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Berliner Ambiguity?

"According to the context of the speech, Kennedy meant that he stood together with West Berliners in their struggle to maintain their freedom against communist aggression."

Well, it shall be be reformulated in post-Coldwar language.

Berlin was an allied enclave in Eastern Europe back in that time. Part of Western Germany

While linguistic ambiguos nobody will think of it. "Ich bin ein Amerikaner" is ambiguos as well.

Agree - Besides which, The USA were just as intransigent as the USSR in the cold war. Kennedy made it perspicuous that he would use force if necessary to preserve the status quo in Berlin, and ran through a couple of defense measures.--Knucmo2 13:44, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is an urban legend.

1) Native German speakers do not think that the phrase is ambigious.

2) There are no known published references to this story at the time of the speech. The first published claim that Kennedy made a grammar error was a New York Times op-ed piece in 1987 from a writer from Gainesville, Florida.

The story seems to have originated in central Florida in the mid-1980's. I Chenyu remember

hearing the story from my high school German teacher in 1986, and I've met people who heard

the story before it was published in 1987 and they all seem to be from central Florida.

Indeed: "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not really ambigious enough to be funny. "Ich bin ein Hamburger" might make a German smirk, though. -- Eloquence

Good thing he wasn't in vienna, "Ich bin ein Wiener", .... Now that would have been embarrassing. For me the whole discussion "Ich bin ein Berliner" vs "Ich bin Berliner" really does not make sense. Of course the latter has not ambiguity, but both correctly mean the same. It's like dicussing "I am american" vs "I am an American". where I see no difference. But then I am a native german speaker, so I may not know the difference between the americans ;-) -- MartinBiely

I plan to go to South America and tell everyone "Soy de Los Angeles" (which is true). Do you think anyone will assume I'm an emissary of God?

There is some dispute over whether Kennedy made an embarassing error. The first published claim that Kennedy made a grammar error was a New York Times op-ed piece in 1987 from a writer from Gainesville, Florida.

I've removed the above line from the article. Only Ed Poor seems to be claiming that it was an embarassing error, and he hasn't attempted to justify this. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 14

1. I think the whole article is stupid. Unless you have some proof that people at the time thought he was calling himself a pastry, why mention it at all? It distracts from his anti-communist message.
2. On the other hand, if you mention the pastry thing as a way of refuting the urban legend, I'd like that. --Ed Poor

I thought that debunking the "urban legend" was the whole point of this article. I didn't write any of it, however, so I can't be sure. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 14

So what is the "urban legend" here? The phrase clearly can be interpreted both ways. The phrase was certainly understood in context. However, the phrase is also inherently ambiguous. (I disagree with the comment above. The reference to "native German speakers" is not relevant because the idiom is specific to Berlin. No Berliner would say ich bin ein Berliner even as a point of emphasis.) When I lived in Berlin (1985-1989), the people I talked to who remembered or talked about the speech mentioned the phrase and it's ambiguity with a sense of fondness - a sense that it made Kennedy's speech stronger and more personal because his command of local idiom was imperfect. They enjoyed telling me about the jelly donut. While I can not confirm that my experience in Berlin preceded this newspaper story in Florida, I have trouble believing that it could have spread so quickly and been accepted as fact in Berlin itself. Rossami 00:32 16 May 2003 (UTC)

Speech or no speech, Berliners are not donuts. A Berliner, although it has much in common with a donut (it's sweet, often jelly-filled and fried), is topologically different from a donut. All donuts have a hole i.e. they are toruses (tori?). No Berliner has a hole i.e. they are topologically equivalent to a sphere. Mmmmh, donuts... 145.254.36.141 17:41 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

They ARE called donuts, at least in Canada, whether it has a hole or not. --Kvasir 12:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1. There is a wiki-page on donuts in wikipedia, from where I think, I triggered off this discussion. It explains all the different forms of donuts. Maybe it would be good to link this article to there.

2. The page itself is obviously of interest, and personaly I am quite amazed, that you can focus on Florida as the origin.

3. There is no danger, that the anti-communism thing is being neglected, since obviously it's the donut that made the speech famous in the US. Over here it's more the fact, that Kennedy wanted to give proof of his personal pity for the split town as an act of inhumanity - may it be by communist or whatever agression.

