Revision as of 22:50, 19 May 2010 editATren (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers6,279 edits →Request that you remove your uncivil remarks: thank you← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:08, 20 May 2010 edit undoThe Wordsmith (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Administrators15,431 edits →Notice of page ban: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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: But wrong about (a) and (b). As for (c), if she believed that she wouldn't be saying (a) or (b) ] (]) 07:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC) | : But wrong about (a) and (b). As for (c), if she believed that she wouldn't be saying (a) or (b) ] (]) 07:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC) | ||
::"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". You know how it goes: "I'm arguing my case. You are disruptive. They are vandals". As Boris would say if religion wasn't opium for the masses: No matter how many beams are in SVs eyes, take care of your own mote first. <small>I now declare this the Louvre of overused cliches!</small> More seriously, we are the rational side. Climate change is complex, and further complicated by the "sceptics" persistent smoke and mirrors campaign. Non-scientifically trained people will no see who is right by looking at the primary literature, or by counting the number of scientists helplessly writhing on the floor in mirth after hearing a Ball argument. They will form their belief based on surface properties. SV very probably has no idea about climate change or the climate change debate. I doubt that she is even informed enough to be a "sceptic". She is a stickler for (some) Misplaced Pages rules, though, and will oppose you based on that no matter what this does to the real quality of the encyclopedia in this field. She has no way of measuring the later, but she believes (with a in no way unusual amount of hypocrisy, see the conjugation above) in the Misplaced Pages rules. So her behavior, while in some aspects counterproductive from our point of view, is reasonably rational by hers. ] in this context means accepting that people act on honestly mistaken beliefs ''even if'' they should know better. --] (]) 09:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC) | ::"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". You know how it goes: "I'm arguing my case. You are disruptive. They are vandals". As Boris would say if religion wasn't opium for the masses: No matter how many beams are in SVs eyes, take care of your own mote first. <small>I now declare this the Louvre of overused cliches!</small> More seriously, we are the rational side. Climate change is complex, and further complicated by the "sceptics" persistent smoke and mirrors campaign. Non-scientifically trained people will no see who is right by looking at the primary literature, or by counting the number of scientists helplessly writhing on the floor in mirth after hearing a Ball argument. They will form their belief based on surface properties. SV very probably has no idea about climate change or the climate change debate. I doubt that she is even informed enough to be a "sceptic". She is a stickler for (some) Misplaced Pages rules, though, and will oppose you based on that no matter what this does to the real quality of the encyclopedia in this field. She has no way of measuring the later, but she believes (with a in no way unusual amount of hypocrisy, see the conjugation above) in the Misplaced Pages rules. So her behavior, while in some aspects counterproductive from our point of view, is reasonably rational by hers. ] in this context means accepting that people act on honestly mistaken beliefs ''even if'' they should know better. --] (]) 09:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC) | ||
== Notice of page ban == | |||
Under ], I hereby inform you of the following result of the recent complaint about your edits: | |||
*''{{User|William M. Connolley}} is prohibited from editing the article ].'' | |||
This sanction may be appealed to myself, ] or ]. <span style="font-family:Courier New;font-size:3">]</span><sup>]</sup> 19:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:08, 20 May 2010
To speak to another with consideration, to appear before him with decency and humility, is to honour him; as signs of fear to offend. To speak to him rashly, to do anything before him obscenely, slovenly, impudently is to dishonour. Leviathan, X. User:William M. Connolley/For me/The naming of cats Googlebombing: Coton school UK
I "archive" (i.e. delete old stuff) quite aggressively (it makes up for my untidiness in real life). If you need to pull something back from the history, please do. Once. My Contribs • Blocks • Protects • Deletions • Block log • Count watchers • Edit count • WikiBlame I'm Number 11 |
The Holding Pen
Ocean acidification
On hold |
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A reader writes:
I'm not sure, but it sounds odd. You can beat me to it if you like William M. Connolley (talk) 18:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
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Your ArbCom userpage comment
Need to finish this off |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I haven't looked to see which arb was accused of being a "fool," but am curious how would "Stephen Bain should not be entrusted with anything more valuable than a ball of string" would be received. I'd like to know before I say that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC) |
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley
Ditto |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision is available in full at the link above. As a result of this case:
