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::Fryderyk Chopin wasn't a "'''''Polish-born''''' composer." He was a '''''Polish''''' composer of expatriate-French paternity. ] (]) 03:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
::Fryderyk Chopin wasn't a "'''''Polish-born''''' composer." He was a '''''Polish''''' composer of expatriate-French paternity. ] (]) 03:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Calm down, Nihil, we all understand how important this is to you. Just open your mind for a moment and see how ridiculous your arguments are becoming. You bring up ], nope, poor comparison. How about ]? ] father born in ], his mother half ], half ]. Didn't master the Polish language either. But he's now "Polish", actually more so because no one really cares about him, and wants to argue the point. Do you? Would calling Matejko a Czech-Polish painter be true or would it upset ]? ] (]) 04:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Calm down, Nihil, we all understand how important this is to you. Just open your mind for a moment and see how ridiculous your arguments are becoming. You bring up ], nope, poor comparison. How about ]? ] father born in ], his mother half ], half ]. Didn't master the Polish language either. But he's now "Polish", actually more so because no one really cares about him, and wants to argue the point. Do you? Would calling Matejko a Czech-Polish painter be true or would it upset ]? ] (]) 04:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::If your Matejko analogy is meant as a guide in the Chopin instance, then you would seem to have demonstrated the absurdity of your own argument.
:::::Your gratuitous advice to "calm down" shows that your are as great a boor as you are a bore. ] (]) 06:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
=="Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent"==
=="Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent"==
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I wonder if any of you is aware of the fact, that a game was released, in wich Chopin is a main character. It was released on Xbox360 and Playstation 3. The game's title is Eternal Sonata.
Maybe someone, with better English skills could mention this in the article.
They have heard of it, but to the genteel Wikipedians, video games will never be as culturally advanced as other entertainment mediums. Shikyo3 (talk) 03:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Video games can be sophisticated. Consider this eloquent monologue by a character in Half-Life 2: Episode Two, and this composition in the video game Age of Empires III.
Read & edited Chopin's article & changed *Op.* to *op.* As I was working, a note arrived at my talk page, which I am pasting below together with my answer, in case anyone else questions my revision:
Hi, Frania. I've noticed this edit. Can you tell me what your rationale for decapitalising "Op." is? It is certainly usually capitalised in English language references. If there's some WP convention about it, can you point me to it? Cheers.
My answer:
I know that I must be the only person in the whole of en:wikipedia with this, so I looked it up before decapitalising *Opus* & *Op.* in order to have an immediate answer to the question I was sure would be coming! After finishing reading/editing the article, I was going to leave a note on Chopin's discussion page, but you beat me to it. I still will as I am not finished with this long article.
A photograph. I quote from the picture's caption in Jeremy Siepmann's biography of Chopin: "The only known photograph of Frédéric Chopin, often incorrectly described as a daguerreotype." --RobertG ♬ talk15:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
In all the books & articles where this portrait is. What I would like to know: since this was always (as far as I know) described as a daguerreotype, from where did Siepmann get that it is not? Frania W. (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
All books & articles?! Google "chopin daguerreotype" and "chopin photograph": not a precise test, I know, but 5000 results versus 3.4 million is interesting. Don't know; not the sort of thing you write unless you think you know. --RobertG ♬ talk17:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
RobertG: Encountered an *edit conflict* with you. Here is what I was trying to post:
P.S. And if it is not a daguerreotype, then Siepmann should tell us was process was used because, for a picture done in 1849, we cannot simplify the description to the word *photograph*. In the mid 19th century, there was an evolution in this new art & the new process for each step of the way had a name. Frania W. (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
No he should not - his book is a biography of Chopin, not a history of photography. "Photograph" is simply a general term: we describe images of real things, be they Polaroids, digital image files, scanned images, copied images, projected transparencies (and even perhaps daguerreotypes), all as photographs without any problems. Daguerreotype is a specific name for a specific process. If you have a reference that tells us the specific process that made this image then please name it, otherwise it's surely just a photograph. --RobertG ♬ talk21:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Have you checked the validation of the photo chopin22.jpg? Some time ago a similar picture, named Chopin2.jpg was published in the Misplaced Pages Chopin article, and immediately retracted. The photo was a mirror version of the present one, and named chopin2.jpg. I downloaded it before it was retracted, to see how long it would take a hoax to be removed. The file was dated may 2007. The photo in the file was dated 1839 in its caption, the present 1847, somebody must have found out that photograhy, was only invented in late 1839 (cf the wikipedia article on photography). The stains 'witnessing' the age of the photo were different. To me the stains don't look authentic, neither on the previous nor the present one. If the validation hasn't been checked it demonstrates a serious problem with Misplaced Pages. Erik Axel.
Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is arguably A-class, and clearly well on its way to FA consideration. I have a few suggestions -- I put them in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano16:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Progone?
In the quotation from Laurencin, what does the word progone mean? I can’t find a definition anywhere on the web. MJ (t • c) 14:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I suspect that is likely a corruption of the word "paragon," though the source does in fact say "progone." Anyone have access to Oxford Unabridged? We should perhaps remove "progone" and replace it with "paragon" in brackets. It would read something like: "Chopin is the musical of all until now." Granted, that looks odd; maybe we should just replace the quote with a better one? Snagglepuss (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
A "progone" is the opposite of an "epigone"—the latter being "an undistinguished imitator or follower of an important writer, painter, etc." The word "progone" comes from the Greekprogonos, meaning "born before."
Thanks for the definition. I agree with the statement then, FWIW. A link to Wiktionary would be good (except that it’s not defined there yet either). MJ (t • c) 05:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
His students/pupils
This has been mentioned previously, but is there an accurate list anywhere of his students? Some people claimed to have studied under him (such as Debussy's teacher, Marie Mauté de Fleurville), but there's no evidence. Others definitely did, although in most cases their careers came to nothing. That aside, it would be good to have an accurate, referenced, list, which could also make some reference to his student genealogy (notable grand-pupils etc). Maybe a separate article would be the appropriate place. I've just come across another name I'd never heard before - Kazimierz Wernik (1828-1859), who, according to Grove V, studied with Chopin for 2 years 1846-1848. He'd be on the list. If there's no comprehensive list already in existence, I'm prepared to create one. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Chopin's father: Frenchman, born in France, emigrated to Poland.
Chopin: Polish, born in Poland, emigrated to France.
Even if Chopin took French citizenship, he cannot be classified with French people of Polish descent. He could not descend from anything Polish: he WAS Polish.
If Chopin acquired French citizenship, then he should be in a category named Polish people who acquired French citizenship, in which you could put Mme Curie, for instance.
If Chopin had had any children born in France, then his children would be *French people of Polish descent*.
Even more: Chopin felt himself, during his exile's journey to France, a Pole. After the Imperial Russian Army routed some Polish November insurgents, he wrote: "May the French suffer the direst torments for not having come to our aid." (in the Polish, "Niech najsroższe męczarnie dręczą Francuzów, co nam na pomoc nie przyszli."). Mathiasrex (talk) 19:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I am perplexed at the tone of the article and of the discussion with respect to Chopin's nationality (as well as his father's, being presented as a "French-expatriate", rather than a French citizen expatriated to Poland, or similar). They appear emotional rather than objective. The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is not well supported by the quotes provided and conveys a sense of reluctance in taking French papers which is not supported by fact. Furthermore, the article does not accurately capture French law with respect to French citizenship, which was Chopin's by birth right (even though he only officialized it much later). There seems to be a tendency to want to secure Chopin as a Pole. In practice, Chopin was the result of a cultural mix, spoke both languages from childhood, held both citizenships and spent time in both countries (both as a youth in Poland and as an adult in France, to oversimplify). There is no doubt that he had very significant ties (familial, practical and emotional) to both countries - and that he both benefited and occasionally suffered from being a dual-national. He did not renounce his Polish citizenship and the Polish side of his being for officializing his French citizenship, but that does not in any manner support the tone of the article suggesting some sort of constraint and compromize... 168.103.87.121 (talk) 00:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Ergos, Colorado USA
Because I am pretty sure that there would be bruised feelings on the Polish side of the border, I have stayed away from Chopin's nationality, or should I say "nationalities", on both fr:wiki & here; and also because I believe that my arguments would be considered OR. According to the Code Napoléon, his father being French, Chopin was born a French citizen (jus sanguinis). Moreover, his mother became French at the time of her marriage to a French citizen. The passport issued to Chopin in July 1837 (footnote n° 13 in article) states de parents français (= of French parents). Consequently, this "born of French parents" would have made Chopin a dual Polish/French national at birth, ensuing that he never would have had to obtain French nationality. In all the reading I have done, I have never seen anywhere, except on en:wiki, that Chopin "became a French citizen". Some writers have Chopin a dual national, while, ignoring the Code Napoléon on nationality, encyclopedias, dictionaries etc. have him as a Pole whose father was French.
The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is wrong. If Chopin did in fact become a French citizen, where is copy of the document, the one showing that Chopin took French nationality? As a Pole, Chopin could have traveled out of France with a Polish(Russian) passport but, why should he go to the Russian Embassy in Paris (which he could never have brought himself to do!) & obtain a passport issued by the Russians when he could get one from the French government (Au nom du roi) as a French citizen ? - which is exactly what he did.
Footnote 14 in lead of article directs us to the Chopin article in the much respected & often used as reference Encyclopædia Britannica, which begins as follows: "Polish-French composer and pianist of the Romantic period..."
Although above that it calls him just a "Polish" composer, and Larousse seems to regard him simply as Polish. We mustn't get mixed up between citizenship and nationality here - I haven't seen any evidence that he felt himself to be French.--Kotniski (talk) 16:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Please, Kotniski, give the difference between "citizenship" and "nationality" and explain that difference in the case of Chopin father & son.
Juridically speaking, whether Chopin felt himself to be French or not has nothing to do with the fact that, according to the Code Napoléon (1804), he was French because born of a French father. --Frania W. (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Well that's the difference. Citizenship is a legal matter, while nationality is something much fuzzier. I'll believe you about the Code Napoleon (though it's possible that Chopin's father may have ceased to be a French citizen at some point); I don't know what the laws on citizenship of the Duchy of Warsaw or Congress Poland were (or even if it was possible to be a Polish citizen at that time). However Chopin's Polishness (and - to my knowledge - lack of Frenchness) is not based on laws and documents, but where he felt his background and loyalties to lie. (My children are in a similar situation, so I have some experience of this - they're both British and Polish citizens by law, due to mixed parentage, but if you asked them their nationality, I'm pretty sure they'd give just one.)--Kotniski (talk) 18:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, thank you for your reply; however, you are leaving me in the dark as to what the difference is between "citizenship" and "nationality" and as to the way the terms should be applied to Chopin father & son.
Why is it so easy to define what "citizenship" is ("a legal matter"), while you put "nationality" in the "fuzzy" department?
Can one be citizen of a country and not a national of that country?
Is not a citizen of France a French national?
Was not Chopin's father a French citizen and also a French national?
By the way, Papa Chopin never lost his French citizenship/nationality. Also, remember that Chopin's 1837 passport bears the phrase "issu de parents français", as even Chopin's mother - again because of the Code Napoléon - became French at the time of her marriage to a Frenchman.
Thank you, Dr. Loosmark. Now that I have read the article, I still cannot figure out what the argument is about here: Chopin father & son: "citizens" or "nationals": c'est du pareil au même. And whether Frédéric Chopin is a "French citizen" or a "French national", it should be added, to his biography, not removed. According to the 1804 Code Napoléon in effect at the time of his birth, Chopin had the French nationality because born of a French father (jus sanguinis), no matter where in the world he was born: "un enfant né de père français est français". That clearly covers the case of Chopin.
To Kotninski: Chopin's Polishness (and - to my knowledge - lack of Frenchness)... is not wording usually seen on someone's passport. Chopin's feelings, "Polishness or lack of Frenchness" (as you say) belong in the article itself, while his nationality or the fact that he is a Polish-French dual national belong in the lead, and should be developed at the beginning of the biography section with a footnote to the 1804 Code Napoléon with mention of the so important jus sanguinis case, that made him a Frenchman at birth.
Chopin's 1837 French passport with mention that his parents were French
However, we have no copy of the very important document we need to prove what's written in the article about Chopin becoming French:
Chopin's naturalisation document.
And yet, that is what we base our argument RE Chopin's supposed acquired French nationality/citizenship. In other words, we ignore what is in front of our eyes and use as proof of what we advance something that is invisible. Hm! Vous avez dit étrange?
I think you're still not getting the difference between nationality and citizenship. On the citizenship question, I think I'd agree that the statement about Chopin "acquiring French citizenship" may be based on an error in the source. But on the nationality question, I don't think that his using a one-year travel document issued by the French authorities (particularly if it didn't follow any conscious decision to adopt French citizenship) can be considered evidence of any kind of allegiance or feeling of belonging to France on his part.--Kotniski (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, OK, I'll put the question to you another way: Is someone born in France of French parents, a French citizen or a French national? According to the Code Napoléon, when Chopin was born he was a French*man* (a tiny one!). Was he then a French citizen or a French national?
As to (quoting you) ... can be considered evidence of any kind of allegiance or feeling of belonging to France on his part. Chopin must have felt some tie with France because that's where he chose to remain. He could have stayed in Austria, Germany, England, Italy, but he lived in France for the second half of his life. He, naturally, was close to the Poles living in Paris, this while living in the midst of the French artistic & intellectual milieu. In other words, when living in France, he did not limit his acquaintances to only people from Poland.
The one-year travel document, his 1837 passport (he had already got one in 1835), may not be evidence of any allegiance or feeling of belonging to France, but it is evidence that the French considered him to be French "issu de parents français", otherwise, the "Police Générale de France" would not have issued him a passport "Au nom du roi".
The love of Chopin for Poland did not stop him from being a Frenchman - citizen or national, whatever the difference. --Frania W. (talk) 13:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, I think we agree that the French authorities considered him to be legally French. The Russian authorities may have considered him to be legally Russian. This all speaks to citizenship (or "being a ... national" - the noun "national" means the same as citizen to me, rather confusingly). But he apparently considered himself to be Polish, which speaks to nationality (or "being a Pole"). Going back to me, I live in Poland and have many Polish friends, but that doesn't make me Polish. I'm not an English citizen (there's no such thing, only UK) but I still consider my nationality to be English.--Kotniski (talk) 13:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, maybe we are getting somewhere with your I think we agree that the French authorities considered him to be legally French. The French authorities considered Chopin to be legally French for the very reason that he was. And, aside from Chopin's feelings about his Polishness, this simple detail should not be blatantly ignored in an encyclopedia. --Frania W. (talk) 14:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
P.S. There is a difference between you & Chopin living in a country that is not the country of your birth: in the case of Chopin, he happened to live in a country (France) that was not his birthplace (your case also, if I understand correctly as far as Poland is concerned), but that was the country of birth of his father, which, because of French law, made Chopin un petit Français à sa naissance. Why is Chopin's Frenchness such a hard pill to swallow for the Poles? --Frania W. (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Don't know what you mean with the last sentence (I'm not aware of Chopin's "Frenchness" being a major topic of conversation among Poles or anyone else, except here). How do you propose to incorporate your discoveries into the article?--Kotniski (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, This last sentence of mine was inspired by what you wrote earlier: However Chopin's Polishness (and - to my knowledge - lack of Frenchness...), dixit you.
I am not surprised that Chopin's "Frenchness" is not a "major topic of conversation among Poles"; however, I see no reason why in an article on Chopin, his "Frenchness" should be downplayed or ignored; and here, I am not talking about Chopin's soul, but his legal status as a Frenchman from the time of his birth. I, for instance, do not think that he had to "become" a French citizen in order to get a French passport (as stated by Tad Szulc), but that after he arrived in France, he contacted the French authorities (probably had to go to the Préfecture de police in Paris) - as you just do not enter a country & decide to make it your permanent residence without legal authorisation -, thus establishing his French nationality because born of a French father. (Code Napoléon)
How am I going to incorporate my discoveries? First, they are no my discoveries, and the reason I have not incorporated them in the article is because they probably would be interpreted as original research and rejected. But this being a talk page, I feel free to talk about the subject, just as others have brought it up. Please note that, although this article is on my watch list, I very seldom touch it, I even once reverted a "Polish-French" because I felt that it would start an edit war.
If/When I find a reference acceptable to Misplaced Pages as a secondary source, unless the 1804 Code Napoléon can be used, I will present it, then we can discuss the subject again. In the meantime, I am not touching that part of the article, although I believe that this sentence in the third paragraph of the lead needs editing "Though an ardent Polish patriot, in France he used the French versions of his given names and in 1835, possibly to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen.". --Frania W. (talk) 15:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
What birth certificate would that be? Chopin historians are unaware of the existence of a birth certificate. All we have is a baptismal certicate, with an alleged (but generally considered erroneous) birth date recorded on it. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
We state that his father was French. But his nationality was Polish, which he retained even after adopting French citizenship. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have used reverse chronological order because that is the most effective way to allow the reader to trace the scholarly discussion back from the most current sources to the earlier ones.Wordpainter2416 (talk) 23:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
In 1835, when Chopin was twenty-five, his soon-to-be-fiancée Maria Wodzińska painted a watercolor portrait of him which Tad Szulc, in Chopin in Paris, describes as one of the two best portraits of the composer. (It graces the cover of the book.) There may be a reproduction of the portrait in the museum that was formerly the apartment that Chopin shared with his family until November 1830, in the Krasiński Palace south annex at Krakowskie Przedmieście 5 in Warsaw. The museum is very near the Holy Cross Church, where Chopin's heart is immured.
