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Grammar

I corrected usages of commas, definite articles, and indefinite articles in sentences, and tried to clarify some of the more poorly written areas. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Rickyrab, for the meticulous proof-reading. --ilgiz (talk) 22:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Latynina's claims

Yulia Latynina recently spoke with criticism of Anderson's article at Echo Moskvy:

Not sure what article does this info fit the best -- GQ, Russian apartmtnt bombings, or the Theories, but it's certainly interesting. Latynina is not a person who thinks favourably about the Kremlin or Putin, rather than that, she counted among their harshest opponents.

ellol (talk) 09:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Latynina belongs under analysts. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Berezovski's Conspiracy Theory

It should be mentioned that all of the people claiming that the Russian Government was involved in the bombings, (instead of being too inept to prevent them as a result of Yeltsin's "Democratic Reforms") all have ties to Boris Berezovski, who claimed that he wants to topple Putin via a revolution.

It should also be mentioned that Berezovski has a history of trying to frame Putin for everything under the Sun, including Basaev asking Putin invade Dagestan, but stop at the Terek River, before reaching Chechnya. I have discussed why that is ridiculous here, http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)#Berezovki.27s_Conspiracy_Theory.2C_aka_why_we_all_should_learn_Georgraphy, and interested users can find the link. Additionally, Berezovski tried to blame Putin, (not Kadyrov) for the assasination of Anna Politkovskaya. Of course people like Berezovski don't need proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)#Berezovki.27s_Conspiracy_Theory.2C_aka_why_we_all_should_learn_Georgraphy. And of course who can forget the Berezovski clique blaming Russia for daring to defend herself. Those statements were so dead wrong, that even Rupert Murdoch withdrew his statements.

Why the frame up? Well here's an article: http://www.siberianlight.net/berezovsky-says-he-wants-to-overthrow-putin-by-force/. Berezovsky says he wants to overthrow Putin – by force. It'd be funny if it wasn't true. Of course the rabble rousers will yell "that's a Russian Newspaper!" How's the Guardian for you? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/13/topstories3.russia I am plotting a new Russian revolution. London exile Berezovsky says force necessary to bring down President Putin. Quoting the article: "We need to use force to change this regime," he said. "It isn't possible to change this regime through democratic means. There can be no change without force, pressure." Asked if he was effectively fomenting a revolution, he said: "You are absolutely correct."

Wouldn't a person plotting to remove Putin from power, or Medvedev from power who came out of Putin's United Russia, blame Putin for everything under the Sun? Why are certain editors using Misplaced Pages to promote conspiracy theories? BTW, Misplaced Pages has something about Conspiracy Theories. Something about "not making conspiracies look more credible than they already are. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Remember of the text just a single section above; that gal Yulia Latynina said: "Now I'll briefly say that I believe that the version that the explosions were done by FSB is not just absurd. I think that this version was devised for some purpose by Boris Abramovich Berezovsky after he was refused of the power." ellol (talk) 10:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Я стала читать эту статью и немножко обалдела. Например, я прочла в этой статье, что чеченцы не взрывали дома, потому что им это не выгодно. С таким же успехом можно сказать, что Кремль, видимо, не имеет никакого отношения к запрещению статьи г-на Андерсена, потому что это же ему не выгодно. Не говоря уж о том, что это точно не Кремль отравил Литвиненко, ему же это не выгодно. Или, например, я прочла в статье г-на Андерсена, что из членов парламентской комиссии, которые занимались расследованием взрывов в Москве, двое погибли. I love how she flips the terms, and argues for the other side. That is sexy. In terms of argumentation.

Basically (for the non-Russian speaking crowd), she takes the argument made by Berezovsky and Co. that "Basaev and Co. aren't going to blow up the buildings, because it's bad PR" and turns it around saying "Kremlin won't be poisoning Litvinenko, as it is bad PR". And according to that logic, neither US, nor USSR, would be toppling governments, as it is also bad PR. Nor was Vietnam invaded, cause that is really bad PR. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I can also flip the argument, and claim that "Berezovsky and Co. would blame the Kremlin for the bombings, because it is great PR for them". Of course on this basis, the argument fails. But adding the fact that Berezovsky wants to overthrow Putin via a revolution, (as if Russia didn't have enough blood spilled already,) suddenly the argument, supplemented by actual evidence, starts to make sense. What Latuynina pointed out, is that Berezovsky's argument has no evidence, except hearsay. To quote one of the many lawyers: "Objection. Hearsay is not evidence." And to summarize Misplaced Pages: "a conspiracy theory should not be treated as anything, except a conspiracy theory, and Misplaced Pages should not be used to give it credibility".

