Misplaced Pages

User talk:JakeInJoisey: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 01:06, 24 September 2010 editBishonen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,348 edits Warning: and an afterthought← Previous edit Revision as of 01:43, 24 September 2010 edit undoFellGleaming (talk | contribs)3,690 editsm WarningNext edit →
Line 497: Line 497:
==Warning== ==Warning==
I'm sorry to have to say this, but we really need to discourage the kind of drama, battleground, and ruleslawyering which you added to the CC case (which had enough of those features already) with inappropriate accusations of "ad hominems" and "personal attacks". If you file another frivolous action on ], or again poke William M. Conolley with a stick, you will be banned from the Requests for enforcement page, or from interacting with or discussing WMC, whichever your behaviour makes more appropriate. Please edit constructively. ] | ] 01:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC). I'm sorry to have to say this, but we really need to discourage the kind of drama, battleground, and ruleslawyering which you added to the CC case (which had enough of those features already) with inappropriate accusations of "ad hominems" and "personal attacks". If you file another frivolous action on ], or again poke William M. Conolley with a stick, you will be banned from the Requests for enforcement page, or from interacting with or discussing WMC, whichever your behaviour makes more appropriate. Please edit constructively. ] | ] 01:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC).
: And WMC's numerous filing of far more frivolous complaints is, of course, ignored as usual? ]<sup>]</sup> 01:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:43, 24 September 2010

/Anatomy of an NPOV Disaster - Swift Vets and POWs for Truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:LINKSTOAVOID

Ownership

Please stop assuming ownership of articles such as Swift Vets and POWs for Truth‎. Doing so may lead to disruptive behavior such as edit wars and is a violation of policy, which may lead to a block from editing. Continuing to blanket revert with the edit summary NICW "Controversial Topic" - Please discuss before editing - see discuss will lead to a block for disruptive behavior. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Swiftboating article

Jake - There has been a flurry of editing over at the Swiftboating article, with all sorts of opinion and wrong information thrown in. You are good about checking in on these articles, so I thought you'd want to know about that one too. I've tried to return it to its "original" version, but am pretty sure there will be plenty more edits made. Maybe there should be some sort of editing lock put on the page for awhile, 'till things settle down... ? --EECEE (talk) 08:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

EECEE, I've managed to stay clear of that imbroglio and have too much on my personal plate right now to even go near it.
I will say this tho, the "controversial" placard is on the talk page for a sound reason and its guidance should be adhered to religiously, threats of "ownership" notwithstanding. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, thanks Jake.--EECEE (talk) 07:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Jake - I am aware of the potentially controversial nature of the article, but I think that my edit did not insert any controversial information. I just added the link to "swiftboating" as a term into the article header because I noticed that it was only mentioned 5 pages into the article... Since my edit is neither substantial nor particularly partisan (in my opinion), I decided to be bold and forego an exhaustive discussion pre-edit. If you think that this is wrong, please say so. - Marcika (talk) 12:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Nice

I like your username haha. A8UDI 18:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

External links & malware

Because I was unsuccessful in soliciting advice on this subject from individual users, I've raised the issue at the External Links Noticeboard. Since you've got all the details, I suggest you explain the whole issue there.

Full link to the discussion A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 04:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Authorlink

No problem. Figuring out some of the behind the scenes stuff like templates can take a while. Happy editing! Coemgenus 14:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

BLP violation notification

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#BLP_vios_now_in_retaliation_on_the_World_Net_Dailying You are summoned there. Jon Osterman (talk) 14:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Alleged BLP violation notification

It is generally advisable to utilize the following Misplaced Pages recommended language in an AN/I alert to a fellow editor...

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

"Summoned" presents a rather pugilistic tone that is discouraged in the Misplaced Pages process...and the more appropriate word is "alleged".

For anyone interested in the response: WP/ANI Archive 602 --JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

ANI report

Though you're probably already aware, I have reported your recent disruptive behavior to WP:ANI. I also take offense that you made an accusation against me at ANI without giving notice. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

That's "alleged" disruptive behavior. For anyone interested in the response: WP ANI Archive 602--JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliable Source

Would you mind letting me know when it is safe to edit the WorldNetDaily article, I don't mind waiting until your discussion is through. I only chanced upon the article today and knew little about them - only that a lot of the article content was obviously original research and without sources. Cheers. Weakopedia (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Replied at my talk page.--Happysomeone (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

See your user page

Congrats and good job Weaponbb7 (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick note

Just letting you know I haven't forgotten our discussions. Been a bit preoccupied very recently, but it is still very high on my list and I expect to be giving it more of my attention very soon. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the advisory...and, given yesterday's activity, I'm encouraged that the RS/N is still there to respond to. BTW, your willingness to at least engage is rather singular...and commendable. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Just a note

I'm not an admin. I'm just trying to keep the talk page readable. Thanks for giving the table a better title. --TS 23:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

...but the editor who reinstated your edit is. For the record, I would never and have never, ever presumed to edit the content or even the format of some other editor's contribution to a "talk" environment without at least the courtesy of some explanation or dialogue as to a rationale. Quite frankly, the thought of "collapsing" that table hadn't even occured to me...and, after some consideration, I actually LIKE it better that way (save for the title) and probably would have been easily swayed by a moment of dialogue. Kinda has that allure of viewing something hidden, ya know? Anyway, I suppose I could have been less caustic in my initial revert, and for that I apologize...but it's awful WARM in there right now. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Some advice

Take a break from your arguments about WND at WP:RSN. Let the current thread about WND fade into the archives naturally. By pushing this as you are, you run the risk of turning away editors who might actually support you.