Perhaps someone could check whether the portrait is at the museum and photograph it for the "Chopin" article? (For technical reasons, the cover of Szulc's book doesn't make a good original.) Nihil novi (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Undid adjective "woman" as it is unnecessary information. Despite her unusual pseudonym it is not customary to designate the sex of a writer in such a context. Furthermore it's poor English. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
It should not take too long for "uninitiates" to figure out that George Sand was not a man, as she is mentioned in the third paragraph of the lead. Also, there are a couple of portraits of her in the article... Frania W. (talk) 00:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully my edit solved the issue to everyone's satisfaction here, at this discussion. In any case the edit objected to in no way established or refuted the sexual preferences of either Chopin ("sometimes Szopen"} or George Sand to the "uninitiates" (sic) or anyone else. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have any other source for this statement (which appears in the lead - of the three sources given for it, only the Tad Szulc book actually seems to mention it)? As mentioned above in the thread #Category:French people of Polish descent, Chopin probably had French citizenship all the time, and so didn't need to "change" his citizenship in order to obtain a French passport. Is this matter mentioned in any other sources that people know of?--Kotniski (talk) 17:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Kotniski for this appeal. I am reading a couple of books on Chopin & want to go from beginning to end to be sure I am not skipping anything on this subject, as it may be mentioned (if at all) very succinctly. What I think may have been the case with Chopin is that after his arrival in France in 1831, like anyone else entering the country for whatever reason (passing through, immigration, political asylum, etc.) he had to present himself to the French authorities, in this case, the Préfecture de Police. Faced with the fact that he was a Pole born of a French father, which made him a Frenchman (1804 Code Napoléon), he may then have had to choose between the two, because French law at the time (in the 1830s), may not have allowed that someone be a dual national. Thus, this would have been a "choice" of opting for either French or Polish citizenship, not "becoming" a French citizen. --Frania W. (talk) 18:27, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
That's possible. It would also be good to know if the concept of "Polish citizenship" existed at that time (when Congress Poland was de facto part of the Russian Empire). Maybe the choice would have been between French and Russian.--Kotniski (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Returning to the Code Napoleon (see here), I suspect that Chopin's father would have lost the "quality of Frenchman" under article 17 or 21. Hence Chopin may indeed have had to "recover that quality" under article 10 (wrt 9).--Kotniski (talk) 10:22, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Had Nicolas Chopin lost his French citizenship, then why would the French government issue his son Frédéric a passport on which is inscribed "issu de parents français"? --Frania W. (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
P.S. RE the title of this section: Became a French citizen in 1835: while we are debating whether Chopin did become a French citizen in 1835 or did not have to, the title of this section makes it appear as if Chopin did; so, I am adding a question mark. --Frania W. (talk) 14:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Aside from the Code Napoléon & an article by a French (modern) university legal expert, I am reading three books - one a French translation of the History of Poland published in 1971 by the "Éditions scientifiques de Pologne in Warsaw, P.Z.G.K. Poznań", another by a French author on the life of Chopin, the third one being the translation in English of his correspondence, where I fell upon a very interesting letter from his father dated 7 September 1834:
As it seems you will be remaining abroad for some time to come, I must tell you, my boy, that there should have been a notice in the French Official Gazette of 11 June to the effect that every Pole is required to obtain an extension of his passport. As you left before the troubles began and took no part in them, I do wish you would make inquiries about this at the embassy. I confess I should not like to see you finding yourself through carelessness numbered among the émigrés. Do not fail to do this and let me know what happens - it is easy for you to do this since you are well known.
My feeling is that Nicolas Chopin may not have realised at the time that, because of his own French nationality, his son was French, then maybe he knew. On the other hand, Frédéric living in Paris was mingling with the "high society" of France where artists such as him met people in high offices, government members, (he performed at the court of Louis-Philippe on several occasions). At one time, he must have made the acquaintance of those who could advise him on his legal status in France; he, then, would have been informed that he was French, the proof being that he got a French passport with the mention "issu de parents français". As to the "embassy" mentioned by Nicolas Chopin, it was not, unfortunately, the Polish embassy (non-existing), but the Russian embassy in Paris, the last place Chopin would have mis les pieds ! (Before the end of 1834, Chopin himself may not have known that, because of the Code Napoléon, he had been a French citizen/national since birth.) --Frania W. (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that seems quite likely (though we can't include our own speculation in the article - let us know if you find anything else on the subject in the course of your reading). Meanwhile I think it's time to remove or at least play down the "change of citizenship" statement in the article - since there's effectively only one source for it, out of all the many available sources on Chopin's life, I think it's reasonable to regard that source as unreliable in this matter.--Kotniski (talk) 08:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, I agree with your removal of that one source. As you can imagine, I am combing books in order to get that piece of information, lacking (?), but that seems so obvious to me because of the Code Napoléon & Chopin's French passport. Is not the information right in front of our eyes in the very existence of that 1837 French passport with the sentence "issu de parents français"? A passport is an official document, not something given out of complaisance. However, we need incontestable proof. In the meantime, I am not touching the article. --Frania W. (talk) 14:45, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Chopin an illegitimate child?
I've just read the following text "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time." here . Does anybody know any more about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varsovian (talk • contribs) 10:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
No, and that's not the only thing I'd question:
Most sources agree he was born on February 22, 1810, yet some claim his family could be found celebrating his birth on March 1.
That is the opposite of the truth. Most sources agree he was born on 1 March, the date his family celebrated his birthday. His baptismal certificate, written a considerable time after his birth, says 22 February, but this is widely considered to be an error.
At the time of his death only Jane Stirling, his Scottish benefactor, claimed to know the truth, and this she wrote on a piece of paper before burying it with him.
I have never heard anything remotely like this. What was so mysterious and secret about his true date of birth?
Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time.
Which "experts"?
He graduated from the Conservatory in 1829, the same year he was to meet Konstancha Gładkowska ...
Konstancha? Konstancia, surely.
Dissuaded from joining the uprising himself Chopin drew inspiration from events to write his masterpiece, Revolution.
The Revolutionary Study is not known simply as "Revolution".
The Jane Stirling story is mentioned here and the same place says that "The Chopin Society celebrates the 22nd of February, as our Founder, Lucie Swiatek, favoured that date"
Konstancia? Konstancja, surely. Although I guess a Pole would use a 'j', a Brit would use an 'i' and a Russian would use an 'h'.
As promised, I have emailed the author of that text about his sources. He replied that his information comes from multiple sources, all of which are very reliable. He's travelling round Poland at the moment and has the sources on his office PC in Warsaw. Once he's emailed them to me and I've checked them out, I will be incorporating them into the article.Varsovian (talk) 09:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
To Varsovian: I have one word for your piece of information & the article from which you got it: TRASH.
I also wish you would not have put this title for the section you created. To do this, use that word, a few weeks before the bicentenary of Chopin's birth is shameful and, if you had any sense of decency, you would remove it. --Frania W. (talk) 23:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Frania: would you consider "Chopin an illegitmate child" to be an appropriate title for this discussion? If you would, I will be happy to change it. I simply used the word from the source I quoted.Varsovian (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
"At the time of his death only Jane Stirling, his Scottish benefactor, claimed to know the truth, and this she wrote on a piece of paper before burying it with him."
Varsovian,
1. When I see such a sentence at the beginning of an article, I immediately know the type of article it is. In French, this falls into the category of "presse à sensation", in English, "tabloid", and I call it TRASH. Imagine lending truth to the supposedly claim made by Jane Stirling (please bring the proof) that she wrote his real birthdate on a piece of paper and had him buried with it...!!! My answer to such sentence is that, logically, if the truth was buried, how can anyone use that piece of evidence to prove anything, one way or the other?
Now, one small & unique argument I am going to bring against that very sentence, and that is going to shoot it down as total untruth. At the time of his death, 17 October 1849, Jane Stirling could not be the only person to know the truth about Chopin's birthdate as his mother was still alive. Then, there was also his sister Ludwika who took his heart back to Poland. So, the piece of paper buried with Chopin by Mme Stirling...? Fairytale!
2. Another piece of TRASH: "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time."
Here is a mix up if I ever saw one! (And who are the "some experts"? The one Chopin that may (no proof, just a rumour) have been born out of wedlock from a Polish aristocrat living in France year before the birth of Chopin's father or Chopin himself would have been François Chopin, who was Frédéric's grandfather. So, after having read that sentence written out of ignorance and for sensationalism, you feel that it is correct to insult the memory of Frédéric Chopin, and that of his mother & father by putting such a title for the new section you created?
To see such garbage here a few weeks before the 200th anniversary of Chopin's birth is revolting!
I'll add a few expressions or phrases picked out of the article you are offering to us as the Truth parachuted to Earth:
"gushing reviews",
"Joseph Elsner, who was wowed by Chopin’s musical mastery",
"sparkling foreign debut",
"Chopin settled in playboy Paris",
"while his dapper dress and natural charms attracted a string of adoring females",
"Polish scandal sheets",
"controversial author George Sand (yes, that’s a woman)",
"he embarked on a torrid nine year affair" (the affair with Sand was anything but *torrid*),
"their rocky relationship" (was not *rocky*, only ended after ten years because of disagreement at the marriage of Sand's daughter),
"Sand, a loose-moraled man-killer",
"Broke, ill and now broken-hearted, Chopin led an increasingly miserable and secluded life." (not true as Chopin was surrounded by his friends who helped him out financially and stayed by his side until his last breath),
"though just like his birth, his death is equally contentious" (again not true, Chopin died of tuberculosis),
"If you believe the stories he carried a lock of Sand’s hair till the day he died (though by the same token he is also alleged to have carried an urn of Polish soil)" (the lock of hair was Marie's & there is no doubt about the Polish soil),
"he was petrified ",
"His funeral was as weird as his life",
"So tough cheese"
Such style should prevent anyone serious about contributing to the making of an encyclopedia to use this very text as a source. I would not touch a word of it with a ten foot pole.
So, Varsovian, answering your question Frania: would you consider "Chopin an illegitimate child" to be an appropriate title for this discussion?, my answer is a resounding No !, and at the risk of repeating myself, I find either of the titles you came up with extremely offensive, and stupidly so because based on untruth. I also find it ridiculous that you should report Dr. Loosmark as a vandal. The ones who desecrate the memory of people are the vandals, so, please, Varsovian, reconsider the title & do not make an edit war out of this.
You call it trash, I call it information from the Chopin Society. And it is most probable that they are ever so slightly better informed about Chopin than you are, wouldn't you say? They certainly seem to have less of a problem keeping a NPoV when talking about him. As for your comment about "the Truth parachuted to Earth", kindly do not attempt to put words into my mouth: I said that I had just read that text and asked if anybody knew anything more about it. If the author of the text provides me with the sources which he claims to have and if the sources meet WP policy, I will be including the information in this article. Varsovian (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Do you think you could possibly drop the attitude? That is clearly not a link to the Chopin Society, so why bother posting to imply that I said it is? The link to the Chopin Society which I have provided above is http://www.chopin-society.org.uk/articles/chopin-birthday.htm It covers the claim about the paper which Chopin's real date of birth on it being buried with him. Perhaps you would like to remember that just because you haven't heard something before does not automatically make it wrong. Varsovian (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I added a Trivia section to mention the fact that the municipality of Tirana, Albania had named a square after the composer. I have provided the references, but they are in Albanian. Also, if anyone thinks that the information i put belongs to a subsection or somewhere else in the composer's biography, please make the necessary changes, for i can't figure out where or how to put it.
Best regards
LiveGo 21:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orges (talk • contribs)
Baptism
The policy of the Roman Catholic Church in the 19th century was not to "Christen" children in the the vernacular (as is done today) and his baptismal records would show "Fridericus Franciscus Chopin" rather than Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok we are eagerly awaiting your sources. In the mean time you don't mind if I revert your for now unsourced edit, do you? Dr. Loosmark23:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Dr. Dan is correct: the registration of Chopin baptism is written in Latin showing dual names Fridericus Franciscus. His parents are "Nicolai Choppen French ("Galli") and Justina Kryzanowska, legally married..."
(OD) Thank you, Frania, for providing the source. Personally it was not my intention to add the Latin version to the lead of the Chopin article, since I think it is unnecessary "overkill". The issue was simply that Chopin was not "christened", Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, that is his name in Polish, and correcting this error was sufficient. That is all that I did with my edit and all that I desired. Again Frania, thank you for your extra work and efforts. Loosmark, there was no need to turn this into some kind of hostile incident. Correcting a blatantly false assertion doesn't require a "source". Chopin was baptised in Latin. Despite this simple fact, I only made the assertion that records show he was not baptised in Polish, here on the talk page, not at the article. My comment was an explanation for my edit . I shouldn't have bothered to ask you to provide a source for the other version because you couldn't do so even if you wanted to. My bad. Childish and useless comments like "Ok we are eagerly awaiting your sources. In the mean time you don't mind if I revert your for now unsourced edit, do you?", serve no purpose in so far as improving the project. Don't kid yourself that your comments and behavior do anything to advance your arguments and beliefs in the eyes of anyone trying to end the continuing juvenile and adolescent mentality that should have ended with the WP:EEML fiasco. Sometimes I read some of the things posted in these arguments and ask myself if these aren't the same people who "visit" the project on a daily basis with vulgar and obscene "edits" and then crawl back into the wood work for a day or two, and come back with more "gems". Eventually one can only hope these people will come around to realize the error of their ways and maybe contribute to improving Misplaced Pages. If not, they will find that they are not welcome and continue to be reverted, blocked, and banned from the project. Dr. Dan (talk) 05:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Dan I don't know what do you mean by advance your arguments and beliefs. With regards to Chopin I have no arguments or beliefs and I most certainly don't want to "advance" anything. All I am interested in is that the editors adhere to wikipedia's editing principles. Also interesting that you accuse me of juvenile and adolescent mentality but apparently you didn't have the slightest problem when a certain gentleman stamped a big title on this very talk page hinting that Chopin was a "bastard". That was the only really vulgar and obscene thing on this talk page. Dr. Loosmark10:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Do you think that you could perhaps read WP:AGF? It very very much appears from your behaviour towards me that you need to read it several times. Kindly note that I did not 'hint' that Chopin was a bastard: I posted a source (one which I find to be most usually accurate) and asked if anybody knew any more about the claim made in that article. Varsovian (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Back to the topic, of course this is interesting information, but I don't think it belongs in the lead of the article (as far as I know this Latin name wasn't used anywhere else than in the baptismal records, so it's hardly a notable name). Any objections if we move it to the section of the article that deals with his birth?--Kotniski (talk) 10:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
To All: I knew it was an "overkill"... and personally removed it, leaving the info in footnote "2". Bonne journée! --Frania W. (talk) 13:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
This article seems a little biased in its (arguably) excessive praise of Chopin. Quotations or citations regarding his supposed 'universal appeal' litter the article and seem to give the impression that there is no criticism of his music. While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion with many contemporary musicologists and composers, and much of the piano music of the 20th and 21st century piano music has been written 'in reaction to' what is seen as his bombastically scalar writing which has become the norm in popular perception of what is 'pianistic'. Is there anyone with a bit more background in the subject who would be able to contribute a section on this aspect of the contemporary reception of his work? I am not calling for a 'bash chopin' section or even 'criticism' -- if anything, it is a testimony to his profound success that his style is something to be reacted against. Thoughts? Am I just talking out of my hat, here?--James O'Callaghan 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDOCallaghan (talk • contribs)
My thoughts are that despite the truth of your comments (Chopin clearly does not have universal appeal, I know a number of people who can't stand his work), you will soon learn how Poles react to people who dare to even question the outstanding status of any Polish success! Varsovian (talk) 11:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Haha, perhaps. Hopefully they will join me in my love of Penderecki, then? --James O'Callaghan 03:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Dear James O'Callaghan,
While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion ... Could you give us something that is not "out of fashion" a century and a half later? And maybe "out of fashion" as far as composing is concerned, but certainly not "out of fashion" the way Chopin's music touches us, as does Mozart's music, Beethoven's or Telemann's. The fact that we are in the 21st century & musical styles have changed should not take anything out of the genius of Chopin, no more than Chopin's music took anything out of the genius of Mozart or Bach, two composers he greatly admired. Until now, great composers & performers always "respected their elders", as every great composer is a link between the past & the future. If it has become fashionable by some late 20th century & beginning 21st musicologists to belittle the creations of the greatest of the greats, it is a rather sad undertaking on their part. This being said, if you feel that this article is lacking in proper criticism of Chopin's work, why don't you create a new section ? - you already have a title for it.
I think I must have been in a bad mood when I wrote this. Anyway, perhaps what is best to take out of it is how Chopin's scalar style really did define what became known as idiomatic for the piano, and through that there has been a lot of continuation of and reaction to that style. This is really in a way that goes beyond the general 'old composers go out of fashion' conceit, which is not what I meant. In any case, I do believe I went on a bit of a rant and perhaps went a bit too far. I merely worry about the occasional generalizing statement about his universal appeal, etc.--James O'Callaghan 03:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Dear Mr. O'Callaghan,
It is quite unheard of for someone to admit to have been in a bad mood when writing! Funny because your words caused me to go into a rant..., which I admit. And I do agree with you that Chopin's music may not be universally loved or appreciated: to each his/her own taste. But do these 'old composers' really go out of fashion? Their music is an unlimited source used in films, films usually remembered because of their music. In the late 1940s, a song was composed by the Hungarian/French composer Joseph Kosma. It became a success around the world. Its title in French is Les feuilles mortes, known in English as Autumn leaves. The first measures of the refrain? : the fifth measure of Bach's Fantasie in D minor. How many supposedly Bach-haters do love that song, unaware that its refrain comes straight out of Bach ?
Chopin's other photograph (the one where he wasn't about to die)
Why has this been relegated to the bottom of the page? It should be next to the other one like it was for a time. Cloak' —Preceding undated comment added 13:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC).
LEAD: Polish, French, or Polish-French?
I correct it , in fact chopin was half french and half polish, so I don't understand why people write only polish. What's wrong with french ? Is it francophobia or something like this ? I understand that he was born in Poland but he gained french citizens thanks to his father ( « Tout enfant né d'un Français a l'étranger est Français »). So he was half french, half polish. It's not complicated, except if you have something against the french ....:( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.66.146.209 (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
You have to understand that although Chopin had a French father, a Polish mother and French citizenship to many Poles he is in no way French, he is purely Polish. Just as Copernicus had a Polish father, a German mother and spoke no Polish but to many Poles he is in no way German, he is purely Polish.... Varsovian (talk) 12:46, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The father of Nicolaus Copernicus came from Cracow, where the majority of merchants were Germans, and shortly after arriving in Thorn, he served in the "Schöppen" council, for which he had to be able to speak proper German. While a few other persons are referred to in council documents as Polish, no member of the astronomer's family ever was. -- Matthead Discuß 19:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Which brings up the question: Are we to follow the guidelines, or are we to edit the article merely to appease one nationality or another?
Wiki guidelines:
The opening paragraph should have:
Usually this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the essay "Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" and the talk page archives. There are also issues with highly mobile people whose nationality may be unclear.)
Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
Are the 1804 Code Napoléon on French citizenship, plus the facsimile of Chopin's register of baptism and one of his passports (1837) issued by the French wiki-acceptable as proof of Chopin's French nationality?
I would very much say that they are (which is why I edited the article to say "Polish-French"). I suppose an alternative might be to simply not mention his nationality in the lede. Varsovian (talk) 15:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
We don't do original research or original synthesis here. We assume Chopin probably had French citizenship from the evidence presented, but until a reliable source says it, we can't say it. Anyway that's a different matter from his "nationality", which is what's important for purposes of the lead. I don't think anyone who knows anything about Chopin can doubt that he identified as a Pole. If there's any evidence that he considered himself a Frenchman (and it's that that matters, not whether the French government considered him a Frenchman), then I've yet to see it. (The guideline quoted isn't much help, as Chopin lived in a time where nations did not generally correspond to citizenship-granting states - he probably wasn't even a Polish citizen, as there was no such thing at that time.)--Kotniski (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski: Something escapes me.