An interesting tactic I noticed here, is that some users, trying in vain to make Berezovsky's argument for him, claim that the people who call conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory, are really KGB agents, and if KGB agents are suppressing it, clearly it must be right. The problem with that tactic, is that there is no proof showing that Wikipedians who call a conspiracy theory - by its name, a conspiracy theory, are KGB agents. The color blue contains shades of blue. Does saying this make me a secret service agent? Then why does calling a conspiracy theory, what it is, make others KGB agents?

(Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) Reading certain commentaries, if true, would make me tremble, because according to these commentaries, half of the people editing Russia-related articles are KGB agents, and the other half are CIA agents; cause you know, bin Laden is caught, Umarov is toast, and KGB with the CIA have nothing to do, but edit Misplaced Pages all day.

Seriously, I know conspiracy theories are exciting, I get it, but come on, fellow Wikipedians, you know who you are, enough with the dirty tactics; start living up to your name. If you got a great argument, make it. If not, then don't spent your time crafting up more and more conspiracy theories, and using dirty tactics to claim that these theories are not conspiracy theories. So far it's only been a few people, and I hope the dirty tactics trend doesn't continue. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 00:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of the Sources, aka me pointing out where some people flat out lie

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/SatterHouseTestimony2007.pdf

1. Putin was never head of the secret service. He was (is?) a Col. of the KGB. That's not the same as head of the KGB.

2. Criminal Division of property was actually subject to re-examination.

3. The Second Chechen War didn't achieve popularity overnight.

4. Article states that bribes grew ten times in value; article doesn't mention the inflation, nor that the amount of bribes lessened, nor that the Russian standard of living, at the very least doubled under Putin.

5. Article confuses WWII with Stalin's Purges, which were pre-WWII. This is why historians study those thingies called dates.

6. Attack against Estonia was done primarily by Russian hackers and their allies. The article fails to mention that the attack came in response to Estonia's "Hero of USSR Removal Program".

7. Russia offered to cooperate with Litvinenko's murder, if the trial was to take place in Russia. Article doesn't mention this, instead it portrays Russia as "refusing to cooperate". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

This particular source is used only once in the article. What exactly do you propose to do? Alæxis_¿question? 09:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Find an NPOV replacement that actually gets its facts right. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 10:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Re:4. Russian per capita GDP, which is what is usually taken as a standard of living grew by about 60% under Putin (not "at the very least doubled" which would be 100%+). This implies a growth rate of about 4.5-4.7% per year. This is actually nothing to sneeze at - I think basically you're failing to realize how big a doubling of living standard actually is (maybe, just maybe, if you can trust the official data, China's the only country that has ever managed to pull off a doubling within a decade - the 90's). But it doesn't help to be sloppy, with this point, or the others.radek (talk) 10:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually whether we look at GDP per capita at constant prices (www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Per-Capita.aspx?Symbol=RUB) or GDP per capita by PPP we see about a twofold increase. The growth was greater than 4.5-4.7%, besides the population became less. Alæxis_¿question? 11:16, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It probably depends on which set of figures you look at. I was using Penn World Tables which is the dataset most relied on academically. Growth of GDP per capita already embodies changes to population (% change in GDP per capita = % change in total GDP - % change in population). I think the doubling would be an upper bound estimate.radek (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

What's probably going on here is the difference in PPP adjustment - basically during Putin's time, in addition to other factors, Russia also benefited from a substantial improvement in its terms of trade, specifically with the price of oil. So yes, it does seem that in PPP adjusted terms, it grew at close to 100%.radek (talk) 23:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Guys, the population decreased by 3-4 million, out of roughly 141-145 million. Taking that decrease, 4/141 is a minuscule factor, that's roughly 3 percent. When the Standard of Living doubles, you are looking at a 100 percent increase. Using the table that Radek suggested, the PPP, from 1999 to 2007, increased from 5.32 to 15.71. The real GDP increased at an astonishing rate, averaging over 7 percent. The distribution evened out. Irrespective of the three percent (at most) population change, the GDP still increased by over 100%. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 10:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Galkin's Testimony

