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• Talk:John J. Pershing/Archive 1

Racism

There were unsourced statements in the article stating or implying that Pershing was racist (against native americans and blacks). Per WP:V (particularly WP:REDFLAG) these types of statements in particular must be verifiable. I removed the statements, if someone wants to provide a verifiable source please do so before replacing them. Seanfranklin (talk) 23:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The source for the statement is the article by Ron Daniels, reproduced here: http://www.northstarnews.com/columns/dr_ron_daniels/article/1214/. "Confined to segregated units and fighting under the command of General Foch of France (American General “Black Jack” Pershing despised Blacks and wanted nothing to do with them as soldiers), Black soldiers, most notably the 369th Infantry, also known as the Harlem Hell Fighters, fought with great valor in a number of battles." Still, I'm not ready to put this material back in the article. Daniels produces no source for his claim. He refers solely to black soldiers' service in World War I, and it's not clear if he's even aware that Pershing had previously commanded black soldiers in America. And the statement that American blacks served directly under Foch contradicts just about every other source I've read, which says that Pershing insisted on keeping all American forces under his personal command. Ergo, I'm not ready to say that Daniels' article is a reliable source. Pirate Dan (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I am especially doubtful about the claim that Pershing relinquished command of black soldiers; as I understand it, part of the point was insuring that Americans fought as cohesive units instead of being committed piecemeal to the front as replacements for French casualties, which belies the reference's claims about black units. --CAVincent (talk) 01:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Error?

I noticed that Pershing's sisters are listed as Ann Elizabeth, Margaret, and May, but later the article states that "Pershing's sister Grace married Paddock in 1890." Does someone have the resources to clarify this apparent discrepancy? 70.169.173.253 (talk) 17:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems true: . Apparently the list of his siblings in the overview is incomplete.--Father Goose (talk) 21:39, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

References

The "Other honors" section has maybe thirty statements, and one reference between them! That is extreme even by Misplaced Pages's usually lax standards of referencing, and I propose that they are removed. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that, tag them as uncited and if after an amount of time, say a week, they are still uncited, they could be trimmed, anything that is uncited and controversial could perhaps be removed quicker. Off2riorob (talk) 17:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Dispute over presentation of nickname

Formerly Derogatory Name

Broken up into the three main threads with the vote at the bottom. -OberRanks (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Original Thread (Part I)

I have removed the term "Nigger Jack" from the nickname template which is visible in the info box. This name was used as an insult to Pershing by a fraction of those who knew him; most often by West Point cadets and then as a vile type of slur. The term "Blackjack" was far more widely known and is referenced in many military texts. And, while WP does not censor any info, the info about his n-ggr name is best spoken of in the text of the article, not in the highly visible information box at the start of the article since this was never a widely spoken of nickname and certainly nothing that Pershing ever went by himself. -OberRanks (talk) 12:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:ANI thread has been created. SGGH 13:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with those at the ANI thread who opined that this belongs in text, with explanation and sources, not in the infobox or lede.--Arxiloxos (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I also agree, not in the infobox, as it is clearly derogatory it should be in the body of the text and explained. Off2riorob (talk) 17:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It was only the press, during World War I, who dubbed him "Black Jack", as a euphesim for his true nickname, "Nigger Jack". Someone who removes something that has stood for that amount of time should shoulder the burden of proof of a reliable source that this name was not, in fact, widely used.Mk5384 (talk) 07:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The "Nigger Jack" nickname is very extensively documented: , as is the fact that "Black Jack" is a bowdlerized version of it. Whether or not it is derogatory or perhaps distasteful to some readers is irrelevant: it was his nickname, as well as the origin of his later nickname. I think the current way it is presented ("Black Jack" (originally "Nigger Jack")) is utterly appropriate. The exact details of both nicknames are explained in the body of the article. However, I do feel it would be appropriate to add a citation for the nicknames directly in the infobox.--Father Goose (talk) 07:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

So, if both nicknames are fully explained in the body of the article then why insist in having them both in the high profile infobox, remove both nicknames from the infobox altogether, it is a fact that the vast majority of people do not read articles at all the check out the lede and move on. Why is it important to have clearly visible in bright letters of a respected soldier a derogatory nickname as a high profile claim to fame? Is it just user dather goose that wants it there? Off2riorob (talk) 08:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