3. Ambiguity: as a native speaker I feel that nobody will firstly think of the ambiguity, when hearing the phrase. Even for Hamburgers no one will think of people from Hamburg, since the food is pronounced the english way, the people are pronounced the german way (something like Humm - boorger) I have the feeling, that it depends on what is better known: the food or the town, as is the case with the smelly Limburger cheese. So if you desperatly need an ambiguity, take the cheese :-)

-- Guest, Oct.21.2003

What's funny is having taken 2 years of the language from an instructor who was raised in Germany... She also raised the point that berliner was a word that meant jelly donut. it could be a meaning that's indiginous to where the story arose. Just as in NYC, cookies with chocolate and vanilla frosting are refered to as "black and whites" and in upstate NY, they're refered to as half moon cookies. Same cookie, different name. -- another guest. 9.9.2004

grammatically speaking, nationalities (incl. cities) do not get an article. he therefore should have said "Ich bin Berliner." 11/16/04

natively speaking, we can add articles to nationalities etc. but since we normaly don't do it, it sounds like something special was said when someone still does it - don't know what your German-book/-teacher tells you, but that's how we speak over here -- Guest 24 Apr 2005

Shifting Gears to the Simpsons Reference

I know this isn't a simpsons article, but is Mayor Quimby really JFK? I've always seen him as more of a teddy or some sort of amalgam of the whole family from Joe on down... bimalc 10 Aug 2005

• No, I see him as JFK. Their voices both have the same quality to them. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a slightly monotonous way of speaking with few major changes. HereToHelp 22:48, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Different example

I changed the example from Frankfurter to New Yorker. I'm not a native speaker of German but my impression is that the phrase isn't really ambiguous unless someone searches for another meaning. Going by the article on ambiguity Ich bin ein Berliner isn't really ambigious. Here are similar things in English: I have Danish blood in me. Your ancestors were pastries? I deposited $100 in the bank You put $100 on the side of a river? No one would actaully think of the alternative meanings unless pointed out. With the Frankfurter it is clear what is meant but it doesn't take much of an imagination to think of the other meaning. Hence I changed it to New Yorker since that actually requires some thought to think of the magazine.

Can we get a native German speaker(s) to offer their opinion(s)? commonbrick 21:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As my dad would point out, "What about Hamburg?" Paul Dehaye 08:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If someone says "I'm a Hamburger" people will think of the food first and giggle. If someone says "I'm a New Yorker" no one will think of the magazine first. I don't think any German speakers would think of the pastry (Berliner) first. I'm going to come up with some more examples of different levels of ambiguity and see if a German speaker can come here and comment... commonbrick

But notice that the idiom for claiming to be from Berlin is Ich bin Berliner (no article). If a foreigner were to make an analogous mistake in English and say I am a Danish, then assuming his/her listeners were more likely to believe what they were told than to suppose that a mistake had been made, the only correct inference would in fact be that the speaker is a sweet pastry. 150.203.32.254 09:41, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Doing word to word translations can be confusing. Danish is a bad example since it has a different word for the adjective and noun describing people from Denmark. 'Danish' is an adjective (when describing someone from Denmark) and 'Dane' is a noun. However "Danish" is also a pastry in English. Adding or deleting the article can make a big difference - "I am Danish" "I am a Danish" "I am a Dane" "I am Dane". If you use other examples, like where the word is a noun and adjective it sounds fine. "I am German" "I am a German"

