Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 06:47, 4 August 2010 editHeadbomb (talk \| contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors453,892 editsm →Result concerning Brews ohare: indent← Previous edit		Revision as of 07:03, 4 August 2010 edit undoSandstein (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators188,264 edits →Result concerning Brews ohare: link to request for clarificationNext edit →
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	:::Guess we'll see each other soon because of these articles then. Hopefully I'm wrong about this. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] / ] / ] / ]}</span> 06:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)		:::Guess we'll see each other soon because of these articles then. Hopefully I'm wrong about this. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] / ] / ] / ]}</span> 06:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

			Contributors to this arbitration enforcement request may be interested in my request for clarification . <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 07:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

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Shuki

Complainer and complainee both topic-banned for 5 weeks.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement: nableezy - 19:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Removes reliablly sourced material because it conflict's with the user's own personal view
again
again
again
again
again

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Notified of the case

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Shuki has been filibustering any mention of the status of these settlements in international law. Originally Shuki has complained that the sources did not specifically say that a certain settlement is illegal. Since sources have been provided that specify for each of the settlements listed that they are illegal under international law Shuki has now changed tactics and insisted that the source "prove" that the specific settlement is illegal. The issue here is not the one or two reverts Shuki has made in each of the articles or the content being reverted. The issue is that Shuki has obstinately filibustered what reliable sources have reported and demanded proof beyond the requirements of WP:V and WP:RS. The arbitration case specifically says that editors should be editing within the policies of the website, including NPOV, RS, and V. Here, Shuki is violating all three; NPOV by refusing to allow a super-majority view to be represented in the article, RS by demanding that a RS is not sufficient "proof" on Misplaced Pages, V by repeatedly removing material cited to verifiable reliable sources.

Reply to Shuki's statement: The RFC had nothing to do with the legal status of the settlements or how that should be covered. And it is not an exceptional claim that Israeli settlements are illegal, and even if it were reliable sources were provided. The text is not discussing Israeli law but international law, so Israel's High Court's rulings on the legality under Israeli law is immaterial. None of this addresses the issue though, that you have repeatedly filibustered the inclusion of reliably sourced material for pure POV reasons. nableezy - 19:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Gatoclass: How much emphasis should be put on the material is certainly something that is strictly a content dispute, but Shuki has not been simply moving this information from the lead into the body, Shuki has been filibustering the content from appearing anywhere in the article. Is edit-warring the only thing that is actionable under ARBPIA? Is a systematic campaign to violate core policies of this website not actionable? Is everything that is not edit-warring a "content dispute"? nableezy - 04:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Gatoclass, each of those diffs is of Shuki completely removing the content on legality, claiming that because the source does not "prove" it is illegal it is not acceptable. The only reason there are not more diffs is because I have not made any other edits as I would rather not have edits to the 200 or so articles on Israeli settlements be reverted without cause. Shuki is demanding that a source provide "proof" that the settlement is illegal, that it must reference a specific court decision that says that specific settlement is illegal (see , where that argument is made). Shuki is completely disregarding what RS says and removing content that says "X is illegal" and the source that says "X is illegal". But if this simply a "content dispute" then there is not really much of a point of any of this. If a user can simply just say no and block what reliable sources say from appearing in an article then this whole system is ****ed. We have had lengthy topic bans for making too many reverts, but things like this just get brushed away as "content disputes", which lead to, guess what, more reverts. nableezy - 05:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

And Gatoclass, not only has Shuki rejected sources that say all Israeli settlements are illegal, he or she has further rejected sources that say specific settlements are illegal if that source does not provide "proof" that the settlement is illegal. Each of the edits listed above are removals of sources that say the specific settlement is illegal. nableezy - 05:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to respond to many of the comments below. It is understandable that people come to the aid of what they perceive to be an ally. I'll just note that many of these same editors also came to the defense of the sock of a banned editor at a recent SPI, claiming that I was attempting to remove an opposing editor. That may well be the end result, but my purpose here is simple. Shuki's edits have violated a number of core policies of this website in contravention of ARBPIA. If there are editors that wish to show how that is not true they should make that case. Making this about me does not help anything. nableezy - 06:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Stifle: I understand it is easier to say "a pox on both your houses", but if you do so you are effectively saying that it is more important that there is an appearance of an equal application of the rules than it is to actually have an equal application of the rules. I have added well-sourced material about these settlements. The material I added is not "POV", it contains both the majority POV and Israel's by saying that they are illegal under international law though Israel disputes this. The material is both notable and verifiable, in fact every BBC story about a settlement contains that very same information. Shuki has removed notable, relevant, reliably sourced material from a number of articles and has done so by twisting policy such as RS and V or by giving no policy based reason for such removals. Regardless of Shuki's and Ynhockey's absurd comments about this material being "REDFLAG", there are countless reliable sources that flat out say that all Israeli settlements are illegal under international law; to record that in supposed "encyclopedia" articles cannot be seen as disruptive unless "disruption" is defined as anything the extreme right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum does not like. I understand that you all are not supposed to adjudicate "content disputes", but that does not mean you cannot actually look at the content. The material I added is backed by literally hundreds of reliable sources. Shuki removed that material on the most specious of reasons and has done so repeatedly. If people are free to simply remove whatever information they like without regard to how well sourced it is then this place truly is a complete waste of time and fails its goal of providing an educational resource. If you or any other admin is actually serious about creating an "encyclopedia" then you should not, no cannot, tolerate such behavior as repeatedly removing well-sourced content. Our "sins" are not all equal here. You have on hand a user adding well-sourced content. You have another user twisting policy and filibustering the inclusion of that well-sourced material. Shuki has in the past removed sources that say all Israeli settlements are illegal because they dont say that specific settlement is illegal. Now, the removals are of sources that say that the specific settlement is illegal because the source does not supposedly "prove" that and does not cite a specific court case saying that the specific settlement is illegal. That is plainly an absurd reason. If you want to treat both the person adding well-sourced material and the person removing it for absurd, ideological reasons then topic-ban us both. If, however, you want to ensure that our articles follow the policies of this website then I invite you to take a closer look at the circumstances. We are not guilty of the same sins here, and treating us as though we were may be easy but is without justification. nableezy - 14:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Stifle: I would like to know what exactly you say I am at fault of. I added sources that say specific Israeli settlements are illegal under international law. Almost 5 years ago Shuki reverted the same information asking that a source be provided. I provided that source. Shuki has since shifted the goalposts writing that the source must "prove" that Ariel is illegal under international law. No sane person can read WP:V or WP:RS and come to any such conclusion. What exactly did I do wrong here? nableezy - 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

Nableezy has never shown any attempt to collaborate and make reasonable efforts with other editors. Nableezy also forgot to mention that he is violating the closure of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Israeli settlements. Since he 'lost' that RfC he started, he has wasted no time in opening a new front with his typical and documented battleground mentality. Nableezy is ~~one of~~ the most negative editor I have met on WP and has nothing good to say on articles. It is not 'fun' to edit with people who hold this attitude for long. Most people mellow out and learn to work with editors with opposing POVs, Nableezy simply cannot. I wish I could say he was pro-Palestinian, but even a superficial glance at his contributions show that he has nothing positive to say on Palestinian pages, and is merely a general SPA for including controversial negative material into Israeli articles. Until now, there was no 'BLP' for geographical places, and because of him, I think there should be one. Nableezy, blocked numerous times for problematic behavior, is himself in violation of AE with his insertion of negative boilerplate WP:REDFLAG material. Specifically, his latest non-consensus solo effort, is to find any mention of a locality that also says that it is illegal. No proof of any court action specifically declaring this and definitely in contrast to many court cases with the Israeli Supreme Court that has decided whether a place is illegal (part of Amona that was in fact torn down) or not (Revava won a libel case against Peace Now for making false claims of its 'illegality').

I have certainly not changed any tactics, thanks for pre-empting me here with what I had just accused Nableezy on another page, I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing. There is no such thing as 'super-majority' and the RfC Nableezy filed failed to approve that peculiar non-existent policy. --Shuki (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Nableezy, your RfC was not clear from the beginning, and I'll say that is the reason it failed, and failed to go anywhere constructive and why I (and most anyone not in your POV) was reluctant to take part for so long. --Shuki (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Stifle and others including Nableezy. Peculiar the accusations and follow-up accusations as well. One only needs to look at what both of us do simultaneously to see who collaborates with others and improve WP, and who is merely here to get blood to push his interests. On 18 July at 19:19, at the same time that Nableezy is putting the final touches on this repeat AE against me filed 5 minutes later (and sadly against himself as well - People who live in glass houses should not throw stones), I can be found collaborating with an 'opposing' editor here.

2nd reply, to Stifle, to 'topic-ban us both' Nableezy, and 'take one for the team' RomaC. I certainly do not believe in WP suicide, but we know that Nableezy is ready for martyrdom with many uncivil remarks made and threatened retirement when he was blocked and then surprisingly weirdly unblocked early at the beginning of the year. Frankly, I know that most 'Israeli cities, villages, towns, and more in the West Bank / Judea and Samaria Area' articles are not on the watchlists of many, if at all, and no one has been contributing to the topic of 'Israeli settlements' articles as much as me though I wish I had more help. I admit to the kneejerk reaction to what I saw Nableezy doing (evidently and his admitted flooding of articles with tendentious boilerplate one liners, contrary to Sandstein's closing RfC recommendation to deal with each issue on a case-by-case basis) was to quickly make those reverts, and hopefully merely temporarily freeze him on his admitted conquest to add it to all 200+ articles, so that perhaps the WP community could handle this much better with, hold on, collaboration and consensus. I was not going to follow him around on each page to put it in another section, given that some editors have an issue with that too - something that calm consensus should decide. I cannot recall too many instances in which we have seen a reasonable and rational Nableezy, wanting to accomplish anything except to get is POV included and he only bothers to behave if others are watching too. To his credit, and perhaps the exception that proves the rule, he did start the RfC. Unfortunately, he did not bother to pursue further dispute resolution given his failure with the RfC.

3rd, to Stifle, I do not see how a three month topic ban is proportional to merely reverting six articles once and with my long-term record which is centred primarily around creating, improving and maintaining Israeli geography articles. Since coming out of my single 1RR 'topic ban', I have managed to keep that 1RR behaviour intact except for a repeat SPA anon who was/is repeatedly just making a mess on three articles and has been reverted by others as well. On the other hand, comparing me with Nableezy who was;

topic banned for two months
blocked and topic 1RR and violates it leading to
2month topic ban and then
comes out of his most recent two WP:ARBPIA topic ban swinging to which I alerted the collaboration project and
a very SPECIAL MENTION making blanket reverts not unlike what he is accusing me of doing scroll to bottom to the edit comments sources call this place a Palestinian village (?!)

and his repeated use of AE for the hunt (of me), even though warned only a month ago from making non-actionable claims

by closing admin. Stifle, does that warning count for anything?

The proper thing to do would have been for Nableezy to make another RfC, or use other dispute resolution mechanism to engage editors in this issue, or perhaps get other advice from a mentor, or like-minded but mature editor or admin. I am not interested in 'taking anyone down with me' and frankly, I don't care to see Nableezy topic banned either (and I have tried unsuccessfully in the past to suggest he make positive contributions instead of only the negative edits that he characterizes him). Peace, here on WP and in Israel, will not be made by one side attacking the other but by each side wanting to progress and improve. If I could sanction Nableezy, it would be to A) get him to join Misplaced Pages:Palestine, and B1) improve above stub status 200 Palestinian locality articles (in contrast to the 200 Israeli articles he was beginning to edit), or alternatively B2) create 100 new 'pro'-Arab/Palestinian articles starting with the requested ones on WP:Palestine (not anti-Israel ones) or alternatively B3) work on getting GA status for five Arab/Palestinian articles of his choice (preferably ones that promote Arab issues, and do not include anything about 'international law', warfare and blood). Instead, until then, I see this as another frivolous attempt ato bully me and scare others as well. Many have come to support me here (surprisingly, thank you and I have not emailed or canvassed anyone either) and few have come to back Nableezy up, and there is no shortage of editors who are on 'his side'. It is a fact that the six accused edits mentioned are definitely not 'an attempt by me at filibustering', that while my accuser prefers otherwise, even if I have shown to accept inserting material my personal POV would rather not have included and I collaborate. --Shuki (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki

Comment by Malik Shabazz

Shuki, where does WP:V or WP:RS require that a source "not just in passing"? I seem to remember you made the opposite argument in the past. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:REDFLAG --Shuki (talk) 20:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The assertion that Israeli settlements are illegal under the Geneva conventions is an "exceptional claim"? Wow. Just wow.