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold 22:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC) I'm am sorry to see that your adminship has been revoked. I believe that our circumstances are similar in a way. I too was once an admin and lost my tools mainly due to conflicts on articles related to the events surrounding the 9/11 attacks. I know that the vast majority of my content creation and all my FA's were done after I was desysopped...with that said I am hoping that we can still look forward to your wisdom and guidance in those areas you have so instrumental in and that you will continue to help us build as reliable a reference base as we can achieve. Best wishes to you!--MONGO 03:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I ask that you please accept my nomination to regain your administrative rights at RFA. 99.191.73.2 (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
InterestingHardly surprising that arbcom wants to keep their mess as far from view as possible. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk)
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Fools and their foolishness
Yes, it needs finishing |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Regarding , you are quite welcome to raise any of your concerns or points on my talk page. I'm quite open to constructive feedback, even if it's harsh or drastically opposed to my views or actions. I even promise not to seek a block if you call me a fool. However, if you call me Mungojerrie or make me listen to "Memory", it's war! :-) (If you prefer to keep everything together, we could easily have the same discussion at User talk:William M. Connolley/For me/Misc arbcomm-y stuff.) Vassyana (talk) 14:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Bozmo. I've cut my hair recently so we may not be too far opposed on that aspect (unless you now have long hair). As to expanding the page - that will come in time. I'm glad you (V) are watching but I'm afraid I've grown rather discouraged by arbcomms ability to learn, so I won't be in a hurry. That page is mostly for me, though you are free to ask questions there if you like and I'll probbaly answer. In the meantime, on the "fools" issue, User:William_M._Connolley/For_me/On_civility#Misc_arbcomm-y_stuff refers William M. Connolley (talk) 20:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
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Current
I just found this
Oh look: http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/web-iquette-for-climate-discussions/ Isn't that good? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- He used web-iquette for medical discussions as a guide. That reminds me of How Doctors Think which is a great work on how brilliant, well trained, experienced people can get things wrong every day. I wonder if there is a way to do the same thing. Ignignot (talk) 13:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Wondring aloud
I have to wonder if there isn't some deliberate foot dragging, given sentiments previously expressed by Arbcom and other insiders. Lt. Gen. Pedro Subramanian (talk) 22:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- Um. I missed the Raul stuff in August and now feel guilty about not expressing my sympathy (literally in this case :-(). Old score settling I suspect William M. Connolley (talk) 23:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- What Raul stuff in Aug? Email if you prefer. --BozMo talk 07:03, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- Nothing secret, just not common knowledge. It is off on some arbcomm-y type page; Raul dropping CU tools; I'd find the link except someone watching can probably find it quicker William M. Connolley (talk) 09:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Thermal underwear
Idealized greenhouse model, or the section below |
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May I ask a question? I stress that I am not trying to do any original research, but only want to improve the GW article by explaining what is fundamental to the AGW hypothesis. I don't think the current article really explains it very well. My question: I did some Googling and the Stefan-Boltzmann equation (or rather a derivative of it) seems to be fundamental. But there are two versions of it, as follows:
where alpha is albedo, S0 is a constant solar radiative flux (units W/m^2), T is temp in K, and sigma is a constant. The two sides of the equation both have units W/m^2. In the first equation e is 'emissivity' which is unitless and is the ratio of energy radiated by a particular material to energy radiated by a black body at the same temperature. I think of it as an 'underpants factor'. You have a black body throbbing with radiation, which will cool unless you keep it warm. So you put some underpants on it, to keep the cold out, i.e. stop it radiating so much. Hence CO2 and water vapour are like thermal underwear to keep the earth warm (if e is 100%, the temperature is about -18 deg C, for if you solve for e with current temperature, assume 15 deg C, you find e is about 60%). I am assuming e is constant whatever the temperature for exactly the same material, is that correct? In reality e will change as the material of the atmosphere changes (more CO2, or more vapour). In the second equation G is a number, units also W/m^2, which is a measure of the influence a factor has in altering the balance of incoming and outgoing energy in the Earth-atmosphere system. If you solve for G for 15 deg C, you get about 150 W/m^2. My puzzle is whether G is also constant, if for other reasons (e.g. change in solar radiation, change