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Climate change exaggeration

Climate change exaggeration (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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• This is a neologism and essentially a POV fork of climate change controversy. The only sources which use this term as it is used here are some blogs and some partisan sources. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The article does not cite any blogs. The article does cite U.S. News & World Report, Reuters, The New York Times, and gallup.com. Why would you say the article only cites blogs, when it doesn't cite any blogs, and it does cite four reliable, non-blog sources? Grundle2600 (talk) 02:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The article is needed in order to balance out Climate change denial. Also, the article does not cite any blogs. The article does cite U.S. News & World Report, Reuters, The New York Times, and gallup.com Grundle2600 (talk) 02:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Could be traited with one line of text in the climate change controversy article. --McSly (talk) 02:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

1 line? really? How are you going to handle treatments of the IPCC exaggerations along with other science problems as they arise, plus over the top treatments in the popular press in one line? Given that climate change controversy is weighing in at 127k, normal process would be to be breaking out sections such as climate change exaggeration into their own pages and not adding more material (and the phenom deserves much more than one line) over there. TMLutas (talk) 02:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

"per nom"? What are you talking about? The article does not cite any blogs. The article does cite U.S. News & World Report, Reuters, The New York Times, and gallup.com. Why would you say the article only cites blogs, when it doesn't cite any blogs, and it does cite four reliable, non-blog sources? Grundle2600 (talk) 02:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep Google scholar has 66,500 hits on the term. This AfD is *very* premature. I think that given the number of hits on the term, simply asserting that this is a neologism is insufficient. At worst, the undeveloped level would deserve incubation but I don't think we should even do that unless there's something more than naked assertion here. TMLutas (talk) 02:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• As was pointed out below, you are not searching correctly. If I search Google scholar for telephone miami dog jesus I get 11,500 hits, however the exact phrase "telephone miami dog jesus" understandably comes up with nothing. "Climate change exaggeration" also bring sup nothing. Hopefully this information will cause you to rethink your vote, otherwise it is based on a falsehood. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete as POV fork and unsubstantiated neologism. People on all sides of all issues exaggerate all the time; there's nothing to suggest that this particular pair of exaggerations comprise an entity. PhGustaf (talk) 02:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Would you also support deletion of Climate change denial for those same reasons? Grundle2600 (talk) 02:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Just as Climate change denial constitutes an entity, from the "denialist perspective" this lemma does comprise an entity. Joepnl (talk) 02:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete as POV fork. If done properly (search for the term, not the individual words), Google Scholar has no hits at all. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is about the subject of climate change exaggeration, not the phrase "climate change exaggeration." Grundle2600 (talk) 02:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

You have not shown that to be a notable topic. And TMLutas search above is worthless to support the notability or sourceability of the topic. His search returns e.g. "climate change and other scientific matters. These problems are often clearly inspired not by any inclination to exaggerate" as the very first hit. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 03:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The article states that a Gallup poll shows that 41% of the population believes that the news media exaggerates the effects of climate change. Grundle2600 (talk) 03:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

That hardly constitutes "significant coverage in multiple reliable sources" (WP:GNG).04:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep it's premature to delete. It's a notably growing topic with many scientific and especially political source examples for quotations. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 02:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong keep Though it might be renamed to Climate change alarmism (52000 hits) being the exact opposite of Climate change denial. I've heard our (Dutch) Minister of Environment claiming on national TV that "the world might come to an end within 30 years". This highly educated person wasn't talking about hungry polar bears but an actual "end of the world" which even the IPCC would deem ridiculous. This psychological phenomenon of people making outrageous claims in the area of climate change they must know aren't true certainly deserves a lemma. I guess in other areas it's called suspension of disbelief but that would probably violate WP:OR :). (also amazed that this article got listed here within 16 minutes.) Joepnl (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether you believe the topic to be important or existent is irrelevant; until the topic itself is given substantial coverage in reliable sources and can be written in a NPOV way, there should not be an article on it. And Stephen Schulz's Google Scholar search seems to indicate that no such sources exist. — DroEsperanto (talk) 03:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Climate change alarmism does so if that's your problem please strike your "Delete" and create a proper redirect page.Joepnl (talk) 04:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note - It would be better named "Global warming..." rather than "Climate change..." given the structure of our Global warming and Climate change articles. Shadowjams (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought about that before I created the article, and since Global warming denial redirects to Climate change denial, I wanted it to follow the same pattern. Grundle2600 (talk) 02:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete it's merely a label applied to a term. Belongs on Conservapedia for "truthiness", but not on any reputable site. User: TeamZissou but not signed-in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.101.198 (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Warning This user has vandalized the article by removing all the sources, and adding multiple unsourced claims which make the article look ridiculous. Does that invalidate their vote for deletion? Grundle2600 (talk) 03:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - An ill-advised, hastily-written, and poorly-timed entry into the growing global warming topic area, doing little more than inciting the battlefield mentality. Obvious POV fork of exiting content, as noted by SA and others. That the author in his keep vote cites a "The article is needed in order to balance out..." rationale is of concern though, as this is a fundamental misunderstanding of ] that Grundle has repeated again, and again, and again, and again across the project, leading to an ArbCom sanction, several blocks, and a topic ban. It would seem that the later needs revisiting, as it was last up on the admin boards just 3 weeks ago. Tarc (talk) 03:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you also favor deleting Climate change denial? Grundle2600 (talk) 03:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is a clarification of my topic ban. Grundle2600 (talk) 03:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