Considering that Galkin's Testimony was extracted under torture, why are we using it? I mean heck, if someone's beating me up 24/7 and gives me a text to read to stop the beatings, I'll read the text. So would anyone else. Even James Bond, (in the movie with the North Korean thingy in the air) broke under torture. (M admitted that he was "leaking intel".) No one can withstand torture, especially if it's done over a long period of time. You can force your brain to forget the information, so torture confessions often don't help Recon, but in terms of forcing a person to read a testimony, that's pre-written, it's not complicated at all. Which other Misplaced Pages Articles sink to the level of using "testimony" obtained under torture? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What?! It's absolutely inadmissible in the world practice. Quoting his evidence here, we effectively support torture. I strongly vote for removal of his evidence. ellol (talk) 12:50, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Three Worlds Gone Mad, Robert Young Pelton. Good. The piece from that book about the captive officer's testimony must be translated into Russian. What the barbarism. ellol (talk) 12:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

From Galkin's interview to Novaya Gazeta:

After I got to ours, I was immediately put into hospital. Half a year was spent for medical treatment. I described what happened with me to my commanders. After the hospital, when I learned writing anew (yes, it's exactly so, I had to learn walking, had to learn writing, and my friend had to learn talking -- he stuttered too much), I reported everything in a short document.

...

It's a fate that we stayed alive. When I passed a medical investigation, got an x-ray, doctors revealed that four ribs are broken. During the captivity they healed a bit with displacement of a rib fracture inside a lung. The jaw was broken three times, head traumatized, arms shot through... With my health condition I couldn't continue serving in the Armed Forced. Got dismissed to reserve in Summber 2002 after a rehabilitation course. And psychologically... I would just like to forget it all. And as such things can't be forgotten, I try to imagine it happened not with me.

ellol (talk) 13:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, I only want to add to your comment, that as Galkin is alive today, using the evidence obtained from him under torture in this article may lead to further traumatizing the man. (Imagine, he opens English wikipedia with this article, and sees the "evidence" he was tortured to say. That's horrific.) ellol (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention that the HRW, which according to Misplaced Pages is a valid source, states that evidence extracted under torture cannot be used. Evidence extracted under torture is inadmissible in civilized countries. We must defend Misplaced Pages from becoming as accepting of evidence, as the North Korean Courts! Where is Radio Free Europe's outrage on this? I cannot believe that they missed it, only because the testimony extracted was anti-Russian. If that's true, that would be an atrocious thing to do! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel very uncomfortable removing well-referenced relevant information that is widely used by proponents of a point of view. On the other hand the text labeled words extracted under torture as "volunteer interview" and only then added that after escaping from his prison Galkin changed his "confession" saying that he was tortured. IMHO we should restore the section changing a few words in the first paragraph so to emphasize that this "confession" was extracted under torture and has very little reliability. We might want to add a few details of how exactly he was tortured (in the notes) so the reader would get an idea Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

So you are ok with testimony extracted under torture if it is well-referenced? Doesn't torture contradict being well-referenced, as, when you are under torture you will confess to anything? In the Salem Witch Trials, Mary confessed that John was pure evil, and that testimony was very well referenced. It was allowed to convict John, who later turned out to be innocent. I don't see why we should follow that mistaken precedent, why we should quote others, when they said something against their will. What is the difference between someone, say Galkin, confessing under torture, or someone simply misquoting Galkin? Both are false, and a waste of the reader's time. Yet you propose allowing one, but not the other. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's pretty much clear, that Chechens forced him to say that his interview was "volunteered". But it's likely that he had at that moment broken ribs or arms shot through -- what the interviewer did not care to check. During the interview his Chechen captors were present (you can see that from Pelton's interview), so he had to say what pleased them.

It's not a merely Misplaced Pages rules issue. But if we leave the "evidence", we collectively are to held responsibility for extending the mental sufferings of the living person who suffered physically and mentally much worse than you or I can ever imagine.

I emphasize that Galkin is not an acting officer now. He retired from the Armed forces in 2002 -- that means, he is a civilian. I think it's the general respect of mercy that we shouldn't prevent that person from living a normal life now. The mention of his "evidence" in a political article may actually hurt the living person -- himself. Imagine he opens this article and sees that "evidence" -- what would he think, that people in the world support the torture applied to him?