I think there are different levels of ambiguity. If someone says "I'm a Hamburger", most people are going to think of the food first, but still understand what they mean. If someone says "I'm part Danish", the possibility that they were talking about a pastry wouldn't enter someones mind. commonbrick 16:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Danish example IS precisely the example fitting in this article similar to the infamous Berliner phrase. If Kennedy was to say this today "I am a Danish" in the Danish language, and THEN translated back into English, yep, it would give ME a giggle. Also the current article presents the event with the POV that it was an urban myth as fact. I think it is neccessary to adjust the tone to a more neutral one. --Kvasir 12:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Danish example is bad because it would never be translated as "I am a Danish". If you are trying to say you are a citizen of Denmark you'd say "I am a Dane" or "I am Danish". The sentence "I am a Danish" doesn't make sense if you are saying you're from Denmark. commonbrick 18:26, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That is exactly why it is similar to "Ich bin ein Berliner". I see what you were saying about noun and adjective. The reason this phrase went down into the history books was because of the incorrect use of the article. It is also pointless to search for an exact equivalent situation grammatically and culturally in another language to mirror that. --Kvasir 18:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree it is pointless to find a translation - there is none. I just added some external links that talk about it. It seems adding the article 'ein' means you are LIKE a citizen of Berlin. I'll probably make things more confusing by trying to explain it so I'll let the articles do it :). commonbrick 18:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

At any rate, the use of the indefinite article in German language "origin" sentences ("I am <insert placename here>.") should be discussed/referenced in the article, for the sole reason that native English speakers who have learned a little German might be confused/misinformed as to native German speakers' usage, which is, at least in part, the reason for the meme's continued propagation. (e.g. I was taught that it was incorrect to use a definite article in expressing belonging to country/profession - "Ich bin Metzger" not "Ich bin ein Metzger.") 23:58, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I found the rule here (source in German) It is used when refering to an instance of a class (such as Kennedy being an instanciation of the idealistic class 'Berliner' rather than being a physical 'Berliner'). By this he defined 'Berliner' as being a classification for all free human beings. By the way: I tend to believe that this is something which is valid in most european languages, isn't it? -- 82.212.44.207 16:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now it just needs to be added to the article :). Some of the external links discuss the use of 'ein' too so you might want to check them out. commonbrick 00:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

oh boy - I AM a native speaker, I have not emigrated as a child and I have managed to get a decent degree over here, so I do think I know the meaning of words in my language. Let me tell you: the article is excellent at the moment :-) This donut-thing doesn't pop up to people in Germany, not in Berlin nor elsewhere. Maybe they used it in Berlin to confuse a stranger from the states to test his language skills - ever thought of that? (I think that's called observer bias or something like that) Ever wonder, why the German Wiki-Article doesn't even mention the donut-thing with one word? As I stated in the discussion section for the donut article two years ago, Kennedy is very appreciated for this phrase over here. Let's create another urban myth instead: the urban myth "Ich bin ein Berliner" was deliberately created by conservative forces in Florida =:-O trying to discredit an internationally well appreciated democratic president :-D -- Guest 24 Apr 2005

Other Examples

All of these are ambiguous. Some will get a few chuckles, others won't. The meanings are clear with the right context but some will get a giggle because everyone will think of the alternative meaning first. I've listed the first thing I would think of first, followed by other interpretations.

No chuckles

I am a New Yorker. - from New York City, magazine, Chrysler New Yorker

I am part Danish. - ancestors were from Denamrk, pastry

I ate a Hamburger - ate food, ate a person from Hamburg

Chuckles

I am a Hamburger. - food, from the city of Hamburg

I am a Frankfuter. - hot dog, from the city of Frankfurt

commonbrick 18:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Interestingly, Kennedy did get a laugh a moment after he first used the phrase, but deliberately." This whole section needs explanation, because the section immediately preceeding it says that the phrase was greet with cheers and applause. Explanations? DJ Clayworth 22:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

so lächerlich

This article and discussion are really ridiculous. Nobody in Germany ever misunderstood Kennedy. All the people knew what he meant, nobody thought of anything else than "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins". There is no better statement Kennedy could give. You state "Ich bin Berliner" if you are asked "Aus welcher Stadt kommst du?", but if you proudly announcing "Ich bin ein Berliner" everybody would use "ein".

Please cut down the article, this urban legend Quatsch is based on some poor jokes some people made later, when Kennedys speech got part of Popkultur. From my point of view a little sentence like "Statements that Kennedy was misunderstood for having stated "I'm a jelly donut" (Berliner can mean both a citizen of Berlin and a kind of donut in Germany) because of wrong use of German grammar is an urban legend and just wrong" (or something like that) would be enough about that.