in albedo) the temperature changes. Intuitively it won't be constant. Why represent it this way? Apologise if I have misunderstood, and please correct any mistakes (I am quite new to this, but it is interesting). Again, I am not trying to do any research, just finding out some facts that could be put into layman's language and hopefully into the article. I think thermal underwear is a better analogy than greenhouses, e.g. HistorianofScience (talk) 11:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Fine. Writing it all out is quicker than finding it, so... simplifying, the sun shines 4S units on the uniform earth (and since the area of a circle is 1/4 the area of a corresponding sphere the 4 drops out), which is a black body (forget albedo for the moment, it makes no real difference). The atmosphere is transparent to SW, and can be considered as a single layer not in conductive contact with the surface. There is no diurnal cycle, all is averaged out, all is in equilibrium. So at the sfc (with atmosphere) we have the following equation:
(the surface is black, captures all solar SW and transforms it into LW which it re-radiates) and G is the radiation from the atmosphere. Meanwhile, in the atmosphere,
(the atmospheric layer is totally opaque to the surface LW, is itself isothermal, and being a layer radiates both up and downwards). As it happens G = r(T_a)^4 but we don't care about that for tihs analysis. Hence, S + G = 2G, hence S = G, hence T_1 = (2S/r)^0.25. Meanwhile, in the absence of the atmosphere, we clearly would have T_2 = (S/r)^0.25. T_1 > T_2 (by a factor of 2^0.25) and (T_1 - T_2) is the greenhouse effect. William M. Connolley (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC) Also, this and the linked also refers, but is harder William M. Connolley (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
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Blast from the past
Not to creep you out, but I was looking through old RfAs and I found this, from your second, and succesful, RfA. To the question of: How do you see Misplaced Pages in 2010 ?
OK, for what its worth, here is the rest: I see wikipedia continuing its growth and influence. The problems of scaling will continue: how to smoothly adapt current practices to a larger community. At the moment this appears to be working mostly OK. Problems exist with the gap between arbcomm level and admin level: I expect this to have to be bridged/changed someway well before 2010. I very much hope more experts - from my area of interests, particularly scientists - will contribute: at the moment all too few do. To make this work, we will have to find some way to welcome and encourage them and their contributions without damaging the wiki ethos. This isn't working terribly well at the moment. I predict that wiki will still be a benevolent dictatorship in 2010 - the problems of transition to full user sovereignty are not worth solving at this stage. William M. Connolley 20:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC).
Thought you'd be amused. Shadowjams (talk) 07:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm yes. "Prediction is hard, especially of the future" as they say William M. Connolley (talk) 08:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ha. So they say. I'm really good at the past prediction part though. Shadowjams (talk) 08:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
More thermals
All at Idealized greenhouse model it seems |
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Thanks for your explanation which I am afraid I still don't really follow. I don't see how 'the earth heats the atmosphere' and 'the atmosphere heats the earth' can both be true.
| G ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. Emits G, up and down, thermal radiation. Absorbs S+G. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S G V ^ S+G | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+G(LW). Thus emits (S+G)(LW). Thus S+G = rT^4 Clear now? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Sorry, apart from the bit about not reflecting LW (that seemed picky, unless I misunderstood it), which of my claims was wrong? I said that the net outflow from earth to atmosphere has to be upwards. And that this outflow has to be exactly equal to the outflow from the atmosphere into space. Your diagram is incomprehensible. And what about Greenhouse effect where it says "Radiation is emitted both upward, with part escaping to space, and downward toward Earth's surface, making our life on earth possible." This is entirely wrong isn't it? It gives the impression that we are safe because only part of the radiation escapes to space, but the rest is trapped behind & keeps us snug and warm. The reality is that the net outflow from the earth has to be exactly balanced by the outflow at the edge of the atmosphere into space. Otherwise the atmosphere would keep on heating up until equilibrium was restored. HistorianofScience (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC) The unclearness of the diagram is the omission of the causality. You have the atmosphere radiating G downwards, e.g. Yes but where does the G come from? If we were to start with turning on the sun like a switch, at that instant there would be no G from the atmosphere. In which case the first thing to hit the earth would be S. Then earth would emit (not reflect) S. With no G. HistorianofScience (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
| 0 ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. At 0K. Doesn't radiate. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S 0 V ^ 0 | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+0(LW). At 0K. Doesn't radiate.