But we are not the enemies of civilians who did not committ any crime! ellol (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I see no point in removing the references about the rendition. The rules only require to verify the facts of publishing. So referring to the rendition directly is not allowed, but including references to the publications about the rendition and presenting their summaries is OK. The WP:NPOV policy mandates to stay away from monopolizing the truth. Only published statements and contradictions between them matter. As for the biographic limits, I did not see that Galkin's personality was denigrated, taking into account the possibility of tortures. Whether the Misplaced Pages editors are extending the mental suffering of Galkin or of the relatives of the bombings' victims who might feel betrayed by the state secret service has little to do with libel. --ilgiz (talk) 15:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Publishing tortured testimony is by its very definition unverifiable. How can you even be talking about truth and NPOV, if it's crystal clear that the testimony was obtained under torture? Any testimony obtained under torture isn't going to be NPOV, and violated WP:NPOV. It's also not the truth, it's complete bullshit. And about Galkin being betrayed by the state secret service, that's your own original research, please see WP:OR. Agents get captured and tortured, that's part of the job. This has nothing to do with NPOV, as how can you be NPOV, if you are told what to say at gunpoint? "Read this document, or we shoot your kid, but say it's NPOV, k?" HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Ilgiz, do you think that testimonies obtained with the use of torture are valid? ellol (talk) 18:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on this. The editors' beliefs or "common sense" should be irrelevant in representing the summaries of references. --ilgiz (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the use of torture to obtain evidence is the most disguisting behaviour, and using the data obtained with torture in a Misplaced Pages article really stinks. That's my opinion, you can have yours. ellol (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I have a very strong and firm belief that common sense should not be irrelevant. And here, common sense, dictates, that a testimony obtained under torture isn't NPOV. Editors must strive for NPOV. Thus, we cannot use testimony obtained under torture, irrespective if it's pro-Berezovski or pro-Tooth Fairy. How can one speak from a neutral point of view, if he or she is being tortured? And this is the first time I see Common Sense challenged on Misplaced Pages. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The WP:VERIFY policy talks about verifying the fact that the reference was published. Verifying the facts presented in the publication and tossing publications deemed untrue is beyond Misplaced Pages's policies. --ilgiz (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

From the policy: The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is one of Misplaced Pages's core content policies, along with Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore familiarize themselves with all three.

Is testimony extracted under torture NPOV? No. Is testimony extracted under torture reliable? No. You must have all three, not just one. Here you only have verifiability, and the other elements for inclusion are simply not met. Quoting from Misplaced Pages's policies: "they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another". And yet here you are doing exactly that. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The NPOV policy refers to the relationship between publications and their editorial summaries. Your understanding seems to imply that NPOV is focused on dissonances between the facts and their interpretation in the publications. As for the reliability criteria, again, they are about the authors of the publications not the facts or persons covered by the publications. --ilgiz (talk) 06:29, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is WP:NPOV - Neutral point of view (NPOV) is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Misplaced Pages. All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. Do you honestly believe that a view extracted under torture is significant in any way, shape or form? "Neutral point of view" is one of Misplaced Pages's three core content policies, along with "Verifiability" and "No original research." Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Ilgiz, do you honestly believe that "evidence" extracted under torture, can ever be considered to have NPOV quality? It's right there in the definition. You need NPOV and Verifiability. Verifiability you have, NPOV you do not have. Anything extracted under torture cannot ever be NPOV type or NPOV quality. You need both. You cannot just pick and choose what you like. As per WP:NPOV this is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:26, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, I wonder what the next discussion will we have, after discussing whether torture is a proper means to get information. Justification of pedophilia, or morality of cannibalism? I always thought that such questions are just too much neanderthalean. It's really a wonder for me that there are people like Ilgiz, eager to justify things like torture.

I really wonder, in fact. Usually in criminal codes of various countries there is no law prohibiting cannibalism -- there's just no need of it. Is then cannibalism an acceptable sort of behaviour for Ilgiz?

IMHO, the whole topic is just that much nauseating and humiliates our human nature as discussing cannibalism does. Like hell, we are the people of certain culture, that stands against torture, regardless of who is the victim. We are, like, people, not a bunch of animals. Don't you think so? ellol (talk) 11:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that entirely. Both, governmental rules and rules of society must be respected, but not worshiped. Often we forget that rules are created by humans and they can change. If we never broke the law, there would still be De Facto segregation in the South, India would be in British hands, etc. As Lincoln said, "A House Divided cannot stand". When societal rules clash with governmental rules, one or the other must go, and often society is correct. But certain people worship rules of government, and ignore societal rules, and are later surprised when society punishes them for it. At least it provides good, societal entertainment for historians. But I think that a lot of people don't get this concept, so I won't apply it to anyone here. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Quite a nice article by the telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3665772/All-roads-lead-back-to-Berezovsky.html

It's about Litvinenko's murder, but it also shows who is really behind the conspiracy theory claim, due to Putin's "betrayal" of his "henchmen". How dare did Putin not follow the Davos Pact. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Why Can't we call a Conspiracy Theory, a Conspiracy Theory?