Is reading the "Code Napoléon", which has been in effect since 1804 and was in effect in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of Chopin's birth, doing original research anymore than reading the driving code, which tells us that running a red light is a "no-no", be considered original research? In either case, the law is the law printed black on white for everyone to read and to know.
Here is the 1804 Code Napoléon translated into English:
Is this to be considered original research when it is easily available on the Internet with the click of the mouse? If it is there, others have done the research before and made it available to us.
Frania W., reading the code is definitely not original research because anyone can do so. Original research is primarily experimental work (like dropping a Mentos into a bottle of Pepsi to see if it will explode), or similar.THD3 (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, if reading the code "is definitely not original research", then article 10 of Code Napoléon (1804) can be used as proof of Chopin's French nationality at birth.
But drawing a conclusion from what you've read is original research. Since we are not lawyers specializing in 19th-century French law (apologies to anyone who is), we can't make deductions like this. For all we know, the law changed, or Chopin's father lost his French nationality (which the Code Napoleon would in fact imply, and which the Polish parish priest wouldn't know about), or any of a number of things that renders our conclusion invalid. And in any case, this isn't the matter we're discussing, since in Chopin's case citizenship law is of such little significance that as far as we known none of his many biographers have mentioned it, therefore it does not belong anywhere near the lead.--Kotniski (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Does one need to be a lawyer specializing in 19th-century French law to look at a passport? Chopin had a French passport, as can be seen by looking at his French passport. Do we know if he had a Polish passport? Varsovian (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2010
Konitski.
1. The Code Napoléon is the law, which - in France - no one is supposed to ignore. If it is necessary to find - not reading it out of the Code itself - that a child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French, then I shall endeavour to do so.
2. The Code Napoléon is still in vigor and a child born to at least one French parent (mother included, which was not the case in 1804) outside of France is French.
3. Even if the law had changed, as far as Chopin is concerned, the law applied would have been that of the time he was born, i.e. the 1804 Code Napoléon.
4. If Chopin's father had lost his French nationality, then it would not be written on Chopin's 1837 passport "born of French parents" (in the plural because when Chopin's mother married Nicolas Chopin, she automatically became French.)
5. Leaving Chopin's nationalities out of the lead will not solve the problem because it will always come up, and with good reason: every author, composer, poet, political person is given his/her nationality in first sentence of the lead, so we cannot escape with Chopin.
Example #1 with Victor Hugo: Victor-Marie Hugo (French pronunciation: ) (26 February 1802 – 22 May 1885) was a French poet, playwright, novelist, essayist, visual artist, statesman, human rights activist and exponent of the Romantic movement in France.
Example #2 with Marie Curie: Marie Skłodowska Curie (7 November 1867 – 4 July 1934) was a physicist and chemist of Polish upbringing and subsequent French citizenship. NOTE: (quite a weird way of describing her as being born a Pole! and that remains in Misplaced Pages...)
Varsovian: Chopin arrived in France in 1831 with probably a PolishRussian passport, which he found difficult to bring himself to renew (in 1834) because he would have had to go to the Russian Embassy in Paris. Polish refugees in France were to either renew their Polish passport (thru the Russian Embassy), or register with the French as "émigrés", which Nicolas Chopin suggested he not do, in a letter to his son dated 7 September 1834. That is when Chopin contacted the French administration & got a French passport - based on the fact that he was born a Frenchman because his father was French, hence the mention on his French passport "né de parents français".
Please forgive me, but I must leave my computer for a few hours & will pick up the discussion later.
Leaving out the bit in the lede about the nationality of Copernicus (whose father apparently makes him Polish to some people) seems to have stopped the problem about what nationality he was. Varsovian (talk) 18:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Copernicus can't be easily assigned to any nationality. Chopin can. There is no "problem" here except that of certain notoriously anti-Polish editors who show up time and time again to try to score points off the Poles by raising irrelevant facts. No-one can seriously dispute that "a Polish composer" very accurately represents the man (though the lead should also mention - without cites, they come later - his significant connections with France).--Kotniski (talk) 06:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Based on the above arguments, I conclude that the intro should describe Chopin as being Polish-French. FWIW, similar discussions have taken place in the talk pages of the Vladimir Horowitz and Arthur Rubinstein articles, with similar results. There is another issue with the intro: It's too long. Everything but the top paragrapgh should be integrated into the main body of article.THD3 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the intro should describe Chopin as being Polish-French. However, it may be less controversial to simply omit references to his nationality there. Varsovian (talk) 19:02, 22 April 2010
(UTC)
It would made things simpler to omit the nationality - but it's against MOS as described above. Information should not be left out merely to avoid upsetting certain persons. THD3 (talk) 19:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The ugly bolded Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin should be removed from the lead. Would should the English Misplaced Pages show Polish translations of the German names Friedrich and Franz, when the composer himself used the French translations? -- Matthead Discuß 19:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
You agree that Chopin's names were translations of German ones? I've come to expect this sort of trash from Matthead, but I thought you were just a bit more discerning. --Kotniski (talk) 10:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps you could limit yourself to addressing the comments that I make and not the ones that I do not make? I agree that the bolded Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin should be removed. The man himself used the French names and those are also the names used in English. I have never once heard a native speaker of English use the name Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin. Varsovian (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
It's perfectly normal to give the French names of French people, German names of German people, etc. in this way in Misplaced Pages. Why this sudden objection when it comes to a Polish person? (In fact, even my one-volume "New Everyman Dictionary of Music", which has a much shorter article on Chopin than we do, finds space for this information and presents it in practically the same way we do.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
This is English language Misplaced Pages: we use the names most commonly used by speakers of English. In that case that name also happens to be the name used by the subject of the article. Interestingly, Polish language WP can find no space to include the name by which Chopin is known to the English speaking word or to his French compatriots. Varsovian (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
And he was born in the Duchy of Warsaw, ruled by Frederick Augustus I of Saxony. If Copernicus is claimed as Polish just because his hometown has allied a few years before his birth with a king of Poland on the occasion of his wedding with a German princess, then Chopin can be claimed as Saxon, too. -- Matthead Discuß 19:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, clearly Chopin should be described as German—as was demonstrated earlier by certain German scholars of the National Socialist period. Nihil novi (talk) 05:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I've read about that. The author of the piece which I read pointed out that at the time when the comment was made Poland did not actually exist and thus something even a quarter Polish would be more Polish than Poland. Varsovian (talk) 10:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
We are beginning to slide off the subject, which should not be what people such as Sand thought of Chopin's Polishness, i.e. the nationality of his soul & his music, but what his actual nationality was according to the civil code (Code Napoléon) in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of his birth, which makes it clear that he was French.
We have the following:
baptismal register stating his father was French (=galli);
he travelled on a Polish probable Russian passport when he left Poland in 1830;
at time (1834) he had to register with the French as a Polish émigré or refugee, or go to the Russian Embassy to get a new passport, which would have been Russian, the French authorities gave him a French passport on which is written "né de parents français", which, according to the French civil code, was stating that he was French.
P.S. The passport we have here is that issued in July 1837, not that of 1834. At the time, passports were for one year, which means that from 1834 until his last trip outside of France in 1848, Chopin had several French passports.
--Frania W. (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree that this is of any great interest at all (you're still confusing citizenship with nationality - we went through this ages ago), but can you specify where you get this "he travelled on a Polish passport when he left Poland" from? I seem to have missed that - do we have a photo of the passport or anything like that?--Kotniski (talk) 12:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
If we assume that Chopin was a Frenchman as a citizen of the Duchy of Warsaw, then all Poles are in fact Frenchmen. Brilliant example of original research. Chopin was a Pole with French father, there is no controversy here. All respected musicological sources reflect that, only certain well-known trolls are trying again to re-write history here. - Darwinek (talk) 15:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Darwinek, forgetting the usual name calling, your remark, "If we assume that Chopin was a Frenchman as a citizen of the Duchy of Warsaw, then all Poles are in fact Frenchmen"...makes absolutely no sense. Furthermore I don't see anyone making such an assumption here. The argument is that his father, who was French, retained French citizenship per the Code Napoleon. As another consideration you might take a look at this . THD3 is quite correct... "it isn't a matter of life & death". Dr. Dan (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, there is such an assumption, made by "Frania" above. However, retaining the French citizenship by his father is non-controversial ... I think it is not a problem for anybody here. The problem are allegations Chopin was solely French, which is just not true. - Darwinek (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
You can certainly count on my support in opposing anybody who wishes to edit the article to say that Chopin was solely French. You are completely right: it is not true that Chopin was solely French; he was Polish-French (or perhaps French-Polish would be the better way round, either way he wasn't solely French!) Varsovian (talk) 18:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Darwinek, I re-read Frania's (without quotation marks) remarks and don't see it. Please link the specific passage. If you are referring to ..."but what his actual nationality was according to the civil code (Code Napoléon) in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of his birth, which makes it clear that he was French", I have worked with Frania concerning this article and other articles and it was never my impression that she believes Chopin was "solely" French. I don't think anyone else at this discussion thinks so either. The conundrum seems to be that one side thinks he was "solely" Polish. That's simply not the case. The article should reflect that he was Polish-French and we can move on. Seems to be rather simple. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply that she had said that. My point was that if anybody did want to edit the article they would receive precisely the same amount of support from me as a person who wants the article to say the Chopin was purely Polish, i.e. none. Varsovian (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
(ec) It reflects what fits the facts (or it did before we got this strange "Polish-born" forced into the text) - that he was Polish, with a French-expatriate father (his father was probably more Polish than French actually - he fought for Poland, which according to the Code Napoleon would have cost him his French citizenship, but it seems we aren't allowed to make that deduction). I don't see any point in saying "Polish-French" when the facts are so well-known and the degree to which he was "French" can be explained in words. Anyway, it all comes down to sources, and it can't be denied that there are some sources that say "Polish-French", though in my experience far more of them say "Polish". Do we have any secondary sources that say Polish-French - biographies and the like (I know we have this link to Britannica, but that seems to be more than cancelled out by Larousse, which says "polonais", and ought to be at least as authoritative on this matter).--Kotniski (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Frania is not "rewriting history".
Frania has also never said that "all Poles are in fact Frenchmen."
Frania has never made the assumption that Chopin was "solely" French.
Frania is saying that, at time of his birth, Chopin was a Pole and a Frenchman.
Frania is saying that Article 10 of the 1804 Code Napoléon, which was in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of the birth of Chopin, makes it clear that, as of the son of a Frenchman, Chopin was born a Frenchman... - which was in addition to being a Pole.
I have contacted an administrator to request arbitration on this matter. Until that time, let's everybody keep a cool head, and try to espouse a neutral point of view. Remember, this is just an encyclopedia article, it isn't a matter of life & death. However, I feel we owe it to Chopin's memory, especially in his bicentennial year, to get it above a C-class, where it presently resides.THD3 (talk) 15:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Konitski:
According to the 1804 Code Napoléon in vigor at the time of Chopin's birth, Chopin was born a Frenchman - now, whether you want to interpret this as a French national or a French citizen, as far as I am concerned, c'est du pareil au même: he was a Frenchman.
Chopin began travelling outside of Poland - or should we say the Duchy of Warsaw? - in 1828: Berlin; 1829, Vienna, Prague, Dresden; 1830: Dresden, Prague, Vienna; 1831: Vienna, Stuttgart, Paris. In order to travel, he needed a passport and I assume (forgive me Widipedia for assuming) that he travelled on a Polish or Duchy of Warsaw passport. No, I have no facsimile of it, nor have I ever seen any, but without passport, Chopin could not have left Poland.
NOTE: In Selected Correspondence of Fryderik Chopin, collected & annotated by Bronislaw Edward Sydow, translated by Arthur Hedley from Polish and other languages (French & German) used by Chopin and his correspondents, McGraw-Hill, 1963, p. 90, from what is referred to as Chopin's Album (a diary):
Stuttgart, after 8 September 1831: "My passport expires next month - I am not entitled to live in a foreign country - at least I have no official right..."
Kotnitski wrote about Nicolas Chopin: "'he fought for Poland, which according to the Code Napoleon would have cost him his French citizenship, but it seems we aren't allowed to make that deduction)."
Excerpt from the life of Nicolas Chopin from the Narodowy Instytut Fryderyka Chopina, Warsaw:
In 1794 Nicolas became teacher to Jan Dekert Jr. in Warsaw, and in November that year he is reputed to have participated in the defence of Warsaw from the Russian army of Alexander Suvorov, which ended with the bloodshed of the Praga district and the fall of the capital. Nicolas did not serve in the army, but in the compulsory civil defense (residents' militia).
Nicolas Chopin never lost his French nationality; his participation in the defence of Warsaw was in 1794, ten years before the Code Napoléon came out, and which did not become juridically retroactive — (I also doubt very much that the French, at any time, would have taken away his French nationality/citizenship from a Frenchman for helping the Poles defend themselves against the Russians - but that is a remark I am making to myself.)
And if Nicolas Chopin had been deprived of his French nationality, then why would his son's 1837 French passport bear the mention "born of French parents"?
Chopin (or whoever was acting on his behalf) presumably didn't mention the war when applying for the passport... Anyway, assuming there was a status more or less translatable as "French citizenship" back then, and assuming the French authorities only gave passports to people they regarded as having that status, and assuming the photo is genuine, we can conclude that the French authorities regarded Chopin as having something more or less translatable as French citizenship. Personally I'm happy with all three assumptions, but for the purposes of making any statement to that effect in the article, we'd not only need sources confirming each assumption, but by Misplaced Pages standards (this is what WP:SYN is about - a bit harsh in my view, but it's the policy) we'd actually need a source confirming the conclusion. And that's just to say something like "he held French citizenship" somewhere in the article. I hope such a source can be found, but even then, I don't agree that it makes him "Polish-French" for the purposes of the lead sentence - that term would seriously misrepresent his nationality in terms of its importance for his life, work and legacy, and in terms of how countless reliable sources describe him (they obviously don't consider the legal question of citizenship - assuming it is as we assume - to be a determining factor in his national identity). Although like Britannica, some sources obviously do use this term, so perhaps a fairer representation of the totality would be something like "a Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French) composer".--Kotniski (talk) 05:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski: It has nothing to do whether Chopin (or whoever was acting on his behalf) presumably didn't mention the war when applying for the passport..., The Code Napoléon came out 10 YEARS after Nicolas Chopin's participation in the defence of Warsaw from the Russian army of Alexander Suvorov, and was not applied retroactively. Thus:
Article 10 of the Code - born outside of France of a French father - applied at the time of the birth of Chopin, i.e. 1810.
Article (I do not have the number in my head) - serving in a foreign army - did not apply because the facts happened in 1794.
That Misplaced Pages classifies "original research" or whatever (WP:SYN) what I am doing, I personally do not care because I know that I am right, and I prefer to be right alone than wrong with the crowd. By saying that juridically speaking Chopin is/was French is not taking his Polish nationality & Polishness away from him, it simply gives him what belongs to him. The problem with Chopin is that only musicologists write about him & these respected authors never bothered to look into Chopin's nationality/nationalities; it is not their concern. And because of the tragedies that have befallen the Poles over the years, the French have never come forward in force with their claim & proof that Frédéric Chopin was also French. That is where the problem lies. And it must seem strange that someone with a name such as mine would fight for the recognizance of Chopin as being also French.
Not so much for those reasons, but it just seems to be a personal website, so not really a reliable source. Interesting, though (and some of the information he cites, particularly the quotes, might be usable somewhere in the article).--Kotniski (talk) 17:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I was asked to review this issue. I have no stake in the matter whatsoever. My first response is: "Another wiki ethnic war, lovely". Get a grip people, solve your issues instead of using wiki to foment more ethnic wars and push a particular POV. And knock off the personal attacks while you're at it. Anyway, here's my take. Chopin was born in Poland, lived there essentially his whole youth, did not speak French as a native, and George Sand said he was more Polish than Poland. To call him solely French is preposterous. He needs to be called Polish or French-Polish (don't know about other countries but in America it'd be French-Polish, not Polish-French). All this outweighs the fact French law made him eligible for a passport in addition to being Polish. The case of Copernicus is more ambiguous because he didn't speak Polish but I digress. Face it, his dominant culture was Polish, not French. Yes French is part of his heritage and culture but not the predominant one. I have personal experience in this matter...I am American and my wife is Thai. Our kids are half Thai and half American (which I'm a western European mutt and American Indian). My kids were born and live in America. To say they are Thai only is silly. They're either American or Thai-American. Likewise, Chopin, I strongly feel, should be called Polish or French-Polish. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:44, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Rlevse, thank you for your take. Like you I have no particular stake in the matter, other than Misplaced Pages presenting accurate and correct information to its readers. If some want to turn this into "another wiki ethnic war" that is their problem and they may have to be dealt with appropriately. Now lets be clear about one thing, no one to my recollection, no one at this talk page, has contended that Chopin was exclusively French. That is not so. On the other hand many, and they are here at this talk page, want to believe that he is exclusively Polish. Even though it is not true. Interestingly, Marie Curie, who was 100% Polish, is usually considered to be Polish-French when located in most references. Amazingly we are asked to give some kind of undue weight to George Sand saying "he was more Polish than Poland". More weight than the fact that his father was French, born in France. More weight than his baptismal certificate or passport. As for him having lived essentially his whole youth in Poland, he lived most of the rest of his life in France. Neither fact is particularly important in solving how he should be categorized. Copernicus is way too off topic, and due to the lack of information that is often the case with medieval personages can't be of much help here. As for your personal family situation, thanks but it leaves one with a "pick and choose" what you want and doesn't help much either. If Bonnie Prince Charlie can make it on the list of Polish British, I think Chopin being claimed as either French-Polish or Polish-French is not only the best solution, but the only one based on reality. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Can we stop making totally irrelevant points about other people and how they are (probably wrongly) classified. Can we just try to get this one right? As we all know, our personal views on what is "The Truth" count for nothing on Misplaced Pages - we just believe what reliable sources say, and if the sources differ, we describe the difference. Does anyone object to my proposal (above) to say "Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French)", as a fair reflection of the sources?--Kotniski (talk) 17:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, what might be irrelevant to you may not be irrelevant to others. "Truth" and reality conveniently put aside, you ask if your proposal is a fair reflection of the situation..."Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French)". I think it is weasely, and might assuage some "hurt feelings" that it can't stay exclusively Polish. There is sufficient evidence, and I dare say sourced evidence, that he is Polish-French. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I support Kotniski's proposal as it seems a fair compromise. I also support the proposal of my colleague Dan that Maria Skłodowska should be considered 100% Polish because that's what she was. Dr. Loosmark18:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Could this horrible sentence be changed? "...was a physicist and chemist of Polish upbringing and subsequent French citizenship." What is that nonsense about "Polish upbringing", then "subsequent French citizenship"?