Come back to RSN when you have a question about a specific citation supporting a specific statement in a specific article (ie "Is X from WND reliable for saying Y in article Z (include a link to dif so people can see exactly what you are talking about). Blueboar (talk) 23:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the advice and the spirit in which it is offered (seriously). However, I believe this RS/N road being traveled on WND may well pay possible dividends, not only for a more clear and credible assertion as to WND RS, but to RS considerations to other "sources" subject to the same, incessant RS/N inquiries as well. I believe Xenophrenic has that same type of resolution in mind...albeit a different "consensus".
As to the current imbroglio, it strains credulity (IMHO), given the opinions expressed in these 2 RS/N's thus far, that this ongoing RS/N might be considered even nearly "resolved" or that, even were a legitimate statement of "consensus" to be made right now, that the curent declared "consensus" could even pass a smell test. The next WND RS "objection" is going to point right back to that abominable "summary" of "consensus". No thanks Blueboar. Just...no thanks. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that is a serious mistake. You really are coming across as the one being disruptive in all this. I strongly suspect that if you continue to push it, you will end up being blocked for a while. Still... its your call. Blueboar (talk) 00:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm making every effort I can muster to keep this current discussion academic...but examining "sacred cows" is not without some potential consequence I guess. Your call right now, I'd suggest, Blueboar, is to examine the evidence and make a determination as to the validity of David Eppstein's summary archive. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I have already done so... and found both his arguments and yours to be flawed. My opinion on the whole WND debate is that it should end... now... and only be re-opened if and when specifics are supplied as to exactly what material from WND we are talking about, and what statement in which article we are talking about. Blueboar (talk) 02:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Quite respectfully, you are simply being unresponsive to the question. Anyone rational should be more than capable of making a qualified assessment based on the material I presented versus Eppstein's "summation", nor has he presented ANY "argument" in defense of that assessment more than parroting the same overripe assessment of the earlier archiver...but thanks anyway. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Correct... I am intentionally being unresponsive... because the entire debate centers on a false premise. Blueboar (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Final warning

If you remove Blaxthos' opinion from your chart again (, ) I will seek to have you restricted from further editing of RSN or it's accompanied talk page. Only warning. Hipocrite (talk) 01:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

He is not changing your comments or their meaning. He is placing his opinion within a table which you happened to have made. Removing his input is a violation of what you continue to claim. –Turian (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
My summary of participating editor's contributions to the RS/N was made on the occasion of the premature and unilateral archiving of the RS/N. At the time of that archival, User:Blaxthos had made no contribution to either RS/N and would have had no bearing on the validity of the "archive summary" as it currently exists. If he wants a new chart, I'd suggest he makes his own to make whatever point it is he wishes to assert. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources noticeboard & AN/I

Note: For any interested observer: AN/I Petition JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this and the spurious report you made to the edit-warring noticeboard, please take this as notice that if you continue to act in a non-collegial and disruptive manner on this page, you may be blocked or otherwise restricted from editing this page. Black Kite 13:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Spurious?
All text that you did not write yourself, except brief excerpts, must be available under terms consistent with Misplaced Pages's Terms of Use before you submit it.
Remarkable. Quite remarkable...and quite a precedent indeed. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Precedent? Sorry - no. You made a report to the edit-warring noticeboard which did not contain any edits by the editors you mentioned which violated any of the policies for which that noticeboard exists. Thus it is spurious. Indeed, the only person that appears to be edit-warring and causing disruption at the RSN is yourself. This is not a difficult concept - if you post anything outside your own userspace on Misplaced Pages you agree that it may be edited by other people subject of course to our policies on talkpage etiquette, civility, edit-warring and other collegial guidelines. If you do not want that to happen, then the only thing for you to do is create your content in your own sandbox and link to from the RSN page. And even then, if it contains comments about the opinions of other editors which they do not believe is correct, they can ask to have those comments corrected or removed. Black Kite 16:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll presume no further on your time or mine attempting to demonstrate to you that the editing of the content I authored fundamentally altered the purpose for which I composed it. Nor will I further suggest the relevancy of the PRIMARY directive under Talk page guidlines,Editing Comments, Other's Comments which reads as follows...
Never edit someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.
Nor will I attempt to demonstrate to you the breadth of diversity of opinion on the topic nor the speciousness of the "summary archive" imposed by the "archiver" that is demonstrated by that table I authored. Nor will I argue further that you have set a "precedent" indeed for something I haven't seen the likes of (the editing of another author's COMMENTS in "talk" ) in my 5+ years of editing in this medium.
Good day to you sir. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, last attempt; if you post information on a talkpage which purports to represent all interested editor's views on an issue, you should not be surprised if (a) editors who you've missed out add themselves to that information, or (b) if editors who believe you've misrepresented them change that information. It's as simple as that. If you don't want your edits altering, don't attempt to represent anyone's opinion but your own without their express permission. I hope that's clear now. Thanks, Black Kite 18:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
...if you post information on a talkpage which purports to represent all interested editor's views on an issue,...
Um...you left out a rather salient qualifier, "...who had contributed to the RS/N prior to the archival". Do you even have a clue about what's transpiring in that discussion, more particularly, in those edits?
...and may I also add (as long as you insist on pursuing the subject), it might have been, shall we say, somewhat Solomonesque had you been even 1/10th as solicitous of my position prior to pronouncing your summary execution.JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, from a brief view of the entire talkpage it appears that you are agitating for this website to be regarded as a reliable source for citations other than about itself, when there is a long history of general consensus that it is not. Would that be a correct summary? Incidentally, I just had a brief look at the website myself, clicked on the first news story () and saw adverts for "NOBAMA" t-shirts, an advert saying "Stop Liberal Media Bias!", ad no less than seven special offers - from the website itself - for anti-Obama merchandise. This doesn't strike me as something that anyone should be claiming as a reliable source, any more than over here in the UK we'd try to use the Morning Star, for example. Black Kite 19:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Sir. The venue for your exploration of the RS/N issues are the RS/N's, not my talk page. The venue for the exploration of my petition should have been the AN/I, not my talk page. I'm done here. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
P.S. & FYI User talk:Blaxthos#Edit warring JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