I'm sorry, Shuki, but REDFLAG doesn't say what you think it says, and you don't get to set your own bar for which sources are acceptable and which aren't. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Mbz1

The issues raised in this request are issues related to the contested content of a few articles, and should be discussed on the articles talk pages as such. IMO the request should be closed as non actionable because Shuki has never violated any policy.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

On a side note I am surprised that Nableezy while filing the request about Shuki has no problems with IP, who inserts unsourced POV to the same articles with the edit summaries like this one for example: "an illegal settlement built on a stolen and occupied land is NOT a villeinage!!!! stop promoting lies violating wikipedias terms and the international law!!!!". --Mbz1 (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Response to Gatoclass question about Shuki editing against consensus. No, they did not, just the opposite. Please take a look at one of the articles in question talk page's discussion. Nableezy started it just few hours before he filed this AE, and there's no consensus there. As user:Noon put it:
Israeli settlement is the FIRST descriptor of this locality in this article. Click it and you'll get all arguments regarding settlements. No need to repeat it again and again. This is what links are for in wiki article, unless you wish to make a non neutral point.
I am not going to discuss the fairness and/or correctness of user:Noon's statement because it does not belong to AE. It is a content dispute, which cannot be resolved through arbitration enforcement. --Mbz1 (talk) 05:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I really liked Shuki's proposal about sanctions for Nableezy. In general I believe that topic bans should be imposed rarely, if there's absolutely no other choice. I believe uninvolved admins should be more creative in the sanctioning of the involved editors. I actually liked how Tznkai topic banned Supreme_Deliciousness:

"This topic ban will run for 30 days from 00:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC) or until I see one of the following: A comprehensive and good faith proposal for a neutral standard on naming conventions, to be submitted for the consideration of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration|The Israel Palestine Collaboration WikiProject; a comprehensive and good faith proposal for a neutral standard on how images are chosen for Levant cuisine, to be submitted for the consideration of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration|The Israel Palestine Collaboration WikiProject; or a 3000 word essay on the meaning and importance of assuming good faith and avoiding battleground behavior."

So I concur with Shuki proposal about sanctions for Nableezy. It will help Nableezy to avoid being anti-Israeli single purpose account, and it is always the right thing to do. --Mbz1 (talk) 02:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

To the closing administrator. I would like to stress out three important points provided by me and others as a small summary:

Nableezy filed this AE at 19:24, 18 July 2010 less than 4 hours after he started the discussion on the issue at the article's talk page, and failed to get consensus. It is not the way to proceed. It was neither an emergency, nor BLP, nor something else extraordinary that could not have waited for a few days. This request created unwanted wiki drama, that could have been avoided by a simple discussion.

Every article in question, except one, is linked to Israeli settlement. Israeli settlement article provides all information about Israeli settlements therefore there's no need to repeat it in every article. As somebody has written ""International law" is a tricky thing that people claim to know, but there has been no binding court case on the matter, and considerable legal debate. The Israeli settlement article discusses the complex legal issues at length", and it is the place to learn about it. The one that is not linked to Israeli settlement is linked to Community settlement (Israel), and I am not sure how it got to Nableezy's request in a first place.

According to the above this AE against Shuki should be closed as non actionable. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

To the closing uninvolved admins, I am not going to jump into your space as very much involved Gatoclass did, but I do agree with him: banned editors should know what they are banned for. Shuki has done absolutely nothing wrong at all. The issue of the request is a content dispute, which could not and should not be enforced by AE. Nableezy did not make nearly enough efforts to resolve the issue at the article talk pages before bringing the matter up to AE. He demonstrated a battleground behavior, and it is not first time he files non actionable, time-wasting AE. That's why IMO Nableezy should be given 2 weeks symbolic ban on AE just to make him give it another thought before he files another AE. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

While I certainly agree that the status of all such settlements in international law should be outlined somewhere in the relevant articles, it doesn't strike me as imperative that this status be noted in the intro, unless perhaps the intro is long and/or the settlement a particular source of friction. IMO, it's sufficient that the status of such settlements be referred to somewhere in the body of the article. In any case, this looks to me like a run-of-the-mill content dispute, and I don't see anything actionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Nableezy's questions - firstly, your diffs do not demonstrate that Shuki has been "filibustering the content from appearing anywhere in the article". If he has done so, that may be an issue worth addressing, but I think you would need a pretty strong case, ie lots of diffs, to demonstrate that and you haven't provided any. In regards to your other question: Is a systematic campaign to violate core policies of this website not actionable? I would say it is, or should be, actionable, but again it would have to be clearly demonstrated. Perhaps, say, if you could demonstrate a persistent defying of consensus across multiple pages, that could be considered disruptive. But ultimately a lot will depend on the view of the closing admin. Gatoclass (talk) 05:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Having just read Shuki's comments above, I am obliged to amend my position. I consider Shuki's statement that "I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing" to be an absurdity, as it's clear that if a reliable source states that all Israeli settlements in area x are illegal, one does not need to find a source which specifically mentions that settlement y in area x is illegal. If Shuki has been reverting based on such specious reasoning, that could certainly in my view be considered disruptive and thereby sanctionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 05:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

an Israeli organization .... was forced to pay damages and issue a public apology to settlers after falsely claiming that a particular settlement was built illegally on private Palestinian land - Ynhockey.

Well, fine, but that is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Sources can always be wrong, we knew that. The issue here is that Shuki is demanding a higher burden of proof for the inclusion of material than is required by WP:RS. He is demanding that sources specifically state that a given settlement is "illegal", when logically it is only necessary to demonstrate that a settlement is in the occupied territories to demonstrate its illegality. A source could of course be wrong in making either statement, so that's an entirely separate issue. Gatoclass (talk) 11:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

People need to stop making arguments for their take on the content dispute since that it not the scope of these requests - Cptnono.

Cptnono, there is a difference between a content dispute and sheer illogic. If someone holds a position that is plainly logically fallacious, and maintains that position even after having its erroneous nature pointed out to him, that has ceased to be a mere content dispute and become disruption. In this case, Shuki's position is rendered untenable by simple logical deduction:

All Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are illegal under international law.
This is an Israeli settlement in the occupied territories.
This is an illegal Israeli settlement.

There can therefore be no justification for Shuki's claim that Nableezy is required to produce sources that state a particular settlement is illegal. Nableezy only needs to produce a source which states that the settlement is in the occupied territories, because its illegality is a function of its location. If Shuki is prepared to acknowledge his error and agree to stop reverting on those grounds, perhaps there is no need for further action here. If however he is going to insist on maintaining his current view, I think that would be grounds for imposing further sanctions. Gatoclass (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Gatoclass is in violation of WP:GAME. Nableezy's adding of "illegal under international law " to the first -- I repeat: 1st -- paragraph of dozens of articles is exceptionally poor form after the joint RFC to promote this action failed. Gatoclass, Nableezy, Tiamut, and co. support of of this collab RFC did not sway the general public and Gatoclass's comments here are an ARBPIA violation of WP:GAME. i.e. to promote a sanction on Shuki after failing to get the results he was looking for through the proper course of action (RFC, dispute resolution) is a bad faith attempt to use the policies of wikipedia. Thank you. Jaakobou 03:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"the general public", that's a good one! RomaC 03:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Ynhockey

While it pains me to say so, I have to agree with Shuki's assessment of Nableezy's general editing practices (although I disapprove of the specific terms used). It is unfortunate that Nableezy has chosen not to make constructive contributions to articles about settlements, but rather to go out of his way to "prove" that they are illegal. Even if, theoretically, ample sources could be provided and the significance of this statement could be proven, it still seems like a WP:BATTLE action to just go around articles about settlements saying they're illegal and adding no other content. This WP:AE request seems like yet another piece of WikiDrama to get an editor from "the other side" banned and thus have a certain version of the article say. If Nableezy continues to edit settlement-related articles, I sincerely hope that he invests more resources into improving sections about the history, geography and culture of settlements. —Ynhockey 04:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a relevant note, although this might not belong at WP:AE, but I thought it more appropriate to post it here than on user talk: As Shuki noted, an Israeli organization (Peace Now) was forced to pay damages and issue a public apology to settlers after falsely claiming that a particular settlement was built illegally on private Palestinian land (Hebrew article). What I am saying is that this is an extremely sensitive issue that is essentially similar to WP:BLP (which was created, in part, to avoid legal action against WMF), and it is important that each settlement is examined on a case-by-case basis. —Ynhockey 16:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Note to Stifle: I will respect any decision you make, but ask you to look at what each editor has done for the articles in question. In fact, as far as I can tell, Shuki has singlehandedly written most of the content in settlement-related articles. As I noted above, Nableezy has unfortunately failed to make any contributions to these articles. I ask that this is taken into account in any decision you make. —Ynhockey 18:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? nableezy was contributing to the settlement articles by adding the entire worldview with reliable sources. And the sourced worldview was removed by Shuki. Who is the one that has been trying to contribute to the articles here? and who is the one who has been tampering the articles here? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Cptnono

I hope that any request for enforcement against Nableezy will not look like reprisal since it has been coming for some time now.

The RfC closure set a very good chance to do some case by case basis with a firm reminder not to start any shenanigans. This should have been handled better and Shuki should not be shouldering the brunt of the blame.Cptnono (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I think Gilsa makes a point that the wording and the sources have been questioned. Editors continuing to stick them in on a mad spree after a contentious RfC is not the way to go about doing things. Shuki was reverting what he saw as contentious edits inserted on multiple articles and now he gets an AE for being a POV pusher essentially. Bad form and Shuki shouldn;t have even been brought here. A little bit of talk page would be better but unfortunately that hardly stops the wackiness going on in this topic area.Cptnono (talk) 06:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

People need to stop making arguments for their take on the content dispute since that it not the scope of these requests.Cptnono (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Stop discussing content here, Gatoclass. Not everyone agrees with it so it is therefore contentious. Methods used to include or removed that contentious material are the concern. Maybe editors feeling so strongly that their edits can be defended with assertions such as shear logic is the problem since their are channels in place for content disputes which should not be ignored. Unless of course the purpose is to set a precedent (Shuki was wrong therefore everything must be mentioned as "occupied"). Basically what I am saying is that Shuki is allowed to revert bold edits. Nableezy is free to seek other channels to include it if that is done. There is not an overuse of the revert function and Shuki is not alone so why make such sweeping changes when there is an ongoing dispute? And I agree that AE needs to get a little tougher on editors who have repeatedly been blocked or received sanctions if it is shown that they have crossed the line. Cptnono (talk) 04:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)\

Why Nbaleezy is being scrutinized has come up here. I really don't think it matters if Gatoclass wants to switch into admin mode and comment down there so fine I will provide some diffs. Nableezy and I were discussing this on my talk page and he also asked for some evidence of what I thought was his wrongdoing. My thoughts on it are that he needlessly reverts and does not participate with a collaborative mindset. If Shuki is POV pushing than Nableezy surely is but if both of them stop reverting and finding other methods I don't care that much about what they do.