I think the best is to say Polish-French or French-Polish. Why is Polish-French being proposed over French-Polish? I don't know about the European style, but the American one would be French-Polish. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
"Polish-French" vs "French-Polish"? Since he was born on Polish soil, "Polish-French" is what should be; besides, if we have "French" first, the wrath of the Poles will fall upon us! --Frania W. (talk) 21:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Why? You're all missing my question. Here, if you're born/raised in America the "American" comes second and the ancestral part first, so it'd be, for example, Thai-American; or for an American of Polish descent, Polish-American. Kotinski seems to be saying "he's mostly Polish so Polish should come first". I don't care which side gets upset due to the outcome, I care that we get it right, with sound reasoning. So unless someone comes up with a sound reason why it should be "Polish-French", I'm sticking with "French-Polish". — Rlevse • Talk • 22:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
You must understand that these "Xian-American" compounds don't generalize - we all know what a "Polish American" or "African American" is, but it's not true in general that an "Xian-Yian" is a Yian of Xian descent (at least, some people might use it that way, but it would be a very unreliable way of conveying information to readers). Here we need to say explicitly that he was Polish with a French father; then we've said what we mean and everyone should be happy.--Kotniski (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Frédéric Chopin's mother Justyna Krzyżanowska was a citizen, serially, of Poland, South Prussia, the Duchy of Warsaw, and the Congress Kingdom (Russian Poland); but all her life she was ethnically and culturally Polish. The composer's father Nicolas Chopin (Mikołaj Chopin) was born in France, left at the age of 16, and became thoroughly Polonized, speaking at home to his children only in Polish (though he taught French to the children of other Polish nobility). Frédéric was reared as a Polish patriot, traveled abroad to further his musical career, and remained abroad in order not to live in a country that was under foreign subjugation.
For someone who affects a Poland-related user name, you seem to have a very poor grasp of Polish history and of Chopin's biography in particular.Nihil novi (talk) 20:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
She also acquired French citizenship when she married Nicolas Chopin. That is why Fred's French passport says 'born to French parents'. Thank you very much for your personal comments about me, they are hugely useful. Varsovian (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
If Frédéric was, on those grounds, deemed by the French to be a French citizen and was as a result able to obtain a French passport, then good for him! It came in handy when he continued living in France. Was he considered a Frenchman by the Russians who ruled the Congress Kingdom after 1815, or by his own compatriots — or by himself?
The child of a foreign mother who gives birth to her child in the United States is, even if they immediately leave the U.S., deemed by the United States to be a U.S. citizen. The child may thereafter have little else in common with the United States — even if he applies for and receives a U.S. passport. Nihil novi (talk) 21:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
But the nationality of Frédéric Chopin IS NOT "simple stuff" ! Poland was torn up & divided by three powers, and the people of carved out Poland were left with not even an official national identity. But they were Poles in their heart & head & music, and no one could take that away from them. If we want to dig (dubbed verboten in Misplaced Pages no original research, but that we can do on our own so that we know what's true or not, and as long as we keep it to ourselves, or mention it ONLY on the discussion page), so, if we dig a little, we quickly find that Chopin was in fact Russian. When Chopin was a child, on several occasions, he was invited to play the piano at the palace in Warsaw, not the palace of any king of Poland, but that of the Grand Duke Constantin, brother of the Russian Tsar. A godsend to Chopin was that his father was a Frenchman, which made Chopin a little Frenchman at birth, making it possible for him, in 1834, in Paris, to get his first French passport, instead of registering in France as a émigré or having to go to the Russian Embassy in Paris & be issued a Russian passport. In fact, I doubt that he held a Polish passport when he left "home".
In 1849, a few weeks before Chopin died, his dearest friend, Titus, rushed from "Poland" to see Chopin for the last time. When he arrived at Ostende, on the French-Belgian border, Titus was not allowed into France because he was a Russian subject, and the French authorities made difficulties into recognizing the validity of his Russian passport. When he learned of it, Chopin wanted to go meet Titus in Belgium, but he was too weak to travel. So, in view of all this, it seems to me that the fact that Chopin was born in Poland (a country that did not exist any more, but in the heart of the Poles) of a Frenchman, which, because of the Code Napoléon, made his son a Frenchman, the mention of the French nationality of Chopin is an important matter.
Sorry, Rlevse, for the long spill commenting your one line sentence, and thank you for your intervention.
Right. As I noted above, if the accident of having a French-born father made Frédéric eligible for a French passport, then good for him! But that did not make him French in his own eyes, but a Polish expatriate living in France.
Frania, we understand what you're saying, and have done for a long time, but it's all about the legal concept of citizenship, which might be interesting, but isn't key to someone's national identity, particularly in the period we're talking about here. If you doubt this, just consider why you haven't found any information about this subject in any of the biographies you've read - it's just not considered of primary importance by those who are interested in a person. Or imagine your country were suddenly partitioned between its neighbours, and ceased to exist and have citizens - would that change what you are, how people would characterize you?--Kotniski (talk) 07:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
At least, we seem to be understanding explanations given by one another! And you'd be surprised to learn how much I am in agreement with you as to the way Chopin felt himself a Pole. Many French lived that type of situation in Alsace and Lorraine after the 1870 war and again no later than WWII.
But the fact is that Chopin had a French father, which means that he was not "granted" a French passport as a ploy to avoid him the pain of having to get a Russian one, but because it was his right as a French national/citizen. I unfortunately have not read all of his correspondence, but I would love to see the remarks he may have written in his journal the day he came back from the Paris Préfecture de police after having been told that he was a Frenchman!
I do not have much hope of finding it, one reason being that his journal (which I do not have) was written in Polish (which I do not read), although Chopin probably inserted bits of French in it; however, he may have informed his father since it is his father who suggested to him to regularise his situation in France in a letter dtd 7 September 1834: "Do not fail to do this and let me know what happens—it is easy for you to do this since you are well known." The suggestion of his father was to "make inquiries about this at the embassy", and that is where Chopin must have found himself in a bind, having to choose between a Russian passport & a status of émigré. That's when French law saved him. (You'd better believe that I have been hunting for this evidence for a long time!) This also leads me to believe (non-wikiable), that when Chopin left Poland, he was travelling on a Russian passport, not a Polish one. --Frania W. (talk) 15:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Now, the fact that his French nationality/citizenship (oh! Kotniski, you bug me!!!) is not mentioned in any of the biographies we have read is because all these biographies are written by musicologists and/or Poles who highlight the Polishness of his music, and I can easily imagine that the Poles are going to hold on to Chopin, for which I do not blame them, and not let the French "have him". On the other hand, as I mentioned before, the tragedies endured by the Poles have made the French "let them have him": he is & always has been Poland's rallying "flag". (I remember calling from Paris friends in Poland in the early 1980s, and all one could hear on the telephone - while unable to reach the friends - was Chopin's Étude Révolutionnaire. It sounded as if it was blasted throughout the whole of Poland!)
Finally, of course Chopin always felt himself to be a Pole, it's spread out all over in his letters, just as people from Alsace & Lorraine felt themselves to be French after these French provinces had been taken by the Germans; in fact, and this is demonstrated in the case of Chopin, during the periods Alsace & Lorraine were under German domination, people of these two provinces were the most patriotic of Frenchmen; and when Alsace & Lorraine were returned to France, there was no argument as to them being French, and when we talk about them, say "Alsaciens" & "Lorrains". But, all this being said, juridically speaking, Chopin was a Frenchman at birth, and this cannot be ignored. Had he not been a young musician already famous, had he been a "Polish plumber", the French would have given him a French passport because he was born so - thanks to the Code Napoléon.
Do people prefer the new lead (consisting of just one short paragraph)? Looking at other major composers' articles, they all seem to have at least two paragraphs, sometimes significantly more. I agree the previous lead could have been cut down a bit (and I did so), but do we really need to go quite so far as we've gone? For one thing, we've now lost the key facts that explain (better than any one- or two-word description can) the circumstances of his national background (see thread above). Does anyone object to restoring the previous lead as being closer to the length we would expect, and then perhaps cutting some non-essential information from it if we think it's slightly too long?--Kotniski (talk) 06:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I object to anything more than a very minimal expansion of the lead. First of all, what is listed in other composer articles is irrelevant to what is listed here. Pages should follow the guidelines. Second, the material has not been deleted: It was either moved into another section or duplicated something already in the article.THD3 (talk) 12:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
What in the guidelines tells us the lead should consist only of one short paragraph? Nothing of course; you seem to think that "opening paragraph" = "lead", which is not true. The opening paragraph is part of the lead; see the real guideline, which is WP:LEAD. --Kotniski (talk) 17:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I have reviewed WP:LEAD. However, it does not address the main issue, which is that the material in question is covered elsewhere in the article. If you want to expand the lead slightly, that's fine. But let's keep it in focus and not rambling. A perusal of A-class articles on other composers would provide a template.THD3 (talk) 12:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Not many of those, but I've looked at some GA- and even FA-class ones, and they generally seem to have even longer leads than Chopin's article has at the moment (e.g. Tchaikovsky). So I don't think it can be claimed that the current lead is too long or rambling - in fact it could happily be a bit longer if that were really felt necessary.--Kotniski (talk) 12:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
"Secret Little Journal"
At the very end of the section in the article called "Young man" there is a reference to a secret little journal that Chopin kept. It's hard to say if this is sourced or not because the reference following it, of Zdzisław Jachimecki, maybe to the etude and scherzo, or both. Does anyone know if this diary is still extant? And if it has been published? Dr. Dan (talk) 14:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
In the book in which I am finding treasures of information,
Selected Correspondene of Fryderyk Chopin, abridged from Fryderyk Chopin's correspondence, collected and annoted by Bronisslaw Edward Sydow, translated by Arthur Hedley, McGraw-Hill, 1963,
there is mention of a diary named "Chopin's album", in which Chopin wrote details that do not always show in his correspondence.
I do not know if this "album-diary" has been published separately, but there are several excerpts from it in the above-mentioned book.
Thanks, perhaps someone else has more information on the diary/journal. I'm especially interested to know if this journal still exists (sometimes such things are lost or destroyed). It would also be nice to know what language it was written in. Dr. Dan (talk) 16:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if the journal was secret or not, but this extract from Jim Samson's The music of Chopin certainly indicates that he poured out his despair around that time into a journal now known as the "Stuttgart Diary". There's a footnote, but I can't see where it leads to. See also Section 7 of this article. Grove also mentions the "Stuttgart Diary", and says that when he learned of the failure of the uprising, he "gave vent to his feelings in an extraordinary, barely coherent outpouring of grief in his album." Presumably "his album" = "Stuttgart Diary"? Not sure. Rigaudon (talk) 17:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The first excerpts from "Chopin's Album" (in Polish) in Selected Correspondence of Fryderyk Chopin are given on pp. 79-80 with an entry dated Vienna 1831 (probably written on 2 April), followed by one dated 1 May. Chopin writes about a concert he'd rather not have to give. He is filled with homesickness, talks about "her", about a walk on the Prater, the scent of flowers bringing back memories of his childhood, a feeling of depression, and he has no compliment for the Viennese whom he finds to be "kind of habit" but doing "everything too systematically, in a flat mediocre way which gets on my nerves."
Next entry is from Stuttgart, after 8 September 1831, pp. 89-91. It begins "Stuttgart. How strange! This bed on which I shall lie has been slept on by more than one dying man, but today it does not repel me!" Death and corpses seem to be the leitmotiv of the piece. One before last paragraph begins: "Stuttgart. I wrote the above lines not knowing that the enemy has reached my home!...". The last two paragraphs, both on the bad news from home, with last sentence being: "Oh, God, God! Make the earth to tremble and let this generation be engulfed! May the most frightful torments seize the French for not coming to our aid!"
Next in the book, p. 91-94, is a letter from Paris two months later, on 18 November 1831, addressed to Alfons Kumelski in Berlin, and in which he writes (in Polish): "I reached Paris quite safely although it cost me a lot, and I am delighted with what I have found..." He gives an extraordinary description of Paris, its "filth" & its "splendour", and of his fifth floor apartment, 27 boulevard Poissonnière, "you wouldn't believe what a charming place I have". (I wanted to mention this letter to show that Chopin does not sound depressed anymore, two months after the gloomy passage written in his diary while in Stuttgart, and that he found Paris & the Parisians rather attractive, amusing, colorful etc.)
Chopin wrote in
Polish to his family & Polish friends, but his father wrote to him only in French;
German to his German acquaintances who also wrote to him in German: Schumann, Anna Liszt (Liszt's mother);
French to everyone else, his French friends & acquaintances, naturally, but also Joseph Elsner, Prince Radziwill, Maria Wodzińska, Felix Mendelssohn, Liszt, Breitkopf & Härtel, Kalkbrenner.
Thank you, Frania and Rigaudon for giving everyone a better insight to help improve the article. As for the diary itself, do we know what language he wrote it in? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC) :p.s. Nihil novi, thanks for your input too, I know how important it is to you to contribute something useful here.
Dr. Dan & Nihil novi: Experiencing edit conflict while the two of you are getting your swords out. Give me just a minute to try again:
Thank you, Dr. Dan.
Chopin wrote in his diary in Polish. (There may be French mixed into it.)
I believe Nihil novi could not resist the joke... which is good, and no worse than some of the ones Chopin told about the English & their Philharmonic orchestra, which he compared to "their roast beef and turtle soup", as being "strong and efficient, but that is all."
Don't worry Frania, Nihil novi and I go back a long way. I don't believe either of us are going after blood. Are you familiar with the adage, "Many a truth has been said in jest". If so too much jesting, like too many cooks spoil the soup (turtle or other types). I've eaten roast beef in Poland, it's not their specialty. Prefer English roast beef. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC) p.s. no need to answer at your talk page.
Please note that when Chopin wrote that "roast beef/turtle soup" pique, he had been fed seventeen years of French "ortolans & cuisses de grenouille". --Frania W. (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Ortolans are a delicacy of the past, they are now a protected species - just like Chopin who is both a delicacy of the past & a protected species... --Frania W. (talk) 14:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Last entry in diary
According to Arthur Hedley, in the book of Selected correspondence (p. 372), Chopin's last entry in his diary on 3 October 1849, two weeks before his death, are the last written words we have of him. His last known letter was one to Franchomme on 17 September, in which he tells his friend that he (we) found an apartment at 12 Place Vendôme, "which is very expensive but fufills all the required conditions." --Frania W. (talk) 17:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
If the accident of having a French born father...
"If the accident of having a French-born father (yeah Nihil, the accident happened)...then good for him! But that did not make him French in his own eyes". Nihil novi, that's one of the better contributions regarding Chopin's heritage that you've put onto these talk pages, although you've come up with some pretty good gems elsewhere on Misplaced Pages on other subjects over the past few years. I'm sure you're familiar with the old Polish saying "If my Auntie had a mustache she'd be my Uncle". Well Nihil, that "accident" regarding Chopin's birth happened, Chopin had a French born father. Nicholas Chopin was French. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Ah, Dan the demagog! You needn't overexert yourself to prove that Frédéric Chopin's father Nicolas (Mikołaj) was of French origin — if you will, was French. That is given. The question at hand is, what was the nationality (not citizenship) of Frédéric? All the evidence demonstrates that he saw himself as Polish. And so does the world and nearly all reference works and biographies. Nihil novi (talk) 05:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
You probably meant demagogue and I'm not overexerting myself because Chopin's father was French, not because "I will it" to be so, but because it's a fact. This interesting concept of "what one sees themselves as", and so does the world, according to you, is another matter. Even if that biased assumption were true, unfortunately we still need to deal with reality. If a person sees themselves as a cocker spaniel, that doesn't make them one. You might remember Arthur Brisbane from "Lęk wysokości". Besides Misplaced Pages has done a superlative job, correcting misconceptions about many false myths concerning people and events. Take this myth as an example of that. While the rest of the "world" (that would even be interested in the subject) believes that Poland got it's ass kicked in three weeks, and charged at the Germans with lances on horseback, Polish contributors on Misplaced Pages have set the record straight. Nothing wrong with doing something similar here at this article. Demagogue how? Dr. Dan (talk) 14:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Chopin seeing himself as a Pole can be compared to a person seeing himself as dog!? Dan please, it's well know that you like to provoke Polish editors (even as you assured everybody "you don't have anti-Polish feelings") but it is a bit too much. If a person sees himself as cocker spaniel then the person simply has some serious mental problems. If Chopin saw himself as a Pole then with all probability that's true. See for example this article about the former chess world champion Garry Kasparov, his mother is Armenian, while his father was Jewish but he considers himself Russian and the article says he's Russian. Nobody has yet proposed to call him Aremian-Jewish. And thanks God nobody started to make comparison with dogs and stuff like that. Dr. Loosmark15:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Now, if we could just get rid of the myth that the British excluded all Poles from taking part in the London Victory parade because the British were nasty people and all wanted to kiss Stalin's bottom....Varsovian (talk) 14:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
"Dan please, it's well know that you like to provoke Polish editors", perhaps somebody might like to read WP:AGF again? Also, where exactly do repeated accusations of racism ( and ) and race baiting fit in with WP:CIVIL? Varsovian (talk) 15:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Chopin being the product of both his French father & his Polish mother, "if the accident of having a French-born father..." had not happened, then we would not have had Chopin, nor this discussion. --Frania W. (talk) 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
(OD) My goodness! How to start, where to start? Perhaps Frania, Rlevse, Rigaudon, and THD3, (please note, again no quotation marks around Frania's name), are some of the few people participating at this specific thread, concerning the entire issue, that have a handle on it. Loosmark, I'm surprised that after recently conferring the doctoral degree upon yourself, (in what field may I ask), that you would take the humorous comment concerning the Mel Brook's movie as somehow an anti-Polish "provocation". Really "Dr. Loosmark", for Pete's sake, get a grip on it. No one is comparing Chopin to a dog. I'm not so sure that the argument being presented that Chopin "saw himself exclusively as a Pole" is a valid one, and that therefore he disavowed his paternal ethnicity or that it was not important to him also. That he cherished Polish culture and his Polish heritage is indisputable. That he excluded his French heritage, in his world view, is not. Then again, if in the unlikely event that you could produce some "evidence" that he did so, it would not change the reality of his paternity. Not any more than if Barack Obama saw himself exclusively as a Kenyan than the bi-racial individual that he is. Chopin's mother was Polish, his father was French, he was Polish-French and "all the King's horses and all the King's men" are not going to change that reality. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Nobody is trying to change the fact that Chopin's father was a French nor that he has some French herritage. The question is simply whatever the lead should call him "French-Polish", IMO the article itself can explain his French herritage. btw does Obama lead call him Kenian-American? Dr. Loosmark22:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
That's nice to know, the part about nobody (sic) is trying to change the fact that Chopin has some (50%), French herritage (sic). The Obama article lead doesn't call him Kenian-American (sic) because so far there aren't any xenophobic nationalistic Luos trying to argue that he doesn't have a mixed ethnic backround, and make him exclusively Kenyan. If the Obama comparison is opening a new can of worms here, skip the analogy. Even if the Obama article was incorrect about the entire matter, we need not rely on it to give some carte blanche to allow this one to misinform our readers regarding factual information. Btw, what field is your doctorate in? Really would like to know. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not just Obama, before I gave you another example, Garry Kasparov. He's considered Russian even if none of his parents are Russian, they are Jewish and Armenian respectively. Nobody says that's xenophobic or nationalistic and the article doesn't try to "correct" that in the lead, it simply explains the Armenian and Jewish heritage further in the article. And there are analogies between Obama and Chopin. One is American with a Kenyan father and the other is Polish with a French father. Dr. Loosmark00:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Loosmark, thanks for taking the time to explain your position regarding this question. I know that you're busy with other matters on Misplaced Pages , so again, thanks. I don't completely understand your point regarding Kasparov. I think the concept of being a Jew in my native land and yours is different. If the Kasparov article is in error, it's not a blueprint to err here at this article. But moving right along, you might be familiar with the article called, List of Polish Jews. The list is populated with a plethora of "Polish-Jews", "Jewish-Poles", and Jews and Poles. Who then and what are these people? Is the article regarding Szmul Zygielbojm correct in calling him "Jewish-Polish"? You tell me. The list proudly tells us about many "Polish"-Jews, most of them hyphenated. So I don't know if Kasparov's father was a Russian-Jew, or if that's even important. You want to get technical about it? Chopin was born in the satellite state called the Duchy of Warsaw. Does that make him Russian, Prussian, or anything else other than Polish-French? Of course not, even though Poland didn't exist at the time. Because even if Chopin had been born in China to a Polish mother and a French father he'd be Polish-French, not Chinese, that's the way it was then and now anywhere else but in this bizarro world that I'm wasting my breath talking with you about the matter. But regarding your Obama-Chopin "analogy", aren't you missing something?
