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| ::]: I would urge you to be polite with ] anyways. He has already reported many Albanians to admins and the only thing that you will obtain, is that he will patrol himself all the Albania-related topics. To the English users ] will just look like a province of ] mistakenly having an independent country and that's not what we want. I have noticed that ] is an expert in making very good use of all the sources of Misplaced Pages to make his point. | ::]: I would urge you to be polite with ] anyways. He has already reported many Albanians to admins and the only thing that you will obtain, is that he will patrol himself all the Albania-related topics. To the English users ] will just look like a province of ] mistakenly having an independent country and that's not what we want. I have noticed that ] is an expert in making very good use of all the sources of Misplaced Pages to make his point. | ||
| ::]: I would urge you to read this and be nicer to newcomers. I am a newcomer as opposed to you and so are a lot of new editors. Making their lives difficult without letting them contribute to Misplaced Pages articles and without letting them ] will make Misplaced Pages a poorer place to be. Again I would like to remind you not to make massive reverts in ]. Thanks!] (])--Sulmues 15:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC) | ::]: I would urge you to read this and be nicer to newcomers. I am a newcomer as opposed to you and so are a lot of new editors. Making their lives difficult without letting them contribute to Misplaced Pages articles and without letting them ] will make Misplaced Pages a poorer place to be. Again I would like to remind you not to make massive reverts in ]. Thanks!] (])--Sulmues 15:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :Thnk you Sulmues , I will make sure I calm down and not find out where he lives and get down there with my baseball bat. I guess this will not be in the Misplaced Pages spirit we are trying to promote here. So welcome Athenian to the Albania page and be real careful of what you write.--] (]) 02:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| == Religious numbers == | == Religious numbers == | ||
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Major revision to religious statistics
I am writing this message again as I know there will be a big bru ha ha when it’s eventfully published, I realise it’s a touchy subject for a small minority. Please read carefully and considerately, I will put up a template of what I will be writing, others can add or take as they wish
In light of the recent demographic study carried out by Pew for over 3 years and just released, it states that Muslims account for 79.9% with all other religions and affiliations accounting for 19.1%. This is backed up by a 2008 report by the Ministry of Statistics of Albania as well as Unicef. Furthermore 95% of the Muslims in Albania are Sunni and less than 5% are Shia/Bektashi
I will leave this message on here for about a week before changing the article. The sources I am providing are http://www.childinfo.org/mics3_surveys.html and http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=451. You will need to download the pdf's.
I believe these are the most up to date and sources as well as unbiased. The statistics provided should not be confused with how much of the population is actually practicing that is a moot point. It’s to do with religious affiliation. Furthermore the source that has been provided for the 9% claim is not verifiable at all!! I remember seeing the link, and it did not seem to be publicised on any official website, and looked like it had been drawn up by kids. I believe what I have provided are the most authoritative and reliable statistics to date. I hope people don’t delete it when I change it, unless there is actually evidence of studies carried out that are more authoritative
Thank you
--Elias101 (talk) 23:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Elias. The main problem with religion in Albania has to do with people actually practicing their religious beliefs. In the current article there are sentences that show how the population perceives itself and you can add your references there. Most Albanians (as your sources clearly show 79.9%) see themselves as Muslim. However US State Department says: No reliable data were available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates ranged from 25 to 40 percent - this makes it very difficult to give an exact number. I think all this is very well mentioned on the article itself, although after some recent edits it could need a bit of copy-editing. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok I have made the changes, backed with sources by 3 organizations that have done a study on religion in Albania.
Anna there is no inherent contradiction between religious affiliation and active participation; as such I have left the statistic that states 20-40% religious participation. People can see themselves as Muslim/Christian and not necessarily practice that does not make then any less of a Muslim/Christian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elias101 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
--Elias101 (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Elias your edit seems to lack objectivity. Your sources do not show anything about a research done on the issue. It shows research done on other issues, they just used statistics that seemed suitable - you are referring to those statistics. Furthermore, it would be preferable if other (earlier) sources would not be removed.
- There is no major research done on Albanian religion. And yes, there is something called agnostic theist: ...It is possible to be a Christian agnostic, an Islamic agnostic.... I believe that a further more elaborate discussion would be appropriate before rushing into edits. Thanks for your efforts, please continue this discussion without further edits, until a sound solution is found. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Anna I don’t know whether you read the sources especially the one done by unicef and the ministry of statistics of Albania, a more in-depth look will provided the answers you require, reading to the end (or skipping) will provide you with the methodology that is used.
I don’t see how my article lacks objectify I clearly stated this is about religious affiliation and not how people actually go to the mosque/church or lack of it. And yes you are correct that "there is something called Agnostic theist agnostic theist: ...It is possible to be a Christian agnostic, an Islamic agnostic...", so do you intend to make a point with this or is it just a straw man a red herring?