| 0 ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. At 0K. Doesn't radiate. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S 0 V ^ G_T | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+0(LW). Has warmed up somewhat, to T. Emits rT^4, call this G_T. So now the sfc has warmed up somewhat, so it is emitting G_T in the LW. Now the atmosphere isn't in balance: it is absorbing G_T but emitting nothing, since it is at 0K. So it will warm up. So it will start emitting downwards an warm further. And eventually we end up with the equilibrium solution William M. Connolley (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC) |
Service award update
Hello, William M. Connolley! The requirements for the service awards have been updated, and you may no longer be eligible for the award you currently display. Don't worry! Since you have already earned your award, you are free to keep displaying it. However, you may also wish to update to the current system.
Sorry for any inconvenience. — the Man in Question (in question) 10:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC) |
Argh, I hate it when these things change :-( Oh well, I'll see if the new one looks any prettier than the old :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 12:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Some help with links would be appreciated
I see that you're (still) neck deep in "The Dramaz!", but when you get a chance I'd appreciate it if yourself or someone you know could take a look at Eric Rignot and try to straighten out the climatology related redlinks there. Don't worry about the link to Lew Allen Director's Award, I'll take care of that myself eventually (unless someone else wants to write a little article about the award. Don't let me stop you!). Thanks!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- OK. By golly, but that is an awful photo! William M. Connolley (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Done a bit, others have too. You might want to pay attention to the regrettable possibility of it being a copyvio, mind William M. Connolley (talk) 19:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the assist, I appreciate it.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the assist, I appreciate it.
On refactoring and a higher standard of civility
- User:William M. Connolley is required to refrain until 2010-07-27 from editing others' talkpage posts in pages subject to this probation even in cases where the talk page guidelines would otherwise indicate that it could or should be done; he is further warned to refrain from using septic and similar derogatory terms, and to promptly refactor any unintentional typos.
The area of probation is to be interpreted to include anywhere that a topic related to or a dispute stemming from climate change is being discussed, including but not limited to articletalk, usertalk, and WP and WT namespaces. Editing others' posts explicitly includes adding {{cot}}, {{discussion top}}, and similar templates used to close discussions; an exception is made for archiving discussions which have received no posts for at least one week. Your right to point out cases where refactoring should occur is in no wise restricted. Please be careful when throwing around terms that might be interpreted to refer to your fellow volunteers - even if a subtle dig falls within the letter of WP:Civility, it can still sting and contribute to the level of dysfunction at those pages. - 2/0 (cont.) 21:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- This is silly and a victory for the yahoo
's; unfortunately you've succumbed to the mob. Ah well William M. Connolley (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Following discussion with the other admins who commented on the original discussion, the above restriction has been clarified: removing whole comments from this page is fine. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:24, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Code fragments found
Just thouht you might be interested in this news item about code fragments being found. It came to my attention as it was next to this story which has a pretty decent subheading. I don't have access to more than the abstract, doubtless this will lead to interesting discussions. Perhaps a bit offtopic at the moment, but something to look forward to. . . dave souza, talk 17:59, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Re: the water vapor, email me and you will get a PDF. (Re: Roman law - very cool.) Awickert (talk) 18:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- was due to an increase in water vapour in the high atmosphere - odd, the version I heard was stratospheric *drying*. Yes, pdf please William M. Connolley (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- From my limited understanding, the point is increase = warmer climate, subsequent drying = recent lack of warming predicted by some models, outcome possible solution to puzzle and improved modelling. All very interesting. . . dave souza, talk 19:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Apologies to all: my subscription doesn't work until it appears in print (e.g., until it stops being a "Science Express" article). Shoot. Sorry. You'll all get it once I can access it. I will send emails to friends at other institutions and see if they can get it though. Awickert (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have this page watchlisted anymore. I am willing to provide copies for papers behind paywalls within reason. -Atmoz (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
- Apologies to all: my subscription doesn't work until it appears in print (e.g., until it stops being a "Science Express" article). Shoot. Sorry. You'll all get it once I can access it. I will send emails to friends at other institutions and see if they can get it though. Awickert (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- From my limited understanding, the point is increase = warmer climate, subsequent drying = recent lack of warming predicted by some models, outcome possible solution to puzzle and improved modelling. All very interesting. . . dave souza, talk 19:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- was due to an increase in water vapour in the high atmosphere - odd, the version I heard was stratospheric *drying*. Yes, pdf please William M. Connolley (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Outcome of Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#TheGoodLocust, MarkNutley, WMC
- William M. Connolley is restricted until 2010-05-03 from making more than one revert to any article in the probation area in any 24 hour period.