(copied from the talk page of User:OberRanks): I would like to point out to you that General Pershing's nickname of "Nigger Jack" has nothing to do with shock value, and has been on the page for a long time. You gave the example of using that word as a nickname for President Obama if an angry soldier were to call him that. Talk about shock value- You're saying that a person having that nickname, and a person being called that name by one person equate to the same thing. As the article states, the nickname was given to Pershing in 1897 at West Point. The press began calling him "Black Jack" as a euphemism during World War I. The U.S. entered WWI in 1918. He had that nickname for 21 years before even being called "Black Jack". That name is horrible, but it is correct, and as we all know, Misplaced Pages is not censored. As I have said, that name has been in the box in that article for some time. If you, or other editors wish to remove it, the burden of proof is on you to provide a reliable source saying that the name "Nigger Jack" was rarely used. Thank you.Mk5384 (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2010

Actually, per WP:BURDEN, the info would have to be sourced to stay in, not to be removed. That is not the issue here; the issue is the appropriateness of it in the info box. The information is already in the article, so it an issue of WP:CENSOR but rather WP:COMMONSENSE -OberRanks (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I also agree that is is documented, but there is no need to have a nickname which is a racial slur in a highly visible intro box. The matter is already discussed in the body of the article. Having a name which is clearly a racial slur in a main info box of a famous military character will draw fire and it most likely be removed over and over again. And this hasn't really been in there for that long (perhaps a few months at the most) and it appears to have slipped through the cracks until now. We could also use a reference note next to "Black Jack" as a compromise. But, for right now, we have 3 users here plus two more on the ANI stating this is not appropriate. I believe we should keep it out per WP:CON. -OberRanks (talk) 12:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I have removed both nicknames for the time being until the matter is resolved. Please note to all concerned that to re-add either would break WP:CON since this is an unresolved dispute. -OberRanks (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

And I have returned them, as they were removed without consensus. On the contrary, to remove them again will break WP:CON. They were in there for over a year. Leave them as they were whilst the dispute is resolved.Mk5384 (talk) 03:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it appears to me that the consensus here is quite clearly against retaining this in the infobox. Could you please explain why you disagree? --Arxiloxos (talk) 04:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that the majority of those who have commented so far were in favor of not including "Nigger Jack", but Misplaced Pages doesn't work according to "majority rule" -- majority and consensus are not synonymous. But it doesn't work according to minority rule either.

Policy bashing like this (on both sides) is one of the best ways to ensure that consensus will never be achieved.--Father Goose (talk) 05:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Before stating that the information has been there "perhaps a few months at best", how about doing some simple research? They have appeared there since, at least September 2008. I don't think that any reasonable editor would consider 19 months to be "a few". Father Goose has provided no less than 62 different sources referring to General Pershing as "Nigger Jack". There are now inline citations, next to the nicknames in the article. Misplaced Pages is not censored. Typing in "Nigger Jack" redirects to the John Pershing article. The burden of proof for keeping the names as they are has far been exceeded.Mk5384 (talk) 06:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

My view is that if "nigger" were not an awful, shocking, offensive word, there wouldn't be a debate over whether the nickname should be included in the infobox. Thus I really do think censorship is at play here.

However, I also accept that if we are to have the nickname in the infobox, some context should be offered. "Black Jack (originally 'Nigger Jack')" offers some context; adding a citation for the relation of the two names within the infobox would add more context. What more could be done? I'm open to ideas.--Father Goose (talk) 05:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

(Copied from User talk:OberRanks): I have added the nicknames back to the infobox. Contrary to what you have stated, to remove them is to break WP:CON, as you removed something that had stood for over a year without consensus, or even discussion. Thank you.Mk5384 (talk) 03:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't follow how you can suggest I haven't been discussing these removals since I was the one who started the thread on the talk page on this very subject! Its a common call of users in a dispute to claim that the other side "isn't discussing" and in this case, that is clearly untrue. IN any event, we've started a vote (see below) and I have readded the mateiral for all to see while this vote is conducted. -OberRanks (talk) 12:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

On the talk page, Father Goose has provided sixty-two (62) different sources referring to General Pershing as "Nigger Jack". It has been there for over a year; it is well sourced-you have no right to remove something because you don't like it. Thank you.Mk5384 (talk) 04:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The material is already cited in the text. The issue here is not its removal - the issue is whether such an obvious racial slur should be displayed in the main infobox. Noone is saying we should censor the article and remove references to Pershing being called by this name - we are saying there is absolutely no need to have either nickname in the infobox. -OberRanks (talk) 12:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