WND & "Sacred Cows"

Jake, why are you so concerned about this one source? The Internet contains dozens/hundreds of reliable sources (BBC News, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, etc.). Why not just find another one?

BTW, I suggest you drop this soon. You're starting to piss off the regulars at WP:RSN. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

While it shouldn't surprise you (and, if it does, then I'd suggest both myself and Xenophrenic have failed dismally to inspire it), at this point WND's WP:RS status has paled in importance, IMHO, relative to the importance of elevating RS/N's on ideologically biased sources to something more than vote tabulations to see who can gather the most "me too's". Perhaps a hypothetical...
Assume, for the sake of argument, that a "Consensus" is illegitimate in its foundation in fact...and let's call it a "sacred cow". The veracity and viability of that "sacred cow" can only be maintained by the REPETITION of its existence by its progenitors and adherents. Under what method of legitimate intellectual examination for validity might that "sacred cow" be tested WITHOUT inspiring some frustration and/or subsequent allegations of "disruption" by those same progenitors and/or proponents? Suppose we start there? The floor is yours.
P.S. I've taken the liberty of re-titling the section. Plz feel free to amend it at your discretionJakeInJoisey (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
At best, you can open a RfC or post a message at WP:V and ask for more feedback. However, this might be seen as forum-shopping and disruptive behavior, so I don't recommend it at this point. I recommend you find a source like BBC News, Washington Post, etc. for your cites. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I recommend you find a source like BBC News, Washington Post, etc. for your cites.
"Cites" to what purpose? These 2 WND RS/N's passed well beyond a consideration of specific cites to a consideration of the totality of WND WP:RS long ago. (on Edit) In fact, upon re-consideration, the RS/N themselves, as presented, don't even refer to specific cites. Your comment is not clear. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Fan Mail

How about you stop being disruptive and whiny? All of these problems have stemmed from your behavior. It must be easy pointing the finger at someone else for all of your problems. Also, you have no right to edit his post. Sound familiar? It's the dead horse you beat the hell out of yet yelled at others for doing the same. –Turian (talk) 14:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Always a delight to see you stopping by Turian...and your provision of Exhibit 1 is timely and appreciated. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

I thought the polite request above to stop disrupting the RS/N talkpage was fairly clear - so I'm not entirely sure why you thought this and some of the other edits you made to the page today would be a good idea. Removing a personal attack? Fine. Refactoring other people's comments yet again? Disruptive. Thus...

You have been temporarily blocked from editing for persistent disruption at WP:RS/N after repeated warnings. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Black Kite 14:27, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Your notation and acknowledgement that a "personal attack" was leveled against me within the RS/N "talk" environment is appreciated. However, for clarity and so that I might fully comprehend the rationale for this block, please cite, specifically, the instances of "Refactoring other people's comments yet again" to which you refered but did not specify. Thank you. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I would not have had a problem with you removing the "troll" part of Blaxthos' comment. However, removing all of his comments, not just that part, was incorrect. More importantly, the link I gave above shows you removing David Eppstein's comment and replacing it with your own which is exactly what you were told not to keep doing above. Black Kite 14:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
And, just for the record, another fact. What you refer to as "David Eppstein's comment" had, in fact, already been edited. Oh yes, his "sig" was still on it, but it was no longer "his" comment. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate both your consideration of my inquiry and your reply. Now, if I understand your position correctly, I am being "blocked" due to my "refactoring" (assumedly the same as "removal" in toto) of Blaxthos' "Disruptive Behavior" section in the RS/N "Talk" environment and because my "edit" of the existing "archival summary" composition was "disruptive". I should have noted this in my first inquiry, but you also mention "some of the other edits you made to the page today" as reflecting, perhaps, the antithesis of "a good idea" inre, I can only assume, editorial contribution. Shall I assume that equates to being "disruptive" as well? If so, can you please cite, specifically, the "other edits" to which your observation refers? Thank you. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