Furthermore there is no statistical proof of how many people practice their faith in Albania however your reversion (and I presume your support of the statistics) is not based on any factual proof. "One survey found" is not a material fact. Any chance that you will provide us with which survey this is? Or will we get a knee jerk reaction?
I will reiterate myself, hopefully not in ad infinitum.
This is what I will post:
According to the National Institute of Statistics for Albania, working with UNICEF as well as the 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, in what has arguably been the most detailed and up to date study of its kind, found that 79.9% of the population considered themselves Muslim. Other denominations including “Orthodox, Catholic and others” make up 21.1% of the Albanian population. Furthermore the 2009 study by Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that less than 5% of Muslims in Albania are Bektashi (Shia)
* 79.9%: Muslims Sunni, of which less than 5% are Bektashi(Shia)
* 21.1: Orthodox Christians Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholics and others
....
The Communist regime that took control of Albania after World War II suppressed religious observance and institutions and entirely banned religion to the point where Albania was officially declared to be the world's first atheist state. Religious freedom has returned to Albania since the regime's change in 1992. Albanian Muslim (79.9%) are found throughout the country whereas Orthodox Christians are concentrated in the south and Roman Catholics (21.15) are found in the north of the country. No reliable data are available on active participation in formal religious services, and estimates range from 25% to 40%.
Previously the religious figures in Albania stood at 70% Muslim, 20% Catholic and 10% Orthodox. Although these statics were based on estimates from pre-1967 information. There are about 4000 active Jehovahs witnesses in Albania.
As you may notice plenty of time has been allotted for discussion and contribution, how about some actual contribution, is this so offends your highly regarded objective standards. I
These statistics are not about:
1) How many people practice their faith 2) What deeper philosophical categories they would put themselves in if they had to write a book about their spirituality.
This is about: Religious affiliation i.e. how people see themselves prima facie. Nothing more and nothing less.
--Elias101 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you Elias for your detailed explanation. First of all, I read the references that you sent in depth, and as I said, UNICEF was not a direct survey on religion, and the other source cites the first one. In fact statistics that show similar results (with the ones you presented) are present in the current form of the article. I think stating that 80% of Albanians are Muslim is not a real objective explanation of Albanian religion. I agree that this is a really complex issue. So saying that 70% are atheist is also not very realistic. But explaining the meaning of agnostic theist in the article would help explain the situation. Also this section need more work on history. As Albanian people are known to be indifferent to religion 12345. To wrap it up: Saying Albanians are 80% muslim, when this reliable source shows that there is very little participation on religious activities, is really premature. Until an official survey is made on religion in Albania, I think we should try and make a realistic view on the issue, having in mind my above points and that we are all neutral contributors without tendencies. I believe we can propose smaller changes for now! —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree with you Anna. It's not a black and white issue, especially in Albania, to simply state numbers like 70, 20, 10. kedadial 13:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
The current figures of religion in Albania express the country as multi religious Muslim 38.8%; Roman Catholic 16.7%; non religious 16.6%; Eastern Orthodox 16.1%"Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.--Artemisa ne adenice (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
FixedBoth figures are there now. End of discussion. Pew and Oxford have been represented. It should be INSTAT to say how many muslims there are in Albania, and it hasn't done so since 1929.sulmues--Sulmues 21:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Religion in ALbania.
