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/Archive 30 August 2009 up to 29 December 2009

Maps

OK Megistias, I really don't understand why do you keep on pushing some ideas in your Illyrian related maps? We had discussion about it a long time ago and I can see some other people have criticized your work too in the meantime. Do you know that your map File:Illyrians.jpg is taken for a joke in some specialized history forums where many experts write.

Why do you mark Liburni as Venetic people? There is no any evidence of that kind. There is only possibility that in the very northern Liburnia there was presence of Histri, who were close to Veneti (Veneti-like names). Why do you mark Iapodes as the Celts? Why do you spread wrong info about "Celticized Dalmatae"? Can you understand difference between: being a Celt/being Celtized/having material exchange with the Celts??? Are you aware that for this "Celtization" you use almost 90 years old theories about "Illyarian Hallstat", abandoned 60, 70 years ago?

Now I'm watching this map File:IllyrianWars.jpg. What is that? I'm shocked. What is that territory bordered by brown line (Demetrius of Pharos)? What is yellow territory (Teuta)? Zenanarh (talk) 12:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have some difficulty reading this for example?

• Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,page 183,"We may begin with the Venetic peoples, Veneti, Carni, Histri and Liburni, whose language set them apart from the rest of the Illyrians"Megistias (talk) 19:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I am shocked as well by your odd claiming talk that the Iranian Medes had something to do with the Thracian Maedi.And on a 3 years old discussion at that.Megistias (talk) 19:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I ve made the maps simpler and more neutral regarding celt issues but i will work on them further when i can.Megistias (talk) 08:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll start discussion in Liburnian language, about this, Wilkes is certainly not top authority on the matter and using only his specualation (citation from his book often used by you is not a fact) produces imbalance in related articles. My idea is not edit warring or pushing one idea against the others. We should cooperate on this. Zenanarh (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

About the Medes, well, actually there is possible connection. There's a large chance that the Medes contributted to ethnogenesis of the Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks in one episode of Indo-Europeanization in the Balkans. Zenanarh (talk) 11:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Daesitiates

I am not sure you're helping matters at User talk:Daesitiates. The user is clearly upset about some activities by other users; you are possibly among them. Let's focus on the content rather than what someone's agenda may be. I think the content issue needs to be resolved on the page where the disagreement exists.  Frank  |  talk  15:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

ok, but he has never used the talk page and his edits are seen as inappropriate by other users as well. Megistias (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not making any judgment on his edits or whether or not others find them inappropriate. I told him that admin intervention is not appropriate and he needs to learn to find WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page of the article in question. That's a first step. If that is tried and it fails, there are other steps to follow in dispute resolution.  Frank  |  talk  15:37, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias,

I am kindly inviting you to cooperate so we can find some compromise on the text entitled " Ardian", for none of my 16 friends could see what was wrong with my contributions ( enclosed below) to "Ardian" and why you removed them.

I am inviting you ti once again read my additions that you have been continuously deleting and realise that they have no political connotations nor do they offend, assault or undermine anyone in any way. I am too old for this son. I guess you could show some respect to people who are much older than you and people who have been dealing with these issues academically , doing their best to keep it at the academic level, with as little as possible political interferences.

There are many people clled "Ardian" and when they want to show their parents, their children or their grandchildren the meaning of their name, the last thing they want to read is som epolitical background to that name, like" Thisi i sone of those imaginary Illyrian names imposed to Albanians by communist regime in Albanian". Communism vanished from Albania decades ago my son, and most Albanians (me being one) themselves prefer Ilylrian and Albanian national names. Nobody imposes that on us.

I guess Albanians DO  have a say about their own culture, right?

Why isn't there any Englishmen out there deleting contributions to some Celtic name? I'll tel you son, because he is civlized enough to understand that nationalism is a disease that needs to be cured.

So for the sake of those civilized values, as a person much older than you, I kindly ask you to read again my contributions that you ar so much upset about (for reasons known only to you) and reaize that my contributions are in no way offending or undermining anyone, nor, most importantly, are they lacking reference.

