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Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant

Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Restaurant or company of no particular notability, one of thousands, written in the manner of a promotional review. Off2riorob (talk) 20:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Satisfies WP:NOTE, has received significant coverage in multiple secondary sources independent of the subject. Also, AFD is not for cleanup. -- Cirt (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is also not for advertising restaurants of limited notability. Off2riorob (talk) 21:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Not intended as such. -- Cirt (talk) 21:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. —-- Cirt (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wine-related deletion discussions. —-- Cirt (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. —-- Cirt (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep I keep seeing people say that it's not neutral (or reads as an advertisement), but I've yet to see anyone provide any new sources to tone down the positiveness of the article, or even to attempt at rewording anything... I'll concede that perhaps it's a bit localized, but I (personally) don't have a problem with that. If there's a relevant guideline for restaurant articles, I'd be happy to revisit my position. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Please read WP:CORP as coverage must extend beyond significant local and incidental regional coverage.Griswaldo (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Um, isn't the New York Times (and its website) published globally? I live about 5000 miles away from this restaurant but I'm reading significant coverage from a reputable publisher... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• This appeared in the Regional section of the paper.Griswaldo (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, which I read 5,000 miles away. How "regional" do you think this "coverage" is? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• For clarification, can you please tell us if you read it in the edition that was printed for sale 5000 miles away, in the edition that was printed for sale in NY/NJ and mailed to you, or did you read it online? Obviously local papers with websites can be read anywhere. If it was printed specifically for international distribution that is a different story. The NY Times covers local events as well as national/internation ones. New Brunswick is part of the NY metro area, and its inclusion in that paper does not necessarily make the subject of regional importance (for the record it takes far less time to travel from Manhattan to the restaurant in question than it does to travel to places in Queens, Staten Island, and Brooklyn).Njsustain (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• For clarification, yes, I read it in the internationally-published website. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk)

• Not to be argumentative, but the point I was making is that if you read it online, that doesn't make it "international." The entire web is by its nature international. The fact that you read a story which was printed specifically in the New Jersey section (i.e. for the metropolitan community) on the world wide web doesn't make it of "international" importance any more than reading about the Chipotle franchise in the Supulpa, Oklahoma weekly shopper's website while in Rome makes it of international importance. I'm not going to take a side on deletion, but do want it to be clear that inclusion of a New Jersey subject in the NY Times does not automatically make that subject of more than local importance.Njsustain (talk) 22:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Not wishing to be argumentative either, by any stretch, but if this is a potential policy/guideline change then fine by me. This restaurant has received global coverage being publicised by one of the biggest newspapers in history. If we need to modify our policies to cater for the fact that this may not be as clear as it seems, then fine. Perhaps this is a test case for establishments claiming notability via an internationally published newspaper, and perhaps we need to discuss it in a wider forum. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• There is a current discussion regarding the criteria for inclusion of restaurants at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Restaurant_notability - Regards, Njsustain (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep appears, on the face of it, to have received coverage from a number of notable secondary sources. Not quite sure how it currently fails our WP:N criterion, perhaps the nominator would be kind enough to expand on his accusation of "no particular notability" vs said policy, and if it's a promotional review, perhaps nominator could remove overt advertising or add some information to the talkpage to assist those involved. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Please read WP:CORP as coverage must extend beyond significant local and incidental regional coverage See my reply to Evula above.Griswaldo (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This exact verbatim text appears to have been posted by the same user already, above. No need for duplicate spam posting. -- Cirt (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what SPAM is. The same response was appropriate for both posts.Griswaldo (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Quite so, Griswaldo. I am capable of reading your comments, no need to overwhelm this AFD with your repeated opinion. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

No, there was no need for you to post the exact same text in two places on this same page. You could have simply pointed another user by saying, see comment, above. -- Cirt (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Delete This entry does not satisfy the more specific policy - WP:CORP. All coverage is local and regional, and that includes the two mentions in the New York Times appearing in the regional section there. One piece of information that was put forth towards notability in other discussions was established as inaccurate and removed by me here. What we have here is a puff piece written about a popular restaurant based on a series of local news paper and magazine reviews. There is absolutely no reason for an encyclopedia to contain content on this location.Griswaldo (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Zagat Survey rating of 24/30 is not local . The New York Times feature selection in "Standouts Among the Year’s Best" is not local. -- Cirt (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think the Zagat Survey is highly highly local, and if anything 24/30 is a very strong argument against inclusion if we are to consider it at all. This is a totally ordinary restaurant of zero encyclopedic interest. Note that New York City alone has 198 restaurants with a higher food rating. 24 is totally unremarkable. It's a local wine bar with good reviews, nothing more.