This article does it: http://en.wikipedia.org/9/11_conspiracy_theories

Why exactly are we trying to insist that calling a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory, against NPOV? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Russian_apartment_bombings&action=historysubmit&diff=329775558&oldid=329774888 Misplaced Pages has very clear rules, that we cannot make conspiracy theories appear more than they are. Yet now I am branded a POV warrior, for calling a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory.

What are the facts? There are none, it's all hearsay, perpetrated by a single, anti-Russian Government group.

On the other hand you have Khattab, who used a similar Modus Operandi to bin Laden, stating that he did it. Then realizing that nobody liked his terror tactics in Dagestan to begin with, and that this incident isolated Khattab's terror group completely, he suddenly starts denying evidence. Instead a person from a non-existent "Dagestan Liberation Army" calls, and uses the exact same speech that Khattab used. Here, compare:

"The mujahideen of Dagestan are going to carry out reprisals in various places across Russia."

"Our response to the bombings of civilians in the villages in Chechnya and Dagestan."

Well he changed reprisals to response, and added Chechnya, a funny act by the "Dagestan Liberation Army", but otherwise the texts are identical.

Here is another sample, (from this very article):

"From now on, we will not only fight against Russian fighter jets and tanks. From now on, they will get our bombs everywhere. Let Russia await our explosions blasting through their cities. I swear we will do it."

And the mysterious caller "said that the explosions in Buynaksk and Moscow were carried out by his organization. According to him, the attacks were a retaliation to the deaths of Muslim women and children during Russian air raids in Dagestan. "We will answer death with death," the caller said".

But nobody heard of his "organization" before or after the blasts.

Khattab did it. He threatened to do it, he carried it out, and the Russian Government was blamed, because they were sloppy, disorganized, and careless.

And all the people who are accusing the Russian Government are those who either want to overthrow it by use of force, or are directly tied to those who want to overthrow by the use of force. If it walks like a conspiracy theory, and it quacks like a conspiracy theory, it's a ... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies recommend to expose existing points of view, not to find a "true" one. Contradictions in real life events are primary sources and their interpretations are secondary sources. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source that only classifies primary and secondary sources and does not synthesize hypotheses. As for naming (classifying) the theory of government involvement, I do not understand why it should be given any name, or a name that has a dual meaning. --ilgiz (talk) 07:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

'Conspiracy theory' is clearly a POV term and therefore not appropriate in an article that attempts to be non-biased. Malick78 (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

You guys want to change this article's name too? http://en.wikipedia.org/9/11_conspiracy_theories According to both of your arguments, it should clearly be changed. Have I your permission to present your arguments to that article? After all, they should be NPOV and apply to all articles, right? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

On the one hand we have Berezovski, Satter and Associates. On the other we have Academics, Professors, and the people who actually saw proof, as well as threats and a confession by the terrorist leader who did the damn thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that promoting both on an equal footing is not NPOV.

And since we all love NPOV, how about reading associated policies with NPOV: http://en.wikipedia.org/NPOV#Undue_weight

Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views; generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority. Satter's testimony was REJECTED by the US Congress. Nevertheless it is cited here 17 times! Tony Blair, UK Prime Minister at the time, endorses Putin's testimony of the bombs. Instead we get John Sweeney's bashing of Putin. Geez, I wonder, who is more important, the Prime Minister, or a "reporter". Goldfarb and Litvinenko's book is cited nine times, more than the opinions of prosecutors handing the cases. And of course the Jamestown Foundation is present in any article dutifully bashing Russia. Trepashkin, the "Independent Investigator" so lauded, is only cited four times. But in one string of citations, the editors, only for NPOV purposes, managed to cite Satter twice. Is this NPOV? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that we shouldn't use such headings as 'Conspiracy Theory of Russian government involvement'. 'Theory of Russian government involvement' is a nice and neutral name; we can trust the reader to examine the section and sources calling it conspiracy theory and otherwise and decide what was it by him(her)self. Alæxis_¿question? 09:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