WND discussions & "Block" Imposition

Just so you know... I have archived both the discussions about WND on the main RSN board and the disruptive talk page discussions. I left the "archive summary" in your version (this means you can say you "won" the debate about that and you have no reason to de-archive it). I hope you will consider the matter closed when you return from your block. Blueboar (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It is somewhat ironic that your apparent desire to just "make this go away" has, in effect, simply assured that the same issue will now be resurrected again, still in fine fettle, in an assuredly upcoming RS/N. I tried. I believe Xenophrenic tried (though not nearly as hard)...and at least one other contributor saw some wisdom in making the effort.
As to my personal views on your particular contributions to this RS/N (though you appear to be under little or no personal constraint in offering your observations on or characterizations of MY contributions), in the interest of peace on earth, I'll decline to comment...save for one observation.
IMHO, it is only by the slimmest of threads and vestiges of personal intellectual integrity you have remnant that I would even choose to consider entertaining your observations...on anything. I believe you knew (all along) that the "archival summary" statement by David Eppstein wouldn't even pass a smell test no less an examination as to the veracity of its summation. My now-infamous "table" (relatively speaking anyway) put the "fallacy" stamp to that...pronto. Yet you said or did NOTHING to rebut that patent untruth...simply because you were unhappy with the "framing" of the "question" as posed in the RS/N. Some "profile in courage". Not until the RS/N was on life-support did you finally man-up enough to state what you KNEW to be true all along...that the "archival summary" was FALSE...and you took the a step necessary to correct the summary. You can sleep better at night for that. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Given the issues raised in the previous RS/N, I would suggest that any further discussion of this issue be raised at an RfC, because I am pretty sure that the patience of the RS/N board has been exhausted by now. This would allow you to frame your arguments in a far more neutral venue and one that has many more eyes on it than RS/N. Black Kite
With all due respect sir, this (cough) "discussion" was initiated by more gratuitous insult guised as informative comment. As to your participation in this issue, I have made an inquiry (as I believe I am entitled to do) as to the exact nature of the rationale for the "block" you have imposed. Rather than cluttering my talk page with "advice" as to how to further address a subject about which you demonstrably had little or no prior knowledge, perhaps you would better serve your function by responding to my inquiry above so that I might afford myself of some opportunity for defense, an opportunity previously denied me in your last summary execution. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe I have to state the obvious repeatedly. My above comment, however, was actually aimed at enabling you to bring your concerns to a more neutral forum that hasn't already been tainted by the previous issues. This was meant to be helpful to you; you can take it as you wish. this will be my last comment here. However, please note that if you cause disruption at RS/N again, as is suggested by your comment above "the same issue will now be resurrected again, still in fine fettle, in an assuredly upcoming RS/N" it is likely that the community's patience will run out completely. Black Kite 00:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Remarkable. When digging yourself a credibility hole, the best first step is to stop digging. Were you even semi clued-in to the RS/N, you'd understand that my comment..."the same issue will now be resurrected again" is in reference to the PROLIFIC record of prior RS/N debates on WND. My efforts (in tandem with Xenophrenic and, hopefully any other interested editor) was to be an attempt to establish a much more substantive basis upon which to render future judgements. But, perhaps, Xenophrenic expressed it better than I did...
Your basic concern is still warranted, however. Like you, I'd like to see definitive reasoning behind the obvious consensus that WND does not live up to Misplaced Pages's reliability standards. The consensus surely must rest on something more substantive than widespread personal opinion. If this is to be the "FINAL ANSWER", as the header of this discussion indicates, let's push for something engraved in stone - something that can be referenced with confidence in inevitable future discussions of this nature. But where, or whom do we push? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Instead, you characterize my comment as some veiled threat of planned for future disruption. Why am I not surprised?
As to "I don't believe I have to state the obvious repeatedly", I assume you are refering to my petition for you to fulfill your obligation to inform me of the exact nature of the rationale for imposing the "block". I will repeat it again as you have apparently overlooked it...
I should have noted this in my first inquiry, but you also mention "some of the other edits you made to the page today" as reflecting, perhaps, the antithesis of "a good idea" inre, I can only assume, editorial contribution. Shall I assume that equates to being "disruptive" as well? If so, can you please cite, specifically, the "other edits" to which your observation refers? Thank you.
Please advise me of the specific "other edits" to which you refered. It's your function. Thank you. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Actually my "function" here isn't to keep answering your increasingly wikilawyering questions. But since you ask, the two edits were the one linked above (which frankly given your previous record was enough for a block on its own) and this which removed far more content that could be argued for by claiming to remove a personal attack. And that's after such edits as this, this and this, which included claims of vandalism against other users in good standing and which you were previously warned about, not to mention other issues like your spurious report to the edit-warring noticeboard or your edit-war with other users on the Swift Boat article which appeared to start this whole issue off. Now, please post an unblock request if you wish to be unblocked. Thanks. Black Kite 11:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Now, please post an unblock request if you wish to be unblocked. Thanks.

I am not soliciting either suggestions, gratuitous presumptions from you as to my rationale for requesting clarification, gratuitous characterizations of my request itself nor a rehash of your perceptions of what transpired prior to issuance of this block. What I am soliciting, as is my understanding of Misplaced Pages policy regarding the imposition of "blocks",...

Notifying the blocked user
Administrators must supply a clear and specific block reason which indicates why a user was blocked. Block reasons should avoid the use of jargon as much as possible so that blocked users may better understand them.

...is the clarification of your stated rationale.

This is what you offered in that regard...

I thought the polite request above to stop disrupting the RS/N talkpage was fairly clear - so I'm not entirely sure why you thought this and some of the other edits you made to the page today would be a good idea. Removing a personal attack? Fine. Refactoring other people's comments yet again? Disruptive. Thus...

Your reference to "...some of the other edits you made to the page today would be a good idea" is nebulous and non-specific.

