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*'''Delete, salt, etc.''', per my reasoning in the other substantially similar AFDs. ]] 17:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC) *'''Delete, salt, etc.''', per my reasoning in the other substantially similar AFDs. ]] 17:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Bali, and apply liberal amounts of ]. Metric tons. <font color="#BA181F">]</font> (<font color="#BA181F">]</font>) 17:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC) *'''Delete''' per Bali, and apply liberal amounts of ]. Metric tons. <font color="#BA181F">]</font> (<font color="#BA181F">]</font>) 17:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and re-write. High quality sources explicitly discussing this can be found . Article should be re-written along these lines. ] (]) 18:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:18, 4 February 2010

Albanian pederasty

AfDs for this article:
Albanian pederasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Essay by banned user pushing a POV. None of these sources appear to be about "Albanian pederasty", which returns a grand total of one google books hits, which says "Albanians were themsevles convinced pederasts". I strongly doubt something like that that is a reliable source, or NPOV. Pcap ping 15:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment In the first paragraph there are 5 references. Either it is not possible to see these references online, or there is nothing in them to show pederasty. Please show me ONE reference out of those five to convince me of the validity of these claims. In particular this reference proves that Haiduc, the article writer, and an indefinitely banned user of Misplaced Pages, has nothing to reference. Out of the 13 references, only one talks about gay sex in 1997 Albania, not pedearasty.sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 18:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
CommentPlease note that the reference you are bringing is homosexuality, not pederasty. The article writer is a POV pushing with a unique obsession: pederasty, see . Haiduc brings only ONE reference and it is for homosexuality. The whole pederasty thing is a hoax and unsubstantiated. This is a clear example of WP:OR WP:SYNTH WP:FORK and WP:Vsulmues (talk)--Sulmues 20:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I inform you that the specific book speaks about pederasty too:
  • "Plomer reports that Ali's son Veli, vizier of Morea (sw Greece emulated his father's appetities for money and for boys... any beautiful girls or boys" p. 193& p. 189.
  • A Geg marries at the age of 24...but not usually gives up 'boy' love (p.188).

So please, you should read the section before saying that this isn't about pederasty.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete The article has two problems. First, it represents a complete synthesis of ideas, for example the cite above by Alexikoua refers to homosexuality and not pederasty. The user who created and maintained this article had the same problem across all of his work; he would bend and misrepresent sources to make claims of other sexual activity (such as homosexuality or pedophilia) as pederasty, and so we have the second problem... We cannot trust the sources provided since, in nearly every case, where we CAN check the sources, they do not support the claims in these articles. For sources we cannot readily check, we cannot trust. All of them should be deleted, and if it is determined that the topic needs to be covered by an article (and that's a big "if"), then they should be created by scratch by an editor who isn't misrepresenting sources to do so. --Jayron32 20:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment:@Jayron32: If you read this part of the book (not only the title), like in p. 193 (Plomer reports that ali's son..." you will realize that it speaks about pederasty. Moreover, the source is wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, so how is that pederasty and not pedophilia? Again, source says "so and so likes boys" but does not say that that is pederasty. To make the leap from the former statement to the latter claim that this represents pederasty requires a synthesis of ideas. Once you eliminate all cases where the source material does not explicitly use the term pederasty, or describe the practice thereof unambiguously, you have nothing. --Jayron32 20:56, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I'll add that while there have been pederasts in albanian history and there are certainly some albanian pederasts today, there's nothing particularly Albanian about these creeps. They're much like British, or US, or whatever pederasts. This is not a topic like Pederasty in Ancient Greece and this article, as written and conceived, mashes together a whole host of homosexual behavior from the morally acceptable (between consenting adults) to the borderline (adult and a 17-year-old) to the clearly morally reprehensible (basically raping 13-year old kids).Bali ultimate (talk) 21:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep, per Edison, evidently a part of the culture of the country and enough sourced. --Factuarius (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete The online references are quite vague: no doubt a person with a particular interest in boys could find like-minded people in any country, and those people may very well claim that pederasty is "openly practiced". Given the origin of this article, and the tone of the lead, I do not trust the interpretation of the paper references. The lead tenderly reports that "the older lover is called ashik..."; if that detail has some encyclopedic importance it can be mentioned in an appropriate article. However, there is no reliable scholarly study showing that "Albanian pederasty" is notably different from "English pederasty" or "Thai pederasty" etc., and this article serves only to unduly glorify an outlook that has a proven record of of being promoted via the Internet in general, and Misplaced Pages in particular. My guess is that the article was created because a source was found which included text attributed to a Geg Albanian: "The lover's feeling for the boy is pure as sunshine...". When a scientific study reaches that conclusion it can go in Pederasty. Johnuniq (talk) 03:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • keep, just needs lots of editingMegistias (talk) 11:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete, salt, etc., per my reasoning in the other substantially similar AFDs. UnitAnode 17:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per Bali, and apply liberal amounts of WP:SALT. Metric tons. JBsupreme (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep and re-write. High quality sources explicitly discussing this can be found . Article should be re-written along these lines. Athenean (talk) 18:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
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