But we are discussing whether to present a fact or not. We aren't deciding on NPOV. You are welcome to match up these events' chronology with the events of 9/11. They are identical. First you have a Saudi group, bin Laden/ibn Khattab, threaten. Than you have said person claim responsibility, after the event took place. Only after said events took place, does the chronology begin to differ, insofar as Khattab retracted his statement, because the Taliban sided with bin Laden's actions, and Basaev did not side with Khattab's actions. After that, the chronology once again becomes the same, insofar as groups trying to destroy the US/Russian Governments by force, go ahead and say that instead of gross negligence, the governments orchestrated it. Watching someone fall of a cliff because your couldn't get a decent rope, and pushing that someone off the cliff are two different things. I mean the fact that Russia lost the First Chechen War isn't NPOV towards Russia. But it is a fact that must be presented. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

IMHO the Conspiracy Theory is just OK. More than 10 years have passed. The time is ripe to stop teasing readers with "may be"'s and to be more encyclopaedic. There are no proofs of the theory that would stand in a court, but there's the rich criticism of it. It's the conspiracy theory. ellol (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Historic - Tony Blair and Congress wanted to suck up to the Russians... that's why they didn't make waves. Sure, let's quote things in proportion, but let's also be sceptical of the nefarious Russian government (murdering Litvinenko, probably Politkovskaya, attempting in the first hours to cover up the Kursk...) and all those who want contracts for its oil. 'Theories' is perfectly adequate, no need for 'conspiracy' before it. Malick78 (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Potentially there's a choice of 3 names - 'Conspiracy Theory of Russian government involvement', 'Theory of Russian government involvement', 'Russian government involvement'. The middle one is also the best in terms of NPOV imho (even though I myself think it's a conspiracy theory indeed). Alæxis_¿question? 20:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Alaexis, I already made the point, that we are deciding whether to include a fact or not, we aren't deciding on NPOV, see above. Malick, in terms of who killed Litvenenko, there is proof. In terms of Kursk submarine, there is proof. In terms of Politkovskaya, there isn't proof, which is why you used the word "probably". In terms of this article, there isn't a centilla of proof. Satter's reported was rejected by the US Congress, insofar as they didn't act on any of his suggestions. The rest of the gang are all tied to Berezovsky, and all we have is threats to make the movie, (either make it or shut up, you had ten years,) and hearsay. Proof is what matters. Thus in the case of Livenenko, it would "theory of Russian Gov't involvement" as there is proof, i.e. Polonium leaves a trail. BTW, Litvenenko was a double agent, selling FSB info, so there was motive as well, I mean which agency wouldn't kill a traitor? In the case of this article, you have no proof, no motive, (i.e. the Second Chechen War was happening, whether these events took place or not,) and all you have is hearsay, by a linked group of people, all of whom want to bring down the Russian Government by force. Hence in this case, it would be "conspiracy theory of Russian Gov't. involvement". Theory implies that you have at least a centilla of proof. As for British wanting to suck up to Russians, sorry but I don't buy that argument, based on hearsay alone. This article's lack of evidence towards Russian Gov't involvement is the classic example of a conspiracy theory. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Malick, I believe we should decide based on the evidence we have. The factual side is the same, regardless of the attitude taken by the British, or the Russian authorities. That's what we should think of the first. ellol (talk) 09:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• "Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning." - from the WP page conspiracy theory. So who are the superhumans required for this to be a 'conspiracy'? ;) Malick78 (talk) 14:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Russian FSB is deemed by theory authors to be able to do such a thing without any information leaks, and held it in perfect secrecy for now a decade. Remember Abraham Lincoln: "You may deceive all the people part of the time, and part of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time." The authors pretend that FSB managed to do exactly the latter. ellol (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I always found it fascinating that when applying WP policies, users most often miss the part that contradicts their claim: "Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism and often ridiculed because they are seldom supported by any conclusive evidence and contrast with institutional analysis, which focuses on people's collective behavior in publicly known institutions, as recorded in scholarly material and mainstream media reports, to explain historical or current events, rather than speculate on the motives and actions of secretive coalitions of individuals."

Here, you only have hearsay. The differences between a theory and a conspiracy theory are many, but a major one is a lack of evidence. Here, all we have is hearsay, which isn't evidence. Never has been. Never will be. I can say that Ellol is a hockey superstar, that Ovechkin's twin brother reincarnated into Ellol. I can also have several sources say the same thing. That is hearsay. It's not evidence. All you have is either statements of notorious criminals, or statements of people belonging to Berezovsky's faction, that wants to overthrow Russia's Government by force, or Satter, whose report was rejected by the US Congress. However it is all speculation and hearsay.

