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Breathe (Pink Floyd song)

Breathe (Pink Floyd song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Non-notable song, fails WP:NSONGS, consensus at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pink Floyd#Pink Floyd songs was to redirect to album per policy. John (talk) 13:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• See also Talk:The Dark Side of the Moon#Song pages and User talk:Pigsonthewing#Breathe for more arguments to delete. --John (talk) 13:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

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Note: There was not even discussion, let alone consensus, about this song at WP:FLOYD.Mk5384 (talk) 06:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

There has to be? Erpert (let's talk about it) 14:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's cut the shit, huh? Above, John says that at WP:FLOYD, there was consensus to redirect this song. I have pointed out that not only was there no consensus; it wasn't even discussed.Mk5384 (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• • Here's the bit that applies from NSONGS: "Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. Notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album". It would be great if those wishing to keep this could explain hows an article like this relates to this. --John (talk) 14:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
    • The article is not a stub. It has "enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article". The song has been "performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups". This is not "most songs". Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, that's where we disagree. I guess my delete rationale is that articles like this are effectively sub-stubs, once you discount material that is or could be in the album article, and also that they can inherently never be developed beyond stubs. They should not exist unless there is sufficient sourced material that is of interest to an encyclopedia yet would not fit on the album article, and this is the intention of WP:NSONGS. That, I do not see at present, though of course YMMV. WP:INHERITED and User:Kww's excellent arguments below also sum up my feelings on this one. --John (talk) 05:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Note: The statement that there should be an article if "there is sufficient sourced material, ect., yet would not fit on the album article", is your opinion, and not part of WP:NSONGS.Mk5384 (talk) 05:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. The song is notable; the article is cited. There appears to be no such consensus and no breach of WP:NSONGS. Attempts to redirect to Dark Side of the Moon or to PROD it have both been opposed. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:36, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep- As a track on one of the most famous albums of all time, its inherently notable, cited or not. Parrot of Doom 14:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep unless policy is to eliminate all pages about individual songs. Carrite (talk) 14:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep – the song is notable, the article is obviously not a stub, there are citations, the album article does not include the same cited material, and the nominator is unable to point to any consensus in the lengthy Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pink Floyd#Pink Floyd songs that I can perceive which is pertinent to this particular article. (I would have thought WikiProject Pink Floyd would be devoted to adding material and citations and improving coverage of the ouevre rather than the opposite.) Occuli (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep A song notable in its own right. Lugnuts (talk) 17:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• I'm actually neutral about this because the song wasn't a single and doesn't seem to have widespread coverage in reliable sources. By the way, not to start an argument, but I would like to say something to two editors:

Parrot of Doom: That isn't a very good "keep" rationale; see WP:INHERITED.

Let me say it this way then - I own quite a few Floyd-related books, and I could very easily create a GA out of that song article. I'm not going to, frankly because there are more interesting things for me to do, but there is no shortage of coverage of this song in places where those who know where to look, do so. Parrot of Doom 18:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That's funny, right below WP:INHERITED is WP:LOTSOFSOURCES! I don't see how the article could ever aspire to be a GA. If nobody is ever going to develop it beyond its current state, it's tempting to think it can't ever be developed beyond that stage. Hence the nomination. --John (talk) 19:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

"Whilst showing the subject is mentioned in a number of sources, not all sources are reliable and may only be trivial mentions" - I'd hardly include the list of print sources I've used in The Dark Side of the Moon as unreliable, and I know for a fact that John Harris says quite a bit about "Breathe". Perhaps, rather than simply redirecting the page, you might first try expanding it yourself? Parrot of Doom 19:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Carrite: I think you might have missed the point of WP:NSONGS.

--Erpert (let's talk about it) 17:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - song has had some coverage and is in one of the most famous albums by Pink Floyd. However, sourcing could definitely be improved.--137.122.49.102 (talk) 21:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Keeping our legs on the ground (as it were!), most of the coverage for most of the songs on this album is coverage of the album, the songs being part of the album. Potentially, all of these songs could be merged into The Dark Side of the Moon (or perhaps The Dark Side of the Moon (analysis) or some such). Just because a song is famous, doesn't mean that it will automatically have its own coverage in sources, especially if that song is a track from a concept album. This is exactly analogous, IMO, to having four different articles for each of the individual movements of Beethoven's most famous symphonies. In fact, even the opening movement of the Fifth and the last movement of the Ninth don't get individual articles. In truth, only one of the songs from DSOTM is heard very often divorced from the album, viz "Money". I am not saying delete/merge/redirect here as I suspect there will be more sourcing about this song (rather than the album) out there, we just need to find it. I do think too many here are getting a bit carried away with the moment, though: "Breath must be famous, it's on a famous album by a famous band!!!" or whatever. I almost posted words to that effect. The song is certainly "notable" in the dictionary sense; whether it is notable in the WP sense is yet to be seen. The article only has three sources so far, only one of which I can personally verify (Allmusic). The coverage in the other sources might be trivial for all I know. Also, I might point out that John has been incredibly bold and redirected most of side two to the album's article. Just out of interest, is Pigsonthewing the same Andy Mabbett that wrote The Complete Guide to the Music of Pink Floyd? Not that it matters (the author of that book wrote it long before WP and doesn't have any obvious COI here), I am just curious that no one has asked about this yet or attempted to use it against Andy's !vote! --Jubilee♫clipman 00:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Redirect to parent album: ] is quite specific about what songs qualify for individual articles, and arguments to keep this one need to refer to that guideline. What I see about is essentially "I like it and it's famous", which is not the stuff of which policy arguments are made. From WP:NSONGS:

• "All articles on albums, singles or songs must meet the basic criteria at the notability guidelines, with significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."