His response was typical for him with deflection and other assertions such as: It was propaganda (kind of a dirty word here), It was sourced (disregarding that the sources have been questioned and that we should not be mirroring the tone of biased sources), reverts were to a troll (even though he has edited in tandem with an IP that others have accused of being a troll), and so on. I'm not going to list diffs of accusations of edit warring not related to the subtopic this AE gets into, civility, gaming, outing , and other potential problems since Stifle might have a good suggestion and overdoing the diffs would just lead to needless mudslinging. What is an obvious problem is that Nableezy came off of a restriction and within a day started rocking the boat in issues dealing with the legality of places, occupation, and settlers. Regardless of his feelings, he needs to stop hitting the revert button.

I think a full-on topic ban would be fine but I am obviously frustrated with him and Stifle's idea might work. I also think a 1rr would be good. For Shuki, if he is reverting as much as Nableezy than he should suffer similar consequences. I don't buy any argument that says the listed reverts show him as POV pusher but I am admittedly biased.

Diffs and thoughts and stuff

*Ateret (195.50.69.30 was already active here making contentious edits about the same thing): Bold edit Revert of Shuki's partial revert Talk page used after reverting and discussion follows about the source.

Ariel (city): Bold edit even though there is already questions about the use of the source in another article Revert of Shuki's partial revert Talk page not used.
Ma'ale Adumim: Again and again. Talk page again used after the reverting in regards to where the info was placed. It does not appear that some involved realized there was even a somewhat related discussion ongoing at another article. The last message on this talk page regarding the term "occupied" was a week before the edit was made.
Ariel: again and again
Halamish (this one is interesting because there was already an ongoing edit war between Shuki and 195.50.69.30 over the same thing): same edit Revert of tagging for failed verification (me this time)revert of my removal since the tag was removed partial revert of another editor (albeit it guideline based) Talk page discussion started by me. Nableezy jumped on after reverting and failed to mention that the same source and edit was already being questioned elsewhere.
Katzrin (this one involved several editors including Shuki): an edit regarding settlement revert of another editor revert (guideline based but a tag or providing a source himself might have worked instead) Talk page at least used even though it did not address that this sort of problem was ongoing.
Hebron (more reversions based on "settlement" and the map. All to an IP using pop-ups without a note in the edit summary, their page, or the article's talk page. This should have been easy enough to address once to get it fixed.)
Mount Hermon (More with the settlement, occupied, where it is issue. Supreme Deliciousness pops up in this one like he does in a handful of Nableezy's edit wars. Jiujitsuguy was also active.):revert of an editor revert of another editor an IP one of the previous editors
Neve Ativ (Nableezy edit warring over a line with another editor while talk page discussion was ongoing. Supreme Deliciousness stepped in and Nableezy eventually reported the other editor for edit warring. Agree with Nableezy that it could be included but the edit warring was not needed):revert
Nableezy, Supreme Deliciousness, and Shuki reverted eachother at Ortal, Golan Heights after the RfC was closed They were using talk so why didn't they just chill out and work towards finding a solution?
Tourism in Israel saw a slow edit war of reverts, restorations, and partials, IMO, based on legalities and where the places are. The first was jumping into an already ongoing revertfest with political disclaimers less than a day after coming off of a two month arbitration enforced article topic ban in the topic area.
Reverting at Golan Heights over the Arabic translation coming first (presumably since it is Syrian and not Israeli under intl law). It sounds like there was a discussion so that is good but this is just sill and if it is being edit warred over people need to put in a hidden comment or link to the discussion in the edit summary. I slack of on making edit sumaries in gneral especially when it is IPs but I think this shows Nableezy's mentallity. (sporadic reverts of this stretch back for quite a bit)

Reply to Cptnonos "Diffs and thoughts and stuff" I have edited 1080 articles. I am interested in the Arab-Israeli conflict and so are many others, so those who are interested in the same topic will of course run into me on several articles. Now to Cptnonos accusations where he mentions my name:

I have edited the Mount Hermon article for a very long time, my first edit there was over a year ago. So I did not just "pop up" there just because nableezy edited it. And my edit there on the 7th July was not the same as Nableezys, they were two seperate edits. At the Golan Heights article there has been talks many times and at Mount Hermon talkpage we have had many talks about the issue, and I have participated at the talkpage discussions at both articles every single time. All reliable neutral sources show clearly that we can not say that the area is in Israel since that is against the entire international view (Npov). Also notice that at the Mount Hermon talkpage pushing for the Israeli pov is at least one topic banned sockpuppeteer Amoruso and his sock the Sipio account.

Concerning the Ortal, Golan Heights article, nableezy actually reverted himself there, back to Shukis verion, so there was no rv there from him. The problem there was that Shuki had changed position of the settlement and kibbutz and he had not gotten any consensus for the rearrangement yet he continued to change the position from the status quo. So why did he do this? I asked him repeatedly at the talkpage to show me at what time the "kibbutz" was before "settlement" but still he hasn't shown this til this day. And I did one rv at the 24th June and then almost one month later on 18th July did another rv and the only reason for the second rv was because he still after all this time hadn't shown me at the talkpage at what time exactly when both terms was in the article was the "kibbutz" before "settlement". Just like he right now hasn't answered to my latest post there. Also my last revert there at the time 18.32 18th July was by accident, I unintentionally pressed the rollback button, but I reverted back to his version and explained this to him:

Concerning Neve Ativ, I did not just "stepp in" there, as I will explain below that I am familiar with Jubata ez Zeit and Neve Ativ. A newly registered account Martinakohl came and removed that Neve ativ was built on top of Jubata ez Zeit, he claimed that Marsad was an unreliable source so Nableezy added a source from cambridge university but the newly registered account continued to remove this clearly reliable source several times and also edit warred with a user named Jeff G. and several IPs to remove the sourced information. And I knew in advance that Neve Ativ was built on Jubata ez Zeit because it was me who started the Jubata ez Zeit article, and I had edited the Neve Ativ article before adding this info:, and I also had another source to confirm the same thing from the Jubata article, so I added the other source and I explained at the talkpage and just because the title of the book source I added was called "Settlements and cult sites on Mount Hermon, Israel: Ituraean culture in the Hellenistic and Roman periods" , he removed it saying: "Jubata ez-Zeit is not a Roman village" which is complete nonsense since it has nothing to do with anything, the text I added to the article did not say it was Roman and the source in the book did not say it was Roman. He was blocked and then he created two sockpuppets to continue to forcibly removed the sourced content: . So in this "conflict" I made one rv and in that rv added another source and I participated at the talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if there was confusion. I wasn't trying to single you out here and I did not intend for it to an argument against your editing. I think you still make some mistakes. So does Jujitsuguy on the other side. Both of you have mirrored some bad habits seen in more experienced users like Nableezy but neither of you are under any scrutiny here.Cptnono (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gilisa

Yes, the removed material was sourced. However, the wording was far from being neutral. The international status of Ma'ale Adumim is far more complicated than these sources show. The USA discussed with Israel many times the possibility of acknowledging such cities as regular part of Israel, in fact, it's also discussed between Israel and the palestinian representatives.

Also, these sources are all from Guardian and BBC. While they are usually RS, they are not considered impartial in their attitude through Israel. Infact, once Israel submitted official complaint against the BBC for being biased against it. The BBC then was forced to establish a committee that scrutinized these complaints. They never published the committee's conclusions. If you search the web for it, you will find many reliable sources heavily doubt the neutrality of British media sources like the BBC and the Guardian about the I-P conflict. When it comes to settlements thing then no one is argue that the BBC came up with MA being considered as a settlement by the UN. But it does not represent the entire issue and the wording by itself is harsh and not neutral still.--Gilisa (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Jiujitsuguy

Funny how Nableezy’s name keeps popping up on these boards, over and over again, either as a complainant or respondent. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. It seems to me that he comes into this with soiled hands, edit warring while mastering the art of tag-teaming. Nableezy has adopted the Lord of the Flies approach to editing Misplaced Pages, reverting endlessly, baiting others into edit wars, tag-teaming and initiating harassing enforcement actions when things don’t quite go his way. The admin who rules on this case should also note that Nableezy has been indeffed (for threatening legal action, later lifted when withdrawn) has been blocked and subjected to lengthy topic bans. This is not exactly your model editor. As for the substantive issues involved, this is a content dispute in which Shuki has provided ample and cogent reasoning for his edits. If anyone should be sactioned, it is Nableezy who continuously uses these enforcement actions as tools of fear to silence his opposition.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 06:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Sean.hoyland

This is about policy compliance. We can't have people removing sourced information because the information isn't wearing a hijab or whatever the nothing-to-do-with-policy reason was here. Editors are obliged to edit according to policy. If they are upset by reliable sources saying that Israeli settlements are illegal and editors adding that information to articles there are plenty of other subjects for them to work on. What would happen I wonder if, rather than topic bans and such like, editors who find it difficult to comply with the discretionary sanctions were simply restricted from removing sourced material from articles ? They could add sourced material, reword existing material but not remove it altogether without calmly proceeding to the talk page and making their case. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Another alternative to the standard and clearly ineffective methods currently employed to deal with neutrality-challenged editors might be to require them to swop to 'the other side' of the conflict for a period. This is something I would really like to see happen personally. If an editor wants to blatantly ignore WP:COI, blatantly ignore the 'Editors counseled' section of the sanctions and consistently advocate for a side in a conflict as so many do then maybe there should be a cost to the editor. Perhaps they should have to advocate for 'the other side' too and the benefit should accrue to Misplaced Pages in the form of improved content and a general reduction in silliness. If an editor is genuinely here to build a better encyclopedia they shouldn't mind adding policy compliant material for a period even if it comes from sources they don't like such as..um..the BBC and even if it makes 'their side' look bad in their eyes. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Epeefleche

When we have highly disruptive editors (as in, those who have been blocked three times already this year) elevating their content disputes to non-actionable complaints, in apparent efforts to further their own POV, we have a wasteful time-suck. Perhaps it's time to consider ways to slow down our most disruptive editors; especially those who gravitate towards controversial areas such as the I-P area. Something that slows down those editors who have already been blocked 3 times in 2010, say, from taking any of various steps that lead to wastes of time for the community at large (ARE, AfD, etc., in the I-P area). In the U.S., felons are prohibited from voting in many elections. And at wikipedia, when articles are controversial, we limit editing to certain editors who we view as more trustworthy -- such as non-IPs. Extending those concepts here might prove beneficial.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Misarxist

Just over a week ago Shuki came of a 3 month 1r restriction (AE result) this doesn't appear to have sunk in as since then:

Halamish edit warring over several days on same point , & with no attempt to discuss on talk page.
Israeli settler violence unactioned 3r violation , & again no discussion.

He just doesn't seem to be here to edit collaboratively and probably requires a topic ban rather than another revert restriction. Misarxist (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to get into your space I will move my comment, if you'd like me to, but did you notice by any chance that in first three examples of so called edit warring you provided, Shuki reverted IP vandal, who was reverted by quite a few other editors, me including, as well. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Re the admin comments about 'content dispute', obviously there is disagreement about the content, but the complaint is about straight-foward multiple reverts of sourced content without discussion. As I noted above (even with Mbz1's note, yes that's not as simple as I claimed, but the 3r example is undeniable) we are talking about an a know tendentious edit-warrior. There doesn't seem to be any real argument about Shuki being sanctioned again. But the complaints about Nableezey's record (the bulk of the responses here) are not relevant to that. And if Nableezey's conduct is at fault there's going to to need to be evidence cited, the fact that he's in a dispute with a tendentious nationalist editor isn't good enough in itself. Also while the underlying and widespread dispute does need to be dealt with, this simply isn't the right venue. Misarxist (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by AMuseo.