Per Loosmark:"And there are analogies between Obama and Chopin. One is American with a Kenyan father and the other is Polish with a French father".
Per Dr. Dan:"And there are analogies between Obama and Chopin. One is an Afro-American with a Kenyan father and an American mother and the other is Polish-French with a French father and a Polish mother".
Cher Dr. Dan, I would have thought that, as a self-identified American, you would have known that "demagog" is a variant spelling of "demagogue," as "catalog" is a variant spelling of "catalogue."
Evidently your doctorate was not in Englishorthography. What was it in, did you say? I fear it wasn't in history, either.
While your trademark sarcasm, and mystification through misdirection, cannot be calculated to endear, you do render the Misplaced Pages project a distinct service as a guide to truth, inasmuch as you reliably champion the wrong side in most any controversy.
"I fear it wasn't in history, either." Nihil, Be not afraid, I have what in your country would be called a magister degree in history. And a doctorate in medicine. And an interest in many other things. As for championing the "wrong side" in many controversies, maybe so. Certainly so, when the "right side" of this controversy denies Chopin's clear ethnic and cultural association with France, and the "right side' of this controversy is doing so because it affronts their national pride. Thanks for pointing out the alternate spelling for demagog. Never too old to learn something new. Couldn't find one for "herritage" though. I wish I could compliment you as much as you compliment me concerning my rendering Misplaced Pages a distinct service. That's primarily because of some of your "bad boy" behavior in the past. And Nihil, I certainly hope that, "Cher Dr. Dan" and "Compliments, cher Docteur!", aren't meant to mock Frania. I was always under the impression that Polish gentlemen are noted for their exceptional courtesy towards the fairer sex. You know, całowanie w rękę, itd. Być może to wypada (maybe that's no longer the case). Dr. Dan (talk) 16:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC) p.s. Am still curious what Loosmark's doctorate is in.
It must be wonderful to have always with you, as you do, something that you seem to enjoy so much: the sound of your own voice.
You appear to have run out of arguments concerning Chopin's nationality, as you have now gone on to assigning nationalities to Misplaced Pages editors. And gone on to other distractions from the topic at hand.
Now you're hearing voices? Sorry about that, Nihil novi. Also sorry about assuming you were Polish, I got that from the template of your former user page when you were Logologist, "Polski jest językiem ojczystym tych użytkowników" (This user is a native speaker of Polish). I'm sure you remember what I'm talking about, it was before you changed your user name after all of that sockpuppetry, etc. Well, my bad. Maybe you don't consider yourself to be Polish afterall. Don't know about Dr. Seuss' doctorate. From what I got out of that article, it seems it may be a case similar to the Dr. Loosmark doctorate. Ask him. As a result of your earlier snide remarks, I made the mistake of being courteous and letting you know what my academic degrees are in. Regarding your other questions concerning them, I'll decline giving you those answers because of your obvious hostility. It's unnecessary to give you my personal information, and answering those questions will not lead to any consensus as to what Chopin's ethnicity, nationality, or citizenship were. As for "running out of arguments concerning Chopin's nationality/ethnicity", I don't think so. Last time I reviewed them, my argument was that Chopin's father was a Frenchman, born in France. And if you want to really get technical about it, emigrated to a Protectorate of the Russian Empire. But forget the technicality, let's just agree that the Frenchman emigrated to Poland. Your argument seems to be "he (Szopen) saw himself as Polish". And according to you "so does the world". So, no I don't think I'm running out of arguments at all. Trust me, his paternity, plus the information concerning his baptismal certificate, his passport, the Code Napoleon, his letters, and the large part of his adult life spent in France are arguments that cannot be refuted. It's only a matter of time when the majority consensus, with referenced sources, will correct the current error at the article. It has been corrected several times already. The only reason that the correction has not yet been reinstated is as a courtesy to allow people, who argue that Chopin having a French father is meaningless, to come up with something better than "he saw himself as Polish". Please come up with something better than "he saw himself as Polish". I think that's how you see him. Got anything written by Chopin stating "I see myself as Polish". There's plenty material about his father being French. Dr. Dan (talk) 05:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Last time I reviewed them, my argument was that Chopin's father was a Frenchman, born in France. OK, Dan, that's a really interesting argument for Chopin being French. The question is, why do you want to apply this logic only to Chopin? If I remember correctly, Winston Churchill's mother was American. Why don't you, Dr. Dan, try to argue on the Churchill talk page that the lead of the article should say he was an American-British rather than just a British politician? Try it, and let's see what happens, I am ready to bet the reactions will be much more "nationalistic" than any reaction here. The only reason we are still having this discussion is as a courtesy to allow people who argue that Chopin having a French father equals Chopin being French, to come up with something better than "his father was French!" If we start to apply that logic, then the leads of 100s of articles will have to be changed. Dr. Loosmark14:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Frédéric Chopin, born of a French father, was French at birth because said so the "1804 Code Napoléon" in vigour in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of his birth.
If there had not been the Code Napoléon, the only mention possible would be of Chopin's French ancestry:
"a Polish composer & pianist, born of a French father & a Polish mother" -
which, in this case is not correct, or rather not complete, again because of the 1804 Code Napoléon making the whole difference, i.e. the necessity of adding "French" to "Polish".
P.S. And, por favor, do not anyone come again throwing at me the charge of Misplaced Pages's "no-no" on original research: I am quite aware of it, having heard it a thousand times - which does not forbid me to state what I know to be true, on the discussion page. In fact, this very argument I am giving may just be what's needed, eventually leading one of us to the discovery of a reliable source, the Code Napoléon itself not being accepted - weirdly so!
In Chopin's case, are encyclopedias reliable sources, or must we accept as only gospel-truth the writings of authors who may not have done a thorough job of research because not asking the right question? In other words, Tad Szulc is more reliable than the Code Napoléon because he wrote something that appeared in book form. Correct? Or is Tad Szulc more reliable than
Bitannica Macropædia - Knowledge in Depth (1997), and also its online 2009 version, which give Chopin as
You previously cited, as your source concerning Fryderyk Chopin's nationality in the light of the Code Napoléon, and concerning the role of this in his obtaining recognition of his French citizenship and a French passport, "Emmanuel Langavant, agrégé de Droit public, Professeur à la Faculté de Droit de l'université de Lille II." If you will provide the full source and a summary of the professor's argument, I'll be happy to consider it, as I earlier proposed, for an in-line citation in the "Frédéric Chopin" article.
The Langavant source, I think, need not be a book. It may be an article by him, a newspaper or magazine article giving his views, etc. Nihil novi (talk) 21:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Can I suggest that this discussion, if it must continue at all, continue somewhere else? It isn't contributing either to the betterment of the Chopin article or the improvement of the editing atmosphere. Thanks, --Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree entirely. It's funny the way that works, isn't it? A certain editor gets involved, starts accusing other editors of being racists and suddenly the conversation goes sharply downhill. As I noted above, perhaps somebody needs to read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Varsovian (talk) 10:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
You have repeatedly accused other editors of being racists, and being just two examples. On this talk page you accused Dr Dan of race-baiting, i.e. racist behaviour. Racist behaviour is displayed by racists and so you in fact accused Dr Dan of being a racist. I would strongly suggest that you read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Varsovian (talk) 13:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I have not accused anybody of being racist, let alone Dan. If you have any concerns, take them to the appropriate noticeboard and leave this talk page free for Chopin related discussions. Thank you. Dr. Loosmark15:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The diffs I have provided show that you most certainly have called other editors racist. And saying "Dan please, it's well know that you like to provoke Polish editors" is related to Chopin how exactly? How is race-baiting connected to Chopin? Varsovian (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski, it is not for you to be the judge and jury of what is appropriate on these talk pages. Please immediately replace all of the information you removed and this attempt of yours to censor other people's opinions and statements. You are certainly within your rights to report anything you like and get an evaluation. This removed thread, and I'll agree with you that there is plenty of useless "fluff" interspersed within it, has a lot of good arguments concerning Chopin's heritage. If there is incivility or violations of Misplaced Pages policy taking place at the thread, the appropriate solution is not airbrushing them. They are best evaluated where they were written and in their proper context. Again, you should not take this matter into your own hands and pick and choose what stays on a talk page. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, I've asked for an admin's opinion. If you think you have any good arguments concerning "Chopin's heritage", please present them.--Kotniski (talk) 18:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
If I have any arguments concerning Chopin being Polish-French I would prefer to explain them on an uncensored talk page. Right now my argument is that you do not have any business censoring this talk page. I especially suggest that you replace the thread now, while you're waiting for an opinion. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:30, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages survey
Misplaced Pages has articles on Frédéric Chopin in 88 languages, of which I can read 71 sufficiently to determine what nationality their leads assign to him. Of the latter articles, all but 4 (94%) describe him simply as "Polish." Nihil novi (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages to be considered a "global reliable source" when we are warned against using Misplaced Pages material taken from other articles when we want to prove a point ? Many "other" languages articles are copied from a basic one, carrying along its truths and errors. I often find a suspicious detail in an article on a historical personage or event of France, and when I check the article in French, I find that particular section, paragraph or sentence to have been taken verbatim (and translated) from that article, errors included.
Nihil novi: Out of the 71/88 articles you "can read sufficiently to determine what nationality their leads assign to him", how many of these articles mention Chopin's baptismal certificate, the 1804 Code Napoléon and Chopin's 1837 French passport? And I would like to bet that, once it has been established (if ever) in both French & English articles that Chopin was in fact also French, a lot of these 71/88 articles - excluding the Polish one - are going to be edited accordingly.
If I am accused of the cardinal sin of original research - the 8th cardinal sin since the founding of Misplaced Pages, and of which I do not believe to be guilty -, then be it; because I'd rather be alone believing the Earth is a globe than among those who (still) believe it is flat.
On the one hand, we are asked the support of sources; on the other, when we want to make use of these sources, we are told they are
(a) not reliable;
(b) not acceptable because OR.
"The term "original research" also refers to any analysis or synthesis by Wikipedians of published material, where the analysis or synthesis advances a position not advanced by any of the sources."
Where is my supposed analysis covered by this? Where is my bringing out Chopin's baptismal certificate, the 1804 Code Napoléon and Chopin's 1837 French passport? a personal analysis when their veracity stares anybody right in the face? Besides, I did not go dig these documents out of the archives of the church where Chopin was baptised, nor did I go do research at the Archives nationales de France, nor did I give these pieces my own interpretation. These three pieces - documents being rejected - are presented by Emmanuel Langavant, agrégé de Droit public, Professeur à la Faculté de Droit de l'université de Lille II, and articles out of/in Misplaced Pages are devoted to the Code Napoléon - so where is my personal analysis? In my eyes, rejecting these documents & accusing me of doing original research makes no more sense that rejecting the existence of the Eiffel Tower in an article on Paris. Let's say that I have never been in Paris, when seeing a photograph of the Eiffel Tower (supposedly in Paris) then I could put in doubt its very existence and demand: "Show me, give me a better proof, because I believe this is a montage and, the whole story of its construction, a fairy tale."
so where is my personal analysis? well your personal analysis is in that you claim that these documents are a proof of Chopin's nationality. if some respected author would make such an analysis in a book, then it would be ok to use them. it's as simple as that. Dr. Loosmark17:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I am sorry to hear that Mr. Langavant is not a respected author/authority in his analysis of Chopin's nationality/citizenship, and that the Code Napoléon has no more worthiness than an autumn leaf gone with the wind
Mr. Langavant is most certainly a respected author but doesn't he analyze Chopin's citizenship, rather than his nationality? Dr. Loosmark18:01, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
(OD) Frania your remark, "Many "other" languages articles are copied from a basic one, carrying along its truths and errors." Now that is the truth. Dr. Dan (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Usually that's true for less prominent articles, high profile articles like Chopin are usually written quite independently between various wikis because there are always enough knowledgeable people who are interested in the topic. Dr. Loosmark19:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, there are enough knowledgeable people interested in the "Chopin" topic, but mostly musicologists, musicians & Chopin's fans, people who place Chopin the musician in a Polish niche or that of a universal musician; but rarely has anyone bothered to look into the legal aspect of Chopin's nationality/citizenship. People always mention the fact that his father was French, but look no further as to the effect that fact had on his son as a French national/citizen at birth in the faraway Duchy of Warsaw, and to the latter young man who arrived in France on a Russian passport. This is a "lacuna" in research & publication, a missing piece that Langavant is providing us with, unfortunately not in a book form. --Frania W. (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
If we are looking into questions of citizenship, where may we find authoritative information concerning all of Frédéric Chopin's serial citizenships and their interrelations?
Frédéric's father, Nicolas Chopin, left France before the 1804 promulgation of the Code Napoléon, and married in 1806, after its promulfation, as a citizen of South Prussia (part of pre-partition Poland) and a subject of the King of Prussia.
Did France, Poland, Prussia, the Duchy of Warsaw in personal union with Saxony, and Congress Poland, ruled by Imperial Russia, recognize dual citizenship?
Did Congress Poland, under Imperial Russia's tutelage, continue to regard Frédéric Chopin as its citizen after he had been recognized by France as a French citizen?
Did Chopin formally renounce his citizenship of Congress Poland? Was he required to, in order to become a French citizen?
How should Frédéric Chopin's 1) citizenship and his 2) nationality be viewed sub specie legis internationalis and sub specie aeternitatis? Should he, perhaps, be described as a "Franco–Polish–Prussian–Saxon–Russian pianist and composer"? Nihil novi (talk) 07:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Dear Nihil novi: What an impressive questionnaire!
Now, since you have been making a difference between "nationality" & "citizenship", I would like to get something clear: a Frenchman/woman born in France is both a French national and a French citizen, while a foreigner who becomes a Frenchman/woman is only a French citizen, n'est-ce pas? If you answer "yes" to this question, then, applying your logic to Chopin - and putting all other "citizenship" aside, Chopin being a Frenchman at birth, thanks to the Code Napoléon, would belong to the category "French national* & *French citizen" at birth.
Now, we all agree that the Poles (and let's forget about Misplaced Pages’s rules & regulations on original research for a while & converse just as if we were sitting at the Café de la Paix in Paris) - as I was saying, we all agree that the Poles born in the centuries before the various partitions of Poland were Polish nationals/citizens/subjects of the king of Poland of the time. It is when the various partitions occurred that, in my eyes, the Poles became "more Polish than Poland", just as any man, woman or child feels when his/her country is annexed by a foreign power (Please see the history of Alsace & Lorraine.)
Now, the Duchy of Warsaw having in the end landed into the hands (=under the boot) of Russia, its "people" - although remaining Poles in their heart & soul (sorry I have no source for that, only hearsay) -, were Russian subjects, "subject" being the word I see popping out of books, not "citizen", and that the only passport they could travel on was a Russian one.
Now, going thru your points
(1) Born in France, Nicolas Chopin remains a Frenchman all his life because, since only if considered a traitor to France, a Frenchman does not lose his nationality/citizenship; therefore, whether a citizen of Prussia or Russia, still a Frenchman beyond the grave.
(2) Born of French parents, thus French, according to the ‘’Code Napoléon’’, idem for the son of Nicolas Chopin: no matter what other nationality/citizenship he may have held, still a Frenchman beyond the grave - hence his possibility of obtaining a French passport when Poles – “Polonais” (word used in Nicolas’ letter to his son in September 1834) were asked by the French government to either renew their (Russian) passport or register as refugees. (The word in the translation by Arthur Hedley is “émigré”, but the word in the letter written in French by Nicolas is “réfugié”)
(3) As far as the French were concerned, the subject of “dual citizenship” was not mentioned. Because of circumstances, one could be Polish (or anything else) and French. Chopin father & son were French. Their other nationality was a concern of the other nation, not France. What the law may have been outside the borders of France was not governing France, it did not come into play into the sovereignty of the French declaring who could be or was a citizen of France. Idem for the “other nation”, and that’s why when he traveled outside of Poland, Chopin did so on a Russian passport.
(4) Answer to your question: “Did Chopin formally renounce his citizenship of Congress Poland? Was he required to, in order to become a French citizen?”
Since Chopin WAS a French citizen since his birth, he did not have to “become” one. The French gave him a French passport because he was a French citizen (should I again mention the ‘’Code Napoléon’’?). Period.
(5) Finally: "How should Chopin be considered?" In my eyes, he is Polish & he is French, but “my eyes” are of no consequence. All I have done is explain my understanding of the matter, which leads me to ask that whatever consensus is reached as to what should be in the lead of the article, a few lines should be devoted to Chopin the Frenchman, according to the ‘’Code Napoléon’’. In other words, without taking anything away from Poland or Chopin himself, his French nationality should not be denied, rejected, ignored or swept under the rug.
Would you think less of cher Frédéric if, in exile from his native land, he accepted a French passport while not feeling particularly French? Nihil novi (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
There is not one thing our cher Frédéric could have done that could make me think less of him - and I am more than happy that he was welcome into France the way he was, with the added cherry on the cake that his birthright to a French passport kept him from having to renew his Russian one or become a refugee in the native country of his father. The idea of thinking less of Chopin because he did not stand on his balcony singing the Marseillaise but, instead, composed Polonaises & Mazurkas has never entered my mind, no more than holding against him his sentence crying out his rage against the French in his diary in the autumn of 1830. Yet, I know that, as a Pole, he felt a deep attachment to France. Whether he felt French or not is another matter, which cannot hinder the fact that he was born French, fact that enabled him to obtain a French passport. --Frania W. (talk) 01:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
If you have a verifiable source, why not place an in-line note, summarizing the information and the source, immediately after note 28, which quotes Tad Szulc on this very question of Chopin's French passport?