Ok , let's start with this problem. Someone says that in Albania 79.9% of population is Islam (Sunni and Bektashis? or what?) and tha other 20,1% are Christian (What? Orthodox or catholic, or maybe protestants?) , and its not written in the link. 779.9+20.1= 100%. It's impossible, because no contry has this percentage of religious people, and not in Albania, the first atheist state. So, if you do not want to spread disinformation, mus think a bit before writing. Today, 60-75% of Albanians do not practice any religion. The other are Muslim , Catholic and Orthodox. But you can't write in all pages of demography of albania only. And, finaly, in Albania there are other minor religions, and according to the data that someone has written here, there don't exist. Please, correct the religion in Albania because it's a false propaganda of users that doesn't respect neutrality of Wiki. Thank you! --Albopedian (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- The 79.9% statistic was conducted by the Pew Research Center and is the most recent study on the subject (conducted within the past few months). This source is completely neutral and definately not propaganda. We can't just disregard it because you don't agree with it. The idea that most Albanians are nonreligious is also mentioned in the religion section. --Local hero 16:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- As a neutral editor, I see this as a very concerning problem- one source says a majority of Albania's population is non-religious, while Pew says 79.9% of the population is Islamic. Which source is more correct? Hard to prove... the only way you can resolve this is to present both sources, plain and simple. Monsieurdl 01:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- This is very easy to explain anecdotally, although I don't know if I could give you a source. Most Albanians are nominally Muslim but are uninterested in either the practices or the doctrines of that religion. So the figures differ because of different definitions of "Muslim": a) a person who if asked their religion, says "Muslim", but probably doesn't do or believe anything as a result of that identifier except a general belief in God, or b) a person who believes in the doctrines of Islam and performs the religious duties of a Muslim. The latter are definitely a minority in Albania, while the former are by far the majority. Again, this is just my anecdotal experience, unsupported by systematic research. Kenji Yamada (talk) 01:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I put all the three options. It is right now? I think that we must do the same in Religion in Albania and other pages. Thank you!--Albopedian (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Fixed I believe the best version so far has just been written. If there are no censuses since 1929 the foreign countries can make a lot of mess with their "studies" (how come the PEW gives 79% muslims and Oxford gives 39%?): it should be INSTAT to give an answer but the govt of albania doesn't want to do that census (s'e ha ate koqe ulliri, ;-).sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 21:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Patos Marinzas
The article has nothing about Patos Marinzas, the biggest on-shore oil field of Europe.Agre22 (talk) 01:45, 8 November 2009 (UTC)agre22
- It is Patos / Marinza stgupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.88.57 (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Semi-protection request made
I have made a plea for semi-protection of this article due to the high number of IP vandalism edits. My request can be seen here. Monsieurdl 22:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Arnavutluk
I was surprised to find out that there is no mention of the Ottoman/Turkish name of the country in this nice and long article. At least the etymology section should have included something. After all, Arnavutluk and Arnavut (Albanians) have been a very visible if not prominent part of Ottoman history for centuries. A sizable Arnavut community in Turkey still recognize and identify their roots.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Murat! I was not aware that Albania was called Arnavutlk during the Turkish presence. Could you please provide a map to show Arnavutluk within the Ottoman Empire? I'll make sure to update the article. As a matter of fact many improvements are due here, but unfortunately many albanian users have been banned. If you ban too many users of a small people, that's what you get. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 16:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Shingen
Is it not an important port city in Albania? I know it may have different names, but could not see any reference anywhere. I made a little stub (San Giovanni di Medua) which needs much input.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- You may be thinking of Shëngjin, which today is a small town near Lezha. The only port cities in Albania are Durrës and Vlora. Kenji Yamada (talk) 07:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Eh?
Albania, along with Croatia, received in 3 April 2008 an invitation to join NATO. Albania and Croatia joined NATO on 2 April 2008 becoming the 27th and 28th members of the alliance
Looks like these countries joined NATO (2nd April) before they were invited (3rd April)? I know these small countries are eager to join NATO, but eager enough to defy the logic of time?Gabr-el 00:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- Albania and Croatio joined Nato in April 2009. Nothing unlogic here. --Albinfo (talk) 14:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Prehistory section
The prehistory section is dreadful. First, it has nothing to do with prehistory. Second, it is a badly written list of archeological sites from various historical periods (e.g. Buthrotum) that again have nothing to do with prehistory. Third it contains empty meaningless statements to the effect of "The fact that history and legend afford no record of the arrival of the Albanians in the Balkan Peninsula has rendered the question of their origin a particularly difficult one to answer." Brilliant. The way I see it, there is nothing to salvage, so unless anyone objects, I will remove it. --Athenean (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's been five days since my previous posting. Since no one has objected, I am removing the section per WP:SILENCE and WP:SS. There is nothing in there that has anything to do with Albania's prehistory or that is not repeated elsewhere in the article. --Athenean (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hey Greek , hands off Albanian History or pay back on the Greece page.--Lceliku (talk) 20:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's funny how I waited 5 MONTHS (not days, months) to build consensus on putting the unique infobox in Kosovo article and , had a consensus reached, and then when I made the change per WP:SILENCE and WP:SS, I was banned because Athenean filed an WP:ANI report on my "disruptive behavior". Now I cannot edit on Kosovo related articles, and for that matter even on Albanian Alps because Athenean has reported me again in breaking the ban. According to Athenean when I talk about the Albanian Alps for some reason they are related to Kosovo. He reported me here yesterday.
- Lceliku: I would urge you to be polite with Athenean anyways. He has already reported many Albanians to admins and the only thing that you will obtain, is that he will patrol himself all the Albania-related topics. To the English users Albania will just look like a province of Greece mistakenly having an independent country and that's not what we want. I have noticed that Athenean is an expert in making very good use of all the sources of Misplaced Pages to make his point.