Since the status of all land that has been conquered in a defensive war is a complex matter and the status of the West Bank finds no consensus among international legal experts, it is POV pushing to write the kind of statement that User:Nableezy is defending. I do not see nableezy questioning the status of the Western Sahara, or of Tibet, or criticizing the recent genocidal attack on the Tamil. He writes on behalf of a political cause dear to his heart. This does not make him a useful colleague. You can, after all, always find newspaper articles making flat assertions about just about anything. this is not scholarship. A simple statement that there is no consensus regarding the legal status of the West Bank would be better and could be well-supported. But I do not expect scholarship or balance from Nableezy. He is a highly contentions editor, the kind that drives moderate, informed editors from Misplaced Pages. Actually, I have come to believe that it is his goal to make editing so unpleasant that moderate people will go away, leaving the field open to him to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground to wage a Palestinian proxy war.AMuseo (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Fandriampahalamana

Although I wasn't involved in the articles mentioned above, I do feel it necessary to decry Nableezy's disruptive edit habits and intimidation of editors. On the Helen Thomas article while I explained every move I made, he vandalized my edits without any explanation, or with meaningless ones which is even worse. Once, it could have been explained away, but not a pattern of them. Then he had the gall to try to intimidate me by pretending that he is an administrator and admonishing me (for doing what is right) when he should have admonished himself for editing in bad faith. On one edit on July 13 (not pertaining to me) seeing that he can’t have it his way, he then made another controversial edit slanting the lead and explaining it with "all right, you want specifics add specifics, not just one part of the story." He seems to be using Misplaced Pages to tell the story the way he wants it to be told, as he actually admitted in a moment of truth and exasperation, of if you're getting it your way then I'll get it also my way. He sees everything as "your way" or "my way". I think he is unhelpful and a drain on controversial articles. Fandriampahalamana (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Peter Cohen

It's unfortunate that this request is following the usual pattern of people's views on Shuki's conduct being 100% corfrelated with their views on the IP dispute. I regret that I'm conforming to that pattern. Looking at the last edits listed by Nableezy, I see that theis effect is to remove any mention of the status of these settlements under international law. It has to be a notable effect about these places that they are considered illegal by major international institutions that pronounce on and enforce international law. The major institutions I have in mind are such organs ases of the UNSC, the high-contracting parties to the Geneva Conventions, the ICC, ICJ etc. When all those that pronounce on the matter say the settlements are illegal and none dissents, then the fact has to be mentioned in the articles. To remove any such mention is a clear violation of WP:NPOV.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Noon: I'm surprised by your reasoning. The quote from Nableezy indicates that there are a number of banned or permanently blocked editors who persist in creating sockpuppets in order to carry on distorting Misplaced Pages in favour of their political position. Persistent sockpuppeteers are damaging to Misplaced Pages. They increase the appearance of conflict between legitimate editors and anyone who uses SPI/CU to root out these users is to be praised. Accusations by the likes of Stellarkid who was a puppet of a user banned for participating in a drive by an external organisation to distort the content of Misplaced Pages have a wholly deleterious effect on the project. The fact that they have edit-warring and the reporting of legitimate users to the various admin boards as weapons is just evidence that thre is an organised effort to malign political opponents. One of those opponents should not be criticised for pointing this out. That certain editors leap to the defence of such sockpuppeteers also raises the question as to whether they are here to improve Misplaced Pages or whether they are themselves part of the effort to disrupt the project.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Brewcrewer

As this is apparently the place to hang out these days, I feel obliged to chime in lest people forget my existence. Unlike some other editors here who feel this is an content related dispute and should be closed as unactionable, I'm of the position that some action should take place as a result of this report.

The editor who filed the report insists that the first three words of any article on an Israeli entity beyond the '48 border should be "illegal settlement". This position has resulted in lots of edit warring. Numerous editors and a RFC later (linked above) have revealed a consensus that although the argument for illegality should clearly be included in an article, it should not be the first three words, per WP:NPOV.

Nevertheless, Nableezy still insists that "illegal" be in the opening sentence and any position taken to the contrary is "stupid". Not only is it "stupid", arguing that it does not belong in the first sentence is an ARBCOM violation.

Nableezy claims that Shuki wants to remove any mention of illegality of article, but that's blatantly false. Each article linked by Nableezy mentions the illegality issue, some even have an entire section discussing the illegality argument.

Thus, what we have here is a blatantly frivolous AE report filed by one of the most prolific AE filers, who should know better. Some sort of action should be taken so that this huge waste of time does not reoccur. Perhaps an AE ban? --brew crewer (yada, yada) 14:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, sorry for placing this statement here, but that is simply not true. Nowhere did the RFC say that the words "illegal settlement" should be used as the first three words, legality was not even the topic of the RFC (which, oh by the way, certainly did not result in the consensus that you claim). And nowhere in the articles Ofra, Ariel (city), Amona, or Immanuel (town) is the legal status discussed. Kindly do not misrepresent what I have written or the RFC or the content of the articles. nableezy - 14:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The first two links you brought as the basis for your claim have entire sections catered to the illegality issue. I don't plan on spending more time litigating and word playing. This has wasted enough time already.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 14:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And the rest of them? You wrote "Each article linked by Nableezy mentions the illegality issue". Is that or is that not true? And you did not address the gross misrepresentation of the RFC. I guess that is "word playing". nableezy - 14:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by RomaC

Concur with Peter Cohen above on all points. See many examples of Israel saying A and the rest of the world saying B, and some editors pushing A first, then a mention of B, then a rebuttal per A as "neutral." As for the admin suggestion below re: possible concurrent 3-month blocks, excuse my cynicism but I imagine Shuki might agree to "take one for the team" and be blocked if Nableezy were also taken out. There are few topic areas with nearly as much concerted partisan activity as Israel-Palestine. Yes, Nableezy may be biased, but he's also badly outnumbered which makes him sort of stick out in these content disputes. Respectfully, RomaC 14:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Noon

As I understand the AE regarding the I-P articles, one of its purposes was to facilitate a reasonable editing atmosphere in this contentious area. Contributors who exhibited "battleground" mentality and aggressive behaviour were banned or were blocked for a long period of time. In contrast to this purpose, the filing party of this request is engaged for a long time in trying to get the upper hand in content disputes by making considarable efforts to ban his opponents or block them indefinitely. Just one sample illustration of his "battleground mentality" may be found here, where he says: "There were three people who had pushed for my first topic ban. One of those was later blocked as a sock of NoCal100, the one who filed the complaint has now been blocked as a sock of Dajudem/Tundrabuggy, and the last is still taking aim at me." WP is not a battleground nor a venue for shooting ducks as done in Luna Parks. It looks as if the filing party spends most of his energy either to make small controversial edits to push his political views, while violating the fundamental WP:NPOV policy, or in targetting disruptively his opponents, espacially those who dare criticizing or reporting him, until they get out of his way. Content should adhere WP:NPOV not only in the facts and refs, but also in the tone of what is written, and how and where the facts are presented (ie. either in the lead, or as a link to the relevant article where all POVs are presented, or in a separate section in the same article where more views can be presented). accordingly, and for the huge waste of time dealing with this unwarranted request, it seems that the filing party fails to adhere to the purpose of building an encyclopedia, and the I-P AE penalty guidelines may apply to him. Noon (talk) 16:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed this "and the last is still taking aim at me" too, and I agree it is yet another example of a battleground behavior by user:Nableezy--Mbz1 (talk) 16:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

@ Peter Cohen regarding this quote: Please listen to the music, imagine the moving targets, listen to the 'shootings', listen to the happy victory shouts, imagine the sniper tracing and targetting his 'enemies' above earth and in war tunnels, look at the sparkling eyes of this sniper when he realizes that some 'enemy troops' are still there hiding disguised somewhere or trying to sneak away... don't you hear real sounds of WAR here in Misplaced Pages? and this is just one example I've found in few minutes.

In my opinion this battlefield mentality is what the Arbitration Committee tried to stop, or, at least, significantely reduce, in their harsh sanctions in the I-P case and its subsequent AE mechanism.

There is no place for such a war mentality when trying to build a useful and accurate encyclopedia. Noon (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Supreme Deliciousness

Stifle, Nableezy has not done anything wrong here, while Shuki has been removing sourced information. Please look at the real issue instead of what other people say here at this enforcement. Every time there is a pro-Israeli editor up for enforcement, the same group of people show up in defense of that editor. Please look at the real issue here instead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Stifle, please think about what you are saying, you are talking about a sanction on a user for adding the entire international view with a reliable source into an article. This is not a content dispute, when someone removes the entire worldview that is sourced with a reliable source - that's censorship, you can not impose some kind of "collective punishment" here. Also agree with Gatoclass, please explain your comments about this in more detail, "each side is at fault" is vague. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional comment by Jiujitsuguy

When evaluating sanctions, prior disciplinary history should be factored in. A look at Shuki’s record reveals two relatively short blocks, the last of which occurred more than a year ago This is an indication that Shuki is adhering to wiki policy and guidelines. By contrast, Nableezy’s block history is a mess, full of lengthy blocks and topic bans In fact, Nableezy has just come off a topic ban. In addition, Nableezy has previously been indefinitely blocked for threatening legal action against Misplaced Pages. It was lifted when he withdrew his threat but it shows that he has lost sight of reality and can not distinguish between the real and virtual worlds. It is clear from his prior sanction history that this is an editor who takes a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing with a “take no prisoners” mentality. Clearly, under the totality of circumstances, the person who deserves to be permanently banned from the topic area is Nableezy.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You forgot Shukis recent 3 month 1rvpd restriction --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

When you are a recidivist, like Nableezy, when your block log history reads like a lengthy rap sheet, like Nableezy’s when you find yourself on these boards on a daily basis, either as a respondent or complainant, like Nableezy, When you come into every I-A article with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, like Nableezy, when an editor loses his grip on reality and threatens to sue Misplaced Pages, as Nableezy has, it’s time to ask; Is this a productive editor or a disruptive one? I leave it to the admins to decide.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Pantherskin

I have not encountered Shuki in the past, although it is clear from the diffs provided that he has a strong POV which is reflected in his edits. On the other side, he is prolific content contributor in the Israel content area, and most of his edits clearly improve the enyclopedia. Regarding Nableezy I have encountered him and again it is clear that his edits reflect his strong POV. That in itself is not necessarily a problem (although usually it is), but when coupled with incivility and combative language (, - some recent example, but from cases clearly a pattern), speculations and accusations about the ulterior motives of other editors (, ) it becomes a problem as it makes collaborative editing difficult to impossible. I am ignoring here the partisan editing of Nableezy and presumably Shuki - it would probably be beyond the scope and my take on it is that we probably need a fully fledged arbcom case to deal with the current detoriation in the Israel-Palestine topic area.