If you aren't too conversant with the mechanics of in-line notes, put a draft on this talk page, and I'll review your note and enter it into the article. Nihil novi (talk) 03:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
As soon as I have time, I will put Langavant's reference in the Paris section , next to Tad Szulc, at sentence: "Though an ardent Polish patriot...", and will return here for comments.
Langavant's explanation on French nationality according to 1804 Code Napoléon (= Civil Code) & how it applies to Frédéric Chopin who was born in Poland of a French father. In such a case, the Code was based on jus sanguinis, thus Frédéric Chopin was French because his father was:
L'Empire et le droit du sang rétabli le Code civil de 1804, où figurent les premières dispositions relatives à la nationalité, a marqué une rupture avec l'Ancien Régime : la filiation (le droit du sang) devenait le mode principal d'attribution de la qualité de Français. La loi posait, sans condition, qu'un enfant né d'un Français en pays étranger était français. Elle prévoyait toutefois qu'un enfant né en France de parents étrangers pouvait réclamer la nationalité dans l'année qui suivait sa majorité à condition qu'il fixe son domicile en France. En refusant ainsi l'attribution automatique de la nationalité française à qui était né sur le territoire national (ancien droit du sol), le Code civil affirmait certes le respect de la volonté individuelle, mais traduisait surtout l'intention de limiter le nombre de personnes appelées à jouir des droits civils français.
If need be, I'll translate the above. Too busy right now.
On another note I'm quite impressed that Nihil Novi, is able to "sufficiently read" 71 out of 88 languages. Since you've already done the research, which presumably does not fall under the category of "original research", you mention 4 articles acknowledge Chopin's dual ethnic heritage. Could you be so kind as to tell us which ones they are? Save us the trouble of having to read through all 88 articles, please. I for one can't sufficiently read 71 languages. Let's all take a closer look at this, since you brought it up. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Loosmark, my compliments. This is something that I can appreciate. Obviously Nihil thought so too since he judiciously copy-edited it for you. I pulled an all-nighter at the hospital so I'm tired and want to rest before I analyze it a little and give you a reply. But I will, and soon. So don't start giving yourselves high-fives, and cracking out a bottle of Boone's Farm and placing it in a champagne bucket, yet. I might dream about it or go into a trance (since one of you thinks that I love to hear my voice), with me chanting as I speak. But let me be serious about it, I like your approach, and it is worthy of a serious response. I need a few hours of rest before I deal with it. Hold on. Dr. Dan (talk) 12:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Now then, Loosmark, how to respond to your comparison of Chopin's article to Winston Churchill's? One way would be to ignore it completely. A frequently used tactic by many around here. Another way to respond would be like Nihil novi did when Frania brought up this very excellent point ... "May I ask if "the right to bear arms in the United States" must be argued on Misplaced Pages only by the use of a source other than the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution"? Nihil responded with . Controversial? Way too weasely of a cop out. All one would have to do is to say that Churchill and Polish POV are embroiled in controversy, and slough off your comparison on that basis. Churchill at Yalta. Churchill in his history of WWII, The Gathering Storm (1948) wrote "...In 1938, over a question as minor as Teschen, they (Poland) sundered themselves from friends in France and Britain and the United States...we see them hurrying, while the might of Germany glowered up against them, to grasp their share of the pillage and ruin of Czechoslovakia." Yes, plenty of controversy with the Second Amendment, and with Churchill and Poland too. But enough of my preamble. I think you made a good point and worthwhile responding to.
Churchill was a British politician, and that statement is true. Churchill was a British politician and that has no more to do with his ethnicity that stating that Alberto Fujimori is a Peruvian politician. As a matter of fact after I started the article on Jan Piłsudski, I was queried by the Prokonsul Piotrus, about a similar consideration . I explained to him, as I'm doing to you now, sure Jan Piłsudski was a Polish politician, but that doesn't change his, or his more famous brother's ethnicity. Churchill's ethnicity is simply a mater of fact. So Churchill was American-British, something he himself acknowledged. Not something that he denied. And not something that seems to be a matter of contention. If an editor cares to state that in the lead of the Winston Churchill article, and can source it, I for one will not be upset. Furthermore the analogy between Churchill and Chopin loses steam because Churchill didn't emigrate to the U.S. and spend half of his life there. That's why we can call Arthur Rubinstein, "Polish-American" , or T.S. Elliot, "Anglo-American" and not rend our garments either. Every article on Misplaced Pages has its merits and lack of some. Just as we don't pattern every article after another on Misplaced Pages (it would be very boring) we do like to inform people with factual information. Like the fact that Chopin was Polish-French. I'm not going to waste your time with a plethora of examples where Polish Wikipedians have made many people "Polish-Some Other Ethnicity", or fought the concept when they objected to it, one will do ...What's funny is how certain so called "Polish icons" of indisputable mixed ancestry are not allowed to have that fact acknowledged. It becomes too upsetting for certain editors to have to deal with that. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
There is also the fact that both of Chopin's parents were French (his father was French born and had French citizenship & nationality, his mother acquired French citizenship upon marriage) while only one of Churchill's parents was American. Chopin was a French citizen at birth, qualified for a French passport at birth and applied for one in later life; Churchill was never an American citizen, never qualified for an American passport and never acquired American citizenship. Varsovian (talk) 21:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for confirming exactly what I just said: Churchill was given honorary American citizens document precisely because he did not qualify for American citizenship or an American passport. He never acquired American citizenship or passport: he was given an honorary citizen's document. See any difference? If he was American, he would have been given an American passport to go with his real American citizenship. Also, perhaps you could find time to read WP:CIVIL? Varsovian (talk) 23:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Loosmark, "epic fail" is two words. Don't know about Varsovian's familiarity with Churchill. I for one was quite aware of his "honorary" citizenship and passport. Maybe it's another reason to make an adjustment at Churchill's article too (I'm joking). And Varsovian, I disagree with you that Chopin's parents were French. I do understand the technicalities involved (citizenship, passports, et al.), but it's just this simple, Chopin's father was French, his mother was Polish, and he was Polish-French. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Anyway I won't make a vulgar splash with this document all over this page. It was written in Poland however, in Latin. What do you make of it? It's about Chopin, and we're at his talk page. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Dan even with my best efforts I am completely unable to read that handwriting. Btw I think your and mine positions are not as much apart as it might look. Dr. Loosmark23:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Loosmark, I have never thought that our positions, on many matters, are incapable of being resolved amicably and in finding some common ground. The "illegible" document is from the baptismal registry at the church in Żelazowa Wola, where Chopin was christened. It was written by the Polish parish priest. It states that his father is French. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
You mean "A Pole with a French father and a French-Polish mother, who was a French citizen at birth and later chose to live in France as a French national who held and used a French passport." Or we could just say "Polish-French" that would be a lot simpler and shorter. Varsovian (talk) 11:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
What matters here is the civil code at the time of Chopin's birth. And the civil code in effect in the Duchy of Warsaw when Chopin was born was the 1804 Code Napoléon. The French will NEVER disown a citizen who was born French because his/her country was later invaded, taken over, crushed, occupied by another power. What counts here is the civil code at the time of Chopin's birth.
Of course I have a source which confirms that she was French: Chopin's French passport states that he was born to French parents. And unlike the document above which you seem to think proves Churchill was in anyway entitled to American citizenship or an American passport, Chopin's French passport was a real passport issued to real citizens, not an honorary citizen's identity document which is issued to people who are not entitled to citizenship or a passport. Varsovian (talk) 13:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I see you are still having problems understanding what a proper source means. Please find some book or other publication, by any respected author, which claims that Chopin's mother was "French-Polish". Dr. Loosmark13:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Why Langavant's article cannot be accepted? He is not a fly-by-night blogger but a respected French jurist. --Frania W. (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
You are perfectly correct in your assessment of Langavant. However, he refuses to state that Chopin was exclusively Polish and to a certain type of editor that automatically means that he can not be a reliable source. Varsovian (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Langavant cannot state that Chopin was exclusively Polish for the very simple reason that Chopin was also French. And he, Langavant, would not be a respected jurist if he was stating the contrary of the argument by which he demonstrated that Chopin was French, and which would also be contrary to what the French civil code is stating.
So basically what are you saying is that the nationality of a person is decided by the French civil code? Dr. Loosmark19:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
French law very much decides who is and who is not French. Just as US law decides who is and is not an American citizen (which is why Churchill had to be granted honorary citizenship of the USA: US law said that he was not a citizen of the USA). Varsovian (talk) 20:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
That line of reasoning leads to ridiculous situations. Let's say that tomorrow the French decide to pass a law giving Obama French citizenship. Is then Obama suddenly French? And what if say Zimbabwe makes a law that makes Sarkozy Zimbabwian!? Please lets stop joking, nationality of a person cannot be decided by any law regulating citizenship. In fact in many countries question about one's nationality are forbidden (for example during a census). Chopin identified himself as a Pole and that should be good enough. Dr. Loosmark20:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
If the French passed that law and Obama applied for a French passport under it, Obama would indeed be French. Any other points you wish to make? Varsovian (talk) 21:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
None of you seems to have noticed what I added at the Misplaced Pages survey section about ten hours before you picked up your amicable discussion. However, since there seems to be a relationship between Winston Churchill & Frédéric Chopin, (yes, the resemblance is striking, how could it have escaped our eyes!) I am copying my piece here, and after it having been read, it can be removed as it is already up above.
Langavant quotes the 1804 Code and explains the French nationality/citizenship (the French word in Code being nationalité) of both Frédéric (at birth because born of a French father) and his mother (because becoming French when she married a Frenchman), which is the reason why on the 1837 passport issued in the "name of the King", it is written that he was born of French parents.
Langavant also gives the translation of the paragraph written in Latin in the baptismal register.
Bone journée & keep up the good fight!
FW
Here is the source where I got Chopin's
baptismal register (already in article at footnote n° 5):
Langavant's explanation on French nationality according to 1804 Code Napoléon (= Civil Code) & how it applies to Frédéric Chopin who was born in Poland of a French father. In such a case, the Code was based on jus sanguinis, thus Frédéric Chopin was French because his father was:
L'Empire et le droit du sang rétabli le Code civil de 1804, où figurent les premières dispositions relatives à la nationalité, a marqué une rupture avec l'Ancien Régime : la filiation (le droit du sang) devenait le mode principal d'attribution de la qualité de Français. La loi posait, sans condition, qu'un enfant né d'un Français en pays étranger était français. Elle prévoyait toutefois qu'un enfant né en France de parents étrangers pouvait réclamer la nationalité dans l'année qui suivait sa majorité à condition qu'il fixe son domicile en France. En refusant ainsi l'attribution automatique de la nationalité française à qui était né sur le territoire national (ancien droit du sol), le Code civil affirmait certes le respect de la volonté individuelle, mais traduisait surtout l'intention de limiter le nombre de personnes appelées à jouir des droits civils français.
If need be, I'll translate the above. Too busy right now.
Please clarify what you are saying because, on the one hand you want proof and, on the other, when certain points are presented, you tell me that "bodily repetition of large texts is unnecessary". I am not giving the Larousse text as a repetition, but to show that this "respected" encyclopedia is in agreement with what Langavant is saying.
Will I ever be able to mention Chopin's (and his father's) French nationality/citizenship without being confronted & stopped in my endeavour by the Polish Guard? Because it is becoming obvious to me that, no matter what, no matter what proof, birth register, passport, civil code I use in this discussion, the Polish Cavalry will always stand in my way & try to muzzle me.
I did "notice what added at the Misplaced Pages survey section ." No need to repeat it all here. Sheer mass of repetitive text does not necessarily translate into cogency of argument. Nihil novi (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
My dear Nihil novi: The reason I "repeated" at this section the text that I had put at Misplaced Pages survey is because "Messieurs" were so engrossed in their discussion on Churchill's American citizenship & passport, and the possiblity of President Obama being offered the French citizenship & President Sarkozy of France that of Zimbabwe, that I felt my hard work was being ignored - hence the doublet. OK?
By the way, thank you for removing the *h* at Nicolas Chopin in the title of his article.
BsBsBs Are we living in Wikidictatureland? You post here a msg saying that "After extensive discussion... article has been amended". Why were not we notified a discussion was taking place. (Pardon me if it has, but I cannot find anything on this page.)
The "extensive discussion" lasted exactly nine (9) hours. Then you "amended" the article and only after did you come here to inform us of your fait accompli.
Previous to this, you never participated in this discussion on Chopin talk page.
I could understand your action if you were a Misplaced Pages Administrator, although Wiki Administrators show more courtesy, and come & announce what they are going to do before doing it.
P.S. Besides, the sentence you added in the article plus your footnote n° 29 are not necessary, as mention of Tad Szulc's book with quote were already given in footnote n° 28.
Tadeusz Witold Szulc, znany również jako Tad Szulc (ur. 25 lipca 1926 w Warszawie, zm. 21 maja 2001 w Waszyngtonie) – amerykański dziennikarz polskiego pochodzenia
Yes, born in Warsaw, thus a Polish national, who later became an American citizen, fact that Polish Misplaced Pages puts in the lead of the article. A simple observation. --Frania W. (talk) 02:01, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
It gets even better. Tad Szulc gets put in a "special" category . I suppose if he hadn't emigrated to the U.S. he'd stay here , but like Chopin he did emigrate and that takes him off this list . Dr. Dan (talk) 02:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Clearly the Polish Misplaced Pages made a mistake — which the English Misplaced Pages has avoided — in placing a nationality in the lead. Probably the Poles found Szulc's "American" status too impressive to pass over in their lead. Since, however, Szulc's highest formal recognition was granted by the French (the Légion d'honneur), the Poles should instead have called him French. Nihil novi (talk) 04:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
What I find interesting with Tad Szulc is that I believe he could turn out to be the secondary source I have been looking for, even if I do not agree with something he said, because, in the end, we both arrive at the same conclusion, and while my argumentation is rejected, his is accepted - because published in a book form:
My argument:
I brought to the discussion three documents taken from Langavant's article on Chopin's French nationality: Chopin's baptism register with mention that his father was French; Chopin's 1837 French passport & article 10 of the 1804 Code Napoléon declaring that a child born outside of France from a French father is French.
These three pieces proving that Chopin is French are unwikipediable because of Misplaced Pages "rules & regulations" that demand from contributors that they use secondary, not primary, sources.
Tad Szulc:
Let's drop the baptism register & the Code Napoléon, and look into the passport issue:
- where Tad Szulc writes that Chopin obtained a French passport after becoming a French citizen, I say that Chopin obtained a French passport because he was French (the famous Code).
Now, Tad Szulc & I are in disagreement only on that point, but we both agree that Chopin got a French passport because he was French: born French vs naturalised, but French nonetheless.
Accordingly, if we drop my questionable proofs & use Tad Szulc written & published affirmations, what are we left with?
-A French Chopin!
Tad Szulc own words in article at Paris section:
"Though an ardent Polish patriot, in France he used the French versions of his given names and traveled on a French passport, possibly to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents.(Footnote 28: A French passport used by Chopin is shown here . Tad Szulc writes (Chopin in Paris, p. 69): " the French granted him permission to stay in Paris indefinitely 'to be able to perfect his art'. Four years later, Frédéric became a French citizen and a French passport was issued to him on 1 August 1835. He is not known to have discussed his decision to change citizenship with anyone, including his father. It is unclear whether he did it to avoid renewing his Russian passport at the Russian embassy for patriotic reasons or simply as a matter of general convenience."(end of footnote 28)
Conclusion:
Although Mr. Szulc is only guessing the reason why Chopin became French in order to avoid having to renew his Russian passport at the Russian Embassy in Paris, while I say that Chopin did not have to "become" French because he was born French, the fact is that we both agree that Chopin got a French passport. Mr. Szulc is a respected writer & his book a valid verifiable secondary source, in which he wrote: Four years later, Frédéric became a French citizen.
I would think that should be enough to call him Polish-French composer, just put the source in (along with Encyclopedia Britannica, if you care to). Another alternate is to follow Nihil Novi's "Clearly the Polish Misplaced Pages made a mistake — which the English Misplaced Pages has avoided — in placing a nationality in the lead. " Dr. Dan (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
In view of the difficulties we have met until now, I would not stand in the way of that alternative, which should not ruffle the feathers of the Polish Eagle. --Frania W. (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. I'm more concerned with correctly describing his ethnicity, rather than his citizenship. That information about his French citizenship, and how he acquired it, certainly belongs in the article. My point being that if Chopin had been Anglo-Dutch he could have also acquired French citizenship. He was Polish-French and he acquired French citizenship. By now everyone should understand the reasons when and how he acquired French citizenship. By now everyone should understand that he emigrated, by choice, to France and spent almost half of his life there. Eventually this charade will come to a close, and I'm not worried about ruffling any feathers, of any nationalist stripe, be they French, Polish, or Khoikhoi. Think about it. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Ethnicity? I thought that we were talking about nationality and citizenship. Anyway if you really want to go into that, then it's quite clear that the only ethnic group with which Chopin really identified himself, were Poles. Dr. Loosmark10:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
We're talking about a lot of things. Do you understand the definitions of nationality and ethnicity as the terms are used in the English language? Are you saying that a Pole, one with both parents being of Polish nationality/ethnicity would lose that quality upon becoming a citizen of New Zealand? And it's simply ridiculous and presumptuous to state "it's quite clear that the only ethnic group with which Chopin really identified himself, were Poles."