That note from Thatcher is from last June. You're put on a lot of mileage since then, as can be seen in several subsequent AN and AN/I's, the most recent of which I linked to above. It is quite frankly an impossibility to separate just "the science" from politics, especially in the present in the middle of all this battleground mentality around the topic area. Tarc (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought this page was about discussing articles that should or should not be deleted. There are enough other pages especially designed to discuss individual users. Assuming good faith, I guess you didn't have Grundle in mind when you decided to write "Delete". Joepnl (talk) 03:22, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely had grundle in mind, as this is the same sort of problem we've had to deal with him over the last year; a critical misunderstanding of WP:NPOV that results in disruptive article creations such as this. Tarc (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is the misunderstanding of NPOV and why would this article be disruptive? Joepnl (talk) 03:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - Based on the comments above there appears to be sufficient reliable material to expand the article and it provides a reasonable counter-point to balance Climate change denial and bring things to a more WP:NPOV. --GoRight (talk) 03:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment. Aren't articles supposed to be internally NPOV? We're not supposed to balance one article against another one. If that's the case, why don't we just go the whole hog and balance wikis against one another? That way we could let Conservapedia collect all the trash. It would certainly save some time here ... --PLUMBAGO 10:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course they should be internally NPOV. Nothing I said suggests otherwise. The information here is the logical counter-point to the denial article that has already been allowed to exist. These articles, Climate change denial and Climate change exaggeration are both properly viewed as specific content forks from Climate change controversy and they should be treated as such. NPOV applies at the Climate change controversy level and any content forks which are related to it. --GoRight (talk) 15:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per GoRight. Agree with Joepnl that article might better be named Climate change alarmism. Pete Tillman (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I just created that article. Joepnl (talk) 03:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I nominated it for speedy deletion. Wait for the outcome of this discussion. Copy-and-paste also has other problems - in particular, you have no valid attribution information per CC-BY-SA (your creation comment is probably insufficient now and certainly will be so if this page gets deleted). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. Any criticisms or errors in IPCC reports can be recovered in articles on the IPCC or whoever; the assertion that any of these errors constitute alarmism or exaggeration is pure original research and a fringe POV often propogated by GW skeptics who wish to discredit the AGW hypothesis. Global warming denialism is completely different, as it is a term used in scholarly literature and a cultural phenomenon in its own right. Also, the USNEWS piece is a blog. Also, delete Global warming alarmism. — DroEsperanto (talk) 03:45, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The article says that a Gallup poll shows that 41% of the population believes that the media exaggerates the effects of climate change. That's not original research - it's a verifiable fact. The U.S. News & World Report article is labeled "Science News' Science & the Public Blog." That means it's an article, with a "blog" for the "public" to comment on the article. Grundle2600 (talk) 04:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete and indef anyone who thinks it should exist. This bullshit is what's wrong with Misplaced Pages and the people who advocate for this garbage should be removed so people who actually are competent to write on science topics can do so. -Atmoz (talk) 04:35, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 04:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep, article should be cleaned up, but this is clearly a valid topic, given the number of sources addressing the topic. It's not original research when we have plenty of sources on the topic. Oppose blocking of supporters; personal attacks are not necessary. Nyttend (talk) 04:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Delete - that's a critic of climate change, which already has its article. -RobertMel (talk) 05:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete as POV fork. Gobonobo 05:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Delete. Sorry but this is not even close, and those supporting this need to get a lot more convincing than "clearly a valid topic" and the like if they want to avoid deletion. The lead sentence tells us that "Climate change exaggeration is a set of beliefs which overstates the effects of climate change." Really, according to whom? Because if we are going to title an article by a given term we should not be defining it based on the perception of one editor (which is exactly what is happening here, and that's why this is original research). But let's actually look at the references, surely there we'll find reliable sources that define the term "Climate change exaggeration" as we do in the lead sentence. Source one, a US News story, does not have the word "exaggeration" in it (thus it does not back up this phrase) though it does speak to an exaggeration by a climate scientist (this is literally the only source that does). It does not refer to "Climate change exaggeration" (or anything similar) as a term or a phenomenon, it just says one guy made a claim based on little or no data and later admitted it. The Reuters story talks about a simple error, something which was "wrongly stated" and which related to the percentage of the Netherlands under sea level. So it's not an "exaggeration", it's a mistake, and it's not even about climate change, it's about European geography. The NYT article is about an ill-advised slide that Al Gore used to use in his slideshow (the article does not say he was trying to exaggerate), but also about an error by AGW skeptic George Will—i.e. the subject of the articles is errors/exaggerations on both sides, not solely among those who "overstate the effects of climate change" as our "article" says. The fourth footnote is about a poll that says many people think global warming is exaggerated. Surveys also say that many people think football is too violent, American Idol is not worth watching, and Disneyworld is more fun than EuroDisney (or is it the other way around?), but we don't have articles on those things, I guess because public opinion polls are not a good basis for an article, despite Grundle's repeated claims above. The fifth footnote supports one of the most ridiculous, WP:OR/SYNTHish sentences ever, as it points out that kids are scared of global warming (and from that the reader should, I suppose, conclude that the exaggerators are evil, scaring the kids!). Obviously it does not establish that "Climate change exaggeration" is some known, discussed phenomenon. Neither do the five total hits on the phrase in a Google News archive search, all of which seem to refer to the NYT article that happens to say "Climate Change, Exaggeration" in its title (compare with over 500 for a search on "Climate change denial"—see the difference?). In short, there are no reliable sources in the article that establish that there is an observed and discussed phenomenon called "Climate Change Exaggeration" (or any similar name). Some people think climate science is exaggerated, of course, but climate change controversy (and probably elsewhere) is a perfectly fine place to discuss that viewpoint. I'm afraid it's unsurprising that this article was written by the same person who gave us the quickly deleted Michelle Obama's arms, among other bits of egregious original research, and hopefully this one will soon go the same way. The !keep comments are completely unconvincing so that seems likely. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• The article is about the subject of climate change exaggeration, not about the phrase "climate change exaggeration." This old version of my sandbox shows that the article on Michelle Obama's arms was very well sourced - it never should have been deleted. Grundle2600 (talk) 05:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Did you really just go there? Tarc (talk) 05:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that made me smile! But I think the more pressing need is over at Dolly Madison's bosom. Her décolletage was apparently the talk of the town before those cursed redcoats destroyed it! (the town, not her low neckline). As to this AfD I'm afraid you rather missed my point Grundle, and I already read your comment about what you think the article is about above. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