Nableezys comment "Go away" was to a blocked sockpuppet who had repeatedly disrupted the Golan heights article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it was directed against an IP address that was temporarily blocked and tried to start a discussion on the talk page (at last). I do not know where you get the sockpuppet part from, as there is no indication on the IPs talk page and no sockpuppet investigation. Pantherskin (talk) 10:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The IP was blocked and then he used another way to edit the talkpage while his other IP was blocked, that's block evasion. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tariqabjotu

This isn't about Shuki specifically, but the prevalence of arbitration enforcement requests and posts on AN3, ANI, and RFPP, especially as of late, regarding Israel-Palestine articles and articles that only mention something Israel-Palestine-related suggests that it's high time for another ARBCOM case. Either that, or admins need to be more willing to exact serious sanctions against editors that have been shown to be disruptive on these articles. We see the same editors being reported again and again (and the same editors doing the reporting again and again). This is one of today's most persistent and divisive conflicts, and while I appreciate people's willingness to give editors second, third, and fourth chances, the fact of the matter is, those people who edit disruptively in this arena will almost certainly always edit disruptively in this arena. This method of moderate sanctions and warnings that never get followed up on is not working. It's clear that a certain set of editors are testing the community's patience, and if they can't voluntarily move to an area in which they can more constructively edit, they should be forced to do so post-haste. -- tariqabjotu 12:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Agree with Tariqabjotu. However the administrators who regularly "manage" these areas are just as much at fault for the disruption as those who some consider "problematic" editors. The admins have become unwilling pawns of so called "battlefield warriors" and are therefore are unable to be non-bias, uninvolved parties themselves. Part of the solution, I feel, to defusing this situation (in addition to a new/clarified ARBCOM case) is to remove the administrators who regularly "enforce" actions on this board. I'm not suggesting revoking their admin status, only that since there is gross failure on their part to effectively administer IP-related disputes on ANI/AE (as evident by the level of REPEATED drama that regularly appears here), they should no longer be making binding decisions on editors whose action is brought to ANI/AE. --nsaum75 19:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the administrators here. The problem is not so much the administrators, as the AE system itself, which is still remarkably undefined and arbitrary. What this project needs more than anything in my view, is a simple, streamlined, transparent and predictable process for dealing with content disputes, which is what most disputation is ultimately about. We have got to stop throwing the content dispute dilemma into the too hard basket, and come up with a method of dealing with such disputes that doesn't compromise the Misplaced Pages commitment to NPOV. Gatoclass (talk) 03:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The administrators who regularly handle the tag-team "game" that AE has become have ignored concerns stated by others about the process and summarily ignored or dismissed those who question their neutrality. They have allowed themselves to become pawns of those who use Misplaced Pages as a battleground and therefore have ceased to become "neutral" "uninvolved" parties. Therefore, they do indeed share in the blame. True, the current AE system has been greatly abused and become a tool with which to "do battle", but you cannot ignore the fact that this "three ring circus" has been allowed to carry on as long as it has -- and to the extent that it has. There are other remedies for abuse of wikipedia processes themselves, completely separate from IP Arbcom regulations, but no one seems to be interested in taking advantage of them. Instead, the destructive, abusive, and disruptive behavior is allowed to continue unabated, with editors gaming the system knowing full well that the worst that will happen is a slap on the wrist. --nsaum75 04:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, my concern is that remedies are often too drastic rather than too lenient. But it can go either way. That's why I think this process is unduly arbitrary - it's usually left up to a single admin to decide upon a remedy, and depending on who he is or how he sees it, it might end up being anything from a 24-hour block to an indef ban. It's kind of like Russian roulette, you just never know what the outcome will be. We ought to be able to do better than that. Gatoclass (talk) 06:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

What if we had three admins decide a short term remedy - Maybe if an immediate block is warranted, do an emergency block for 12-24 hours, then have a group of admins decide what the "new" block should be. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by ZScarpia

Unlike the Israeli legal position, which is irrelevant to it, the overwhelming international viewpoint, as embodied in such organisations as the UN, is very staightforward: the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law (see the article on Israeli settlements, such documents as the text of UN Human Rights Council Resolution 7/18 and newspaper articles such as this one from Le Monde Diplomatique).

The Misplaced Pages rules require, as stated by Nableezy, that articles should present the all significant viewpoints and in a proportionate manner. Those on Israeli settlements and outposts, particularly major ones such as Ma'ale_Adumim and Ariel, should reflect the main global point of interest in them (as shown by the context in which they normally appear in sources), their status as illegal settlements in occupied territory and their role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Trying to minimise or suppress the proportionate representation of that viewpoint amounts to point-of-view pushing. That is particularly true when reasons given for reverting edits, rather than being based on the Misplaced Pages rules, are, as they have been here, where a reason given for reverting was that the status of the settlements is uncertain because it has never been examined in a law court, is based in a particular viewpoint (from the international point of view, the settlements are illegal because that is the ruling of the bodies responsible for making those judgements).

The reliablitly of the BBC as a source has been mentioned above. The BBC is far from infallible, but its duty as a public service broadcaster to report neutrally means that its reports are subject to more than normal editorial oversight, which, in Misplaced Pages terms, is an indication of greater reliability. In 2006, the report produced at the end of an independent review commissioned by the corporation's board of governors was, unlike the internally-produced Balen report, published. The review suggested that the BBC's reporting, if anything, favoured the Israeli side. The review panel recommended that the BBC should make public an abbreviated version of the Israel and Palestine part of its journalists' guide to facts and terminology. In light of the conversation going on here, perhaps the guideline which says, "when writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that 'all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this," which is very similar to the text that Nableezy was trying to introduce, might be seen as of interest.

← ZScarpia 21:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Did you comment on the RfC? That comment would have been better there. Anyway, so what you are saying is that the articles should start - Ariel is a city in the West Bank....established...with x population. Ariel is an Israeli settlement. That would satisfy what you suggested. --Shuki (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That is a very revealing comment from Shuki. Even at the end of an enforcement case against him, in which he faces a possible topic ban, he still cannot bring himself to concede that the illegality of these settlements should be mentioned in the settlement articles. Shuki's lack of objectivity in this topic area could scarcely be made more apparent. Is it any wonder that other users become frustrated? Judging by the comments he has made at this AE case, it appears to me that it's time for Shuki to find some other topic area in which to contribute. Gatoclass (talk) 03:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Once again it is a content dispute, which should be decided individually in every situation at the articles talk pages, and it could not and should not be enforced by AE. It is not as black and white as some try to present it here. And no, it is not an enforcement case against Shuki, or at least it is as much against Shuki as it is against Nableezy. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Removing the entire worldview from articles that is sourced from reliable sources is not a content dispute, its embarking on an article in a harmful manner. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Nobody has demonstrated any wrongdoing by Nableezy in this case. Everything that's been said about Nableezy has been in the form of either vague generalities or dredging up of old disputes. I've seen no evidence of current misbehaviour, and I might add that I think his past record of alleged misbehaviour is also overblown. But that of course is another issue. Gatoclass (talk) 03:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You obviously did not read my comments above in which I show specifically that Nableezy has done exactly what I have and much more, and given that his record is problematic, while mine is significantly better. There is nothing 'revealing' here, and as an admin you should know to discuss the AE here against me (and consequently Nableezy for bringing the spotlight on himself as well) and relative to other accepted/tolerated behaviour on WP, not content. --Shuki (talk) 08:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You are correct that I did not previously read all your comments, per WP:TLDR. However, I have now read them per your request and stand by my previous comment. Moreover, on closer examination of your arguments I find the following:

Nableezy, blocked numerous times for problematic behavior, is himself in violation of AE with his insertion of negative boilerplate WP:REDFLAG material. Specifically, his latest non-consensus solo effort, is to find any mention of a locality that also says that it is illegal. No proof of any court action specifically declaring this and definitely in contrast to many court cases with the Israeli Supreme Court that has decided whether a place is illegal...

Here, you are characterizing the position of every major international legal body that the settlements are illegal as an exceptional claim per WP:REDFLAG. As Malik noted above, that is simply a preposterous claim. Not only that, but you are conflating Israeli law regarding the legality of settlements with international law, when they are entirely separate entities.

I don't want to speculate on what might motivate you to try and defend these indefensible positions, but the fact that you are continuing to try rings very loud alarm bells for me. I'm not in a position to judge your overall contribution to the project, but if this is typical of your approach to disputes, then I'm sorry to say that I think you are editing in the wrong topic area and need to look for an area that is less emotionally charged for you. Gatoclass (talk) 11:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

{Reply to the comment addressed to me by Shuki at 22:29 (UTC) on 21 July 2010} Ideally every involved editor should be co-operating to produce a less single-perspective article. If the lead section were to be written by me, it would start something like:

Ariel is a city in the West Bank which was founded as an Israeli settlement in 1978. It is now the mother settlement of 26 others in its vicinity. Together, these comprise the Ariel settlement bloc. Like all settlements in the West Bank, the international community views these as illegal, though Israel disputes this. After the one at Ma'ale Adumim, the Ariel settlement bloc is the largest Israeli settlement in the West Bank.

← ZScarpia 20:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

In regard to court judgements on the legality of the settlements, in its role as the principal judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice stated the following in an advisory opinion given to the UN General Assembly on the 9 July 2004:

(page 9 of the summary) ... the Court considers that the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable in the Palestinian territories which before the 1967 conflict lay to the east of the Green Line and which, during that conflict, were occupied by Israel ...

(page 10 of the summary) The information provided to the Court shows that, since 1977, Israel has conducted a policy and developed practices involving the establishment of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, contrary to the terms of Article 49, paragraph 6, of the Fourth Geneva Convention which provides: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” The Security Council has taken the view that such policy and practices “have no legal validity” and constitute a “flagrant violation” of the Convention. The Court concludes that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law.

← ZScarpia 02:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

The addition of statements noting the international view that particular settlements are illegal has a long history and is not, as far as I can see, a breach of established consensus. For example, in the article on Ariel, the first time such a statement was added in April 2005, a year after the article was created, by Doron. ← ZScarpia 15:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Hope&Act3!

it is the first time that I express my views in such a setting and being inexperienced I will probably be clumsy, please be indulgent. Some have already said things I agree with, no need to repeat them

I don't contribute much since I have been busy reading kilometers of Talk pages, exclusively in the I-P domain, (which is the most vicious battleground in wp despite every guide line,) trying to understand where the grip is and hoping to come up with a proposition to fix it. In my following comment I will adopt the 'they' and 'us' 'pro-I' and 'pro-P' style although it's not my vision of the I-P in real life it only represents the actual situation in wp:en
(1) the context
it's obvious to everyone I think that this endless bickering is a waste both of time and energy, - war is not appealing to most editors so they avoid taking part in it and in consequence don't contribute and that ends being wp's loss
(2) the actors
I won't address directly Nableezy's accusations, the root of the problem is beyond that.
Did you notice that Shuki is the main 'pro-Israel' contributor in these so called discussions? so much so that seeing all the 'pro-Israel' on this page is amazing since they (like myself) don't figure so much there. That's the way it is, only Shuki managed to bear with Nableezy's uncompromising atitude: Nableezy won't ever be ready to give up until he has achieved his goal: occupation is illegal must be mentioned every 3 words at least so that nobody can forget the unforgivable wrong doings of the Zionists... (don't read it literally, it's a caricature, just to make the point of how it feels discussing with him)

I admire Shuki's patience and fortitude for Nableezy is a relentless attacker, if Shuki did fail in anyway it is because he has been pushed unto that intended breaking point.

Nableezy, which might be a pleasant person, is a victim of his blind hatred of the State of Israel and Zionism, and through that is easily manipulated by the 'pro-Palestinian' party: he is the willing spearhead which will eventually take the fall and that did happen many times already as we know
(3) my personnal experience
as soon as I started to grasp the depth of the war -consider that Jiujitsuguy added 'Jewish' before Gamla and SD could not take it: no such word is to be written in any place on the Golan which is Syrian, was Syrian, and will be forever Syrian.... Gamla was Jewish and many RS exist , so when I understood that I refrained from editing and as I said above read and read and read .... and I specially decided not to engage Nableezy in any dispute -not even about the 'stupid things' attack- and let it go since I consider that to be a futile exercise in nothingness and due to lead to frustration and possibly even anger hence my admiration for Shuki.
once in a while I did edit but that brought upon me a tentative of intimidation by RomaC for 'vandalism and warring' (I was waiting a few days before filing a complaint)
out of that I got the message that 'they' want to have a free rein in the I-P editing -as said Ynhockey, AMuseo, Noon - and will try to discourage anybody 'pro-Israel' bold enough to dare come and play in 'their' courtyard -since I am a genuine account 'they' had no chance to oust me for sockpupettery which is 'their' regular feat so 'they' have to find different ways. one must not forget: it's WAR! ('their' opinion)
(4) solution?
- quit this war state of mind (as many advocated)
- blocking editors doesn't work, it's brutal and when they come back, well it's back to square 1 (remember the last return of Nableezy -sorry, I don't mean to target you but this the only example I can think of presently- )
- I too thought like Sean.hoyland of this technique used in conflict resolution groups when everyone has to bring up the other side's position but I figured that in a workshop setting the participants will stay in situ and collaborate, here those which don't want to will simply stay away for the time of the exercise and then... resume the same game