As you can see, the article now contains inline citations, next to the nicknames in the infobox. There is no longer any grounds for their removal. Thank you.Mk5384 (talk) 06:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, we are not removing the material - it is mentioned in the body of the article where it belongs. We are stating to keep it out of the infobox as there is no need for it there. -OberRanks (talk) 12:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The grounds is WP:DISPUTE and WP:COMMONSENSE. Several users have voiced concern that the addition of a nickname which is clearly a racial slur, cited or not, would draw fire to the article and, by an un-informed reader, would be seen as shocking and vandalism (even if it were not). This mateirla is also already spoken of the text. This is also highly controversial and was removed until all parties agree on a course - re-adding it againt consensus is clearly uncalled for. Furthermore, posting messages to my talk page, instead of voicing them on the article talk page for all users to see, is also inappropriate as we should have all comments about the article in one single place. It also appears we have a single user (Mk5384) insisting that this material be added in to the infobox and, by my count, five or six comments against (including anon ips). The proper course is to keep it out for now until we can reach a consensus. And , like I've been saying, ALL of this material should be mentioned in the text of the article already so it is not as if we are removing the material completely. -OberRanks (talk) 11:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

NPOV, NOR, and the "N" word (Part II)

Racial epithets are a difficult issue in the study of United States social history especially in the period between the end of Reconstruction and World War I. Social norms have changed so much that it is almost impossible to set certain matters in context.

Here is one example of how a biographer handled the dilemma: very early in Irving Berlin's career (1904) he got a job as a singing waiter in lower Manhattan.

Located at 12 Pell Street, in the heart of Chinatown, the establishment was officially known as The Pelham Café, though everyone called it by the proprietor's nickname, "Nigger Mike's." (Like "coon," the epithet "nigger" was widely used and not considered shockingly offensive, but make no mistake, it still carried a racist sting.) Nigger Mike was no blacker than Izzy Baline; he was a Russian Jew with an olive complexion."(p. 21)

The biography continues that way on at least fourteen separate pages and even mentions Irving Berlin paying his respects at "Nigger Mike's" funeral. As difficult as it is today to imagine such a nickname as anything other than extreme derision, that actually was socially acceptable to address a white man that way if he preferred it. In detailed biographies of Irving Berlin that moniker is inescapable: the singing waiter job was Berlin's first break in the music business and both the proprietor and his restaurant were universally known by the N word: Google Books returns 263 hits for "Irving Berlin nigger Mike".

Google books also returns 108 hits for "John Pershing 'Nigger Jack'. Interesting discussions are at Enviropop: studies in environmental rhetoric and popular culture, The savage wars of peace: small wars and the rise of American power, and War Letters: Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars. So it's verifiable and nontrivial, but it's also the kind of nickname that has to be explained in context. Otherwise it will elicit heated reactions and be mistaken for vandalism. Questions to evaluate include:

1. Is this important enough to deserve mention in Pershing's Misplaced Pages biography? (Despite more than twice as many Google Books hits, Irving Berlin's biography does not mention the corresponding moniker).
2. If editors do include the nickname here, what is the proper context? The challenge is to explain the social background adequately without expanding this subtopic beyond its due weight.

The thing to really be on guard against is a juvenile impulse to use the term without context for its shock value, just because it's sourceable. Durova 21:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Copied from Admin Noticeboard (Part III)

A situation is developing on the John Pershing article where a handful of anon ips and one registered user are attempting to place in the biography info box at the start of the article that Pershing was called "Nigger Jack" as his nickname. Pershing was in fact called this name, but it was an insult hurled at him by opponents and some West Point cadets who disliked him. It was never in any a nickname Pershing called himself and by World War I if someone called him that it was a court martial offense. By that point, the majority fo the media and the public were calling him "Black Jack" which is far more commonly accepted as a nickname for Pershing. I believe the motives behind putting the word "nigger" in the info box are for shock value (this info is also already spoken of in the text). It would also be the same as if some angry soldier called Obama by this word, so we put "nigger" in his biography box as a nickname. Clearly inappropriate and downgrading to the article. Its been added twice so far, so this does bear watching and possible admin intervention if it continues. -OberRanks (talk) 12:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored, and if the nickname is true and appropriately sourced, it should be included.--Crossmr (talk) 12:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