Entschuldigung, my English isn't the best, when I got embarrassed of a bad article. --::Slomox >< 16:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are so completely right. Discussing about this is so completely rediculous and non-sense.

I can't believe any non-native speaker would make that kind of an issue of this non-issue thing that a native speaker wouldn't even think discussing about; especially Berlin-based ones.

I bet this once started as a filler for some kind of . --Pixelpope User talk:Pixelpope 22 Aug 2005 (CET)

"about as likely to be misinterpreted ..."

I don't think the question is misinterpretation. Of course nobody thought that Kennedy was actually claiming to be a jelly doughnut. The question is whether some people in the crowd were amused by the apparent double-entendre. The statement is not ambiguous, because it was clear what he meant; it has, however, the possibility of being a double-entendre. (I know a German who is not a Berliner and who was there. She understood exactly what he meant, but still found it mildly amusing.) Whether it occurred to the majority of German-speakers present is what is in question.

That being said, the "analogous example" is not analogous at all. There is no analogous example in English. The grammatical issue at work in the sentence "Ich bin ein Berliner" has no equivalent in English. In English, the article is -always- used in such a sentence, and therefore the is no question of ambiguity.

By the way, is there an article on the actual speech itself? I don't know enough about the speech to write the article, but it certainly deserves one. While the "Berliner" sentence is famous, the speech itself was far more important. - Che Nuevara, the Democratic Revolutionary 20:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can't imagine, that anybody in the crowd was amused by the statement, supposed they weren't a bit weird, because it isn't really funny. You know one German, I am a German and know hundreds or thousands of Germans, never met one stating he or she was amused by this. --::Slomox >< 30 June 2005 18:09 (UTC)

The bottom of the article has a link to wikisource which has the speech online. As for the article I think it can be added or dropped in an English sentence: "I am American" "I am an American". Both mean the same thing. commonbrick 1 July 2005 00:53 (UTC)

Of course noone thought he was claiming to be a jelly doughnut. And I trust Slomox, if noone was amused by the "double-entendre", noone was. It could be that they didn't expect German so abruptly. HereToHelp 22:54, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

"Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Ich bin Berliner" is the same thing. There is no difference, there is no other meaning and both is grammatical right. The only problem is that the jelly doughnuts are also called Berliner. I´ve often heared a joke like: He said the wrong phrase, he wanted to say I want a Berliner ;-) Jonny84 21:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It Must Be Jelly 'Cause Jam Don't Shake Like That

Someone had changed all instances of "jelly" to "jam" (i.e. "jam doughnuts"), saying that "jelly" is only used in North America. I have reverted it back to "jelly" for several reasons:

• Do people in other (English speaking) countries really say "jam doughnut" instead of "jelly doughnut"?
• Even if they did, this is an article about an American president, and the urban legend originated in America. No one in the US would ever say "jam doughnut". Certainly not in Florida, where the legend originated. And I'm sure the original NY Times letter had "jelly", not "jam".
• All the discussions contain "jelly doughnut". As does the link at the bottom of the page.
• A Google search yields only 903 hits for "jam doughnut", and 14,600 hits for "jelly doughnut".

--JW1805 28 June 2005 16:33 (UTC)

See the articles for jam and jelly. They are different things. To most people outside of North America, "jam" is what North Americans call "jelly", and "jelly" is something different. The article needs to clarify what is meant by the use of "jelly". I thought I made a good attempt at it but someone reverted my changes. OptimusPrime 2 July 2005 18:19 (UTC)

There does seem to be some confusion in the various articles. In common American speech, "Jam" is a fruit paste with pulp. "Jelly" is a fruit paste without pulp. "Jelly" can also mean other sorts of artificial fruit-like spreads, and in general other gelatinous materials (like petroleum jelly). But not gelatine (which is usually just called "Jell-O", which is a brand name). In any case, "jelly doughnuts" (regardless of how much pulp the filling contains) are always called "jelly doughnuts", and never "jam doughnuts". Maybe what is needed is a Jelly Doughnut article, or a note in Berliner_(pastry). --JW1805 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