- I will plead not to ban either Shuki or Nableezy -it should be both, albeit not identically, or none- for (see Mbz1) a ban is cruel since it hurts and doesn't reform and in the long term it's bound to be counterproductive, just demand a monitored* cease fire in litigation and pov push and instead of the inumerable rfc et al a serious brainstorming with everyone interested to come up with a friendly solution (not just the administrators), as oppose to the big stick policy which has failed so far -that at least is clear to me-. Violence breeds violence and is to be avoided. I believe that with a lot of good will from everyone we can pull it up, it won't be easy but there is really no choice, carrying on the present way is a dead end. Guide lines are just that, they must not be blindly -and foolishly- enforced but with flexibility to meet both parties' wishes, unless we intend to institute once again the good old Pax Romana
- if you still think that only a firm hand will bring results and do want to break their back, I will suggest a very radical measure: a topic ban of ALL the editors and hopefully the new batch will be wiser (I very much doubt that though)

*should be very closely monitored in order to avoid the type of policy SD -which is not the subject here- adopted so that s.o. else would fight his battles (re Tznkai /topic ban)

:@RomaC: There are few topic areas with nearly as much concerted partisan activity as Israel-Palestine. uh! if it's how you see it that does explain a lot regarding the failure in reaching balance! that is a point to clarify then. Nableezy may be biased, but he's also badly outnumbered which makes him sort of stick out in these content disputes. I disagree, as I said Shuki was mainly left on his own to face endless days of lines of over and over the same words and arguments, are you saying that Nableezy believed he was alone holding the fort? I felt under attack myself I guess that I do not think that I only can save the world where he felt desperately obligated to fight to the end, was it so? that also is to be discussed . On another wiki I read an essay: 'Nobody is irremplacable' (fortunately) still each one of us is unique, ok?
I read again the comments and I saw a lot of a militantist attitude, I hope this is not the tone which will prevail
@Stifle: thanks for offering your help, Hope&Act3! (talk) 14:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional Comment by Pantherskin

One of the most destructive tactics to use on Misplaced Pages is the introduction of hoaxes into articles, and the use of made-up sources. At the Syria article both Nableezy and Supreme Deliciousness wanted to include the sentence "...to defend itself against Israeli shellings into Syria. According to the UN office in Jerusalem from 1955 until 1967 65 of the 69 border flare-ups between Syria and Israel were initiated by Israelis." in the article, cited to "Kamrava, Mehran, The Modern Middle East: A Political History since the First World War, University of California Press; 1 edition, p. 48". I checked the source in the library, neither on this page nor anywhere else in the book is there anything even remotely. You can even check it on Google Books, For me page 48 does not show, but it is clear that this chapters is about the pre-World War I era. You can also search for the numbers 67 and 69, the numbers 67 or 69 are not mentioned anywhere in the book. In short, these editors used a made-up source to bolster their claims and only after being caught red-handed did Supreme Deliciousness remove the fake source (see and ). I do not know how one can work collaboratively on this projekt or have trust in Misplaced Pages articles if we cannot trust our editors to be honest about their sources. This is even more important than civility and conforming to NPOV.

I did not "want to include the sentence" I reverted an edit that you made that removed something that I did want to include and you never once raised any concern about the other material. Perhaps I should have checked the first part of the edit but as you never once said one word about the material or the source I did not. Kindly do not misrepresent my actions here. nableezy - 21:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

We even discussed this section on the talk page and on the NPOV noticeboard, and I made it clear that the claims of Israel having shelled Syria are in conflict with what virtually all other sources say. I even quoted the first part, the part with the made-up source Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Syria, so how you manage to be completely oblivious to this is beyond me. Either way I do not know how one can trust you as an editor when one has to double-check the sources you use. Pantherskin (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You never once said one word about this source. If you had either removed just this and the material it was sourcing or if you raised the issue on the talk page I would have checked the source. But you did not, you just kept removed it with the Dayan quote. The reason I reverted that is because of the Dayan quote, of which there is no doubt of the authenticity or relevance. I dont particularly care what you think of me because, well, I dont think too highly of you. If you want to pretend that this was the issue you can, but anybody who looks at the discussion page can see that it was focused on the Dayan quote and you never once raised a question about this source. nableezy - 21:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

That sentence has been in the article since November 2008. It isn't unreasonable for Supreme Deliciousness and nableezy to assume good faith that the source supported the sentence. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The comments here above from Pantherskin is clearly Assumption of Bad faith. That text was in the article and looked to me as well sourced, Panterskin removed it together with a well sourced Dayan quote and did not say anything about that the Jerusalem office text had a false source. As soon as it was pointed out to me that that specific part about the Jerusalem office had a false source, I removed it myself. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The content was questioned several times by editors on the grounds that it contradicts what is known about this conflict from reliable source, including me (Talk:Syria#Border_Flare-Ups, /Talk:Syria#Invalid_Source_on_Dayan_Admitting_to_Israel_Provoking_Clashes). But you Supreme Deliciousness insisted that it is well-sourced. You never said that you do not know what the source actually says and mislead other editors about the content. The manner in which you removed the content after being caught red-hand furthermore suggests that all the time you knew that the source was fake. Pantherskin (talk) 10:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually it suggests that if you had once questioned that line on the basis of the source not supporting it SD would have checked it and removed it himself. nableezy - 16:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by unomi

To me it seems clear that what we have before us is not a content dispute. The dispute may be grounded in the content, but the enforcement request is solidly regarding policy violations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar#Removal_of_sourced_edits_made_in_a_neutral_narrative_is_disruptive

We have had a number of public discussions regarding how sources deal with the illegal settlements; at IPCOLL wikiproject, and across a multitude of talkpages. While there are sources which dispute the 'illegal settlement' moniker, the majority of quality sources support it. For a light primer see fx Daniel C. Kurtzer's article in Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs reprinted here:

Secretary of State Cyrus Vance made this clear in Congressional testimony before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, March
21, 1980: US policy toward the establishment of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories is unequivocal and has long been a matter of public record. We consider it to be contrary to international law and an impediment to the successful conclusion of the Middle East peace process...Article 49, paragraph 6, of the Fourth Geneva Convention is, in my judgment, and has been in the judgment of each of the legal advisers of the State Department for many, many years, to be. . .that are illegal and that applies to the territories.
Vance's view was based on longstanding US policy. For example, in March 1976, Ambassador William Scranton told the United Nations Security Council: Substantial resettlement of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under the convention and cannot be considered to have prejudged the outcome of future negotiations between the parties on the locations of the borders of states by the Middle East. Indeed, the presence of these settlements is seen by my government as an obstacle to the success of the negotiations for a just and final peace between Israel and its neighbors.
Scranton's statement was based on the position expressed by Ambassador Charles Yost, who told the UN Security Council in July 1969:
Among the provisions of international law which bind Israel, as they would bind any occupier, are the provisions that the occupier has no right to make changes in laws or in administration other than those which are temporarily necessitated by his security interests, and that an occupier may not confiscate or destroy private property. The pattern of behavior authorized under the Geneva Convention and international law is clear: the occupier must maintain the occupied area as intact and unaltered as possible, without interfering with the customary life of the area, and any changes must be necessitated by the immediate needs of the occupation.

I think it is fair to say that these are not fringe views, and they are supported by ECJ and ICJ publications. In light of the supermajority of sources which support the wording that Shuki tendentiously edited to remove I find Nableezys enforcement request entirely reasonable. Unomi (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Clarify the limits

Can you please clarify the limits of this action? Does it basically include; 1) all locality articles in the region, 2) all geography articles (including parks or attractions), 3) talk pages as well?.

I made a couple of comments at Talk:List of national parks and nature reserves of Israel today. If they are included in the ban, I will refrain from continuing. --Shuki (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Since the purpose of this ban is to prevent edit-warring over whether or not a particular site is actually in Israel, surely all that is necessary is to restrict editing in this limited area. Even accepting the legitimacy of the block, I can't see a reason why Shuki or Nableezy should be prevented from making edits like this or this. RolandR (talk) 11:30, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I invite Shuki and Nableezy to show cause why they should not both be topic-banned for 3 months from articles about towns, cities, settlements, and other places or locations in Israel and neighbouring countries. And I request in advance that all comments relating to this request are added here, not at my talk page. Stifle (talk) 14:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

For clarification, "here" means "on this page". Stifle (talk) 18:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a note that I have read all the submissions and am analyzing the evidence. In a couple of days I intend to propose a final sanction and invite admin comment on same. I am reading the diffs and other details provided and will not be jumping to conclusions. Stifle (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I have read and reviewed all the submissions and diffs and remain convinced that each side is at fault. There is a possibility that one party is more at fault than the other, but that is neither here nor there. I am still minded to impose a topic ban on both parties, although I will shorten the duration to the end of August. I invite comment from other uninvolved administrators here (i.e. this section) as to whether this appears appropriate. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. This is a content dispute which the people involved can't resolve in a collegial manner. I considered proposing limiting the scope to Israeli settlements, but that's probably too open to gaming and disagreement. Sandstein 11:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You are entitled to your conclusion of course Stifle, but I think the parties to the dispute are also entitled to know what precisely they are being convicted of, and on what evidence. "I remain convinced that each side is at fault" is not exactly forthcoming. Gatoclass (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring, tendentious editing, and using reverts rather than discussion on a disputed article. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The individual articles link to Israeli settlement, which contains an overview of the legal situation. To what extent any of this needs to be summarized in the articles is obviously an editorial decision, however edit warring over whether there should be a mention in the lead is disruptive, and therefore can result in sanctions being imposed. I agree that Stifle's proposed sanctions are reasonable. PhilKnight (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Further to the above discussions and pursuant to Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions, Shuki and Nableezy are both topic-banned until 23:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC) from articles about towns, cities, settlements, and other places or locations in Israel and neighbouring countries. Violation of the topic ban shall result in a block of appropriate duration and the topic-ban being reset to run for five weeks from the end of the block. Stifle (talk) 08:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As things stand, (1) is included, (2) is included (as a park or attraction is a place), and (3) is not included. Disruption on talk pages will however be viewed dimly. Stifle (talk) 11:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

TimidGuy

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning TimidGuy

User requesting enforcement: Will Beback talk 19:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: TimidGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

There was a conflict over an assertion that was not contained in the cited source. I raised the issue on the talk page, and a day later TimidGuy said the source may be changing. There was further discussion about the source and the assertion, and indeed, the source did change so that it now supported the claim. After I commented on how odd this was, TimidGuy explained that he had twice asked the webmaster of the university where he works, whose website was the source, to alter the webpage to match the assertion already being made in the Misplaced Pages page.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

These are the COI postings. There have been other complaints and warnings as well.

Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 2#Transcendental Meditation 26 February 2007
Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_5#Transcendental Meditation 5 March 2007
Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 30#Article: Transcendental Meditation, Users TimidGuy and Littleolive oil 17 February 2009
Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 35#User 76.76. etc and Transcendental Meditation Article 11 August 2009 (Note: TimidGuy later admitted that he was the editor using the 76.76 IPs.)
Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 40#Transcendental Meditation 24 January 2010

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

The recent ArbCom case noted several principles, including findings COI and the use of sources. It directed editors to review those findings and avoid recurring problems. It delegates enforcement to admins who may apply remedies, including topic bans and blocks, following a warning.