- William M. Connolley is required until 2010-08-03 to initiate or participate in discussion at the relevant talkpage any time he makes a revert to any article in the probation area, excepting to revert blatant, obvious vandalism.
- 2/0 (cont.) 04:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Your editing privileges have been suspended for 48 hours
I have enacted a 48 hour block on your account LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Your lack of interest in the actual content of the wiki is duly noted; as I said above: you've chosen the worthless, the yahoos, the septics and the fools above those who actually have a clue William M. Connolley (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Note: I've removed the goo and dribble from the above, leaving only the substance William M. Connolley (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Simple:Misplaced Pages
I want to make sure that you are aware of this edit to Black Body. I had never heard of Simple:Misplaced Pages before, but apparently, I can now create a page there with the same name as a page here and they will be automatically linked. I don't know how to get that bot banned, so I am telling you. If you think that this is no big deal, please say so. (And yes, I know you have an account there. As of today so do I. Do you want **baby or should I take it:) Q Science (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
24 hour block, and extension to warning regarding inappopropriate words and phrases
Per the preceding section, you have been blocked for 24 hours for violating your 1RR restriction on Climate Change related articles.
You are also further notified that you shall not use demeaning or derogatory terms or phrases, broadly construed, when interacting with or discussing other contributors in respect of the General sanctions/Climate change probation area of articles (that is, not specifically on the article talkpages and probation pages but anywhere within the project). LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
- Good grief you're a biased bozo William M. Connolley (talk) 19:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | ||
Although I usually disagree with you, I just wanted to say thanks for all your contributions to the various global warming related articles. And also for occasionally making me smile. Thepm (talk) 11:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC) |
- Why thank you, that is very kind, both for the thought and the manner of giving William M. Connolley (talk) 11:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
My Compliments
I don't often see myself agreeing with /these, so when I do, I thought I'd take the opportunity to compliment you. Fell Gleaming 23:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Judith Curry
Can someone do me a userified copy of Judith Curry plus tell me who made it and why it was deleted? We're bound to have one, you know William M. Connolley (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The complete text appears below not counting tags and categories. User:Atmoz started it, it was deleted because he requested it. Dragons flight (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. At /Judith Curry now William M. Connolley (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
CYA
Any experience of ?--BozMo talk 07:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think we went once to one of the wednesday evening meetings at the observatories. But that was ~2 years ago William M. Connolley (talk) 20:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Kick, again
Please don't do stuff like this. It doesn't help your case. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right. Thanks William M. Connolley (talk) 09:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, I just volunteered you to play nicely if others stop harassing you. But you should play nicely even if others do harass you. Someone has to end the wasteful bickering. There's no reason (except maturity) that we can't have a civilized debate, and like SBHB says, whoever turns the other cheek the most makes everyone else look bad. And I make this same challenge to all of your talk page stalkers who disagree with you. Awickert (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I guess the answer to the question on playing nice back to harrassment is "why should you?". And I guess actually if you wanted to you could answer that question yourself. --BozMo talk 17:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Being mean is mean. And being mean on WP means that you get sanctioned in some way; civility seems to trump all. But perhaps most importantly, if everyone is nasty to each other, vile unproductive commentary results, and there is no forward progress on article writing. Progress on articles can only happen with mutual respect and civility. Awickert (talk) 17:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Cue "mutual" and "respect". Neither fake civility alone nor even real civility without respect are sufficient. That's why I'm so pissed off when people politely ignore the mainstream science and cherry-pick some outliers or blog posts to present a completely misleading picture. Of course, in the current climate, civility trumps all, so we have to politely point out errors... if necessary 5 times, or 20 times, or forever. Eternal vigilance and all that... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Respect" is a problem. Taken literally, your "Progress on articles can only happen with mutual respect..." means that the people who can't be respected (becasue they attempt to edit past their level of knowledge) need to leave those articles they can't cope with William M. Connolley (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think there are different categories of respect (personal, knowledge-based, etc.). I agree with Stephan, and think that a lot of this is the unfortunate communication of extreme views around global warming. Ideally, someone using blogs or not knowing what they were talking about would need to be confronted only once about this, and then would respectfully ask for suggestions for better sources, which would be provided. But this is idealism. Awickert (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Few people are beyond meriting some respect; those who appear to be generally are not responsible for their predicament and I do not think civility should be limited to people who are aware of their own limitations. I have chaired company AGMs and put up with tiresome shareholders asking questions about how much money was spent on paperclips when management have tripled the value of their shares and if Gordon can keep his "bigoted" type comments until he thinks no one is listening then I think we should all be able to do the same on WP. --BozMo talk 22:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- We're in a specialised environment. I merit no respect when attempting to discuss the details of string theory; we have people here who merit no respect when attempting to discuss the science of GW. The difference is, I know it William M. Connolley (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- We're in a particular kind of collaborative work, and Comment on content, not on the contributor (lifted from LHvU's comment elsewhere) is a good and necessary requirement. Respect or otherwise for people is irrelevant, comment on their actions without drawing or implying anything about themselves. If their edits are rubbish, point out how the info is rubbish but don't suggest that implies anything about the editor. Also, I've had cause to advise another editor to stop classifying other editors into groups, which is similarly uncivil. We gotta be professional, or at lesst nice, in our interactions. . . dave souza, talk 20:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- We're in a specialised environment. I merit no respect when attempting to discuss the details of string theory; we have people here who merit no respect when attempting to discuss the science of GW. The difference is, I know it William M. Connolley (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Few people are beyond meriting some respect; those who appear to be generally are not responsible for their predicament and I do not think civility should be limited to people who are aware of their own limitations. I have chaired company AGMs and put up with tiresome shareholders asking questions about how much money was spent on paperclips when management have tripled the value of their shares and if Gordon can keep his "bigoted" type comments until he thinks no one is listening then I think we should all be able to do the same on WP. --BozMo talk 22:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think there are different categories of respect (personal, knowledge-based, etc.). I agree with Stephan, and think that a lot of this is the unfortunate communication of extreme views around global warming. Ideally, someone using blogs or not knowing what they were talking about would need to be confronted only once about this, and then would respectfully ask for suggestions for better sources, which would be provided. But this is idealism. Awickert (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Respect" is a problem. Taken literally, your "Progress on articles can only happen with mutual respect..." means that the people who can't be respected (becasue they attempt to edit past their level of knowledge) need to leave those articles they can't cope with William M. Connolley (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Cue "mutual" and "respect". Neither fake civility alone nor even real civility without respect are sufficient. That's why I'm so pissed off when people politely ignore the mainstream science and cherry-pick some outliers or blog posts to present a completely misleading picture. Of course, in the current climate, civility trumps all, so we have to politely point out errors... if necessary 5 times, or 20 times, or forever. Eternal vigilance and all that... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Being mean is mean. And being mean on WP means that you get sanctioned in some way; civility seems to trump all. But perhaps most importantly, if everyone is nasty to each other, vile unproductive commentary results, and there is no forward progress on article writing. Progress on articles can only happen with mutual respect and civility. Awickert (talk) 17:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- What Boris said. And you overwrote my comment... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oops, my apologies. Fortunately, Bozmo has done the right thing. I see you couldn't resist taking the piss out of TGL's spelling William M. Connolley (talk) 21:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm not prefekt iether ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oops, my apologies. Fortunately, Bozmo has done the right thing. I see you couldn't resist taking the piss out of TGL's spelling William M. Connolley (talk) 21:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Dynamic topography
To William and his talk page stalkers:
Would you (ambiguously singular or plural) like to expand the portion of "Dynamic topography" that is about the oceans?