Unfortunately I think you, and like minded individuals, are confusing how you identify this composer rather than how Chopin did himself. We're treading on eggshells when we begin to enter into the mind of someone who was born two hundred years ago. And this, despite the lack of evidence that Chopin somehow refuted his father's French heritage. Do remember he emigrated to the country of his father's birth. Not to Italy, Great Britain, Germany, or Austria. He probably could have had the illustrious, yet semi-tragic (largely do to his poor health) career in a multitude of other countries. Yet he chose "La Patrie" of his Père, and after emigrating there spent almost half of his life there. French father, Polish mother = "French-Polish"; not wanting to hurt any feelings "because he identified himself only with the Polish ethnic group", according to you, we're going along with "Polish-French". Dr. Dan (talk) 18:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Why do you equal "French not in lead" => "article says Chopin's father is not French" => "Chopin had nothing French" => "refuting Chopin's nationality, heritage, whatever" is really beyond me. Does the article about Sean Lennon say that he "refute(d)" the nationality of his father, just because the lead of article says that Sean is an American singer, songwriter, musician, guitarist and actor!? I don't think so. And neither do you. Really Dan, you are making a tempest in a teapot. Dr. Loosmark18:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
No, Dr. Loosmark, Dr. Dan is not making a "tempest in a teapot", and the parallel Sean Lennon // Frédéric Chopin does not work. Sean Lennon was born in the United States and is an American citizen, considered only American by US law, unless there is an accord between the United States & his father's country of origin to also recognise Sean as a British citizen. Frédéric Chopin was born in the Duchy of Warsaw of a French father, and fell under the French civil code of the time, which made him a Frenchman at birth, while respecting his other nationality. That's why not mentioning Chopin's French nationality together with his Polish one is like acknowledging one of the Earth's hemisphere & denying the existence of the other, which would create a "tempest" within the scientific community. --Frania W. (talk) 02:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Frania, have you actually looked up British and U.S. citizenship law? Both countries do recognize dual citizenship. And "Before 1983, as a general rule British nationality could only be transmitted from the father through one generation only, and parents were required to be married. See History of British nationality law." Sean Lennon's father John Lennon was British, Sean's parents were married (on 20 March 1969), and Sean was born before 1983 (9 October 1975). Hence, if Sean Lennon claims British citizenship, there is every reason to think that it will be acknowledged by the country of his father's birth (the United Kingdom) and that it will be recognized as well by the country of Sean Lennon's own birth (the United States). Nihil novi (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Nihil novi, I did not know, that's why I wrote "unless there is an accord". Two countries may have agreements with each other that they do not have with others. For instance, it used to be that France accepted the dual citizenship of French-American MEN (born a Frenchman, always a Frenchman), not women, while the US did not recognise dual citizenship at all. Since some time in the 1970s, the French law changed & Frenchwomen who become citizens of another country do not lose their French citizenship. A later agreement between France & the US recognised dual citizenship, but the agreement was not applied retroactively to cover those (which happened to the Frenchwomen) who had become US citizens before that date. Which means that you can have close members of the same family who have dual citizenship, while others do not. There is no blanket law covering every country & any two countries. Each country has its own laws, then any two countries their own agreements between each other... It can get rather complicated.
That's why with Chopin father & son, one born in France, the other in Poland of a French father, both of them remained French all their life. There was a privilege in being born a man. The reason was because a Frenchman had to do his military service, and once that had been done, France could not deny him French national/citizenship ever, while they could spare the women since they did not go into the army anyway (I do not know when the "military service" thing came into play, probably in the 19th century with Napoléon). Now the women are treated equally, and military service is a thing of the past with the French Army made up only of volunteers. (Have to go, not taking time to correct my typos. My apologies if there are some. They are an invaluable gift!)
Well, let's see: has Sean Lennon claimed his British passport? No. Did Chopin claim his French passport? Yes. Do we have any WP:RS which say Lennon is entitled to a British passport? No. Do we have any WP:RS which say Chopin was entitled to a French passport? Yes. Has Lennon chosen to move to Britain and live almost half his life there? No. Did Chopin chose to move to France and live almost half his life there? Yes. And does Lennon's mother have British citizenship? No. Did Chopin's mother have French citizenship? Yes. Not quite the same, are they? Varsovian (talk) 07:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
So all the other Poles of the Great Emigration who also moved to France in the wake of the November 1830 Uprising — did they move there because they had a French parent or thought themselves French? They could, after all, as our learned colleague argues (but does he have a WP:RS for this?), have lived anywhere else that they wanted to. Nihil novi (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
If such person had French parents, was born French and had French passports, he/she would be at least partly French (although obviously not purely French). Your comment about WP:RS suggests that you need to read WP:RS: nobody is likely to challenge that Chopin could not have lived in the USA had he so chosen. Varsovian (talk) 09:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Going back to margin as on my screen the discussion is at almost one word per line...
Any Pole in the situation of Frédéric Chopin, i.e. born in Poland of French parents as is mentioned on Chopin's French paasport, any such Pole would have been treated exactly as Chopin was, issued a French passport. For the others, they would have had to renew their Russian passport or register with the French government as refugees, which is what Chopin's father was writing to him in his September 1834 letter.
As for Sean Lennon, I am not getting into his case as the case of Frédéric Chopin is taking much of my time and, when it's over, I shall sit to a cup of tea, if there is any left in the teapot, although I think that I will more likely have a glass of champagne.
That would depend on where the country that the person is born in follows jus sanguinis or jus soli. Interestingly Poland follows jus sanguinis, which means that a child born in Poland does not become Polish unless at least one of its parents is eligible for a Polish passport. Do we have a WP:RS which tells us that Chopin's mother was eligible for a Polish passport? Not that we really need one: nobody is likely to argue that Chopin was not Polish. It's just a pity that some editors try to argue that having two French parents, choosing to apply for French passports and choosing to live about half his life in France mean that Chopin was not partly French but was actually 100% Polish. Varsovian (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Then that only goes to prove how utterly useless are passports for determining a nationality of a person. Please try to find a reliable source, (preferably written by a respectful author) which claims that Chopin's mother was French. Until then there is nothing much to discuss, his mother was 100% Polish. Dr. Loosmark14:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Varsovian could please translate the relevant passage for those of us who don't understand French? Thank you. Dr. Loosmark15:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Professeur Emmanuel Langavant's work on the French nationality of Frédéric Chopin according to Civil Code in effect in the Duchy of Warsaw at time of Chopin's birth
English translation in italics after each paragraph:
Nationalité de Chopin
2 ) En ce qui concerne la nationalité, celle-ci est accordée par l’état en fonction de deux considérations possibles :
la nationalité des parents, et le plus souvent du père, que I on appelle le « jus sanguinis »,
la naissance sur le territoire d'un état, indépendamment de la nationalité des parents, c'est le « jus soli ».
Chopin's nationality:
2) In regards nationality, it is granted by the State according to two possible considerations:
the parents’ nationality, and most often that of the father, called « jus soli »,
birth on the territory of a state, independently of the parents’ nationality, which is "jus soli".
Autrefois, dans le Code Napoléon de 1804. seule comptait l'acquisition par le sang, car le « jus soli » ne sera reconnu qu'à l'époque récente dans notre Droit ( 1945 ).
In the past, in the 1804 Code Napoléon, only that acquired by the blood, because "jus soli" will be recognized only in 1945 in our Rightlaw (French Civil Code)
Lors d'un voyage de CHOPIN a Londres, celui-ci obtint, le 7 juillet 1837. un passeport délivré par les autorités françaises. On y lit qu'il a les « yeux gris-bleus » ( ce qui est pour le moins inattendu, si l'on songe au portrait du compositeur par DELACROIX ), et ce passeport porte la mention « issu de parents français ».
For a trip he was to undertake to London, CHOPIN obtained a passport delivered by the French authorities on 7 July 1837. One can read that he had "gray-blue eyes" (which is rather unexpected if we think of Delacroix’s portrait of the composer), and this passport bears the mention “born of French parents”.
Il a été prétendu que CHOPIN avait, par cette indication, tenté d'esquiver le contrôle de la Police sur le voyage d'un étranger, d'un émigré polonais suspect d'antipathie contre le Tsar.
It has been alleged that CHOPIN had, by that indication, attempted to avoid Police control on the tripjourney to a foreign country, by a Polish émigré antipatheticsuspected of antipathy to the Tsar.
En fait ce passeport décrit l'exact état de Droit.
In fact, this passport describes exactly the State of Right (state of the law) .
Le Code Civil confère à la condition masculine une force attractive, quant à la nationalité.
The Civil Code awards the masculine condition an attractive force as far as nationality is concerned.
art. 10 : « Tout enfant né d'un Français à l'étranger est Français ».
Article 10 : « Any child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French.. »
Or, l'acte de baptême de Frédéric-François CHOPIN ( qui fera toujours figurer les deux F dans sa signature ) mentionne qu'il est né du sieur Nicolas CHOPPEN ( sic ), Français ( « Gali », dans le texte rédigé en latin ).
Now, the baptismal certificate of Frédéric-François Chopin (who will always show both F in his signature) mentions that he is born of Sire ("sieur" is either '"sire" or modern "Mr.") Nicolas CHOPPEN (sic), French (“Gali”, in the text redactedwritten in Latin.(FW's comment: a misspelling of "Galli" -from "Gallus"-, it should have two *l*)
« Je, susnommé Jozef MORAWSKI. vicaire de la Paroisse de Brochow, ai accompli la cérémonie du baptême sur un enfant ondoyé sous le double prénom de Frédéric-François, né le 22 février du sieur Nicolas CHOPPEN, Français, et de dame Justyna née KRYZANOWSKA, époux légitimes. Parrain et Marraine : le sieur Francis-zek GREMBECKI, du village de Cépliny et la gracieuse demoiselle Anna SKARBEK, comtesse de Zelazowa-Wola ».
« I, the above-mentionedabove-named Jozef MORAWSKI, vicaryvicar? curate? (FW's comment: "vicaire" in French translation, checking in dictionary, "vicaire" is the "curate of a parish") in the Parish of Brochow, have accomplished the baptism ceremony on a child baptised under the double first names of Frédéric-François, born on 22 February ofto sire Nicolas CHOPPEN, French, and ofto dame (this was written at the beginning of the 19th century not in modern US) Justyna née KRYZANOWSKA, legitimate spouses. Godfather and Godmother: sire Franciszek GREMBECKI, from the village of Cépliny and gracious demoiselle Anna SKARBEK, countess of Zelazowa Wola.” (FW's comment: I consider the question for having left sire dame demoiselle instead of putting the modern Mr. Mrs. Miss as having no significance vis-à-vis the problem we are trying to resolve.)
On observera que les actes de baptême des filles ne comportent pas cette mention de nationalité, que Nicolas a estimé par contre importante dans l'acte d'un garçon.
It must be observed that the daughters’ baptisms do not make mention of nationality, which Nicolas estimatedregarded, on the other hand, (my choice of words as good as yours) important in the certificate of a boy.
La nationalité de la mère importe peu, et ce d'autant plus que l'article 12 déclare :
- « L'étrangère qui a épousé un Français suivra la condition de son mari », de sorte que Justyna KRYZANOWSKA. par son mariage à Brochow, en 1806 avec Nicolas CHOPIN, changeait ipso facto de nationalité. Frédéric est donc bien issu de deux parents français.
The nationality of the mother has little importance, and this, more especially, since Article 12 declares :
The foreign woman who has married a Frenchman will follow her husband’s condition”, so that Justyna KRYZANOWSKA, by her marriage to Nicolas CHOPIN, in Brochow, in 1806, changed ipso facto of nationality. Frédéric is thus issued of = born of two French parents.
Mais, n'y avait-il pas lieu à double nationalité, du fait de la naissance de CHOPIN sur le territoire polonais ? Non, puisque, nous l'avons dit, le « jus soli » n'est pas reconnu à l'époque, et que, de surcroît, le Droit qui s'applique au Grand-Duché de Varsovie où résidait Nicolas, n'est autre que le Code civil français !
But, was not this a case of double nationality, by the fact that CHOPIN was born on Polish territory ? No, because, we said, that the "jus soli" was not recognised at the time, and that, the Right (Law) that was applied to the Duchy of Warsaw where Nicolas lived was none other than the French Civil Code.
En effet, conformément au Traité de Tilsitt du 7 juillet 1807, scellant pour un temps la paix entre ALEXANDRE de Russie et NAPOLEON 1er, la Prusse, démantelée, cédait le Grand-Duché de Varsovie à Frédéric-Auguste de Saxe.
Indeed, in conformity with the Treaty of Tilsitt of 7 July 1807, sealing for a time the peace between ALEXANDER of Russia and NAPOLEON I, Prussia, dismantled, ceded the Duchy of Warsaw to Frederick-August of Saxony.
De Dresde, NAPOLEON octroyait au Grand-Duché, le 22 juillet, un statut constitutionnel publié au Moniteur de l’empire du 6 août suivant, et surtout, il y introduisait le récent Code civil français !
From Dresden, on 22 July, NAPOLEON granted the Duchy a constitutional statute published in the Moniteur de l’empire the following 6 August, and moreover, he was inserting into it the recent French Civil Code!
Cet ensemble politico-juridique avait pour effet de faire renaître un embryon de Pologne, certes bien en-deçà des espoirs que les Polonais plaçaient en NAPOLEON, mais qui les conduisit à le soutenir de plus belle ( attitude illustrée par la mort du Maréchal PONIATOWSKI à la bataille de Leipzig ) et. d'autre part, de redonner aux Polonais une nationalité certes, mais fondée sur les dispositions du Code Napoléon.
This politico-juridico ensemble had for effect to give birth to an embryo of Poland, assuredly well within the hopes the Poles were placing in NAPOLEON, but which made them support him even more (an attitude illustrated by the death of Marshal PONIATOWSKI at the battle of Leipzig) and, on the other hand, indeed, gave the Poles a nationality, but founded on the dispositions of the Napoléon Code.
Thank you for the translation. In a few places, I've put in brackets suggestions for more accurate English renderings. Perhaps an experienced French-to-English translator could help us out? Nihil novi (talk) 05:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd appreciate more information about the author of the article, Emmanuel Langavant. I could not find him in the French Misplaced Pages. Nihil novi (talk) 05:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Nihil novi: I did that translation in one "coup de plume" as I could not spend hours on it. Didn't re-read myself. Am going thru your suggestions & will leave in bold the changes you suggested to my original translation. Also leaving comments within the text.
Langavant is not in Misplaced Pages, will bring to you what I have on him when I have more time for it.
Mr. Langavant is not the only person who has brought up the French nationality of Chopin. He mentions others who have, and there are others not mentioned by him who have, but I really do not have the time to spend my days and nights on a something -digging out all these sources- that will automatically be rejected, no matter what.
Those sources won't always be rejected. Eventually certain editors will have to concede that their position is untenable. Varsovian (talk) 11:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Hope you excuse an accidental visitor for interfering into the dicussion. The analysis of the situation from French legal point of view seems correct, but is it relevant enough?
1. French legal system was not the only legal system under which Chopin's family lived. Would autorities of Congress Poland consider young Frederic a Frenchmen, i.e. a foreigner when he studied in Warsaw in 1820s? Why their legal point of view is not taken into the analysys? Was France the only country in Europe having some kind of law, or is French law somehow special?
2. Legal definition of nationality was defineently not the only one, or even not the most important for people of early 19th century Europe. There was no German state back then, yet somehow some people were defining themselves and were defined by others as Germans
3. So far you proved Chopin was probably considered egligible for French citizenship ("French") by French authorities of the era.
4. Yet this fact is definetly not the only one defining his nationality, and the question remains whether it is important enough to describe it as 'Polish-French' or similar
5. In other words the major problem here seems to be relevance, not factuality
Born in 1810 in the Duchy of Warsaw, where the legal system of the Code Napoléon was in effect, Chopin was born French because his father was French. What happened afterward to the Duchy of Warsaw has no incidence on the fact that Chopin was born French as his French nationality was a matter that concerned the French, not the Poles, not the Pope, not the Russians, not the Prussians, not the Austrians, only the French, which is the reason why Chopin was able to get a French passport & not get an extension of his Russian one, otherwise, he would have had to register as a "political refugee" in France.
To your question: "Would autorities of Congress Poland consider young Frederic a Frenchmen, i.e. a foreigner when he studied in Warsaw in 1820s?"
Authorities of Congress Poland considered Chopin to be a Pole, not a foreigner, so he was a Polish student in Warsaw. As I said earlier, his French nationality was a matter between him & the French whose juridic Code happened to be the one in effect in the Duchy of Warsaw at time of his birth. Whatever happened to the Duchy & the rest of Poland afterward did not change anything for Chopin (or for those who may have been in the same case, i.e. born of a French father outside of France), his baptismal register with mention of his father being French did not change, the fact that he was born of a French father did not change. When he travelled outside Poland, like all Poles, he had to travel with a Russian passport (or, as the case of other Poles may have been, a Prussian or a Austrian one, depending which part of Poland was concerned). The difference with Chopin and others who were born of a French father is that the French, because of the Code Napoléon, considered them to also be French, and this was not taking away their Polish nationality, simply recognising them as French. Consequently, when after arriving in France Chopin was faced with the choices given above, one of them being the extension of his Russian passport at the Russian Embassy in Paris, which he refused to do, he was able to obtain a French passport, as a Frenchman, with mention made on his passport that he was born of French parents. Please note that no more than now, there was no "European Code", nor "international law" on nationality/citizenship.
To your statement: "So far you proved Chopin was probably considered egligible for French citizenship ("French") by French authorities of the era."
So far, I have said that Chopin was born a French national because that is what the 1804 French Civil Code said and still says, "jus sanguinis" ("right of blood") being the determining factor in establishing nationality of a newborn, so Chopin did not fall under "being eligible for French citizenship" because, even born outside of France, he was born French, just as if he had been born in France. Now, since 1945, the French Civil Code determines nationality on both "jus sanguinis" and "jus soli".
I personally do not see where there is a problem saying the facts as they are. I did not make the law and I am not rewriting history. The Duchy of Warsaw was governed under the 1804 French Civil Code at the time of Chopin's birth, and Poland remained under it throughout the 19th century.
Frania, if you wish to summarize Professor Langavant's argument in an in-line note in the "Paris" section, as I have previously suggested, this will make his view available to the article's readers. Considerations that may have induced the French government to issue Chopin a French passport are of interest. But the view that Chopin was French (or even French-Polish or Polish-French) is not currently the prevailing view in the world and should not be presented as such in the article's lead. The French government's attitude toward Chopin in the 1830s and '40s — whatever exactly it was, which is not made definitively clear by the several documents that the Professor adduces — is not necessarily binding on the rest of the world in the 19th, 20th or 21st centuries. Nihil novi (talk) 07:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I will put something to that effect, which, no doubt will be reverted by the "Polish-Pole only" Chopin Society as soon as it appears. The fact that something "is not currently the prevailing view in the world" has always puzzled me & brings to my mind the historical time of Galileo & the Inquisition. How wrong was he & how right they were!
I am also puzzled by the fact that Misplaced Pages has no problem recognising without the batting of an eye the nationality of other individuals born outside of France of a French father as having the nationality of the country of their birth and that of France, for instance:
Alfred Cortot, "a Franco-Swiss pianist and conductor" Born in Nyon in the French-speaking part of Switzerland to a French father and a Swiss mother...", is in the exact same case as Chopin, except for the country of his birth:
born in Switzerland
French father
Swiss mother
or:
Marie Curie, "a physicist and chemist of Polish upbringing and subsequent French citizenship" (what are "Polish upbringing" & "subsequent French citizenship" supposed to mean? - nonetheless mentioned in the article.)
In the above two cases, what permits us to say that Alfred Cortot is "Franco-Swiss" and Marie Curie of "Polish upbringing and subsequent French citizenship"? Is anyone fighting tooth & nail to make Alfred Cortot only Swiss? In both cases, should not a "reference needed" be attached to such statements? Because we are taking for granted that Alfred Cortot was "Franco-Swiss" & the "subsequent French citizenship" of Mme Curie - not a single footnote to that effect.