The appropriate action in this matter, I suggest, would be to give the editor a formal warning to avoid further problems with COI or sourcing, or other issues raised in the ArbCom findings regarding the TM-related articles.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Editing with a conflict of interest is not prohibited in and of itself. However those conflicts often lead to other problems. This user has a close and long-term relationship with the Maharishi University of Management (MUM). MUM conducts the vast majority of research on Transcendental Meditation, and is the US headquarters of the Transcendental Meditation movement. TimidGuy has a long history of adding or supporting favorable material and deleting or arguing against negative material and thus skewing POV on related articles. Since we rely so heavily on MUM as a source, it is very distressing to learn that an editor with a COI has manipulated an MUM source in a way that supports a POV in an edit conflict. Even after numerous complaints from a variety of editors going back three years, and a recent ArbCom case that laid out principles that should not be violated (including the proper way to edit with a COI as well as principles on sourcing and neutrality), the editor does not seem to be able to separate his role in the movement from his role as a Misplaced Pages editor. Will Beback talk 19:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC) edited 02:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: 19:52, July 31, 2010

Question for Sandstein: Do you think that the first remedy, "All parties instructed", has any purpose? It calls on editors to avoid violating a list of principles. Among those principles it lists are using reliable sources, using caution in areas of conflict of interest, and using sources accurately. In your opinion, was that all just meaningless boilerplate or are we actually expecting editors to follow the ArbCom's list of principles? Will Beback talk 21:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning TimidGuy

Statement by TimidGuy

Thanks, Will, for the notice. I will write a statement. But before I post it, I'd like to get clarification on something, and have posted a comment on AE Talk. TimidGuy (talk) 16:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Will, I appreciate that you have now changed your statements so that they no longer say that there were Arbcom findings of fact against me. I hope it's okay that I've gone ahead and posted a second comment on AE Talk asking for clarification. Regarding a statement, I've written one but I want to revise it. This AE comes at an awkward time for me. I'm heading out of town shortly due to the imminent death of a member of my immediate family. I'll try to check in, but I don't know whether I'll be able to. TimidGuy (talk) 11:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning TimidGuy

I see that Will originally requested either a formal warning or a topic ban, but then scaled back his request. In light of the documented inability of Timid Guy to separate his role as an advocate for the TM Movement, and as an employee of Maharishi University of Management (or, perhaps more accurately, a poverty-wage highly-dedicated volunteer, given the pay there), and his refusal to even acknowledge findings at COIN and direct instructions from admins (falsely claiming at ArbCom that none of the multiple COIN discussions ever resulted in any finding against him or instructions to stay away from editing directly), or the findings at the TM ArbCom (claiming on this talk page that he just doesn't understand how anything at ArbCom applies to COI or to him), nothing short of a topic ban is going to alter his behavior. Fladrif (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

And again today, continued rationalization, consistent with his position of denial following the COIN decisions, that the TM ArbCom decision simply doesn't apply to him, because "...there was no finding of fact regarding me" Fladrif (talk) 14:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Lest this be focused on process more than substance, my comments above are directed to reasons why, at this point, a formal warning is likely inadequate. To the substance, deliberately manipulating a source published by one's employer to affect an ongoing editing controversy in a Misplaced Pages article - and there is no denying that is exactly what happened here - is outrageous and eggregious misconduct, compounded by the fact that it followed the ArbCom decision. Fladrif (talk) 17:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Here are some important points for the Enforcing Administrator on this case to note:
- 1.)COI accusations against Timid Guy and other editors have been made on many occasions prior to TM ArbCom by Will Beback on User talk pages, Article talk pages and Noticeboards.
- 2)Will Beback continued his COI accusations during the recent TM ArbCom.
- 3)During the TM Arbcom some editors accused Will Beback of using COI accusations as an excuse for harassment and intimidation.
- 4)The Arb Committee however, did not issue any findings or warnings in regard to the accusations made against Timid Guy or Will Beback.
- 5)The ArbCom Decision says that: “Enforcing administrators are instructed to focus on fresh and clear-cut matters arising after the closure of this case rather than on revisiting historical allegations.”-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It is important for Misplaced Pages to address WP:COI if it wants to be taken seriously by the academic community. We have had a number of edits by different TM editors in the last few days attempting to promote this organization such as 1) the removal of scientific conclusion about it effects from the lead 2) the presentation of less important and possibly fringe views before well excepted conclusions 3) Making main stream conclusion see like opinion and less main stream conclusion appear like fact While this are subtle changes they have been ongoing from a number of WP:SPA who admit to being TM members. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that those are problematic edits from a POV perspective, but this request concerns only one editor, TimidGuy. Will Beback talk 23:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It would seem that the comments above (including mine) should be moved to the section titled Comments By Others (below). Is there a clerk on this page?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
  - I've moved these comments to their correct place. Sandstein 19:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning TimidGuy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This case obviously has a complex history (of which I am ignorant), but I don't see the conflict of interest or other conduct problem here. We allow people to cite their own works in articles, as long as these own works meet the standards of reliable sources (WP:COS), so even if we consider the website at issue to be a work by TimidGuy on account of any influence he may have exerted over its content, he may still cite it if it is a reliable source. Whether it is a reliable source (especially under these circumstances) and should be cited at all is another question, of course, but that's a matter for editors to discuss, e.g. at WP:RSN, and not a matter for arbitration enforcement. Without objection by other admins, I'll close this request as not actionable. Sandstein 19:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I have a question for you, above, about the enforceability of the ArbCom case. Will Beback talk 21:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Chumchum7

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Chumchum7

User requesting enforcement: Varsovian (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Chumchum7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions (specifically Arbitration enforcement 1R/week article level restriction (WP:DIGWUREN))

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

With this edit, made at 06:40, on 23 July 2010, Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine.
With an edit made at 07:10, on 23 July 2010 Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine (which was partially altered by edits such as this one by Radeksz).

All editors are under the following restriction with regard to this article: “You may not make more than one revert of this article within one week (i.e., any period of 168 hours). A revert is any action that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.” As shown about, Chumchum7 made two reverts in the space of 30 minutes.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Editor formally ~~warned~~ notified of DIGWUREN Discretionary sanctions

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Apologies for the lateness in making this request, I've been away for the last week and limited to non-PC access to WP.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Chumchum7

Statement by Chumchum7

Comments by others about the request concerning Chumchum7

Cannot see how either of these edits is a revert. Number one is a rewording (keeping one crucial element of V's previous edit, namely the grammatical information that the "not invited" didn't apply to all), and number two seems entirely unrelated to the previous edit that V claims was reverted. It also appears to be merely a re-ordering of text without adding or subtracting any, whereas V's edit was an addition, and I can't see any of his text affected by edit number two at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Plus, the two claimed reverts are in fact two successive edits, and hence would only count as a single revert anyway, even if they both were reverting something. Looks like quite a groundless complaint to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified. Either the restriction is that an editor can make only one revert per week or it is that one editor can make only one restriction per week to any one element of the article. I have no doubt~~, given the endless stream of threats to report me here which come from various editors who would prefer to harass another editor away as happened in the glory days of EEML,~~ that if I were to make more than one revert per week, I would be reported here. So I want to have crystal clear guidance about what is and is not acceptable under the restrictions. Your comment above raises another issue: is changing the order of text a revert? Varsovian (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

"one restriction per week"? You mean "revision", right? No, the rule is not about making so many revisions, it is only about reverts. A revert is an edit that "undoes, in whole or in part, a previous edit by another editor". For purposes of revert counting, edits made in direct succession always count as one, no matter whether they affect several issues or several previously disputed elements. Changing the order of elements is normally not a revert (unless, of course, that order of elements was previously already an object of contention.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that mistake. I actually mean "revert" (as stated in the restriction quoted from above). Your interpretation of what is 'one' revert is interesting but I've learned to be cautious in my interpretation of what terms mean here (having been restricted because I didn't know that what is clearly called a "post" on a talk page is also an edit) and doubly so given that there are editors so keen to misrepresent my words (one has already called this request "harasment" and only temporarily withdrawn the accusation). The paragraph ordering has indeed been discussed before (see, for example, my talk page post of 11:42, 28 April 2010). Varsovian (talk) 09:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Chumchum7

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Tadija

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Tadija

User requesting enforcement: Sulmues 14:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Tadija (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#May_2010_.E2.80.93

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Tadija is not following expected standards of behavior and a normal editorial process per the following diffs:

Tadija is tendentiously trying to reach a consensus to split the Kosovo article into three articles, barely 9 days after a consensus had already been reached to not split such article (see Talk:Kosovo#ICJ verdict). In this diff Tadija threatens that votes will not be counted if they are from IP editors and such votes will be deleted by him. In this diff Tadija threatens that he will also delete all the votes that don't have sufficient explanations. In addition, Tadija influences the vote by saying his opinion that "separation is the only logical way".
Tadija removes user:Bobrayner's comment who was asking about procedures of this voting process, where no discussions are allowed by Tadija as far as other people's votes, and who was also asking about additional "next steps" that Tadija mentions and are not explained in the voting process.
and Tadija canvasses only his fellow editors from Serbia to better explain their vote otherwise he will remove the votes with no explanation.
Tadija removes IP editor concern that Tadija's voting process might deter neutral uses from voting and that he is not neutral in this process.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Indefinite 1RR/week sanction applied July 15 2010 by Toddst1 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - as per , although it was subsequently transformed into a strong final warning only because the user had not been given enough warnings
1st warning by Sulmues (talk · contribs)
2nd warning by Sulmues (talk · contribs)
3rd warning by Sulmues (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Topic ban from Kosovo.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Tadija with his disruptive editing has gone way too far in Kosovo related topics. I was even surprized to see that user:DIREKTOR, an experienced and good contributor, who happens to endorse mostly Tadija's thoughts on Kosovo, still sees this user as problematic because of his anti-Albanian behavior in Misplaced Pages; Last but not least, I saw that Tadija is being also disruptive in Template:Politics of Kosovo by making three reverts only on the Coat of Arms of Kosovo placement and claiming that there is a consensus, while the Talk page shows that no consensus exists. , , .

The page was protected because of edit-warring but he rudely responded to user:Enric Naval . In addition he entered the spa (single purpose account) template to an IP user signature , not respecting the user's opinion and branded the user a sock , and accused him of vandalism only because he dared to disagree with Tadija's opinion.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Tadija

Statement by Tadija

Well, i asked for the new vote (normally, not tendentiously) as previous vote (see Talk:Kosovo#ICJ verdict) was mainly about removing 3 infoboxes, and leaving only one. It even wasn't clear what will be new split articles, and what will those have. I didn't removed any unexplained votes, (as you may check) and i asked for explanation on users talk page, in order to keep vote alive and better. You should also see fixed version of my intro, as user Sulmues mistakenly added only first version.

I was not removing anything, i moved personal question to my user page, where is it even now. I explained to the user Bobrayner what i wanted to do in his user page as he asked me personal question, that was by my opinion out of the voting scope. Thinking of it later, it was better just to copy it to user's page, and respond there, but when i got aware of that, it was already reverted. I was editing something different in the meantime.

Regarding my "fellow editors" and Well, all others that was just voted without proper explanation was informed to explain their vote. Not just those three users. Sulmues mistakenly forgot to mentioned that. I asked for better explanation of that votes. I think that it is not problem to ask for better explanation after user already voted. Like in personal communication, when you ask for someone to repeat more clearly. This hardly can be again any rule. Also, why do we need just vote? As far as i know, wikipedia is not democracy.

This is sock IP of previously blocked users for WP:DE. Troll. Reported here () by me, per user:Dbachmann knowledge. Other IP's was already blocked temporary. That user is, as it looks like, Sockpuppet. Checkuser may be good solution for solving this question. All other (quite one sided) diffs by Sulmues regarding this was tagged only because of subjects presented here. Sincerely, i didn't even read all of those IP sentences. Way to many trolling text for SPA.

User:DIREKTOR was quite right with his comment here It doesn't matter what i do, the best is just to do opposite of Tadija. I really dont know why am i so special. It looks to me that i am attacked, hardly and sinisterly, and what is the greatest problem, with such easiness, that even users from a side see this clearly. It looks that if i am not pro-albanian on wiki, and if i try to maintain order and neutrality as much as i can, then i should be reported, attacked, insulted, and all other. As you can see here, and in a lot more places, if some uninvolved editor want to see...

For Template:Politics of Kosovo, agreement for the Kosovo Republic flag and Coat of Arms removal was here and here. That can be seen there, as i told you. So, it WAS on the page. Unfortunately, admin User:Ev is on wiki from time to time, so he cannot help now, his knowledge about this is quite big.

For my "rude" respond to user:Enric Naval , well that was not respond to him, but to the IP spa from above. Again unintentional mistake by Sulmues.