The other theory offers clear evidence. Khattab threatens Russia that if the Wahhabists get bombed, bombs will go off in Russia. Wahhabists get bombed. Bombs go off in Russia. After the blasts, Khattab takes responsibility for the blasts. After failing to gain support, Khattab suddenly says that he didn't do it, and an unheard of group, before or since, suddenly claims responsibility using Khattab's language, almost verbatum. All of these are facts. Nothing there is made up, or hearsay. Geez, based on these facts, I wonder, who did it... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Putley

Here is the previously inserted quote by Jeremy Putley:

"Jeremy Putley, who had written an article in October 2002 for "The Spectator" supporting the view that the Russian FSB was responsible for the bombing campaign (http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/10496/getting-away-with-murder.thtml) reviewed the book "Darkness at Dawn" for the August 20, 2003 issue of "Prospect", also expressing support for that view."

My problem was not that the quote was inserted, but with how it was inserted. Someone placed it under scholars but Putley is just a reviewer, not a scholar. Additionally it was placed as criticizing the conspiracy theory, whereas in reality it supports the conspiracy theory. Ergo I removed it, because I don't believe that they article should become a battlefront of he said/she said crap. If Putley's notable enough to make such a review, he should be properly included. If not, then he should not be included. And his notability to make such a statement has yet to be established. A blogger, parroting what larussophobe says, is not notable. http://en.wordpress.com/tag/jeremy-putley/ HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Jeremy Putley replies: certainly I am not famous but I did carry out detailed research; I am not less scholarly than Kirill Pankratov; I publish using my real name; and I do not parrot what La Russophobe says if you care to read it attentively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.225.134 (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

May I see this detailed research, or is this part of Berezovsky's video that's still yet to come out? And I provided the link where you are parroting what larussophobe says. From the link: larussophobe wrote 10 months ago: Murder in the Time of Putin by Jeremy Putley Original to La Russophobe Eduard and Larisa Baburov pay... Furthermore, publishing using your real name does not make you notable. Because saying "I am not less scholarly then Kirill Pankratov" doesn't actually prove anything. I can say that I've been to the moon. Doesn't mean I have. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 02:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

About the Caucasian accent

Can anyone please source it, is it Caucasian race or Peoples of the Caucasus as the context doesn't provide this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arenlor (talk • contribs) 07:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Testing the sugar

There are now references to sacks with "sugar" in Ryazan being tested somewhere outsite the city. When exactly that was done? According to book by Rdward Lucas, FSB indeed claimed about the test, but it was done much later, not the day when sucks were found.Biophys (talk) 03:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

POV Tag Discussion

The recent edits by Biophys do not meet NPOV criteria. Under the guise of "a more detailed abstract", Biophys writes: " They were quickly blamed by the Russian government on Chechen separatists and together with the Islamist invasion of Daghestan were used as a pretext for the military invasion of the breakaway Chechen Republic, which started on September 30 and escalated the Second Chechen War."

"Quickly blamed by the Russian Government", does that sound NPOV to anyone? Additionally, factual evidence showed that everyone in government was in favor of the Second Chechen War, so it would not make sense to bomb your own popular to support a war that already had widespread support.

Biophy continues:

"The (then) Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the Ryazanians and ordered air attacks on Grozny. The local police caught two Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) agents who planted the bomb in Ryazan shortly afterwards. "

However he has yet to cite an NPOV that those were FSB agents. I don't really see what air attacks on Grozny have to do with anything, except a cheap shot against Russia that is superbly unencyclopedic.

"the secessionist Chechen authorities, claimed that the 1999 bombings were a false flag attack coordinated by the FSB in order to win public support for a new full-scale war in Chechnya, which boosted Prime Minister and former FSB Director Vladimir Putin's popularity, brought the pro-war Unity Party to the State Duma and him to the presidency within a few months Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page)." was not what the source says, so I checked it. "Как сообщила в 16-часовом выпуске новостей телекомпания НТВ, при экспертизе в подозрительных мешках взрывчатых веществ не обнаружено." - As the 1600 News Block on NTV announced, when the suspicious looking sacks were checked, no explosives were detected. That's exactly what the source says, and it should not have been removed. Reworded, maybe, removed, definitely not.