I am planning on doing some expansion of the solid-Earth-geophysics portion of that article (which currently covers both the dynamically-supported ocean elevations and topography due to motion of material in the mantle), but I think it would be a disservice to continue to ignore the ocean part. Ideally, we would have two separate standalone articles.
Awickert (talk) 17:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. How analogous are they? I never got through reading Gill, so maybe now is my chance :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 18:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I don't know anything about it in the oceans; in the Earth it is due to motion in the mantle that creates normal tractions on interfaces such as the surface, the upper/lower mantle discontinuity, the core-mantle boundary, etc. Since it is supposed to be about the motion of seawater, I can imagine how the physics could be identical, but I can't say for sure and about to head out the door: off to see a friend perform in Guettarda's favorite musical, Awickert (talk) 18:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Careful. That is pretty clear evidence of a Cabal, or possibly a Cadre William M. Connolley (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Cadre, I think. In our obligatory red shirts. Guettarda (talk) 21:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about "Gang of N." It has a nice math/science ring to it, and evokes the Gang of Four. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- While "Gang of N" has a certain ring to it (the definitions are so amorphous, no one can agree how many there are), I think "Gang of i" might be more appropriate. Guettarda (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about "Gang of N." It has a nice math/science ring to it, and evokes the Gang of Four. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I was totally baffled by "Guettarda's favourite musical"...until I remembered that conversation. It was especially puzzling since I've never seen it, have no idea what it's actually about, and don't even know what comes after the second "Oklahoma!" Guettarda (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's a good one - you should see it. Back to the topic: if it turns out that the underlying physics are the same, but just expressed in different media, I bet we could leave it at one article. If they are fundamentally different, then let's split. Awickert (talk) 01:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Barnstar
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | ||
For many years of defending Misplaced Pages from the forces of the abyss. Ben Aveling 11:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC) |
- You were here when I joined Misplaced Pages, and you've been much more constant than I have. I've learned a great deal from you, and while we have not always agreed on who is evil and who is just different, I have always respected the passion with which you have fought what we both regard as monsters from the abyss. Regards, Ben Aveling 11:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks! It could not have come at a happier time William M. Connolley (talk) 19:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Posting in uninvolved admin section
I've removed your comment from a section where it does not belong. Feel free to re-place it in the correct section. However, do not replace it in the uninvolved admin section. ++Lar: t/c 18:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Since you reinserted it in the same section, you've been blocked for one hour to reduce disruption. When you return you can place it in the correct section. ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lar i already moved it to try and stop further argument, i think WMC should be unblocked as there is an RFE which looks like it`s coming to a close mark nutley (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to unblock instantly, if I was assured that further disruption wouldn't occur. WMC has but to undertake not to put material in the wrong section again. I doubt one hour will make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of the enforcement request's resolution, but it should be sufficient time for WMC to reflect. ++Lar: t/c 18:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lar i already moved it to try and stop further argument, i think WMC should be unblocked as there is an RFE which looks like it`s coming to a close mark nutley (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Unblock requested
{{unblock|Lar is too biased to be blocking me, and should not be blocking people he has an editing disagreement with}}
This was a good block. Putting material in a section where it is disallowed is not an "editing disagreement". Putting it back after it was removed is disruption. I doubt WMC can show I have any bias against him specifically, although I freely admit bias against some of the tactics he employs which have gotten him in trouble before. But I welcome review as always. ++Lar: t/c 18:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
William, please don't play into Lar's hand by doing anything rash. On the broader point you need to understand that you have to be civil especially when others are acting badly. By doing so you keep the focus on their misbehavior. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with WMC, and support unblocking him. He has a right to reply, and as I've so recently been reminded, an editor shouldn't remove another's comments, though moving them may have been appropriate. Prodego 19:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- He knew where the comment belonged all along. Reinserting it in the same place instead of where it did belong, with an edit comment taking a swipe at me in passing, was disruptive edit warring. He's an experienced editor, he knows better. We don't have to clean up his mistakes. ++Lar: t/c 19:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, you do. Comment by non-admins will be moved to the above section - not deleted. Many of us have, in good faith, moved comments from the admin to the editor section in the past when they were incorrectly placed. We did so to maintain the order of conversation. If you didn't want to move the comment you could have left it and someone else would have done it, but the rules are and the consensus has been to move comments, not delete them.