User:bobrayner asked me on Talk:Kosovo why didn't i talked to user Bojan about his vote explanation, what i did later, and now, they report me for that. Odd...

My edits on that page was only in order to fix layout and format errors. As far as i know, that is specifically non criteria in mentioned WP:TPOC. Also, important, very important guideline that i follow here was WP:PNSD. I am sure that previous vote, due to misleading it, and unclear propositions and rules, was incorrect.

Poll was opened, and closed IN JUST 27 HOURS!

How is it possible that this article, main and the most important article regarding this subject, can have such a important poll that lasted only one day? And during that day, we have 12+ votes. And later, i am accused of canvasing? Edits of that importance must have better approval, then just rashly collected i do's, and i don't's.

Also, it is important to see that i DIDN'T DELETE ANY VOTE from talk:Kosovo. As it can be seen from talk page history. By the same user, i was accused that i was gaming the system. As far as i know, gaming the system must include bad faith. That was definitively not the case here. And at the end, why should i do that? I started this vote with exactly opposite reasons. To have properly guided vote.

Regarding the rest, well, user:Sulmues was informed about my intention , but that doesn't seam to have any affect on him. While there was some fact about users way of conduction this kind of requests (), i will not talk about that any more, and i will just say that i want to create normal, clean vote, without intrusions and trolling, that will last for few weeks in order to be big and meaningful, but gathering of user to point the view is just too much. Per some former requests, there was evidences that gathering is problematic in this kind of editorial processes, and i wanted to escape this by informing that votes must be proper and useful. Consensus is not immutable. However cracky it is, it should be fixed, in order to have proper and neutral encyclopedia, that will not be one sided. As we speak, on Kosovo page, we have one infobox with Republic of Kosovo flag and Coat of arms, with antem, and all, while in the infobox name, first we can proudly read

Republic of Kosovo
Republika e Kosovës
Република Косово / Republika Kosovo

Split was the best idea i could think of in the moment, regarding this conditions now, following the promptly poll. If uninvolved editor finds that i was out of wikipedia main rules and guidelines, i will apologize for that. That was not my intention. Just want him to know that i was acting only to create Misplaced Pages better and neutral, as best as i learned during my years here. --Tadija 21:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Tadija

I had planned to report to this editor, but now that is reported i decided to ask long-term sanctions.

SPLIT temp in kosovo was set by dab then the editors reached consensus to remove split temp and was removed after consensus. After reaching consensus among the majority of the editors, this editor user:tadija replaces again SPLIT temp ignoring consensus

(cur | prev) 13:19, 2 August 2010 Tadija (talk | contribs) (113,865 bytes) (split) (undo)
(cur | prev) 16:34, 26 July 2010 Bobrayner (talk | contribs) (113,276 bytes) (Split template removed, in line with talk page consensus.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:40, 26 July 2010 Dbachmann (talk | contribs) (113,348 bytes) (it appears we are once again headed for a split, then.) (undo)

-- LONTECH Talk 16:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Some background: The Kosovo talkpage has a lot of debate which is, unfortunately, polarised between two "sides". I've ended up on the opposite "side" to Tadija. I wish it were possible to meet in the middle but things are very polarised. I am reluctant to comment here but I don't know how else to start dealing with some of the page's problems.

There have been multiple polls about proposals to split the Kosovo article. There was a lengthy discussion in a poll 1 week ago. In this poll, consensus clearly opposed a split.. Tadija announced that voting was worthless because a minority of the votes were from "albanian IPs", and complained that Misplaced Pages Is Not A Democracy. There was further opposition to a split in another thread that Tadija started on 26 July.

Then a few days later, Tadija decides to hold a vote of his own (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT), with carefully contrived rules, and threatened to delete votes that didn't meet his criteria. I think this was gaming the system.

Mysteriously, some editors who are not usually frequent visitors arrived within minutes to agree to Tadija's proposal. Unfortunately, their votes did not fit the rules that Tadija previously invented. Unlike previous instances where he has rapidly deleted votes of people opposing him, this time Tadija let the votes stand. I think this is further gaming - if they had voted the other way I expect the votes would have been swftly removed. Instead, Tadija deleted my questions about the voting rules he had invented , which is against WP:TPOC. Then he deleted a comment from an IP address that disagreed with him, labelling it as a sock. I believe that too is against WP:TPOC and WP:AGF. Unfortunately, on talk:Kosovo, labels like "sock" and "troll" seem to be frequently used to silence folk who do not agree with certain editors.

Sulmues firmly asked Tadija to restore the first set comments that he had deleted. ]. Tadija did not comply , so I did it instead.

I think this is a consistent pattern of disruptive editing, gaming the system, and contempt for consensus. Tadija has been actively editing during this period but has avoided questions about his behaviour. I'm not asking for any specific response/sanction. I have no idea how to pacify the epic battles on talk:kosovo. Hopefully somebody else knows, and hopefully that person is an admin reading this page :-)

(I've never contrubuted to an enforcement request before, sorry if I got anything wrong) bobrayner (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Tadija

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Brews ohare

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Brews ohare

User requesting enforcement: JohnBlackburne_deeds 18:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare restricted

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

New thread started Aug 2
New thread started Aug 3
New thread started Aug 2
New thread started Aug 2

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Bob K31416 (talk · contribs)
...

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Whatever is appropriate

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Raised at AN/I here, and was directed here. Brews despite being under sanction for past editing at Speed of light is back at that page starting thread after thread, sometimes many times a day, threads which repeatedly raise the same points and have nothing to do with improving the article. He is still making the same scientifically flawed arguments but seems unwilling or unable to accept consensus and move on. His topic ban, which ended only a month ago, seems to have done nothing to change his behaviour.--JohnBlackburne_deeds 18:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

I have no interest in pursuing this matter in any form. If my efforts at Talk: Speed of light are going to embroil me in arbcom disputes, I simply will drop the matter altogether. Personally, I find this action by Blackburne out of line, and contrary to normal idea of what a Talk page is about. Brews ohare (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

I helped initiate the case. Please block Brews indefinitely. There have been far too many second, third and forty eighth chances. The editor does not get it and will never get it. Jehochman 19:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

What matters is whether Brews listens when people tell him to stop starting new discussions. Apparently, today some editors have told him explicitely to do so. And Brews has reacted by saying that he will do that. That is precisely the good behavior we want to see. What is not an issue is that Brews started many discussions yesterday and the days before leading to this demand, as at that time no one asked Brews to stop.

Brews should not be blocked, unless he fails to listen to comments regarding behavioral issues. That he doesn't agree with the issues relevant to the speed of light cannot be used to block him. I think Jehochman and John Blackburne are confusing these two issues. For sure, one can lead to the other. If you fail to understand a technical issue, you can end up in endless discussions. But the focus should be on managing these discussions and making sure they don't impede the editing of the articles in question. The moment editors think the discussions should end, they should say so, and then wait until the editor reacts. If the reaction is not satisfactory, admninistrative action should follow.

But we can't shut down someone after he has agreed to stop just because he vigorously argued a point before he was asked to stop. If we use this logic, we should first ban all the global warming sceptical editors on Misplaced Pages, as they are wrong too and they now pose a far more serious problem as far as editing articles is concerned. Count Iblis (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

He has been warned before. I should have added these above but they are difficult to find. here by User:Physchim62 on the 16th of July, here by User:Headbomb on the 19th of July, here on the 20th of July by User:Finell, here on the 22nd of July by me and here on the 28th of July by User:TimothyRias. This is on top of the many editors replying, trying to point out the flaws in his reasoning, only to see their contributions ignored or dismissed as stupid or lazy, and the same nonsense reposted under a different heading.--JohnBlackburne_deeds 21:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. It is painful drain on productivity when multiple editors need to keep going over the same ground. Meanwhile, the article talk page becomes long and unreadable, and editors are driven away because they do not want to participate in argumentum ad nauseum. This endless raising of the same fringe theories is disruptive, whether intended that way or not. It needs to be stopped finally. Jehochman 21:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

These diffs are not good formal warnings of talk page disruption. One has to directly address the issue that there are now too many discussions and discuss that specific point and ask Brews to stop. I note that Brews has stopped the moment the reall issue was raised. If instead, one makes vague comments like that he doesn't understand this issue so he should not edit, or that he is violating OR, then that's obviously something he is going to argue with.

Or do we fault Cla68 for not stop editing the global warming related aticles because William Connelley and ChrisO have made negative comments about his editing style, particularly about his pushing of unreliable sources? I don't think so. But Brews is not a problematic editor like that and he will stop if asked in a reasonable way. Count Iblis (talk) 21:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Count Iblis, does Brews have some form of learning disability? (Don't answer if he does, I'm not actually trying for a BLP violation). Its just that if he doesn't, why does he have to be warned formally EVERY TIME he starts this up. Why can't he remember from one time to the next not to do this shizz, like most of us do with things we're not supposed to do. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't look inside Brews' head, but I think there are two issues with Brews. First, being retired, he has a lot of time available for Misplaced Pages. This means that 5 long threads is not a big deal to him, while it is for someone who is very busy and has ten minutes available to scan his/her watchlist.

Another thing is why there are all these discussions in the first place. I.m.o., that's because he doesn't have a good working knowledege about relativistic physics. He then approaches the subject from within classical physics while staying agnostic about the relativistic issues. This then leads him to bring up all sorts of issues from sources that are not relevant to the issue at hand. E.g., he sees important potential problems for the definition of the metre while in fact there aren't any, at least not any important enough worth mentioning. And trying to explain this to Brews fails because he keeps approaching this issue from a classical POV, so the discussions never really end.

Then I think we do need to tell Brews whenever necessary that certain discussions are closed. Just saying something like: "Brews, go away, we don't want you here" is not ok., though. Although, if Brews would voluntarily stick to a topic ban for a while that would also clear the air. Count Iblis (talk) 22:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

He doesn't seem to have a cracking working knowledge of theoretical physics in general. However, his problem seems to be that he doesn't have any understanding of people saying things like "you should make that point in the article on the metre", which was said at least ten times in the course of those five threads. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to reiterate one of Elen's points, Count Iblis, Brews has not stopped because he was asked. He's stopped because it's come back to Arbcom. By his own words:

Blackburne has decided to make a federal case out of my participation .... so I'm quitting for the moment.

IOW, "I'll be back!"

--Michael C. Price 22:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I see, but I think what was needed was a small meta-discussion on the talk page about all the threads by Brews in order to close these discussions about the issues reated to the redefinion of the metre. This then addresses the real issues directly instead of specific points about anything related to the topic issue (i.e. that all these discussions are disruptive and not e.g. if breaking of Lorentz invariance would be an issue for the definition of the metre). Count Iblis (talk) 22:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

It is clear from the above and from the current state of the article talk page, seen in the light of the findings at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare and disruptive editing, that Brews ohare's recent contributions to Talk:Speed of light constitute (and are widely perceived as) a continuation of the disruptive soapboxing that he was previously sanctioned for by the Arbitration Committee. Consequently, per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare restricted, I am hereby banning Brews ohare indefinitely from editing the article Speed of light and its talk page. For the sake of clarity, I am of the view that the permission to make certain edits concerning the Speed of light article granted to Brews ohare by the Committee's motions of 27 January 2010 no longer apply, because they were phrased as exceptions to the general topic ban then in force, and not as exceptions to any future restriction, like the one I am imposing now. Sandstein 23:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

For clarity's sake, does this also cover related articles, specfically those of metre and redefinition of the Metre in 1983, as well as their talks pages, and any related discussions likes FACs and AfDs? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 06:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

No, only the article Speed of light and its talk page, because the evidence in this request relates only to disruption concerning that article. If there is also similar disruption concerning other articles, a new request for arbitration enforcement may be made. Sandstein 06:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Guess we'll see each other soon because of these articles then. Hopefully I'm wrong about this. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 06:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Contributors to this arbitration enforcement request may be interested in my request for clarification here. Sandstein 07:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)