Here are the contributions you deleted. Please, read them and tell me whcih parts you don't liek and why so we can find som ecompromise.

Again, please bear in mind that the text "Ardian" , the way you left it on Misplaced Pages, DOES look indirectly discriminatory to Albanians, for two reasons:

1. It uses the undermining languge " the imaginary Illyrian names", and 2. It only emphasizes negative aspects of the history of that name ( "Illyrian names being imposed by communists", which dopes not affect the fact that Albnainas themselves prefer Ilylrian and Albanian national names. After all, they do not need to ask for someone's permission in order to do that, right?).

"Original Illyrian names found in the literature, as well as names made up of Illyrian words and etymologies in general, are still among the most preferred personal names among modern Albanians today, along with names deriving from Albanian language, the Albanian national names like Bardh/Bardha, ('white', 'pure', 'fair'), Hyll ('star'), Bora ('snow'), Dita ('daylight'), Drita ('light', 'illumination'), Gonxhe ('rosebud'; first name of Mother Teresa), Lule ('flower'), Pellumb ('dove'), etc. Indeed, there are some obvious similarities between the supposed Illyrian words (names of persons, places and things) and Albanian ones, such as the name of Illyrian king Bardylis and Albanian word for white, 'bardh', the name of Illyrian king Hyllus and Albanian "(h)yll", for 'star', Illyrian deity Bindo and Albanian 'bind' ('convince', 'make believe'), and dozens more. It also seems linguistically plausible to connect the name of Ardiaei with Latin "Ardea", meaning "Heron"A small town located in the area adjacent to Neretva river (which was precisely the original homeland of ancient Illyrian community of Ardiaei) is called Čapljina, deriving from "Čaplja", which in former Serbo-Croatian language (nowadays divided into Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin and Serbian) means precisely "Heron". This theory opens up many possibilities for the interpretation of the origin of this name, such as heron being present in significant numbers in that area since prehistory, and thus influencing the etymology, for example.However, this theory is challanged by the fact that the Ardiaei (although in a different form, Ardiaioi) were mentioned long before Romans conquered Illyrian lands, like, for example by Theopompus in the fourth century B.C., or in reference to their warfare agianst Phillip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great. Vardiaei, one other variant of Ardiaei bears similarity with Greek word word ‘vardia’, meaning ‘watch/duty/shift’ (‘guard’ implicit), and if we allow for a possibility of Ardiaioi being some corrupt version (misspelling) of 'Vardaei', this may seem as a plausible explanation. However, further research is undoubtedly necessary in order to reach any tangible conclusion.

There are some claims too, that in one of the ancient sources Ardiaioi was actually a mistaken emendation of Autariatae. This is however most likely to mean that the author had mistaken Autariatae for Ardiaioi, rather than implying that they are one and the same people, for the fact that Ardiaioi were mentioned repeatedly and separately from Autariatae in several different ancient sources, as mentioned above. Whatever the case, the fact is that Ardiaioi (the Greek version of Ardiaiei or Vardaei) were mentioned before Romans came to exert any influence, including the lingusitic one among Illyrians. This so far rules out the Latin etymology of Ardiaiei, based on Latin 'ardea', for 'heron'."

All of them were well referenced, as you know.

I frankly hope we will manage to find a compromising solution, although, as I said, NONE OF US HERE see what was wrong with the above addition that I made. (Daesitiates (talk) 15:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

How about creating a version of the article at User:Daesitiates/Ardian, complete with references, so it can be discussed there? (Or a suitably named page; I'm not certain which article you are trying to make these edits to.) And remember, this isn't about you and your friends; it's about reliable sources  Frank  |  talk  16:03, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough Frank, I will proceed with that instantly, although I might have to ask for your patientce if I am stuck somewhere in the process for, like I said, I am sure I am much older than many of you guys here and I may not be as skillfull with Misplaced Pages. Ok. I will propose my version on that page. (Daesitiates (talk) 16:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daesitiates (talk • contribs) 16:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

You have never used the talk page for years.And your edits were unconstructive. You removed references among other things.Megistias (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

megistias. I may have never used talk page, but like I said, I am decades older than most of you. Trust me, you can al lbe my children.in other words, i am not as skillful as you kids in wikipedia and computer skills in general.