You cannot assume that what is common in your country is common internationally. What North Americans (or maybe just USAians?) call "jelly" is called "jam" in most other countries. By extension, what North Americans (or maybe just USAians?) call "jelly doughnuts" are called "jam doughnuts" elsewhere. This story has spread far beyond the USA. Most people/countries call it the "jam doughnut" urban myth. It wouldn't make any sense for them to call it "jelly doughnut". The article should be unambiguous. OptimusPrime 3 July 2005 04:17 (UTC)

It just doesn't seem logical, when describing an American urban legend about an American president to use a phrase ("jam doughnut") that does not exist in America. That would be like calling the comic strip Gasoline Alley "Petrol Alley" because the term "petrol" is used in other countries. That being said, I agree that the article should be unambiguous. Maybe having both phrases is a good compromise (but, it does seem a bit redundant). --JW1805 3 July 2005 05:35 (UTC)

Doing a google search for "I am a jelly doughnut" and "I am a jam doughnut" and using the two doughnut spellings gives 1560 hits for jelly an 117 for jam. Clearly jelly is the more common translation. Just becasue "jam doughnut" is more common in the rest of the world doesn't mean we have to use it. It's an urban legend started in the US about an American president, hence use American English words. I'm putting it back to jelly doughnut. commonbrick 3 July 2005 05:53 (UTC)

Google measures web usage only. It is not an acceptible measure of language usage as a whole. This is not an issue of US English versus other forms. The article needs to be unambiguous, which means that it needs to mention all variations of the legend. That is what I have been trying to do. Maybe there is a better way to do it (I am open to suggestions), but I see nothing wrong with my version. It mentions the two most popular versons of the myth, giving preference to the original US version (by mentioning it first) in the heading. At the beginning of the third paragraph of that section, the origins of the myth are explained as "The jelly doughnut urban legend apparently arose in Florida in the 1980s". In the article, "jelly" is used in reference to the myth in the USA, and "jam" is used elsewhere. As the jelly article shows, referring to "jelly" as "jam" is a regional variation peculiar to North America. The myth itself is called "jam doughnut" in many countries.

Basically, the article should be equally comprehensible to everyone, whether they are from North America or elsewhere. - OptimusPrime July 3, 2005 06:09 (UTC)

Google is the closest thing we have to measuring a language. Every search ("I am a jelly/jam doughnut/donut" and "jelly/jam doughnut/donut") done using google shows jelly as the more commonly used word, but somehow jam is less ambigious? You said "the article should be equally comprehensible to everyone, whether they are from North America or elsewhere" so how is using jam anymore comprehensible. Neither jam or jelly will be more comprehensible or less ambigious than the other. I'm putting it back to jelly - not because it is more comprehensible - but because that is the more commonly used phrase according to google, because that was the original word in the urban legend, and because it was an American president giving a speech. I've created a little list below for reasons to use jam vs jelly, feel free to add to it. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

I always heard it as jelly doughnut. I've also always heard it as truth, rather than urban legend, so I guess I'm not a good source. HereToHelp 22:50, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Jam

• Used in more countries

Jelly

• Used by almost 75% of native English speakers
• More hits using google

• "jelly/jam doughnut/donut" - Jelly 39,200 and Jam 1,521
• "I am a jelly/jam doughnut/donut" - Jelly 1,560 and Jam 117

• Was the orignal word used in the urban legend
• Speech given by an American president

I like the new version. Kudos to JW1805. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:42 (UTC)

• English is an international language, so counting only "native" speakers is pointless. Millions of people worldwide use it as a secondary language, and often use it fluently. Some countries (e.g. India) have English as an official language, despite most citizens not learning it as their first language.
• Google stats are next to useless. Web use is not world use.
• Nobody is arguing that jam was used in the original legend, or that the speesch was not given by a US president. You are attacking a straw man.

With that said, I don't mind the new version. I think it should be understandable enough to non-USAians. - OptimusPrime July 4, 2005 00:11 (UTC)

I'm not going to aruge over jelly and jam anymore. We have an article we can both agree on so lets just drop it. commonbrick 4 July 2005 02:04 (UTC)

could we discuss this here: Talk:Berliner_(pastry) this page is about Kennedy, not about what a Berliner_(pastry) is --androl

Laughter after the phrase?