His common nickname was and is "Black Jack" Pershing. If the history behind that common name was that he was once called "Nigger Jack" (something i never heard before despite having developed an interest in Pershing when i lived in Mindanao) then that should be mentioned in the text, but not in the info box (since, again, it isn't the common nickname nor the one typically used by historians/quality press today or the military history writers and press at the time).Bali ultimate (talk) 12:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Putting it in the info box creates undue weight, unless there is sourcing of sufficient prominence (not just verifiability) saying that the usage was widespread enough to justify that placement. Otherwise, put it in the text as Bali Ultimate says. For a major historical figure like Pershing, sufficient prominence would mean multiple high-quality sources devoting significant space to discussing the nickname and its usage. An uncomplimentary nickname (e.g. "Tricky Dick" Nixon) can, though, become become quite prominent, maybe enough to warrant infobox placement in some cases. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 16:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The source is reliable and it verifies the text. John Pershing wasn't the only white man who had that sort of nickname, and in another documented pre-WWI instance a white man in New York City preferred the nickname for himself. Social norms have changed enormously since that era. This does not need administrative attention; undue weight is a content issue that can be worked out on the article talk page. The epithet was not vandalism. Durova 16:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The comparison to President Obama is ludicrous. If one angry soldier called the president a name, it would be the same as a General who was widely referred to as that? You can't be serious about that. His common nickname was "Nigger Jack". During World War I, the press began to refer to him as "Black Jack", as a euphesim for his real nickname. It was a detestable epithet, but that dosen't make it untrue. The name "Nigger Jack" has been listed in that box for quite some time, without incident. If someone wishes to remove it, then the burden of proof should fall upon that editor to provide a reliable source that this nickname was rarely used.Mk5384 (talk) 07:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
The article itself states that the press "changed" his nickname during World War I. General Pershing was given that nickname in 1897. The U.S. entered WWI in 1918. Pershing, at this time, was already a decorated general, nearing the end of his military career. He had the nickname for 21 years before even being called "Black Jack."Mk5384 (talk) 07:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, its amazing how a nickname that has minor relevance to a persons notability can cause such heated desire. The fact that it has sat in that box for quite some time does not make it correct, that is all this is about isn't it? The desire to have this nickname uneplained in the infobox..I don't support this nigger nickname in the infobox at all, it is fine in the body of the text where it can be explained, it may of been used in some quarters in history in a derogatory manner but he is not known by that name now,the nickname is not part of his notability at all. Off2riorob (talk) 12:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I feel it necessary to also mention this edit in which User:Mk5384 stated I was violating consensus by removing the nicknames and that our discussion is "nonsense". I'll count 6 editors opposed to this material in the infobox, F-Goose appears to be on the fence but respecting what we are saying, and Mk5384 readding this material, over and over again, insisting it be in the infobox. I would submit it is not I who is going against consensus here. -OberRanks (talk) 12:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I did indeed state that, and I stand by it. Instead of assuming good faith in the first place, you asserted that it was put in for shock value. Instead of attempting to work it out on the talk page, you unilaterally made the decision to remove the material. Then, when you didn't get your way, you took the ridiculous step of asking for administrative intervention. You have stated that Father Goose is "on the fence", when he was the one who put the name back in the article after you removed it. You have been provided with no fewer than 62 sources referring to General Pershing by that name. The article now has clear inline citations next to the nicknames to support their inclusion. So as I have said, this seems to boil down to a case of "I don't like it".Mk5384 (talk) 14:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read the full argument. No-one is saying remove the material from the article, we are saying it should not be in the highly visible infobox. We've also started a vote down below in order to get consensus and I have actually re-added the material until the vote is concluded. I suggest you vote as well, so you can get your opinion in the count. -OberRanks (talk) 14:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