On my request for specificity, rather than identifying "other edits you made to the page today" (April 6), you, instead, offer a rehash of edits made PRIOR to "today" (April 4th to be exact), which, as you also noted, had already been the subject of prior "warnings" resulting from my previously submitted AN/I. Do you now wish to amend or clarify your original blocking rationale? In fact, wasn't this "block" triggered solely by the only 2 edits you specified? --JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me spare you the trouble...
Upon further examination of my "contributions" (disruptions?), the lack of specificity as to "other edits to the page today" becomes clear. There were no "other edits". Here, in their entirety, are ALL edits I made to either the RS/N OR the RS/N "Talk" page after your "final warning"...
  • 09:37, 5 April 2010 Black Kite (talk | contribs) (13,405 bytes) (?Final warning: definitely a last warning): (diff)
...posted to my talk page on 5 April:
  • 08:24, 6 April 2010 (hist | diff) Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ‎ (purposefully unsigned as any archival summation should reflect a consensus of contributing editors - see discussion): (diff)
  • 08:30, 6 April 2010 (hist | diff) Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ? (?Archival "Summary" of RS/N: new section): (diff)
  • 08:34, 6 April 2010 (hist | diff) Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ? (additional text): (diff)
  • 08:49, 6 April 2010 (hist | diff) Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ? (personal attack removed as inappropriate and irrelevant within this talk environment): (diff)
  • 08:51, 6 April 2010 (hist | diff) Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ? (Inappropriate forum in which to launch personal attacks or to allege "disruptive bahavior"): (diff)
That's it, and then...
  • 10:27, 6 April 2010 Black Kite (talk | contribs) (23,572 bytes) (Blocked):
As the "contribution" record clearly evidences, I made NO "...other edits to the page today" and your offered rationale for the imposition of the block was unclear. In fact, your imposition of the "block" is based solely upon the 2 edits you actually cited.
In your reply today to a post by Blaxthos on your "Talk" page, you stated the following (emphasis mine)...
Yes, I agree - I was merely pointing out to JJ that if he had merely removed the "troll" comment he might've had the defence that he was removing a personal attack; however, he removed the entire comment, and then went on to refactor other people's comments, so he has little defence. Black Kite 23:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I would be considerably interested in being apprised of just where it is you purport I "went on to refactor other people's comments"? JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

JakeInJoisey (block logactive blocksglobal blockscontribsdeleted contribsfilter logcreation logchange block settingsunblockcheckuser (log))


Request reason:

2 edits were offered by the imposing admin to warrant blocking... *1. The RS/N "Archival summary" edit cited marked the start of my edit and was NOT "disruptive". The end product still resides, as I submitted it (and, in fact, supported by another editor) in the now-archived RS/N. In addition, I created a "Talk" section to support discussion of this edit. Is this an example of "disruptive" editing for which I should have been blocked? If the submission of an accurate and apparently credible "archive summary" is "disruptive", then a "block" is small price to pay for the accurate summation of the fruit of almost one month's worth of RS/N discussion. *2. An editor created a "section" on the RS/N "Talk" page entitled "Disruptive Behavior" (original edit now inaccessible in archive). In that section my contributions were attacked as "disruptive" and I was labeled a "troll". I removed that section as inappropriate content for the "Talk" environment as there are much more appropriate Misplaced Pages processes designed specifically to entertain and consider such allegations. The "block" imposing admin upheld my deletion of the "troll" content but found my deletion of the remainder to be "disruptive". Are allegations of "disruption" any less offensive or appropriate than "troll" epithets or any less "disruptive" to a consensus building process within a talk environment? If it is considered acceptable conduct under Misplaced Pages guidelines that editors can, at their discretion, launch accusations of "disruptive editing" within a sectioned "Talk Page" environment, then my deletion of that section was unwarranted and the imposition of a temporary "block" on my further editing was justifiable. I would suggest, however, that it is NOT acceptable content for a "Talk" page environment and urge any reviewing authority to consider the implications before deeming it to be so.

Decline reason:

This edit alone would be sufficient for a preventative block - refactoring a summary comment for a closure with completely different wording and meaning is beyond acceptable. I have taken a lot of time to review every single one of your contributions since that - no matter how minor. Although you have wide latitude on your own talkpage, you moved, renamed, and cherry-picked (ie kept some, deleted others) posts from another user - changing the title to "fan mail" when it clearly was nothing of the sort. These actions completely modified the intended meaning of the message. The rather intensive wikilawyering since, and the WP:BATTLE attitude prior shows that this is a good block: surprisingly short, but valid. I do hope that you return to editing in a more collegial manner, and worry less about the WP:TRUTH. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:01, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

This edit alone would be sufficient for a preventative block - refactoring a summary comment for a closure with completely different wording and meaning is beyond acceptable.

Interesting observation, given that the original "summary content" had ALREADY been edited (and, I'd suggest, rightfully so), but NOT by ME. In fact, the "synopsis" as written was not even based on the editor's OWN synopsis, but upon the opinion of another editor's prior attempt to archivewhich was criticized by the majority of editors who chose to comment within the "Talk" discussion on the issue.

An archival header offering a "summation" of an RS/N is hardly the bailiwick for the unilateral imposition of a SINGLE editor's PERSONAL synopsis of content. Nor is the Misplaced Pages propriety of even PRESUMING to unilaterally and manually "close" an ongoing RS/N settled, to say NOTHING of incorporating and imposing a single editor's PERSONAL synopsis within that "archival summary" as "gospel".