These articles haven't been deleted: Rasputin's penis, Isaac Newton's tooth, Oliver Cromwell's head, and Lord Uxbridge's leg. Grundle2600 (talk) 07:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Can we please just have one AfD where we don't talk about where Rasputin's penis up and ran off to? Let's agree to disagree on whether or not it's in St. Petersburg! But seriously Grundle, you seem to be at the wrong AfD here, though it's fun to remember how you somehow forgot that you created that Michelle Obama's arms article just 14 minutes after you created it. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong delete. Original research, no neutral point of view, no redeeming merit. StuartH (talk) 06:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. It's a little raw in it's appearance but that happens quite often in new articles and I'd like to see it given a chance to improve. There should be no lack of sources these days. I see it just added an Anxiety in Children section and from first hand experience with kids from K-5 this is so true. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but that section is a disaster. For one thing it completely misrepresents what the article says, since the articles do not remotely say anything about "how global warming exaggeration had effected students," it talks about how the science around global warming has effected students. In fact I'm going to delete that entire section right now because the WaPo article is not about this topic in the slightest and we cannot misrepresent sources like that. And Fyunck, are you really saying that in your experience kids are anxious about "climate change exaggeration?" Because that's what this article is about. I think you are saying they are anxious about climate change, and maybe you (or maybe not) and others think that's unfortunate because they feel the science is exaggerated, but I highly doubt kids are losing sleep over "climate change exaggeration," which is the ludicrous claim made in this article. It's not a matter of being "a little raw," it's that this is not anywhere near being an encyclopedia article. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I am saying that children are being psychologically affected by Climate Change Exaggerations. I see it in my extended family and in children I work with. I have seen grade school teachers put on probation for exaggerating to the point of idiocy and the kids going home scared and scarred. I've seen them talk about it on the nightly news. It's a valid topic in today's world and whether one believes the science or not, exaggeration of global warming is happening. And since people are looking it up online it's better if they have a nice neat package right here on wiki where the sources can be checked and everyone can argue to the death what should be included :-). Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Wow, what a nice mine field this is. I agree with Bigtimepeace that the opening sentence is a problem, quite a big problem. However, I do believe that "CC Alarmism" is a notable enough term to warrant an article. Unfortunately, if a significant number of people start believing that man-made climate change is a hoax or at least overblown, if newspapers start reporting on it, if right-wing demagogues start making money off of books indicting environmentalists and scientists for said "alarmism," then WP should have an article on the topic. The article doesn't need to be a POV fork: I think it's pretty clear that there are plenty of notable sources stating that plenty of people think that this alarmism exists. That those people in my opinion are idiots (sorry Grundle, excuses Joep) doesn't change the fact of notability. Grundle, I didn't think that the day would ever come that I'd vote with you! How about it? Drmies (talk) 06:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• My only concern is that you apologized for calling me an idiot - you should never apologize for saying what you believe is the truth. Grundle2600 (talk) 06:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Hehe, I think I may have been in the US too long. Take it easy, Drmies (talk) 06:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem, Drmies, is that this article is not designed to be the article in which you are interested—i.e. about the people who think there is alarmism in global warming and what they say. This article is about the supposed fact of "Climate change exaggeration." That's an irremediable problem in my view, and we're better off starting over from scratch if we must and coming up with some alternative title, possibly combining it with something else. But really I do not see why this cannot simply be covered at climate change controversy. We absolutely cannot have an article about every particular belief of a particular group. "Climate change liars" gets about as many Gnews hits as "Climate change exaggeration," and undoubtedly lots of people think these scientists are liars, but that ain't going to be an article any time soon. If you think this need not be a POV fork (as it currently is), you should explain how we are going to make it not be one, otherwise it should be deleted. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep Seems like a valid article mark nutley (talk) 06:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The closing admin will ignore that comment unless you provide an actual rationale—"seems valid" is not one. I advise the closing admin to carefully peruse all of these reflexive supports that do not actually make an argument of any kind (there may be some delete !votes like that too). --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• delete blatant POV fork William M. Connolley (talk) 08:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Though the title is funny, it is inherently biased and the article is a clear POV fork. Sole Soul (talk) 08:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Clear POV fork. Seems to also be WP:POINTy to complain about Climate change denial. Personally I'd remove climate change denial as well as I think the material about businesses funding opposition can go into the Climate change consensus article without making it unduly bigf or losing the plot. However that something else exists is not a good reason to have this blatant duplicate article with a point of view title. Dmcq (talk) 09:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC).
• Comment. Administrators should note that the above "keep" votes from Tillman, GoRight and TMLutas appear to have been votestacked by Grundle2600. StuartH (talk) 10:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