First of all, Misplaced Pages is not a popularity contest. The material is properly sourced; that's what matters. You have continued to be misleading here. I have not put anything on your talk page that I haven't put here on this talk page. Going to your talk page and addressing you personally was a courtesy. You have some nerve to try to turn it into an insult. Instead of posting the entire edit, you were again, misleading when you said that I referred to this discussion as "nonsense". As I have been participating in this conversation all along, I obviously don't think of it as nonsense. What I referred to as nonsense was you feeling justified in removing something with 62 different sources just because it offended you. As I have said, this is not rule by majority opinion. The material is properly sourced and that is what matters. You had no problem with "Black Jack" being in the infobox; only with "Nigger Jack". As I have said, it comes down to "I don't like it". Misplaced Pages is not censored!!!Mk5384 (talk) 14:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Its got nothing to do with not liking it or not censored or that wikipedia is not a popularity content, none of which present any reason as to what value this nickname that is not part of any reason towards his notability just has got to be in the infobox. It is clearly in the body of the article where it is explained and commented on, so that is totally OK. Off2riorob (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

It is clearly in the infobox, where it is cited, and where it has been, so that is totally OK.Mk5384 (talk) 15:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Just because you like it there or because it has been there for a while does not mean that it has to stay there or that is is correct for it to be there. Off2riorob (talk) 15:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Mk5384, both nicknames are up for removal and there is now a very straight forward vote going on as to determine keeping or deleting either one. You also appear to be overlooking the fact that, to avoid an edit war and bad feelings, I voluntarily reverted myself and restored this material into the article . We are, at this point, following WP:DISPUTE to the letter by having a consensus vote after a discussion from both sides. No-one is accusing you of anything, saying you did anything wrong, and if you got that impression then I'm sorry. The best thing to do is to take a step back, cool off a bit, and let the vote proceed. We can then keep or remove the material based on the outcome. -OberRanks (talk) 15:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, I ask you if you are even reading these policies. WP:DISPUTE- "A survey can not generate consensus." "If you feel that others are ignoring consensus, a survey can not force them to obey what you feel is consensus". For the love of God, read these policies that you are citing.Mk5384 (talk) 15:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I

Sounds good to me. -OberRanks (talk) 15:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Thought it may be splitting hairs, how should one attempt to ascertain consensus? Is not a poll at least a useful tool in starting to move to an end result? Hopefully all parties can continue to discuss, think, and move forward and not just toss around WP links. — MrDolomite • Talk 16:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Although I've participated in this poll I do have misgivings about it. Polls and votes aren't the best way of establishing consensus because they tend to shape discussion along certain narrow lines and divide people. A content RfC or a request for mediation would have been better. Durova 21:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

My thought was that for a specific, narrow issue such as this, a poll would be a better tool than a usually more complex and lengthy RfC or mediation process. — MrDolomite • Talk 07:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The vote is split right down the middle, so it is a good indication that this is a deeply divided issue. My main concern for having the vote was to centralize the discussion since the threads were going off in several directions with some of it spilling over onto user talk pages accompanied by some heated remarks. At least with the votes, we know exactly where all parties stand. -OberRanks (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well yes, yet drawing lines in the sand tends to get in the way of consensus. Misplaced Pages is not a battlefield. Discussion of hot button terminology always runs the risk of degenerating into battleground mentality. On the whole, the editors here are doing remarkably well at remaining collegial. Yet it's a little bit worrisome to see at least one editor reduce the infobox issue to censorship. Censorship certainly isn't what I advocate. It would be better to get a more nuanced discussion going, rather than setting up a poll that forces people to take sides. Durova 03:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution on addition of nicknames to the infobox section (Vote)

To get clear consensus on this issue, I am starting this vote section. The question is: "Should the "Nigger Jack" nickname be included in the biography infobox at the start of the article?"