• Specifically states that the requirements for songs include WP:N. The requirements laid down by WP:NSONGS are in addition to WP:N.

• "In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Misplaced Pages. Unreleased material (including demos, mixtapes, bootlegs, promo-only recordings) is in general not notable; however, it may be notable if it has significant independent coverage in reliable sources. Album articles with little more than a track listing may be more appropriately merged into the artist's main article or discography article, space permitting."

• This doesn't apply to this discussion, as it is about albums.

• "Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song."

• Pretty basic guidance: in general, don't write separate articles for songs, cover them in sections of larger articles.

• "Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable."

• Here's the major exception: songs that have charted, won awards, or been covered by multiple artists can get articles.

• "Notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album."

• Even if the article charted, won awards, or been covered by multiple artists, it may not deserve an article.

So, given all of that, the test for "passing WP:NSONGS" is "received coverage in multiple reliable sources" AND (charted, won an award, or been covered by multiple artists) AND "received enough coverage that we can write more than a stub". Coverage first, and then does something that qualified. This song doesn't seem to meet those conditions.—Kww(talk) 00:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• It meets all these conditions, as explained in detail by multiple editors above. This afd seems to be based on complete and wilful ignorance. A google search on Breathe "Pink Floyd" gets around 10^6 hits: I have not sifted through all these but expect some of them will have some merit. Occuli (talk) 10:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Please show me where the song has charted, has had recordings issued by multiple artists, or won awards. If you can show that it meets any one those three, I will change my !vote to keep.—Kww(talk) 14:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• And I will withdraw the nomination, which is based on a failure to meet WP:NSONGS. If it can be shown that it does in fact meet NSONGS, obviously this nomination would be moot. I do not believe that it can, and I believe all the opposition so far to redirecting this shows fundamental misunderstanding of NSONGS. Prove me wrong, and improve the article to reflect the notable awards the song has won, the music charts it has been listed in as a single, and the bands who have released versions of it, and we can close early. --John (talk) 15:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• I had missed one of the covers: the cover by Sea of Green may be enough to squeak it past WP:NSONGS. The two off of tribute albums don't count for much in my view. The real question is whether one cover by an obscure band meets "performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups". I'd still say not.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Keep the song is notable (thought the lack of citations may say otherwise) redirecting it would result in the loss of most (if not all) of the info that it currently in this article.--White Shadows 10:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  • What makes you say that? Information is usually preserved during a WP:MERGE-and-WP:REDIRECT process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep I've discussed this at WP:FLOYD. John seems to have taken quite an interest in ridding this encyclopaedia of Pink Floyd songs. This helps us how?Mk5384 (talk) 04:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  • The song has been recorded by Pink Floyd, Roger Waters, and David Gilmour. Right there it seems to meet guidelines.Mk5384 (talk) 05:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily, because Roger Waters and David Gilmour were in Pink Floyd. Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, they were. WP:NSONGS says it must have been performed by several notable bands or people. It says absolutely nothing to the effect that they can not, at one time, have played together.Mk5384 (talk) 06:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Ah, but you've left out an important word:

Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

That's right. Pink Floyd performed it independently. It appears on the album Dark Side of the Moon. Roger Waters performed it independently. It appeared on the album In the Flesh-Live. David Gilmour performed it independently. It appeared on the album Live in Gdansk.Mk5384 (talk) 06:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Now, you know what the policy means by "independent". Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

All I know is that one user is on a crusade to rid this encyclopaedia of Pink Floyd song articles by following the letter of WP:NSONGS, rather than using common sense. So if we're going to follow NSONGS to the letter, then perfomances by Floyd, Waters, and Gilmour meet the letter.Mk5384 (talk) 07:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, it's not "policy", but a guideline, subject to common sense, and occasional exceptions, not to mention WP:IAR.Mk5384 (talk) 07:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but you shouldn't ignore all rules simply because you like the subject. And where's the proof that the user is a crusade to get rid of Pink Floyd-related articles? Erpert (let's talk about it) 14:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Most of the redirects in this index are the recent work of crusader John (and there are others: see J's contribs around then with the SONGS comment). These are all just 'redirect', not 'merge and redirect' (which requires reflection and effort). I'm surprised that no-one has challenged any of these (some of which may well be non-notable). Marooned ... anyone? Occuli (talk) 17:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• Keep PoD has demonstrated that the song is notable and receives non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. If it wasn't for the caveat that "a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article", it would be pretty obvious that this AfD should be swiftly closed. As it is, the article is reasonably detailed and could be still further expanded. Nev1 (talk) 12:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Plenty of non-trivial coverage in WP:RSes. A live performance by another notable artist (Flaming Lips) seems to cap this quite solidly. Torchiest /_contribs 17:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• Another tribute album. I have a hard time counting tribute album covers as counting towards the guideline for the same reason that I don't count phonebooks as contributing to the notability of people: tributes cover everything, regardless of notability.—Kww(talk) 19:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Tributes don't cover "everything". Instead they cover artists' music with a fan base wide enough to merit tribute albums. The phonebook does, indeed, cover (almost) everyone. Tribute albums are only made when an artist feels that another artist is worth covering.Mk5384 (talk) 20:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

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