To summarize, why such resistance recognising Chopin's French nationality when autommatically granted to others in similar circumstances? -
Alfred Cortot: the reality of the fact that permits Misplaced Pages to say that he was Franco-Swiss is that tiny little sentence in the Code Napoléon: "A child born outside of France of a French father is French."
Another splendid example:
Guillaume Apollinaire, 'Wilhelm Albert Włodzimierz Apolinary Kostrowicki, known as Guillaume Apollinaire (French pronunciation: ; Rome, August 26, 1880–November 9, 1918, Paris) was a French poet, playwright and art critic born in Italy to a Polish mother.
born in Italy
(probable) Italian father
Polish mother
What exactly, with no source - primary, secondary or tertiary - no explicative footnote, no mention of ever obtaining French citizenship and, aside from "the prevailing view in the world", allows Misplaced Pages to state that Guillaume Apollinaire was French?
Bravo Frania! Well summarized. Incidentally the Polish Misplaced Pages article on Guillaume Apollinaire states in its lead, "francuski poeta polskiego pochodzenia" (French poet of Polish origin), with no mention of any of his other ancestry at all. Hmm? As for your question, "why such resistance recognising Chopin's French nationality when autommatically granted to others in similar circumstances? " By now, that can only be a rhetorical question. I think Galileo's theories and the work of the Inquisition, and the contemporary "world view" of those issues, are closer than you think to the heart of this matter being discussed. In any case, I'm pleased that Nihil has become more courteous towards you. His earlier condescending and mocking demeanor were very inappropriate. So that's good. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Nationality
Nationality is a curious concept. It is not synonymous with citizenship. The lead of the English Misplaced Pages article on Albert Einstein gives no nationality or citizenship. Einstein was German by birth; as a teen, he renounced German citizenship in order not to serve in the military. He became a Swiss citizen, and later lived again and worked in Germany. After Nazism came to power, he moved to the United States and eventually became an American citizen. He was of Jewish descent and, though nonobservant, came to feel an increasing kinship, the more the Jews were persecuted.
Einstein wrote in 1918: "I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever."
Einstein also commented wryly: "If my theory of relativity proves to be correct, Germany will claim me a German, and France will claim me a citizen of the world. However, if it proves wrong, France will say I’m a German, and Germany will say that I’m a Jew."
Einstein said: "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
Einstein is difficult to pin down to a nationality not only because he spent substantial periods in various countries, but because he felt no need for a nationality. If he had a spiritual homeland, it was physics, which knows no nationality.
Why might the same not be said of Chopin? His principal domain of activity was music. The difference, though, is that Chopin's music is perceived universally as a Polish music. He is, indeed, credited with having invented national music. According to the Misplaced Pages Chopin article:
Zdzisław Jachimecki notes that "Chopin at every step demonstrated his Polish spirit — in the hundreds of letters that he wrote in Polish, in his attitude to Paris' émigrés, in his negative view of all that bore the official stamp of the powers that occupied Poland." Likewise Chopin composed music to accompany Polish texts but never musically illustrated a single French or German text, even though he numbered among his friends several great French and German poets.
According to Arthur Hedley, Chopin "found within himself and in the tragic story of Poland the chief sources of his inspiration. The theme of Poland's glories and sufferings was constantly before him, and he transmuted the primitive rhythms and melodies of his youth into enduring art forms."
In asserting his own Polishness, Chopin, according to Jachimecki, exerted "a tremendous influence the nationalization of the work of numerous later composers, who have often personally — like the Czech, Smetana and Norway's Grieg — confirmed this opinion..."
That is why the world regards Chopin as Polish, and that is why he must be so described in the lead of the "Chopin" article. Citizenship and passports really have nothing to do with it. In his lifetime, there was no sovereign Poland on the map of Europe; yet Chopin was a Pole, first, last and always. Nihil novi (talk) 01:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
First, Winston Churchill, then Sean Lennon, now Albert Einstein. You guys can really get a laugh out of me. For all this blather about Einstein, please note that the quote you're using possibly came from here , and that the info box at the Albert Einstein info box states that his ethnicity is Jewish. So then Nihil novi, according to presumably the "world view" expressed by Zdzisław Jachimecki, who notes that "Chopin at every step demonstrated his Polish spirit", the world regards Chopin as Polish. You bring in Einstein into the fray and ask us "Why might the same not be said of Chopin"? I'll answer with Einstein, "I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever." So why indeed does Chopin require the special designation as a Pole? Why then is his French component not relevant? Do we have Chopin stating, "I am by heritage a Pole, by citizenship a Frenchman, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever?" Where's the analogy of Chopin ethnicity to Einstein's remarks? Does Chopin negate his paternity anywhere at all? Anywhere? Again you note that Jachimecki notes that Chopin wrote hundreds of letters in Polish. And his point and your point is what? He wrote hundreds of letters in French too (many to his French father). As for his sympathy or empathy for Poland's plight there can be no doubt, and Lord Byron had a similar viewpoint concerning Greece, yet it didn't make him Greek. The fact is that Chopin was ethnically half French and half Polish, emigrated to France and lived half of his life there. Nobody is denying his association with Poland, the last time I checked. But the last time I checked there seems to be an unusual necessity to deny those facts concerning his ethnicity and to now do so on the basis of the "world's" view of Chopin. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
As I wrote earlier, the sentence "A child born outside of France of a French father is French" means that the child is as French as any French child born on French soil. In fact, at the time of Chopin's birth, having a French father was the only requirement to be French, as only jus sanguinis was required, not jus soli.
I have never met such stubborness as in the case of Frédéric François Chopin to have him recognised as a Frenchman as well as a Pole. No matter what "proof" or "similar cases" I bring to this discussion, it is automatically rejected.
Using only one of the examples I gave, please explain to me what the difference is between an Alfred Cortot born in Switzerland, of a French father & a Swiss mother, being a Franco-Swiss, and Frédéric François Chopin born in Poland, of a French father & a Polish mother, and not being a Franco-Pole, since the same French Civil Code applied to them.
What people of the rest of the world in any century may think of that French nationality of Chopin is not of their concern, they are not juridically trained in French law to say whom France should consider one of its own: the French Civil Code was in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw, and the Poles kept it for over a century, through the various debacles, Kingdom, Republic, Russian domination, Prussian invasion etc. they went through all the way until after WWI.
What is obvious to me is that the Poles have decided to deny any of France's part in Chopin's heritage & life. To them, he is only a Pole & the French can be damned. Because of the tragedies that Poland suffered, France never raised a voice regarding Chopin's French nationality. France has bent over backward by courtesy to the Poles. But I do not see what good it is to Chopin himself to deny him a part of himself. I am only bringing to this discussion the very pieces of paper that Chopin himself used, copy of a baptismal register, a passport, the French Civil Code, which enabled him to spend the second part of his life in France as if he had been born there, and to travel outside of France without having to bother with the Russians. These are the facts.
"The rest of the world not juridically trained in French law to say whom France should consider one of its own." Chopin is not only France's; he belongs to the world at large, which considers him Polish.
"The French Civil Code... enabled him to spend the second part of his life in France as if he had been born there..." Many Poles lived in France, though they did not have a French parent. Nihil novi (talk) 03:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Alfred Cortot is an equally simple issue. Because his father was French and his mother was Swiss he is appropriately called "Franco-Swiss" (despite being born in Switzerland). Had both of his parents been one or the other he'd be one or the other. Btw, Cortot's renditions of Chopin remain very exquisite, even with the great technological advances made in the recording industry since his heyday. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I would be the last person in the world to deny Chopin his "Polishness"; by the same token, I do not want his "Frenchness" to be denied.
Yes, many Poles lived in France at the time Chopin did but, unless they were also born of a French father, they had to register as political refugees. At one time in their life, they may also have returned to Poland and some of them may even have ended as "political refugees" in that part of the world . So, I would not make light of Chopin's "French papers", which may have spared him such a tragic end.
--Frania W. (talk) 04:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
In the life time of Chopin, while "germanification" & "russification" were taking place, Polish nationality was never denied, the Poles remained Poles, although travelling on the passport of their occupiers. I do not have time right to bring out sources but will as soon as I have a couple of hours at hand.
It is not a question of "dual citizenship" being recongnised by one or the other or the whole world, it is a question of the country, like France in this instance, recognising one child born outside of France as one of its own. Cases: Chopin, Cortot and others. --Frania W. (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Nihil your "compromise" has a couple of problems. Even before the Soviet era, the Russian Empire was comprised of many nationalities or ethnicities, other than Russians. Polish people lived in Russia, Prussia, and Austria. No Poland existed, but the Polish nation (ethnicity/nationality) was not extinguished. We also know that after the various uprisings, an intensified policy of Russification was implemented in Poland and in other non-Russian parts of their empire. But since all of us seem to be intent on splitting hairs, the fact is that Chopin was born in the Duchy of Warsaw, not Russia. That Russian thing happened a little earlier for a short time, and a little later for a long time. So let's forget dual citizenship and civil codes for a moment and get back to compromising somehow. I noticed you're fond of Christopher Kasparek. How about..."Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent". Since not many people other than ourselves seem to care about this, we can look at my suggestion as a true compromise, rather than a sarcastic one, fix the lead, and move on to other arenas. Dr. Dan (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
There is no assuming to do in the case of Chopin: The Poles remained Poles but had to travel on a Russian passport, or on a "German" one.
As a compromise, I immediately vote YES for this "Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent". Then a couple of sentences with footnote can explain the "French" descent part with people interpreting it as they understand it. Some will see only the "Polish-born", others will say to themselves "oh, but he was also French!", and we leave it at that. --Frania W. (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
As much as I love the Poles (please take note of my name...) I must say that they are a stubborn bunch who love to complicate simple stuff... I also recognise why they are so stubborn, throughout their history, they had to be - and Chopin is their "beacon of light" -, which does not change the fact that he was born also a little Frenchman. That is simple enough. --Frania W. (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
"Polish with a French father and a French mother" is more accurate. Unfortunately it's unacceptable to Polish editors. Varsovian (talk) 08:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
If at the time of her marriage to Onassis, the Civil Code of Greece said so, then she did. Had she married a Frenchman, she would have become French, because of the French Civil Code. --Frania W. (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I see that the discussion on the francization of Chopin is still in progress, unfortunately I don't see any new interesting argument(s). But well something interesting did emerge in the discussion (thanks Frania) and namely the fact that Maria Skłodowska is called Marie Curie on wikipedia. I propose to change that as soon as possible. In my opinion the francization doesn't make too much sense, I mean one can still understand that "Napoleone Buonaparte" became "Napoleon Bonaparte", but come on "Marie Curie" is a bit too much. Let's use correct names please, it will improve the accuracy of wikipedia. Dr. Loosmark02:48, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Loosmark, the discussion of Chopin's heritage is still in progress. It has nothing to do with the "francization" (sic) of Chopin, his father took care of that matter long ago. Some two hundred years ago. And how does the "Petit Caporal" have any relevance to this question? Napoleon wasn't French, but became Emperor of France. Like Pilsudski, who wasn't Polish and became Marshal of Poland. Both of them, unlike Chopin, who was Polish-French and ultimately may have a greater positive and long lasting effect upon humanity than the other two, down the road. Anyway, you recently said that we're not that far apart on this question concerning Chopin . How do you like my compromise, "Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent"? When Rlevse stated, for the second time, "Polish with a French father works too. Amazing how much time wikipedians spend on simple stuff", she failed to understand that the alternative, "French with a Polish mother", doesn't work at all for Polish Wikipedians. That assertion is in complete juxtaposition of "how the world views "Szopen". At times like these it behooves one to read How to deal with Poles again. This tidbit was created by Polish Wikipedians, not created by any hostile groups with an anti-Polish bias. Perhaps it puts a lot of things into perspective. Once again, does my compromise work for those involved parties here? Would like to hear the pros and cons of it. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Don't you people have anything better to do? We already say in the article that he was Polish with a French father, don't we? What on earth is there to keep arguing about?--Kotniski (talk) 07:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
It is interesting that Marie Skłodowska-Curie comes up (I'd prefer her article use the name I just did but it seems that WP policy is against me on that one). She is described as "of Polish upbringing and subsequent French citizenship." I wonder if this might be the solution for Chopin. It is not quite factually correct (Chopin had French citizenship from birth) but might be a compromise position. Any thoughts? Varsovian (talk) 08:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Well if it's not factually correct, then we can't very well use it. What's wrong with the wording we have at the moment? Do we want to mention his French father in the same sentence we mention that he was Polish? I'd like to do that, though I'm not sure how to word it in the msot natural way.--Kotniski (talk) 08:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
By the time Fryderyk Chopin was born in 1810, his father had been living in Poland, and subsequently in former Polish territory, for 23 years, and had taken part in the 1794 Kościuszko Uprising against Russia and Prussia. Was the father not by 1810 a citizen of the land, in its various political permutations?
That phrase wouldn't take into account the fact that Chopin's mother was French. Or the fact that Chopin himself was born French. Or the fact that he later used his French citizenship to get a French passport to use when he was traveling in Europe. Or the fact that he lived in France as a Frenchman, not as a Pole. Varsovian (talk) 09:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
After 23 years, Nicolas Chopin may have felt himself a "citizen of the land", but that did not keep him from having mention of his French nationality included in the church record of his son's baptism.
Nowhere have I ever read that Nicolas Chopin asked to become a Polish citizen, or that he renounced his French nationality/citizenship, and he never did since "born of French parents" is written on his son's 1837 passport.
As I kept saying when I was taking part in these discussions, citizenship isn't really something that greatly concerns us (not for the purposes of the lead, anyway, since sources are pretty much exclusively silent on the matter). There was probably no such thing as Polish citizenship at that time, and what we may know about the then embryonic concept of French "citizenship" as it may apply to F.C. tells us interesting things about the French legal system, but not about Chopin. Does Varosovian have sources for any of the statements made in his last post?--Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Why do you keep asking and asking and asking for sources? We know that Chopin used a French passport because we have a copy of it (and WP:RS confirming that he applied for it). We know that his mother was French at the time of his birth because we have the article by Langavant and the 1804 Code Napoléon, we don't know if she gave up her Polish citizenship (I would very much expect that she didn't but we have no WP:RS that confirm that). We know that Chopin lived in France as a Frenchman because he took his French passport and did not register as a refugee. I hear for the first time that the elder Chopin had Polish citizenship, so we have any sources for that? And do we have any sources which in any way link present day Polish law to the law >200 years ago? Varsovian (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
No, we should hardly be concerned about the law at all. Probably Chopin was legally a French citizen (or something of similar meaning) for all his life, but so what? We can certainly mention it the article if we can find a reliable source for it (I'm not sure that this Langavant's writings qualify), but that doesn't make it in any way incorrect or misleading to describe Chopin as a Polish composer with a French father.--Kotniski (talk) 12:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
That description is certainly incomplete. A complete description would be "a Polish composer who had a French father, a French mother , French citizenship from birth and a French passport which he used to travel round Europe." As that is more than a little verbose, how about we just call him "a Polish-French composer"? Varsovian (talk) 12:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
"A Polish composer who had a French father" is what I want to write. Everything you write after that is original research (and I don't believe you're serious about describing his mother as French). Well, except the passport, which we also mention in the article with about the amount of prominence it deserves.--Kotniski (talk) 12:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Would you say that facsimile of Chopin baptismal record & 1837 passport are fake? Would you deny that the 1804 Code Napoléon applied to the Duchy of Warsaw? I am sure that you can find that one in any book on the history of Poland. Besides, no one seems to deny that Frédéric Chopin was born in Poland, of a French father. As I asked above, why then, in the same circumstances of birth, the Franco-Swiss nationality is given to Alfred Cortot, while Polih-French is denied Frédéric Chopin? Same circumstances, same Civil Code... same Misplaced Pages. Because what cannot be accepted in Frédéric Chopin's case should not be in Alfred Cortot who should be "Swiss, born of a French father". --Frania W. (talk) 16:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Switzerland is a confederation consisting of many French speaking Cantos. Let's not mix apples and oranges please. Dr. Loosmark19:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Dr. Loosmark, does "Franco-Swiss" mean "born in the French-speaking part of Switzerland" or "French and Swiss"? If you check wiki-articles on people born in that part of Switzerland, in the "apples & oranges" cart, you will find also "pumpkins"! --Frania W. (talk) 22:04, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
"Joseph-Maurice Ravel... was a Frenchcomposer of Impressionist music... Ravel was born in the Basque town of Ciboure, France, near Biarritz, close to the border with Spain... His mother, Marie Delouart, was of Basque descent and grew up in Madrid, Spain, while his father, Joseph Ravel, was a Swiss inventor and industrialist from French Haute-Savoie..." Yet Misplaced Pages holds off from calling Ravel a "Basque–Spanish–Swiss–French composer." Nihil novi (talk) 03:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
(od) Nice try Nihil, but the Basque analogy doesn't apply to this case. Read up on Gorals, they also span different geographical areas. One can easily understand that a Goral born in Poland would be Polish, and one born in Ukraine or Slovakia wouldn't be Polish. If Ravels mother was of "Basque" descent, or later lived in Shanghai or Madrid, is of little importance. If I'm not mistaken, the Nazis tried to make Chopin "one of their own", by asserting that Nicholas Chopin was from Alsace-Lorraine (which by the way he was). Quit bouncing around other articles on Misplaced Pages and concerning yourself about what other Misplaced Pages articles are "holding off" on. Please see my new thread below and kindly state your opinion as to whether that will work or not. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, for now I'll stay on this side of your wordy section title.
Had the Polish-born Mlle Justyna Krzyżanowska married someone other than the French, Sieur Nicolas Chopin, the Polish composer Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin would not have been born.
Put more simply: Justyna Krzyżanowska + Nicolas Chopin = Fryderyk Franciszek/Frédéric François Chopin
Why don't we agree on the sentence suggested by Dr. Dan & close this discussion? :
"Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent".
Please note that not putting "Polish-French" is a big concession on my part, but with the lead sentence containing the "Polish-French descent", this may be a way to reach a consensus.
Calm down, Nihil, we all understand how important this is to you. Just open your mind for a moment and see how ridiculous your arguments are becoming. You bring up Ravel, nope, poor comparison. How about Jan Matejko? Czech father born in Roudnice, his mother half German, half Polish. Didn't master the Polish language either. But he's now "Polish", actually more so because no one really cares about him, and wants to argue the point. Do you? Would calling Matejko a Czech-Polish painter be true or would it upset you? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
If your Matejko analogy is meant as a guide in the Chopin instance, then you would seem to have demonstrated the absurdity of your own argument.
"Chopin was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent"
Cutting to the chase, other than it being suggested my me, what are the objections to this simplified solution? It's factual, not original research, and covers all of the bases and should suffice to not offend anyone's sensibilities. Focus on that, please, like a laser. Comments? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