This RS/N has opened a veritable "Pandora's Box" of issues not the least of which is the degree of Misplaced Pages editorial protection that should be afforded to any editor's "contributions". I hope to explore them in more depth within an appropriate Misplaced Pages venue. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Good article review

The article is a Good Article nominee. Please see the box at the top of Talk:DeSmogBlog. It might also be nice if you moved your comment out of review - it's cluttered enough as is. Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your respose and hope you understand it in the spirit it is being offered. That being said, you've not really addressed my question. Are these "Good Article Reviews" normally appended to the bottom of an article talk page as well as being noted at the top?
Also, I fully intend to delete my comments from your "review" as I've no desire to clutter your "review process" with "wiki process" questions.
Thanks JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes GA Reviews have their own talk page but that page is transcluded to the article's talk page. This allows for a degree of transparency so other editors can see what is happening and add comments if they see fit. Once the review is completed it is added to the article's history, which appears at the top of the page. Hope this answers your question. If you'd like more information on the GA Review process you can go to WP:GAC and read all about it. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 20:20, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate the information. I've just never seen this in talk before. I'll delete my "wiki process" comments from the review. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I've just reviewed WP:GAC and I see nothing suggesting or recommending that the review be "transcluded" to the article talk page. My problem with this is that it appears to be an unwarranted manipulation of the process going above and beyond what appears to be the conceptualization of a WP:GAC...which is the voluntary review by a single editor.
WP:GAC contains the following instruction...
  • Read the whole article, and decide whether it should pass or fail based on the criteria listed here. You can also put the article "On Hold" or ask for a second opinion. If you wish, you can inform the nominator of your actions (e.g., using {{subst:GANotice}}). The template {{subst:FGAN}} may help you organize the critique. You can also use {{subst:GAList}} or {{subst:GAList2}} to generate a checklist.
  • Reviewers are encouraged (but not required) to fix problems with the article under review.
Nowhere does it recommend appending a copy of the "review" to the "talk" page which, IMHO, adds unnecessary clutter to the page itself.
Perhaps, however, this is more a matter for Misplaced Pages talk:Good article nominations? JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

RS/N and RfC

I have commented here. Hope I helped! --Jubileeclipman 18:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Jubilee, as I read the WP:RfC information, they are generally utilized to solicit additional input on issues that may arise in the editing of a particular article and are to be placed within the respective article "talk" page. "Noticeboard" discussions are a different breed of cat than are "articles" and their "talk" pages are not designed to host "discussions" ongoing within the noticeboards themselves but rather issues related to the noticeboard itself. However, individual noticeboard discussions can also benefit from additional input just as much as can "article" discussions, hence my inquiry. I hope that clarifies the reason for my query. Thanks. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts at getting more participation in the RSN discussion, but it still seems to me the best way to try to find a consensus on this subject is to do an RfC and advertise it at CENT as you suggest. Cla68 (talk) 23:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Colgan/Frontline

I wanted follow up on one comment you made about the Frontline episode. You called it a "hatchet job". Of course everyone should draw their own conclusions but I was curious about how your developed yours.

After you watched the episode, did you also read any of the other press reports around this issue to see whether Frontline is indeed an outlier? Here are a few: USA Today, MSNBC, The Wall Street Journal, LA Times, The Associate Press (picked up by several papers), The New York Times, Fox News. There are more from a variety of sources at different times since the accident.

Finally, given that the FAA is opening up a special summit on the issue of airline safety following Colgan , suggests that there are systemic issues and Frontline is not the only entity questioning this.

Anyway, let me know.Mattnad (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually "hit job" was my euphemism of choice and that characterization was utilized based on your earlier contribution to the article itself and the ensuing dialogue in both "talk" and the RS/N. I have not seen the Frontline episode itself and am not particularly interested in the issue. My concern with the edit is/was a matter of propriety under WP:UNDUE given the proposed "guidance" of the WikiProject which was rather interestingly struck apparently to accommodate your edit and which, I suspect, will probably be addressed by interested members of the WikiProject at their convenience. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The proposed guidance of the wikiproject had its own issues that another editor saw fit to question including instructions for blanket censorship of anything that was not from a short list of sources. I doubt those would survive any serious debate in Misplaced Pages. And sorry about misquoting you. But I'm still interested in getting your reaction to the Frontline piece and the multiple other articles when you have a chance. You may change your mind. No hurry.Mattnad (talk) 13:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I doubt those would survive any serious debate in Misplaced Pages.
Perhaps so, perhaps not. I suppose that will be determined if/when interested WikiProject participants (of which I am not) choose to address it.
But I'm still interested in getting your reaction to the Frontline piece and the multiple other articles when you have a chance.
Sorry, but I'm really not interested in the regional airline safety issue. If you feel that strongly about it, I suggest you consider creating an article to host it. I believe your current edit reflects a fair consensus under the status quo and I'm moving on. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Believe it or not, I didn't actually notice your change to the header... thanks for changing it back though. ++Lar: t/c 13:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

While I'm loathe to go anywhere near the CC "black hole", I will use this opportunity to commend you (overdue) for your fortitude in wading in and swimming upstream. I believe you have your finger on the pulse of just what ails this Misplaced Pages medium and your efforts, thus far, have been Olympian.
I'll also offer one observation. There are 2 "loyalties" at play here, one ideological and the other allegiance to the Misplaced Pages concept/principles of conduct. It is plainly clear that, for some on the "administrative" level, the former will trump the latter everytime. How that level of bias and demonstrable subjugation of fundamental Misplaced Pages guidelines continues to be countenanced by ongoing "administrator" status is beyond my level for consideration...and both disquieting and bewildering. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Please