"your edits were unconstructive". Excuse me young man, but isn't this statemen slightly overambitious? I would be truly grateful if aou enlgihtened me on how my edits were unconstructive. After all, how constructive is it to change the text on a national name making it look like a mere political criticism?

is there any positive word you said about that name in that particular text or anythin positive you said about Albanian culture. Out of so many references to Albanian names (and culture in generaly) you only imposed the negative one, the one obviously undermining Albanian culture by calling its names repertoire some communist construct imposed on people. Now, how constructive ( let alone unbiased) is that?

Image me going to some Greek name page and doing what you did on "Ardian"? Now, how fair would you consider that to be? I am sorry to say this, but you more than obviously have some serious unresolved issue in your attitude towards Albanian culture.

Finaly, I would be grateful if you remind me when and how I remeove references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daesitiates (talk • contribs) 17:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Please, sign your comments and take some time to read wikipedia rules.Megistias (talk) 17:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is pointless. Let's focus on content moving forward. No need to look at the past; let's just get it right in the present.  Frank  |  talk  17:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right Frank. I 'm sorry. I just flet I needed to tell the truth, but yes, let's move ahead now and see what we can do. I proposed my version on User:Daesitiates/Ardian as you advised. I had a little problem though for I couldn't use the references in a normal way so I copied them at the bottom. i hope that's not the problem. I think what matters is the content. (Daesitiates (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)).

Further comment belongs at User talk:Daesitiates/Ardian. And remember: Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth.  Frank  |  talk  17:37, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Your comments here are not helpful, and I've removed them. The purpose of that page is not to discuss the main article and whether or not the content is appropriate for the main article. The first things to be worked on are formatting, references, citation, removing original research, and all the basics. If we can't get past all of that, nothing can go into the main article space.

If you read what I've written thus far, I've been saying let's work in a safe, sandbox-type area and get the content up to Misplaced Pages standards first. After we get there, then we can talk about achieving some kind of consensus to put it in the article. If you (or anyone) start attacking the talk page of a sandbox work with reasons why the material can't get into a main space article, conflict will surely arise. Let's focus on proper writing, sourcing, and other policies first. Better yet - let me work on that with him. Thanks!  Frank  |  talk  19:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

i wont do anything to the sandbox but i redirected ardian to adrian name page that includes all such names.Clear and cut.Thats where the name derives from. Megistias (talk) 20:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

And I have undone that redirect from Ardian. The article contains content specific to the name Ardian. There may be sourcing issues with the article itself, but that's not a reason to redirect it elsewhere.  Frank  |  talk  20:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I hope I am following it up properly. I just want to say that I finally managed to resolve my referencing problem and I hope my proposed text at my user page:Daesitiates/Ardiaei is now ready for negotiations.

If I may just kindly ask, are the three of us supposed to negotiate the issue on this page (this one here belonging to megistias), my talk page (Daesitiates) or somewhere else? Please forgive my ignorance. I am ensuring you I am doing my best to learn on the go. Thanx for the patience.

--Daesitiates (talk) 20:45, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Other than Frank gracioucly having the good will to guide you through article editing, and you following... i have to repeat that many of the things you suggest in the sandbox have been proposed by albanian editors over the years on many articles, and they did not go in.They are not encyclopedic, to put it politely.Megistias (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Daesitiates - please stick to the sandbox we are working in. That content is nowhere near ready to be reviewed by anyone for inclusion anywhere else.  Frank  |  talk  21:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias - perhaps you can take a look at User talk:Daesitiates/Ardian to READ only, please without commenting. I think you'll find we're peeling back the layers a bit and we will eventually be able to get to the content. I don't want to predict how things will turn out, but I hope you will watch as things progress.