Some people say there was laughter after the phrase, some say it was applause On the German page I read there was laughter because Kennedy thanked his translator for translating his German phrase into German

Follow the external link at the end of the article to hear the speech for yourself. There was applause after "Ich bin ein Berliner", no laughter. commonbrick 12:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I added the laughter into the German page, because I found it in this article here - someone must have changed it in the meantime :-) -- Guest

Anonymous reverts

I spent some time rewriting and, I hope, improving the article, only to have it immediately reverted several times, mostly by anonymous users such as 38.114.48.102, who used a disingenuous edit description ("struggle rather than rivalry") to conceal the revert.

The problems with the older article, which I have sought to correct, are:

• It appears to assert that an urban legend is true ("As a result of Kennedy's improper use of German grammar...") False. (I live in Berlin, and I've met Robert Lochner, who was fully bilingual; and again, the speech and the phrase were tested on the Berlin leadership, not pulled out of thin air).
• It contains original research, such as claims about Kennedy's grammar and the statement that the German Ausländer is translated as "outlander" (it means "foreigner").
• It turned into a meandering discussion about jam vs. jelly doughnut, which is irrelevant (and was inaccurate) and belongs on a different page if it is worthy of analysis.
• It gave no context to Kennedy's speech, one of the most important of the postwar era.
• It was written unclearly, with no germane introduction to the legend, meandering passages, etc.

If you think this edit needs change, by all means change and improve it, that's what Misplaced Pages is for. But immediate reversion of a substantial edit is vandalism. ProhibitOnions 07:09:38, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

• There was a long discussion above about the fact that "jelly doughnuts" are called "jam doughnuts" outside North America, and to avoid confusion, this was explicitly stated in the older version of the article. Your edit completely removed this information. --JW1805 15:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

JW1805, the attention paid to the "jelly/jam" issue, in terms of this article and its historical importance, is many times more than necessary for disambiguation. The urban legend, which is common in the US but -- according to the article -- only there, uses the American form of the word. I don't think the confusion between jam and jelly is very great, because even many Americans use the terms interchangeably (there was a famous ad using this as a hook, actually). I rate the entire need to reference "jam doughnuts" irrelevant given the focus of this article; indeed, I find it parochial. If an article referenced a murder placing his victim in the trunk, do we need a paragraph explaining that in England, it's called a boot? And then another explaining that in America, a boot means footwear? --Dhartung | Talk 18:04, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Even if a lengthy discussion of doughnut types were necessary, the urban legend section in the previous version began with the convoluted, off-topic sentence "The jam-filled doughnuts known to Americans and Canadians as jelly doughnuts (called jam doughnuts elsewhere), are called Berliners outside Berlin (but usually referred to as Pfannkuchen in Berlin itself)." I replaced it with "A common urban legend falsely asserts that Kennedy made a grammatical error and referred to himself as a pastry, rather than a citizen of Berlin." Which actually has something to do with the urban legend.

JW1805, I did not "completely remove information" referring to doughnut terminology. I mentioned both terms, so anyone unable to grasp what a jelly doughnut is would see the term "jam-filled doughnut" a few words later. As it is, Pfannkuchen are not usually filled with either jam or jelly, but with plum sauce, so going into the fine details of what "Americans and Canadians" call a similar item is a little irrelevant. ProhibitOnions, 2005-09-11

It makes sense to me, but the original problem was that English-speakers outside of North America are supposedly confused by the term "jelly-doughnut", since "jelly" means something different. So, the meandering sentence was the result of a compromise which specificaly spelled out that a "jelly-doughnut" in North America is equivalent to a "jam-doughnut" elsewhere.--JW1805 21:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Ich bin ein English-speaker outside North America myself, and am not confused. (Uproarious laughter!) I've edited the text a little more today, hopefully it is now even clearer than it was before as to what was meant. Pfannkuchen/Berliner are, as I have written, filled doughnuts. A similar thing called a jelly doughnut exists in a part of the world where this urban legend arose, made clear by context. But now that I think about it, West Berlin was only 82 km away from the Polish People's Republic, and there the equivalent pastries were called pączki... ProhibitOnions 00:10:11, 2005-09-13 (UTC)

What was relevant was the following sentence in the older edit, which stated unequivocally that the nonsensical legend was true: "As a result of Kennedy's improper use of German grammar, his statement was amusingly analagous to ("I am a jelly doughnut", or "I am a jam doughnut")." The fact that the article repeats an easily disprovable falsehood as fact ought to have been of a little more concern, but the aforementioned anonymous users reverted this several times. Nor did the earlier version mention anything of importance about the speech, which was one of the most memorable and significant of the past 60 years.