Please try to not make comments like this "I'll anxiously await the debut of your sequel, "'The Gore Effect' Effect". Hurry before "Scrappleface" gets hold of this. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:10, 13 June 2010 (UTC)" and question a users language skills as you do here. Ask in a polite way that you don't understand what he/she says. Secondly, it's not illegal to edit Misplaced Pages if you're not an native speaker… Nsaa (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect for your multi-lingual capability, I'd suggest you are both misreading, misinterpreting and over-reacting to my brief inquiry and comment, perhaps because of some personal hyper-sensitivity on the subject of editing second-language article content.
If you will take a moment to note the following exchange which preceded my comment, it was not I who initially raised the question of some communication difficulty...
I guess if my vote got Polentario to push back with such incoherent blather, it bodes well for my point. Sl?ggo 17:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Uf the enWP wants to stay the The Village That Voted The Earth Was Flat, go all along. --Polentario (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I guess if my vote...ah, the hell with it. Thanks, buddy. Sl?ggo 17:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Please note in particular Polentario's response. It is, in fact, incomprehensible and I fully concur with Sl?ggo's characterization...which also reflected my own recently growing sense that Polentario's command of written English can be, at times, somewhat deficient.
My query was simply to confirm that fact and, upon confirmation, I was quick to praise his demonstrated capability...
Well, his English is a farsight better than my German...
That being said, I'm always reluctant to edit another editor's contributions for what I deem to be simply poor composition skills, and, now fully aware of the situation inre Polentario, I said...
I'll feel less restrained in the future editing his contributions there.
Perhaps a better word might have been "reticent", but my query and subsequent comment were neither uncivil nor barbed...as you appear to have interpreted them.
Ask in a polite way that you don't understand what he/she says.
If and when the occasion arises, that would be my natural instinct.
Secondly, it's not illegal to edit Misplaced Pages if you're not an native speaker…
That's what, apparently, you think I said, not what I actually said. Please read, again, my quote and feel free to comment accordingly if you're so inclined...
I'm not sure he's quite up to editing English article content.
Perhaps I could have added "without compositional corrections", but I'll stand by that assessment which is demonstrable in some of his edit's thus far to "The Gore Effect". For the record and as far as I'm concerned, he's welcome to edit as he pleases but should probably anticipate corrective compositional edits when he does.
As to your initial observation on "The 'Gore Effect' Effect", I'll simply note without further comment. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry if I misinterpreted you here. I've just seen a lot of not so good communication between the waring fractions on the AGW-area, and it's a bit unpleasant to be there, so maybe I'm a bit anxious ... Best regards Nsaa (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
No prob...and good effort with your citation work. Ciao ! JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Please refactor

This is a rather blatant failure in assumption of good faith. Perhaps you should try to address issues not editors? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I think not. In fact, it is entirely plausible for you to be AGF and still exhibit PRECISELY the characteristics and editing behavior I stated. Good day. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The failure in assumption of good faith is yours - not mine. Does that clear it up? Even if you think that i am wrong, you are required to assume good faith. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
As I stated above, my observations on your position are not inconsistent with an assumption on my part that you were/are acting in good faith. In fact, in my tenure in this medium, that accusation against another editor has never crossed my keypad. And you?
I believe you are quite wrong in your good faith understanding of Misplaced Pages policy inre BLP policy and article tagging (as apparently do many others), but I have no issues with your being anything other than good faith wrong. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Worse than tiresome

I'll look into it further. If I've misinterpreted something else, please feel free to tell me. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Please point me to the ongoing discussion

Where is the ongoing discussion about "sometimes"? Active Banana (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Consensus building has to start somewhere...and nothing is written in granite. While you're free to try to score rhetorical points as you please, I'd suggest participation in an attempt at consensus building to be a more fruitful use of your time and talent but...whatever floats yer boat. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:17, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Request

I am under a restriction currently which prohibits my inserting new references into any climate change related article. If you have time would you look over the refs used in this article to ensure they all meet wp standards, thanks mark nutley (talk) 15:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Mark, I'm sorry but I would really prefer to remain at arm's length from the CC imbroglio. "The Gore Effect" is as close as I want to get to it and that's already giving me agita. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Fully understand mate, thanks anyway :) mark nutley (talk) 15:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see my talk page

I have another response to your comment there. Thanks. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

AGW

If you care, I know. Ask William M. Connolley (talk) 15:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I've reviewed what appear to be the relevant deliberations on the question I raised as linked to by JohnWBarber. Your opinion appears to be already well-represented there and, unless you've overlooked some additional contribution that warrants mention or clarification, I don't see any purpose in repeating them here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

RfC for Media Matters for America at WP:RS

Hello there. You recently participated in a discussion at WP:ANI regarding the systematic removal of Media Matters for America as a reliable source. I've started an RfC regarding MMfA, MRC, FAIR, Newsbusters etc. Please participate on the Reliable Sources Talk page here. Skoal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Chelsea Clinton

Hello. I accidentally reverted your deletion of some info in the article. I was giving my revert second thoughts when I hit Save instead of Show. Can I revert my own stupid mistake or does it have to be done by someone else? I want to avoid the 3RR abyss. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:26, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Just self-revert and it doesn't count for any 3RR. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, but somebody beat me to it! :) Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:52, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Playschool humour on ANI

Your ten insertions in my shortish post have of course rendered that post unreadable. Would you like to rescue it by removing your wit? Bishonen | talk 15:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by JakeInJoisey (talkcontribs)
Playschool humor? Wit? Hardly. A demonstration of the absurdity inherent in your peevish (playschoolish?) harrassment and wikilawyering against another admin's legitimate and MOST appropriate (I'd venture you'll soon learn) exercise of his responsibility to this medium? Precisely. Nor am I unmindful of the condescending, puerile and too-cute-by-half title with which you labeled (and for which, IMHO, The Wordsmith is due an apology) this patently vindictive AN/I.
Your ten insertions in my shortish post have of course rendered that post unreadable.
Perhaps your post was, indeed, rendered "unreadable" to some, though I "made it very clear which bits were inserted" by me and "didn't actually change" your post. I'm encouraged that you now seem to better comprehend the "readability" ramifications of the Pandora's box which you apparently, rather self-servingly and short-sightedly, now advocate for opening.
While WP:POINTing appears to be at the heart of your AN/I, my WP:POINT has been made (and acknowledged) and I will revert, with appropriate apologies to the community, my "non-edit". JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
BlackKite appears to have beat me to the punch. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Your WP:PA in the title of this section is objectionable. Please change it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Your humour is not amusing, it is rude and childish, hence the playschool reference. Cutting-in to posts by another user inappropriate. You should have been blocked, again, for disruptive editing. Jack Merridew 21:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

