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Motions

Shortcuts WP:ARM WP:ARBM This page can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Motions. Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You may visit WP:ARC or WP:ARCA for potential alternatives. Make a motion (Arbitrators only) You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion" or in some cases only in your own section. Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment.

• WP:A/R/M

Motions regarding Speed of Light and Brews ohare

User:Brews ohare

1) Brews ohare's topic ban is modified to expire in 90 days from the date that this motion passes. The supplementary restrictions of Brews ohare (namely, restrictions from posting on physics related disputes or the Misplaced Pages/Wikipedia talk namespaces) will also expire 90 days from the date that this motion passes. Brews ohare is instructed that continued violations of his existing restrictions will lead to the 90 day timer being reset in additional to any discretionary enforcement action taken.

Support

1. I was hoping that this wasn't going to be necessary. Brews ohare seemed to finally understand the situation he was in when he initially replied to the "Moving Forward" suggestion during his appeal at WP:AN. However, subsequent comments unfortunately went down the same old track (continued Wikilawyering and disruption in this area). We are offering the carrot/stick approach here. If he can abide by his restrictions without further disruption, then it will be resolved in 90 days (although I would caution it not be taken as further license to be disruptive at that time!). If he cannot abide by the restrictions, then it will be indefinite (along with any further blocks he receives for his actions in this area). SirFozzie (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
2. Reluctantly as I'm sure stronger measures will be needed later. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
3. Kirill  02:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
4.  Roger Davies 05:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
5. Per SirFozzie. And a plea to all involved to find articles to edit quietly until these restrictions end. You should all be capable of doing that (all editors should be capable of doing that), so please show us you can do that, as that will count in your favour if there are future disputes once the restrictions end (though the hope is that by editing quietly people can learn how to take a less adversarial approach to editing). Carcharoth (talk) 05:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
6. Shell 00:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
7. I would nevertheless recommend that Brews stays clear of the original dispute around the definition of physical units. — Coren  10:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

User:Brews ohare alternate

1.1) Brews ohare's topic ban is modified to expire in 180 days from the date that this motion passes. The supplementary restrictions of Brews ohare (namely, restrictions from posting on physics related disputes or the Misplaced Pages/Wikipedia talk namespaces) are withdrawn the date that this motion passes. Brews ohare is instructed that violations of his topic ban will lead to the 180 day timer being reset in additional to any discretionary enforcement action taken.

Support

1. I don't see the sanctions we imposed as overly problematic, and I do think they're necessary (although they could be narrowed). However, the AE-imposed sanctions seem harsh to me and should be discarded if at all possible. Cool Hand Luke 18:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
2. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The fact that Brews ohare has been blocked three times in less than a month (under these terms) means that the Supplementary sanctions should stay at least the 90 day timer. SirFozzie (talk) 18:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
2. I could support this if it was 90 days, not 180. Carcharoth (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
3. Shell 00:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Abstain

Brews ohare advocacy restrictions

1) Count Iblis, David Tombe, Likebox, and Hell in a Bucket are indefinitely restricted from advocacy for or commenting on Brews ohare, broadly construed. Should any of these editors violate this restriction, they may be blocked for up to 24 hours by any uninvolved administrator. After five three blocks, the maximum block length shall rise to one week.

Support

1. I have to say, that the actions of the above named editors in consistently and continually attempting to re-litigate the Speed of Light ArbCom case and Brews ohare's restrictions has made this area a WP:BATTLEGROUND and has indeed been counterproductive for Brews ohare. They feed into his desire to fight this issue again and again and again ad nauseum. While I understand they consider themselves to have nothing but the best motives for this fight, I think it's time we asked them to stop being counterproductive for Brews ohare's sake. SirFozzie (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
2. Reluctantly as I'm sure stronger measures will be needed later. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
3. Steve Smith (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
4. Kirill  02:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
5. I've amended five blocks to three blocks. Undo if you don't agree.  Roger Davies 05:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
6. I am usually reluctant to restrict other people from participating in disputes that arise after an arbitration case has closed, but sometimes it does become apparent that some people bring more heat than light to discussions. Arbitration is meant to be the final stage in dispute resolution, not setting the stage for further battles. The time to debate and argue about things is before and during arbitration, not afterwards. And while there should still be a right to appeal, that right should be limited to the person under the restriction (with help from others if they request it and the request is granted). Allowing an indiscriminate number of others to add to such appeals just creates noise, when what is often needed is direct one-to-one communication between the sanctioned and those doing the sanctioning (in this case, admins at AE). I would also urge that if one of the four editors named above is brought to arbitration enforcement, that the other three don't get involved (that should be common sense, but it seems this needs to be explicitly stated). Carcharoth (talk) 06:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
7. Cool Hand Luke 18:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
8. Shell 00:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
9. What Brews needs to realize is that the virulent "advocacy" those editors have been doing is a major factor in the community's (and the Committee's) patience running thin. — Coren  10:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Discussion

Please comment only in your own section. To comment for the first time, add a new section below, and entitle it "Comments by ". Comments added to another editor's section will be removed by a clerk.