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that high ratings in Zagat was part of the notability criteria, or a listing in a NYT regional restaurant review was either. If other people think that Misplaced Pages should be filled with listings for every well reviewed restaurant then so be it, but I don't. There are millions of similar restaurants around. Also please note that restaurant reviews are not part of the normal news cycle, they are part of a culture of public relations and marketing for restaurants. "Significant coverage" by local reviews is a beast of a very particular sort.Griswaldo (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, (slightly weakish but still). The "Reception" section could definitely be shortened - it is that section that perhaps gives the article something of a promotional impression. However, there appears to be a reasonably solid case for notability. There are quite a few NJ regional sources (not just the local town newspaper), as well as some regional awards, mentioned in the lede. Quite a bit of coverage in NYT (in the NJ section but still, that counts as regional, and not just local, coverage). Plus the restaurant was featured in a national NBC program - a national source. I would have liked to see a bit more - e.g. some mention in regional guidebook(s), but basically there is enough here to pass WP:CORP and WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful pointers. I would have gladly worked to trim down the Reception subsection, had this been politely pointed out in a specific suggestion on the talk page, however, again, AFD is not for cleanup. -- Cirt (talk) 21:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per the substantial coverage in reliable sources. Notability is easily established. This article is well-written, not promotional; it should be at GA or FAC, not AfD. Cunard (talk) 21:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. It seems to be well enough sourced, and the restaurant has clearly achieved significant local notability. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Delete To me, local reviews are not "independent" coverage for a local establishment, and while the New York Times is read nationally (even internationally), it is still a local paper for the New York area, it clearly still covers regional topics, and its coverage appeared in the Regional section (re discussion above as to NYT being available internationally - so are all websites where not blocked by nations, and pretty much any written work can be distributed internationally, the point is focus). There appears to be no significant coverage of this restaurant outside of its local area and, while the article is well written, I don't see how it has the actual notability necessary to meet with WP:N nor WP:CORP. Further, many local restaurants get a one off appearance on Food Network or NBC...ONE appearance isn't significant coverage. I have not seen any policy nor guideline that says that the "Zagat" survey is relevant nor noteworthy here. From the site, it appears to be a user-based rating system, much like ePinions, only you have to pay to see them. -- AnmaFinotera (talk ~ contribs) 21:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Strong keep. Strong, multiple, continuous coverage by several undisputedly reliable sources means that it passes our general notability guideline with flying colours. No sane reason exists to dismiss sources only because most of them are "regional", especially if the "region" includes millions of persons. The "delete" comments above seem to squirm into a personal interpretation of notability which isn't supported by any guideline apart perhaps for WP:CORP -in any case, alternative notability guidelines are supposed to extend GNG, not to replace it, so the requirement of CORP of sources not being local is completely moot. Reliable sources are reliable sources and significant coverage is significant coverage regardless of the audience. An academic journal on some exotic mathematics field would have probably much less audience than NYT, but nobody seriously argue to dismiss it as a RS. To pick up "local" as a proxy for "nobody cares about it" is deeply biased. --Cyclopia 00:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I may be missing something, so I'm not saying "delete" at the moment, but I do not see any assertion of notability. If this article is kept we are really opening the floodgates: every two-bit cafe in the world will want an article because local media invariably mentions every food outlet a couple of times, and we don't keep one article because it is well written and the restaurant has good reviews, while deleting another article on a local cafe because it is not (yet) well written and has bad reviews. Then there is every other business covered by a couple of trade magazines which invariably cover all vaguely relevant organizations: is Joe's Printing notable because it is mentioned in a couple of local papers and trade mags? I'm not saying "OTHERSTUFF", I'm asking how WP:ORG applies to this restaurant. Johnuniq (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion discussions are about establishing actual notability, not assertions of notability. Notability is established by guidelines. Even for establishments in its metropolitan area, The New York Times is generally not considered the "local paper". _matic 02:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Though, like other large metro areas, there are other local papers in the NY area, The Times is indeed considered a local paper, as well as a global paper of record, to those living within the metro area. The Times happens to have excellent local coverage as well as covering topics of global importance. The review of this restaurant happened to be part of its metro coverage, nothing more. Is there a standard which states that anything that happens to be in the NY Times, no matter the context, deserves a WP article, and if so, what other newspapers are included in this elite list, and where is the line drawn? At the Pittsburgh Press? At the San Francisco Chronicle? At the Miami Herald? And who gets to decide what is on each side or this line?Njsustain (talk) 10:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Speedy keep, including its imputation of bad faith on the part of the nominator. Full length review in New York Times (which was in the version that was nominated for deletion) alone is sufficient to establish notability. Appearing on "best" lists in large metropolitan areas and being widely reviewed rebut the claim that the NY Times coverage is too local. Furthermore, it has won state-wide awards in a state with population of nearly 9 million. _matic 02:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• The review in question focuses on the founding chef (no longer there) more than the restaurant, and suggests that said chef had some notability when the restaurant was created. One suggestion in another discussion was to merge the appropriate amount of information into the entry on the chef instead. Also, is there any indication that this review, located under the heading "DINING | NEW BRUNSWICK" was published