- Athenean: I would urge you to read this and be nicer to newcomers. I am a newcomer as opposed to you and so are a lot of new editors. Making their lives difficult without letting them contribute to Misplaced Pages articles and without letting them be bold will make Misplaced Pages a poorer place to be. Again I would like to remind you not to make massive reverts in Albania. Thanks!sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 15:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thnk you Sulmues , I will make sure I calm down and not find out where he lives and get down there with my baseball bat. I guess this will not be in the Misplaced Pages spirit we are trying to promote here. So welcome Athenian to the Albania page and be real careful of what you write.--Lceliku (talk) 02:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.164.4.52 (talk)
Religious numbers
I made useful changes to the religious statistics here: because the numbers in the reference was incorrectly used and added so I had to foot the numbers properly. It took me some minutes to do that.
But here comes athenean and reverts the WHOLE THING with other things as well and makes a mess in the article. Of course his numbers in the article for religious statistics won't add up to the right amounts that appear in the source. . Athenean, please do the math and you will see that your numbers don't make any sense. And stop whispering to the admins to ban all the albanians that you find on your way, otherwise you'll get IP editors getting back at you. All you'll get is to ask for protection and have no life. sulmues (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC).
- What I find most disturbing is that people are even suggesting basing the religion statistics on little-known dubious sources, while the sources most commonly used for the same purpose on other articles are not even mentioned. According to Britannica:
In the early 21st century about seven-tenths of the Albanian population was nominally Muslim, more than half of them Sunni Muslims and the next largest group being the Bektashi sect. Those who identified with Eastern Orthodoxy constituted about one-fifth of the population, and those associated with Roman Catholicism constituted about one-tenth. Muslims are spread throughout the country, although they particularly dominate the centre. Roman Catholics have settled primarily in the northern part of the country, mainly in the city of Shkodër, while Orthodox Christians are prominent in the southern districts of Gjirokastër, Korçë, Berat, and Vlorë.
- The CIA World Factbook also repeats the traditional figures (Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%) as "estimates".
- While I do understand and respect the POV of certain Albanians to underestimate the extent of traditional/nominal Islam in Albania believing that by doing so they are presenting Albania as more "Western" or "European", and the point of even doing so is in itself debatable, these facts should not be removed from the article. I suggest including all available sources.--Ptolion (talk) 21:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point Ptolion. There is definitely a concerted effort to portray Albania as "Christian" and therefore "Western" and "European" as possible. There is a very simple way to deal with this, however. What is sourced to reliable sources can stay, what is sourced to dubious sources goes in the trash. Simple as that. There is absolutely no need to respect or tolerate any sort of POV-pushing. We have ways of dealing with that as well. --Athenean (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- The situation is actually much worse than that. There are deliberate attempts at deception here. I noticed that the article says the World Christian Encyclopedia published in 2001 by the Oxford University Press. Vol 1: p 51 says that roughly 39% of Albanians are Muslim, and 35% being Christians. However, when I check the citations provided, neither of them has anything to do with the "World Christian Encyclopedia". One is from some website , the other is from the website of the Albanian consulate in Milan . Whoever inserted these mentioned the Oxford University Press in a deliberate attempt to mislead and cast an air of respectability on these dubious sources. I will consequently remove them and replace them with the CIA World Factbook and Encyclopedia Britannica. --Athenean (talk) 00:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Now you have the reference directly from the World Christian Encyclopedia with full isbn. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 01:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's an improvement, although do you think you could include a link to the citation? It's impossible to verify the way you have provided it. In general, the World Christian Encyclopedia should be treated with caution as a source, as it is known to be pro-Christian and consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets. I am not terribly interested in this debate, so I will leave it there for now, but that is something to keep in mind. --Athenean (talk) 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not going to touch this any longer either. I really can't provide a citation for the fact that 1929 is really the last year when Albania had an official religious census, so it's ok if you take it out: it's unsupported, even though I'm sure about it. Now World Christian Encyclopedia might be biased, but I could argue that also the PEW research is also biased. Bottom line the company is a think tank that works for the US government. And so does the CIA (that refers to the 1929 data). I could argue that the interest of the USA is to depict Albania like as a muslim country because it wants to make it an example of a democratic muslim country for other muslim theocratic countries. That's why the truth might be closer to what the World Christian Encyclopedia is saying. Furthemore there are 1200 christian churches in ALbania and 500 mosques, what does that tell you? sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 16:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
- MICS3 AlbaniaFinal Report2005 Eng National Institute of Statistics for Albania with UNICEF
- 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
- 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
- MICS3 AlbaniaFinal Report2005 Eng National Institute of Statistics for Albania with UNICEF
- 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
- MICS3 AlbaniaFinal Report2005 Eng National Institute of Statistics for Albania with UNICEF
- Cite error: The named reference
International Religious Freedom Report 2007was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - "2008 Jehovah's Witnesses Worldwide Status Report". Watch Tower. Retrieved 2009-09-27.
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