Comment from Brews ohare

With regard to proposed motion on my restrictions

In view of the difficulties that have arisen in the past over interpretation of the sanctions, both the original ArbCom sanctions and even more so the Tznkai additions, I request an explicit statement of just what constitutes a violation and what the corresponding sanctions are. The existing statements include provisions that clearly no longer apply, and ambiguities that history shows should be resolved. I also object to the old wording allowing any "uninvolved" administrator to take action, especially with a motion so vague as the present one, that basically gives carte blanche to any administrator, who is free to interpret anything over a vague range of activity as a violation. Once done, such an action cannot be reversed without an extensive hearing, which again will take forever as the motion is very unclear. Language is needed requiring a "substantial consensus" before action can be implemented.

This motion is a model of muddiness. Whatever is done, I believe it is clear that rewording is needed. As matters now stand, no-one voting on this vague motion has a clear idea of what the motion really is. And I don't either. Brews ohare (talk) 04:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

With regard to restriction of commentary on future actions by whomsoever

Whatever the ruling regarding my own restrictions, limitations upon people's rights to express themselves in the future are not acceptable, especially indefinitely into the future. It is tantamount to claiming administrators are clairvoyant, and know what is going to happen. The claim that the named parties are continually re-fighting old battles cannot be substantiated, and in any event is a commentary on past actions. The "bringing more heat than light" argument is insufficient to support muzzling, and personally I'd say it applies more obviously to the administrators themselves, who have brought all this brouhaha down upon us by poor decisions. I also object to the wording allowing any "uninvolved" administrator to take action. The first action taken by a wandering administrator is irreversible within 24 hours because of the appeal limitations. If adopted, language should be added that a majority vote must be found before any action can be taken: that way, the administrator would at least be made aware of the context for a decision. This motion is arbitrary abrogation of editors' rights where no, repeat no, infraction has occurred. Brews ohare (talk) 05:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Hell in a Bucket

12 hours later and this motion is still nonsense. The motions here do not address the root cause of this issue, indeed they increase the angst felt toward the arbcom committee. It only puts the brakes on people who disagree, why? If you want a meaningful peace and have any interest in fairness or even the attempt of looking reasonable try talking to the people you demonize. Explain yourself, don't cry for Brews head every week. Whatever you think we aren't the people bring the enforcement hearings every time someone thinks brews had a thought about something physics related. Talk to the people who continue to make this a issue for Brews, and now by extention myself and others. How does this lessen disruption? It only throws gasoline on a already out of control situation. Good luck this situation is the Arbcom's fault. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Likebox

Remember when I suggested that you don't pass motions restricting users that haven't broken any rules? This is an example of where you should take this advice. It's just silliness to expect that anyone will comment on Brews ohare once his sanctions are modified/lifted.Likebox (talk) 06:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Count Iblis

The restriction should not apply after Brews' topic ban is lifted, as I argue in detail on the talk page. During the time that Brews' topic ban is in effect, you can still imagine that we could have relevant information that needs to be communicated for Brews to get a fair hearing (apart from mere advocacy that is only based on subjective judgements that Brews is not being treated fairly). I suggest that we be allowed to communicate via email to ArbCom, perhaps with some restrictions like only one email of a maximum of 200 words length per person. After that it is up to ArbCom to ask for more information and we can then only respond as directed by ArbCom.

This exception could be necessary because Brews, Likebox and me are involved in the same general subject areas. It is e.g. not unthinkable that Brews and Likebox will edit some math article toghether. If a dispute about that were to arise (e.g. someone claims that Brews is making physics related edits), then excluding Likebox from explaining what exactly they are doing on that article would not be a good idea.

One cannot assume that uninvolved editors can always give enough information in such a case, especially given the polarized nature of the situation. The recent brouhaha on the infraparticle article in which Likebox was blocked for 3 months based on incomplete information by Headbomb and later unblocked when all the facts emerged, speaks volumes.

Count Iblis (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by 66.127.52.47

Likebox's view that "Abrasive opinionated assholes are the only good content contributors. Only these people have something nontrivial to say." illustrates what we are up against. Brews is not being helped by that. I mostly edit in math and CS. Math in particular has been blessed with some truly magnificent contributors, who are generally as sweet as pie, not abrasive at all, even to relative lamers like me. I am getting the impression that the editing culture around physics articles sucks by comparison, and that many of the best physics editors of the past have left the project. If so, that is a wider problem that the policy and DR communities ought to be made aware of. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)