• Oppose: There is no need to have a racial slur in the highly visible info box when this material is already cited in the text of the article. I would also say keep out all nicknames from the infobox to avoid favoritism. -OberRanks (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose: Not part of his notability, keep both out of the infobox. Off2riorob (talk) 12:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support If its a notable nick name (here I do have some doubts, the Nigger appliation was not how he was widely known) then yes it should be in the lead. Other notable officers have thier famous nick names in the lead, just becasue this is racist does not detract from the fact he was widely known as 'Black jack'.Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support My reasons are all over this talk page. No need to repeat them here.Mk5384 (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. No objection to having it within the article text, but this nickname has to be contextualized and infoboxes can't do that. Durova 16:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. I appreciate Father Goose's compromise suggestion, but on balance it seems to me that the infobox reference shocks out of proportion to its informativeness. --Arxiloxos (talk) 18:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support The nickname is well-documented in multiple reliable sources. WP:NOTCENSORED. Postoak (talk) 21:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment No proposal to censor. It is in the body.- Sinneed 13:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I think it belongs in the infobox. I'm pretty certain we would not be having this debate if the name were not felt to be offensive -- but offense alone is an inappropriate reason to make editorial decisions, as articulated by WP:NOTCENSORED. Nor do I feel it should be omitted on the basis that it was derogatory -- by some accounts, "Black Jack" was also derogatory ().
  We run the risk of rewriting history here by trying to sanitize it. It's true that we're not making the mistake of omitting the name from the article altogether, but if we are to have "Black Jack" in the infobox -- and we should, definitely -- "Nigger Jack" should go with it, in its current form: cited, with the explanation that "Black Jack" is the later, softened form of the original nickname.--Father Goose (talk) 04:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: With a dead split down the middle, it is rapidly looking like this information will indeed by displayed since there is no clear consensus to remove it and it is now cited. It will probably be removed again, at some point, but with this discussion there will be a record that the matter was discussed. -OberRanks (talk) 04:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: If it were a simple WP:NOTCENSORED question my opinion would be different. The issue here is that a word has undergone radical changes in social use, which modern readers need context to understand. Durova 06:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: No proposal to censor. It is in the body.- Sinneed 13:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: The main issue is the shock value of having the word "n*gger" in the main infobox when this matter is already discussed in the body of text. The natural instinct of any uninformed reader, unfamiliar with the topic would be to think it is a vandalism entry and remove it. In fact, that's exactly what happened which started this dispute. So, if its already in the body of text, its already explained, why should we wish to have it in such plain site where it will draw fire? On the flip side, I did like FG's cituations for it and, if it does stay, the way FG did it is the way it should be. -OberRanks (talk) 14:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - " trying to sanitize it" - there is no proposal to sanitize. Please focus on the edit rather than your perception of the motivations of the editors. If your voting to remove it from the infobox would be sanitizing, I understand... but it is not proposed.- Sinneed 03:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose use in infobox, but support cited use in text of article, as it was the origin of the more-well-known nickname. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose This is not a censorship issue, as it's explained in the article. Putting in the infobox makes too big a thing out of it. It's undue weight. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support But only if both nicknames are in the infobox, and they are cited, and there is supporting text in the article about the names, and if said supporting text is not in the lead section. Yes, that is quite a few qualifications, but all of which support the previously mentioned concept of explaining without undue shock value and weight due to the change of terminology over time. — MrDolomite • Talk 07:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: He was only "commonly" known as "Black Jack", and you don't need a lengthy explanation in the infobox, as it's already explained in the article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Cover it in the body. - Sinneed 13:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - at talk:Nigger Jack, an editor noted that textbooks had started using "Black Jack" instead of "Nigger Jack". It may be that this is regional, or otherwise "common" but not common to all editors. If there is reason to believe this is the case... that this usage is indeed common... just not universal... I would have to reconsider my Oppose. Anyone have anything to indicate this besides different memories of a couple of editors?- Sinneed 15:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support per MrDolomite. If the nickname was "Grumpy" instead of the N word, I don't think there'd be any question, it would be in the infobox. Misplaced Pages readers ought to consider such nicknames according to the times, not by 2010 standards.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • That would be true, if it were a common nickname. Babe Ruth was called "N*gger Lips" by his less restrained classmates at the reform school. That's not in his infobox, though. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I would indeed oppose using "Grumpy" if it were not a common nickname. I won't ever have an article, but I have been called "flash"(a parody of my poor ping pong game style), "cabbage head", "moon head", "round head", "brussel sprout" (head like a small cabbage), "charlie brown", "professor", "Sinneed" and "That F***ing Sinneed"... and none would belong, unless they were not just recorded, but how I was known. It *might* merit a mention, as here, in the article, for some reason.- Sinneed 14:54, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Why deliberately use an offensive term when Black Jack suffices?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. If it needs explanation, then it should be covered in the text, where context can be provided. Sodam Yat (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Question- Why is there a need for there to be a nickname anyway? Would it be more agreeable if the section of the infobox was removed altogether, and both names were included, and explained, in the body of the article? Sodam Yat (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support It's how he was known for a considerable period, & ultimately the basis for the bowlderized "Black Jack". For that alone, it deserves inclusion. (BTW, that it was court martial offence in 1918 scarcely pertains; by 1918, Pershing was pretty damn senior, so anything he disliked being called {Shirley, for instance ;p} could buy a court martial for insubordination.) And for the uninformed, who don't know he ever was called "Nigger Jack" (& why), it's a good way to get their attention. I'd also add, it's a point in his favor in re any black readers: he commanded black troops & IIRC considered the Buffalo Soldiers some of the best he'd ever led, & was smeared by association; that is, for not being the same kind of racist bigot as the rest. I suggest that's a good character reference, even if the term offends today. TREKphiler 12:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: You make a fair point, and one that occurred to me as well--but I am still concerned that this point cannot be made clearly by the mere inclusion of the name in the infobox, without explanatory text. The concern is not about offending, it's about offending without conveying the intended meaning. Nicknames are included in the infoboxes of many other military biographies, but I do wonder if it might not be better to just leave the nicknames in text here. In any event, I would like to acknowledge, appreciatively, the good faith of the editors who have joined this discussion on both sides.--Arxiloxos (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Possible solution