If I may say, your approach doesn't look to be so inspiring either; if you're going to call into question another editor's actions, especially when it's clear you already don't agree...it's usually not going to wind up in a good result. To be specific, it really doesn't help when you tell someone that "many of the things you suggest...have been proposed...and did not go in." This is going to inspire someone to argue, not to work with you to achieve consensus. And I would point out that if there is to be any peaceful editing and avoidance of edit warring, page protection, topic bans, and maybe even blocks, both sides are going to have to learn to find something to agree on. Consensus isn't about getting someone else blocked or banned. It's about finding something acceptable enough to both sides that they'll both leave it in even if neither thinks it is the 100% "right" way to word it. We certainly still need verifiable citations from reliable sources. That's not in question. But there comes a point where we have to understand that the best result possible may be based on consensus rather than full agreement from every party.

Hopefully we can start achieving good results all around.  Frank  |  talk  03:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on the sandbox, but i have yet to find a single reference on which to base a reason to consider Ardian anything else other than a variant of Adrian.Megistias (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

That is not the purpose of that sandbox exercise. The purpose is to understand how to edit, how to find sources, how to write an article, and how to discuss issues. Whether or not Ardian is anything more or less than a variant of Adrian is really quite beside the point. Eventually we will get to that.  Frank  |  talk  11:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Beograd Atlas of 1970

Since you have been involved in Ilyrian related topics I have recently found these pictures, you might be interested to check: ] ].Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow, suddenly albanians appeared 500+ years before they actually did, Byzantine Greeks are gone and non-Greek populations somehow have "absolute homogeny", and have have over all the region.Megistias (talk) 22:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Albanian name

Your edits in Albanian (name) are ridiculuous, Arba and Olbonenses have nothing to do with Albanian name. Position of Olbonenses is unkown, some scientists think that Olbonenses were Aluatae - citizens of Alvona, so Olbona would be error in writing or distorted toponym. And both Alvona and Arba were in the north of Liburnia, where Histri, Iapodes and Liburnians were mixing - a region historically and geographically not linked to Albania and Albanians. It is like to say that name of Bangkok came from "bannana". Or from sound produced by John Wayne's gun: "bang". ;P Zenanarh (talk) 13:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I know they dont, since you are certain please remove it. Megistias (talk) 13:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Olbonenses are not even mentiond in that article. What are you talking about?Megistias (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

ha? you're right, sorry. Zenanarh (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Maps... I will, I've already signed myself in Commons, one of these days I'll remove them there and upload a few new ones. At the moment I'm working some other maps too, Dalmatae, Dalmatae Tariotes, Iapodes, Roman Dalmatia, Iron Age burial tradition in the Western Balkans,... Zenanarh (talk) 14:25, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Reverted you in Shkoder

Please see this revert I made to your contribution to Shkoder. Hope that's ok. user:sulmues--Sulmues 18:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The very next sentence says the same thing, only better.Megistias (talk) 19:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Hyllus

Maybe you can help. Except Hyllus in Greek mythology and Hyllus (river), there was also Hyllus Peninsula at the eastern Adriatic coast. See Tariotes. This toponym was recorded in the ancient Greek sources. Can you find some data, like citations,... Zenanarh (talk) 09:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Well, i found Pliny,Naturalis Historia, Liburniae finis et initium Delmatiae Scardona in amne eo XII passuum a mari. dein Tariotarum antiqua regio et castellum Tariona, promunturium Dio-medis vel, ut alii, paeninsula Hyllis circuitu C, Tragurium civium Romanorum, marmore notum, Siculi, in quem locum Divus Claudius veteranos misit, Salona colonia ab Iader CXII. petunt in eam iura viribus discriptis in de...
• Nothing yet on ancient greek texts.Will keep on looking.Could it be that an greek mentions this in a latin language text?

