "on Misplaced Pages" part of the title unless there is some good reason to keep it, since it's assumed if some topic is coming to arbcom, it is the topic's existence on WP that is the subject of the request. MBisanz 09:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

  Feel free - your rationale is right Fritzpoll (talk) 10:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

  Ok, I went ahead and renamed it to something that I hope makes it clear it deals with editors who are members of the Chabad movement and not the Chabad article. MBisanz 10:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (5/0/0/1)

• Accept. I normally demand more pursuit of dispute resolution options, as arbitration is the last resort. However, indications that a matter cannot be resolved at the community level are a consideration as well. I am convinced that this matter requires the attention of the Arbitration Committee. I believe the community has had difficulty in parsing the topic and the behavior of involved editors. I also believe that arbitration, reputation of the process considered, would produce significantly less confusion, consternation, and drama overall than kicking this back to the community. I would see the scope as conflicts involving Lubavitcher topics, broadly construed, and the related behavioral issues. There are a number of conduct allegations that need to be examined, sorted out, and provided with a final determination. This is not inclusive of the broader Hasidim topic area, except as Chabad-related issues have been a focal point. Similarly, it is not inclusive of the broader conservative (small "c") Judaism topic area, except as above. Vassyana (talk) 16:46, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Accept I would have preferred more DR, but there's something we probably need to look at here. SirFozzie (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Accept. There's some indication of severe behavioral concerns, and what links are provided above don't indicate that the community is having, or will have, much success in dealing with this. Hersfold 17:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I've sifted through the COI/N subpage and read all statements here in detail but, try as I might, I cannot find anywhere in them a basis on which I could recuse. However, I'm more concerned than my colleagues with the lack of formal dispute resolution (i.e. not noticeboards) to date. Is there a reason that a conduct RFC surrounding the COI and POV-pushing accusations would not be expected to clarify this matter somewhat? Steve Smith (talk) 21:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• Accept. This is a little light on prior resolution attempts, but the complexity of the situation leads me to believe that a case would be the least confusing way to handle the situation and provide the community with some tools going forward. I also agree with Vassyana about the limiting the scope to Chabad-related issues and the behavior problems that have been noted. Shell 15:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
• Accept - I see no agreement to collegial editing amongst this group, making this a suitable behavioural issue to warrant arbitration. More DR would be nice, but the reality is that the community isn't having much luck with this issues. Giving the community some tools to handle bloc disputes would be a good outcome of this case. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
• Accept, am on the opinion that eventually the behavioural issues will still wind up here anyway if we were to pass through DR. - Mailer Diablo 03:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)