With the matter divided down the middle (6 support votes, 7 oppose votes, and 1 "Yes" vote), there is obviously not an overwhelming consensus to either keep or retain the nicknames section. I think a compromise would be to have the nickname section contain only the links to the references for both names. The reference notes can be slightly altered to display the nickname and then the relevant source information. In this manner, it is still in the infobox that Pershing had nicknames, but the shock value aspect is removed. -OberRanks (talk) 14:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• I would prefer to have the to-my-reading-not-common nickname in the infobox, rather than hide the common name because the uncommon one offends. I truly, TRULY don't care who we offend: taking this information out because people will be offended if it is left in is a completely unconvincing argument to me.
• I don't see the division of support that you present it. I see:

For listing in infobox: It was a nickname, and it is reliably recorded in history, therefore we should list it, no matter how few people identify him that way.

Against listing in infobox: It was not the name he was commonly known as.

The rub for me is the "no matter how few people identify him that way" - I think this bit is wp:OR on my part at least. I see nothing that addresses it to my satisfaction... he may be much better known under "Nigger Jack" than I personally believe... in which case we should certainly have it in the infobox.- Sinneed 15:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Note

One of the chief proponents of keeping it in the infobox has quit Misplaced Pages over it, making a false claim of censorship: ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This is wp:POV... I assume good faith and accept that the claim is not false... I simply don't agree with it. I do not think this belongs here, either, under wp:talk page guidelines.- Sinneed 15:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

In addition, the ANI post had sexual and racial remarks in it; I have formally requested this user be blocked from further editing . -OberRanks (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This only speaks to the editor's manner, and has nothing to do with the article. I think it does not belong here, under wp:talk page guidelines.- Sinneed 15:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

It is a very important point that one of the MAJOR contributors to the debate has now declared that they are retired from Misplaced Pages and this is something that all involved should be aware of. I do admit, perhaps we should not dwell on what it was the user said or did on the ANI, but that too was quite detestable and was directed at several editors involved with the above consensus vote. Again, something that people should be aware of. -OberRanks (talk) 16:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

And it prejudices, and has nothing to do with the article whatsoever, and does not belong here *at all*. You should redact it.- Sinneed 17:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

New compromise suggestion

Would it be feasible to footnote the context at the infobox? See Walter_Raleigh#cite_note-0 and Jean_Desbouvrie#cite_note-0 for examples of the basic idea. Footnotes can contain explanations in addition to source links. Durova 17:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This article already goes a step further and footnotes the nickname "Black Jack" within the infobox. But footnoting it in the lead and/or the infobox seems reasonable, other than the fact someone is liable to say that footnotes aren't supposed to be in the lead or the infobox. However, since this would be a compromise solution, WP:IAR might figure into it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the suggestion wasn't sufficiently clear. There are two types of footnotes. Source-only notes predominate at Misplaced Pages and that's what this currently have. Another type of footnote is explanatory. We aren't limited to linking within a footnote; footnotes can also summarize the context. Durova 17:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Ideally, link it to the same footnote as the part in the article that already explains it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The idea is to construct a footnote that provides context. The main text only needs to link to a source, which means the footnotes should be different. Jean Desbouvrie uses two different notes to the same source: one for straightforward citation, another where explanation is needed.