in the national or international distribution of the New York Times? It doesn't go beyond local just because its the Times unless it is actually distributed outside the region.Griswaldo (talk) 03:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• The "state-wide awards" were readers choice awards from New Jersey Monthly with a self proclaimed maximum readership of 515,000 total readers, not 9 million. Clearly those who actually voted on this are a much smaller number than that as well. That said are you suggesting that all of the restaurants winning these NJ Monthly prizes each year, over 150 in 2007 alone are also notable and deserve entries here? Maybe we should multiply that by 50 for each state that hands out these types of awards in their monthly magazines. We're talking about over 7,500 restaurants every year that are equally notable, probably two or three times that given the fact that there are multiple state wide organizations handing out these types of prizes.Griswaldo (talk) 03:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the awards included Critics' Choice awards recognition as well. -- Cirt (talk) 03:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If you are suggesting that the notability guidelines are far broader than might be desirable, you will not get disagreement from me—personally, I think they're absurdly over-inclusive and lead to many, many thousands of articles on unencyclopedic topics. But there they are, in black and white, as the only authoritative basis to opine in deletion discussions. This restaurant—and probably many far less notable (in the real world, not Misplaced Pages sense) ones—meets the guidelines. _matic 03:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No they don't. The guidelines are possibly a bit ambiguous but they are not plainly broad. They are being interpreted broadly by some and narrowly by others. It's an odd choice to take the broad interpretation while wishing openly that guidelines were more narrow. It is certainly odd to admit that this and other restaurants do not belong in an encyclopedia but to claim being handcuffed by a guideline in a way that you can't do anything about it. To each their own I guess.Griswaldo (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Changing the interpretation of the guidelines can only be done on the margins. The topic of this article unambiguously meets the guidelines. It's better to choose one's battles than to tilt at windmills. _matic 04:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - per Griswaldo and AnmaFinotera. Fails notability. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Keep!!! - run by a Scientologist , so we've got to support Cirt's crusade by documenting their every move. Got to keep those Thetans out of our soup on theatre night. Cookiehead (talk) 03:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Warning regarding this comment placed on talk page James (T C) 04:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Response to Warning also placed on talk page. Also warning on this page of an extreme lack of a sense of humor coupled with a heady dose of condescension, and an inability to determine the difference between "keep" and delete". Cheers. Cookiehead (talk) 04:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Cookiehead, your sarcastic humor is unnecessary and in fact counter-productive here. You bring to the forefront a completely valid point, and snarking about it diminishes the impact of the point. Many of us have puzzled about why an article about a completely run-of-the-mill restaurant with some good local reviews was singled out for an article. Some wondered about a conflict of interest. The fact that there is a Scientology connection explains a lot, and not in a way that is favorable to the cause of this article. Cirt writes a lot about topics connected to Scientology. That there is a connection to Scientology here is quite relevant to any thoughtful understanding of what is going on.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Update: In response to above comments, I have trimmed down the size of the Reception subsection, from to . It is now a bit more succinct and concise. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 05:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Notability and depth of coverage appear to be satisfied.Jarhed (talk) 05:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - A new-ish restaurant getting positive reviews from local papers and Zagat does not make it notable. SQGibbon (talk) 05:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• More - WP:CORP states "On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability" which seems to be the case here. Further the article reads like an advertisement and without anything notable about the restaurant means it should be deleted as per WP:CORP. SQGibbon (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - passes WP:GNG as well as WP:CORP's requirement for "at least regional" coverage. I personally feel that Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria are too broad or too vague, and that a guideline written specifically for restaurants might be written with tighter standards, resulting in deletion of this article. But with the existing guidelines as they are, the requirements are met. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - this is what wikipedia will become when paid editing is allowed. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 06:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Peter's comment. My initial thought is that keeping an article on this subject may be OK, but we need to gut this sucker.--Milowent • 07:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Note: There was no paid editing involved with writing this article. -- Cirt (talk) 10:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep Easily meets the main general notability guideline, does not go against any policies, so there is no reason we should not have an article. Davewild (talk) 07:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Undecided. The subject may meet the notability guideline (barely), but the article is poor and should be rewritten completely to make an objective look at it possible. Things like "In 2007, The New York Times highlighted the restaurant in a piece, "Standouts Among the Year's Best", and gave it a rating of "excellent"" in reality mean that the regional New Jersey section of the NYTimes reviewed 42 restaurants in 2007, and mentioned the ten best of these 42 again in an article at the end of the year. The current sentence gives the impression that this is comparable to a selection of the ten best books of the year by the NYTimes, when it is just the selection of one food critic from his weekly regional restaurant visit. It may be a somewhat notable restaurant, but this is a puff piece fileld with trivia and blog sources. Fram (talk) 07:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per Griswaldo and AnmaFinotera. Not much more than local notability. ThemFromSpace 09:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

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