And I think the Ryazan explanation and expansion should go into the Ryazan column. Just my two cents. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• cite an NPOV that those were FSB agents According to the April 29, 2003 article by Leonid Berres, Izvestia, residents of an apartment building in Ryazan found sacks with hexagen. Following this, FSB director Patrushev stated that there were training exercises in the city. --ilgiz (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Good try Ilgiz, but I asked to have this cited, it's why you don't respond to me out of context: The local police caught two Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) agents who planted the bomb in Ryazan shortly afterwards. So I am asking to cite, an NPOV source, if the people who placed the bomb were FSB agents. According to the source: Как удалось выяснить корреспонденту "Известий", заказчики этого преступления - прежде всего Шамиль Басаев и два араба, инструкторы диверсионных лагерей в Сержень-Юрте и Урус-Мартане Хаттаб и Абу Умар, убитые в прошлом году. . In other words, Izvestia states that the bomb was ordered by Khattab and Basaev. So the FSB agents placing it, had to be turncoats, since neither Khattab, nor Basaev work for the FSB; in fact they work against the FSB. The newspaper states that according to Berezovksy, which the newspaper admits is not a credible source: озвученную опальным предпринимателем Борисом Березовским, yeah that word in Russian, the bolded one, not a good description to have of your persona. So yeah, according to Berezovsky, who wants to overthrow the FSB, the FSB placed the bombs. And that's what the paper says. If an NPOV paper says it's POV quote, guess what - it's a POV quote. Good article though, I agree with it. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
    • The first quote from the Izvestia article is about Procurator office's investigation (opinion) on the Moscow bombings. The quote I showed did not attribute the Ryazan sack discovery and Patrushev's statement to Berezovsky. You seem to imply that Patrushev did not make the statement. Besides, I am not sure what the word "disgraced" has anything to do with the opinion of the "disgraced" person. It was never disputed that the sacks were found, that the search for perpetrators was halted after few people were found, released and that Patrushev declared the events an exercise. --ilgiz (talk)
      • Ilgiz, you are very welcome to fix anything you want. You know this subject well.Biophys (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Biophys, are you going to respond the POV tag? It came to the article as a result of your edits. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
      • No, I am saying that Russian FSB forces did not blow up their own civilians, and the only ones who say otherwise, are the disgraced Berezovki clique, as the article that you cited points out. When claiming otherwise, show me the quotes from the article, so I can see your evidence, as I am a huge fan of evidence, over mere claims. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Misplaced Pages editors do not carry the burden of verifying facts (primary sources) described by the publications (secondary sources). Only the facts that the references were published need to be verified. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. --ilgiz (talk) 15:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Ilgiz, when you make an edit in Misplaced Pages, you actually have to cite the information where that came from. And is the source is a conspiracy theories, Berezovsky, the source has to either be identified as a conspiracy theorist, or removed. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Appeal

The story of Russian apartment bombings with the time passing becomes a matter of history. And as such, it can't depend on mere speculations. If you can reference solid evidence in favour of the conspiracy theory, you are more than welcome to do that. If you can't, do not harm this article with any more speculation of opposition politicians that's not based on any publicly available evidence. ellol (talk) 13:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles would not have much value without presenting references to opinions and works. --ilgiz (talk) 15:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Right, can you have to cite them. And if they are conspiracy theorists, they must be identified as such. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Bombing by FSB agents is a majority view

I believe that comment by ellol has some merit as a reminder to follow WP:RS. So, let's follow it and use reliable secondary sources (that is books by experts), although nothing prevents from using other sources. According to majority of such books, the bombing was indeed committed by the FSB. This comes at no surprise because FSB was so clumsy: the agents were caught red-handed while planing the bomb and so on. So, we have the following books by experts on the Russian affairs that support bombing by the FSB version:

1. Two books by an FSB insider Alexander Litvinenko who said "we did it".
2. A book by David Satter who also reported this to US Congress
3. A book by Edward Lucas (journalist)
4. Book "Age of Assassins" by historians Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky
5. Several documentary movies by Andrei Nekrasov
6. There are some allegedly fictional books with only names replaced, such as "Lesser Evil" by Dubov who describes Berezovsky, Putin and others, but hints that the actual mastermind behind the bombings was Philipp Bobkov

Books that provide no definitive conclusion, but consider such scenario highly probable:

1. The Security Organs of the Russian Federation. A Brief History 1991-2004 by Jonathan Littell, Psan Publishing House 2006.
2. Book by Alex Goldfarb

Books claiming that bombings definitely were not committed by the FSB:

1. A book by Sakva?

Everyone is welcome to continue these lists of books by experts to see which list will be longer. Thank you.Biophys (talk) 04:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

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