^ See The Zoologist below: an 1889 report stated that Desbouvrie began keeping swallows when he was eleven and had raised them for over 30 years. That places his birthdate at or somewhat before 1847.

The Walter Raleigh explanatory footnote comes a little closer in subject matter. Durova 17:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

^ Many alternate spellings of his surname exist, including Rawley, Ralegh, Ralagh and Rawleigh. "Raleigh" appears most commonly today, though he, himself, used that spelling only once, as far as is known. His most consistent preference was for "Ralegh". His full name is correctly pronounced /ˈwɔːltə ˈrɔːli/, though, in practice, /ˈræli/ "rally" or even /ˈrɑːli/ "rahly" are the usual modern pronunciations in England.

That's in Raleigh's lead, not infobox, if that matters. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:43, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The suggestion is to adapt this approach for the infobox. Durova 17:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Why the infobox, as opposed to the lead? (Or maybe both?) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

No one seriously suggests that this is notable enough for the lead. Durova 17:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't even mention the nickname in the lead, which is interesting, given the broad usage of "Black Jack". Whatever. Footnoting it in the infobox should be good. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Footnoting the infobox, without displaying the actual word, is an excellent suggestion and I think that's the way we should go. -OberRanks (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

OberRanks obviously ignored the olive branch that I offered below. I have reconsidered retirement, and can assure you that I will put both names back the instant protection is removed. Perhaps this should just proceed to mediation, because I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not backing down.Mk5384 (talk) 13:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I have reported Mk5384 to WP:ANI, as he promises to continue edit-warring as soon as the page protection expires. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah...I didn't even realize Mk5384 had "returned" when making that post. I was responding to the conversion between Bugs and the others up above. -OberRanks (talk) 14:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case, OberRanks, I apologise for not AGF'ing, and jumping the gun. Perhaps you'd like to give your opinion of what I've said.Mk5384 (talk) 14:31, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Mk5384

I read the posts on the ANI, and responded to them there, and will make another attempt here. First things first; in the heat of my frustration, I made several posts that were completely out of line, and for those, I apologise sincerely. Seeing that OberRanks took my completely sarcastic comment completely seriously, I realized that perhaps he sincerly thought that I was making these edits because I am a racist. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I should have erred on the side of caution, and gone further to make that clear. Baseball Bugs said that my 7th edit was to "try to slip 'Nigger Jack' back in". I'll assume good faith, but I'd like to rebut that. I have been interested in Misplaced Pages long before I began participating. I never thought of editing before I realized that someone had listed the wrong year of birth for the beautiful Pilar Montenegro. I felt compelled to correct it, and one thing lead to another. For numerous reasons, I have always been interested in World War I, which has translated into an interest in General Pershing. I was interested in the article long before I began editing. When I noticed that someone had removed the name "Nigger Jack", I put it back. That's all. If the fact that I did that as my 7th edit translates into suspicions of racism or sockpuppetry, I don't know what to say. Let me make another attempt at this, peacefully. I think that we all agree that the nickname of "Nigger Jack" is properly sourced. The problem seems to be, "Why does it have to be in the infobox?". Here's why, IMHO. It was in there, long before I put it back, in January. Type in "Nigger Jack", and you get the John Pershing article. I think that's pretty darn significant, as far as showing just how widely he was known as that. Type in "Old Blue Eyes", and you get the Frank Sinatra article. There, in the infobox, for Mr. Sinatra, are his nicknames, just like the John Pershing article. I think that in addition to the 62 sources that Father Goose provided, the fact that "Nigger Jack" redirects to John Pershing goes a long way towards showing just how widespread the name was. I doubt anyone would have a problem with this if the word in question wasn't so horrible. ( And it is horrible.) But, as I have said, and as we all know, Misplaced Pages is not censored. To include only the name "Black Jack", is IMHO, an attempt to whitewash some very nasty history. To keep both names out, because one of them is a detestable epithet, is IMHO, censorship. So, in conclusion, the infobox should remain as it was, with both nicknames listed. As per Durova's good faith compromise suggestion of a footnote, I respectfully add that footnote probably would not have been suggested if it weren't for the offensive name, and therefore, should not be used.Mk5384 (talk) 10:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
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