I'm not claiming that the revision I did is the final word on the topic — on the contrary, Dhartung's, 66.30.24.130's, and Assawyer's additions and edits have already made it better, and I have also added some more background detail. But immediate, repeated reverts, particularly those labeled as something else, are not nice. ProhibitOnions 00:01:47, 2005-09-11 (UTC)

Since Berlin once had a large Jewish population, and there are a lot of Jews in the US, perhaps we should also mention that in Hebrew these are called "סופגניות" (sufganiyoth)? Tomer 20:14, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Sure, but then we'd have to have a whole discussion on Sufjan Stevens. Are we sure there's room in the article? --Dhartung | Talk 21:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

The Kennedys are from Martha's Vineyard, so we should probably include a discussion of New England dialects of American English as well... Tomer 06:07, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

Thanks to the usual vandal, this time masquerading as "Prohibit0nions" (with an 0 instead of an O), I have requested that this page be protected. ProhibitOnions 17:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The urban legend is much older than the article says

I first heard this legend (and believed it and passed it on, I'm afraid) in high school in Wisconsin sometime during 1971 or early 1972. It did not begin in Florida in the 1980s as the article claims. --24.16.140.106 23:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Anjouli was there

Just for the record I was there and heard the speech live. I agree with ProhibitOnions. (And anyone who impersonates deserves an infinite ban.) --Anjouli 07:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow! ProhibitOnions 14:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

More Jelly Donuts

The part about laughter in the crowd at Kennedy's German is almost certainly apocryphal. The intent of his words was clear. Kennedy paid a compliment to the citizens of Berlin by speaking that phrase in their language. It's hard to convey the siege mentality of West Berlin during the Cold War era. I visited as the two Germanies were preparing to reunite. Any adult in the crowd who attended Kennedy's speech was old enough to remember the Berlin airlift. They welcomed the statement of support from the most powerful statesman in the world.

Having said that, every instructor in every German course I ever took made a point of explaining Kennedy's construction as a grammatical error - a forgivable one in its context, but one that we should never emulate in formal settings. This began in 1983, four years before the "legend" supposedly originated. Most of these instructors were professors of German at Columbia University and native speakers of the language. My own grandmother, a native German speaker who worked as a translator for Allied intelligence during World War II, agreed that Kennedy made a mistake to use the preposition "ein." None of these native speakers offered the reasoning now cited about figurative usage in Kennedy's defense, although they explained many other subtleties and idiomatic distinctions about the German language.

The particular turn of phrase is so associated with Kennedy that a political cartoon in Der Stern paraphrased it around 1990. The West German seat of government had been in the city of Bonn and an overwhelming majority vote agreed to move the unified capital to its historic seat in Berlin. In the cartoon a lonely politician stood on an office building ledge, looking at the sidewalk far below as if contemplating suicide while holding a sign that read, "Ich bin ein Bonner." (Figuratively, "I would like to keep the capital in Bonn.") Part of the cartoon's wit is its implicit denigration of minority opinion by association with Kennedy's mistaken phrasing.

When I visited Germany I sometimes asked about this phrase. I was relatively fluent at the time so this usually arose as part of a long conversation in German. The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly. What mattered was Kennedy's message of support. English speakers who don't understand German language and culture have blown this out of proportion. I wouldn't go so far as to call the whole matter an urban legend. I suspect there are political overtones to the recent apologetics for Kennedy's grammar.

Here's a parallel example for English speakers who don't speak German: it's like the difference between saying, "I am Danish," and "I am a danish." It's only humorous out of context and in retrospect. Durova 05:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)