- It also must be said it is a problem of your own making, since you are using the admin section inappropriately for threaded discussion, which obliges the rest of the community to take a disjointed approach to replying. Use the discussion section for discussion and there won't be a problem. Weakopedia (talk) 07:05, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- He knew where the comment belonged all along. Reinserting it in the same place instead of where it did belong, with an edit comment taking a swipe at me in passing, was disruptive edit warring. He's an experienced editor, he knows better. We don't have to clean up his mistakes. ++Lar: t/c 19:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s):
Request handled by: - 2/0 (cont.) Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request. |
Thanks to 2/0 William M. Connolley (talk) 19:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Request that you remove your uncivil remarks
WMC, I have removed my remarks on Fred Singer's talk, and I've requested deletion of the user subpage that you were unhappy about. Now I am politely asking you to remove your uncivil remarks from the last week, including calling me a troll and questioning SV's honesty, and any other comments that assume bad faith or a condescending tone. Would you please do that so we can start fresh here? I've removed mine and I don't intend to add them back regardless, but I'm hoping that you'll remove yours too. ATren (talk) 19:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've redacted my comments that reply to yours; the substance remove but the reacting snark is now gone. I think the idea of starting fresh from here would be good; how about: I don't attack you on the probation pages or elsewhere, and you don't attack me? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I just love happy endings. Please, please, guys, can both of you stick to this? And consider that even if the other one doesn't, it's to your benefit to do so anyway. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I also stand as witness to this agreement between you and will not hesitate to remind you of it. In the event that either thinks the other has broken it please could I request rather than retaliating or escalating the putatively offended party brings the diff to Boris or I? --BozMo talk 06:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
WMC, thank you for redacting. I will make every attempt to adhere to this "cease fire", though I suspect we may sometimes differ on what constitutes an attack. So perhaps BozMo can act as informal mediator if we disagree? I'd be OK with that. In any case, I find I've been spending far too much time here lately, so I may back entirely out of this debate for a few weeks -- hopefully that break will help us put this long-standing battle behind us. ATren (talk) 22:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Chose your forum....
SV is right about (c). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- But wrong about (a) and (b). As for (c), if she believed that she wouldn't be saying (a) or (b) William M. Connolley (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". You know how it goes: "I'm arguing my case. You are disruptive. They are vandals". As Boris would say if religion wasn't opium for the masses: No matter how many beams are in SVs eyes, take care of your own mote first. I now declare this the Louvre of overused cliches! More seriously, we are the rational side. Climate change is complex, and further complicated by the "sceptics" persistent smoke and mirrors campaign. Non-scientifically trained people will no see who is right by looking at the primary literature, or by counting the number of scientists helplessly writhing on the floor in mirth after hearing a Ball argument. They will form their belief based on surface properties. SV very probably has no idea about climate change or the climate change debate. I doubt that she is even informed enough to be a "sceptic". She is a stickler for (some) Misplaced Pages rules, though, and will oppose you based on that no matter what this does to the real quality of the encyclopedia in this field. She has no way of measuring the later, but she believes (with a in no way unusual amount of hypocrisy, see the conjugation above) in the Misplaced Pages rules. So her behavior, while in some aspects counterproductive from our point of view, is reasonably rational by hers. WP:AGF in this context means accepting that people act on honestly mistaken beliefs even if they should know better. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Notice of page ban
Under Climate Change general sanctions, I hereby inform you of the following result of the recent complaint about your edits:
- William M. Connolley (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing the article Fred Singer.
This sanction may be appealed to myself, the appropriate noticeboard or the Arbitration Committee. The Wordsmith 19:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)