Megistias (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt, I have some sources which mention ancient Greek sources exclusively, in my understanding those from Hellenistic era. Pliny the Elder and other Latin writers knew about this name. However, it seems that in the Greek scholarship there were some unsuccesful attempts to attach this toponym to Pelloponesus or some other peninsula in Greece. I'm thinking about new article: Hyllus Peninsula, so any data would be nice. BTW this is probably from where originally Hylleis arrived to Greece during the Dorian invasion. Zenanarh (talk) 12:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Which Hellenistic writers? Maybe they write the name in a slightly different manner, a variance, thats why its no popping up so prominentely.But then there are some writers from that era that are obscure and hard to find. Got any names?Megistias (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

What I have is this: , text is in both Croatian and English, check ref note no. 2. Zenanarh (talk) 12:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephanus of Byzantium 6th century AD, writes of the myth but adds in the bottom, though part of the text is not saved, "Υπερ δε τους Υλλους Λιβυρνοι και τινες Ιστροι λεγομενοι Θρακες. Και το θυληκον Υλλις προκειτα χερρονησος ηλικη. Μαλιστα Πελοποννησος, ως φασι …."

• Something like they are above the Liburni, and then of Istri that are called Thracians. And then Yllis chersonese, like a female. In the end he says that it looks like Pelloponesus but then the text is gone no more elaborating. Then he goes on on blah blah.Megistias (talk) 12:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok from your link, it says "through the middle of the peninsula which Roman sources called Hyllus" so we know that Latin texts will most likely be using this term for it.And the reference inside it goes "According to an ancient Greek legend or, more precisely, propaganda, the Hyllus Peninsula was slightly smaller than the Peloponnese and there were 15 cities on it inhabited by barbarized Greek Hyllini, the descendents of Herakles’ son Hyllus (Suić 1955: 132-133; Katičić 1995: 91-98, 387-398; Mastrocinque 1996: 359-361; Čače 1995-96: 21-45)."

• This is most likely from Stephanus of Byzantium. The Herakles myth and some non-mythic data that a place with a similar sounding name existed.Megistias (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the data from your link is Pliny + Stephanus as after the missing text he writes what the pdf-reference writes.Megistias (talk) 13:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, the only parallel data from Stephanus seems to come from De prosodia catholica, by Pseudo-Aelius Herodianus 180-250,. It seems as if Stephanus had copied the exact data that Pseudo-Aelius Herodianus provided.

• But i want to verify this more to be certain.Megistias (talk) 13:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Its the same, Stephanus copied from Herodianus.See also From political architecture to Stephanus ByzantiusMegistias (talk) 13:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Tnx :) Zenanarh (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Liburnians

Megistias what are you doing? After you have completely destroyed almost every Illyrian related article, now you keep on doing your special mission here too? You stupid arrogant little shit!!! Please report me!!!!! Zenanarh (talk) 07:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no need to report this editor, they have now reported themselves and I have blocked them for a week for disruption. I have no idea what this conflict is all about, but please don't rise to the bait. Thanks. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 10:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I will check them the following days. Nice job by the wayAlexikoua (talk) 08:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Names on 1854 map

No problem: The wanting names on that map are Zidon, Zoar, Arpad, Aram, Arphachsad, Mash, Carchemish, Calneh in the first area. There's one name in Canaan I can't make out, possibly Cheth. The word (Armenians) in parentheses is under Togharma. (Medians) should also be in parentheses. In the Sinai, you've got Ludim, Amalek, Edom, Midian and Sinim. Note that most of these are now thought to have been located outside of the Sinai peninsula. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, there's another area near the Caspian with the names: Kaspian, Kur R., Araxes R. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Great job on the map! I do like the green version, though. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Albanians

I have continued this debates you began on the Origin of ROmanians talk page with Pannonia. Please feel free to comment Hxseek (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Jayjg 15:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

aryan

You should be telling Rajkis this, not me. I know it already! Best of all would be to add the information to the Talk:Aryan page. I will move it there, it that's alright. Paul B (talk) 12:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Taking a break

Taking a breakMegistias (talk) 21:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of WP:AN/I

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