  On what are you basing this accusation? Please substantiate your charge. --GoRight (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. Jeez, I don't even know what to say about this one. I know every en.wp article that's in any way related to a dramatic real-life issue is bound to be pissy and opinionated, but this article just feels wrong. ZS 10:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Meaningless gibberish when one considers that climate change estimates range widely. "My model's exaggeration is your model's unresponsiveness", etc. That, and it's original research and / or neologism. Another attempt to smuggle denial in by the backdoor? --PLUMBAGO 10:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Plainly a POV-fork born of a regrettable battleground mentality. There is nothing that can be put into this article that would not be better covered elsewhere, with balance and more thoughtful context. E.g. Public opinion on climate change, Politics of global warming, global warming controversy, criticism of IPCC AR4 (although the latter is likely to be renamed to something like Reception of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report for clarity and NPOV), etc. --Nigelj (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong delete This all can be added to one of the many article on GW. Also, I fear this is just going to be another article for arguments and division between editors. The last thing needed is another article to battle over. Add the information to one of the other articles. I also agree with the nom on this. --CrohnieGal 12:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Redirect to Global warming controversy. The title is probably a valid search term, but it is a poor title for an article as it implies that the climate change predictions are indeed exaggerated, causing all sorts of WP:NPOV problems. The global warming/climate change issue has enough political controversy to justify one article, but hardly enough to justify 6-7 articles, each titled with a different term used by global warming skeptics. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

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