ANI regarding SemDem

I started an ANI regarding SemDem. His comments on the talkpage and the Daily Kos comments are too close to dismiss. At the minimum he is working closely with the Daily Kos poster. Arzel (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't believe this needs to be escalated to that level nor do I believe that "proof" of the off-wiki co-identity or collusion (without an admission by the perp involved) can be established to a degree that might warrant admin intervention . IMHO, the canvassing and attempted RfC vote-stacking itself does their position no service and you should, perhaps, be grateful for the ham-handedness of the opposition. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I only think it needs to be escalated in order to try to prevent future attempts. If the Daily Kos people think this methods works in the least then they will do it again in the future on other topics. Arzel (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Fox News Channel controversies

Maybe not your intent, but I thought that was funny. =P Akerans (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Gallows humor? :) JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Not gallows, felt more like slapstick. Akerans (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually, it was standup. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The best Michael Winslow impersonation ever. Akerans (talk) 02:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Partisan sources

I have proposed an edit for the mainspace of an important Misplaced Pages policy, the Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources policy. Essentially, I believe that some sources are so partisan that using them as "reliable sources" invites more problems than they're really worth. You've previously participated in the RfC on this subject, or another related discussion indicating that you are interested in this important policy area. Please indicate here whether you support or oppose the proposed edit. The original discussion is here. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Strong exception

Jake, I take strong exception to your recent request for sources. It is absolutely and totally dilatory and counterproductive. A few days ago, when I posted sources, you replied "WP:V for the "criticism" is uncontested and irrelevant to the RfC." Now you are claiming those sources (split between news articles and editorials) either were not in evidence or from unreliable sources. Every one of them is a mainstream media source. I would request you consider your position and state it succinctly; I have little patience for moving goalposts. --TeaDrinker (talk) 01:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

My "goalposts" have not moved one inch since the inception of this discussion...but your apparent inability to consistently comprehend the issue is both remarkable and frustrating. WP:V for the "criticism" IS uncontested but that is NOT the issue raised in the RfC (which was, in hindsight, HIGHLY prejudicial among its more notable faults). The issue is whether or not this "criticism" warrants inclusion as a valid "Fox News Controversy". Are we on the same page so far? JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I appreciated you earlier pointing out that I was using criticism and controversy interchangeably, which might have led to some confusion. I believe I follow your argument, which is that the criticism or controversy itself must, in your view, originate from a non-partisan source (or be shared by such a source) to be considered eligible for inclusion. Is this your view? --TeaDrinker (talk) 02:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Is this your view?
Absolutely not. The "originator" of the "criticism" is, in the final equation, irrelevant as long as it can be reasonably demonstrated that the contention (in this case a "Fox News Controversy") is adequately supported by relevant citations from less patently-partisan sources. You stated yourself that Misplaced Pages (if I might paraphrase) "...cannot (and should not)" serve as a platform for the wanton dissemination (and implied endorsement of substance) of partisan propaganda...then you attempted to qualify that statement in a fashion that I'm not sure we mightn't be able to find some qualified agreement. One thing for certain (at least as far as I know), "controversy" in undefined by WP P&G and, without an adequate guideline, it is left for editors to resolve every suggested content inclusion. JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
So you're saying all you ask is for non-partisan reporting on the controversy? Which of my list of 30+ mainstream press outfits did you consider partisan? --TeaDrinker (talk) 02:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Getting closer TeaDrinker, but we're STILL not on the same page. I'm asking for non-partisan (I'll even accept biased, like something from CBS news) that lends substance to the contention that it is A. a "controversy" period and B. a "controversy" that allegedly reflects on the journalistic integrity of "Fox News".
Are we there yet? JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Clearly not. There's no question reliable sources have reported on allegations the donation has undermined the integrity of FOX. Is your confusion on a controversy versus a criticism? --TeaDrinker (talk) 02:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Then the resolution is a simple one. Please provide citations from non-partisan sources (not links to articles) that you purport support your case. Why is this so difficult? JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I gave you more than 30 citations to newspapers and other mainstream media sources. What is wrong with them? --TeaDrinker (talk) 03:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Again. Those are not citations. They are links to articles. A citation is text + attribution. Without text, it's anyone's guess as to what is purported to be relevant. I provided 3 citations (twice, I believe, on your request and about which you made no comment) that argued for non-inclusion as a "Fox News Controversy". JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I think I see your confusion. Actually, citation commonly means just the reference (see citation). An annotation provides a description of the work and it's relevance, but that is rarely included in a citation. I don't think your quotes have demonstrated what you believe they demonstrate, but others have pointed that out as well. But to be clear, if you have citations with annotations, you will accept the material they describe should be included? --TeaDrinker (talk) 04:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
"MY confusion"? A "citation" doesn't exist independent of content it is referencing. Why the word games?
I don't think your quotes have demonstrated what you believe they demonstrate, but others have pointed that out as well.
Then I must have missed some rebuttal. I don't recall anything memorable other than the sound of crickets.
But to be clear, if you have citations with annotations, you will accept the material they describe should be included?
I believe my position should have been rather clear several moons ago. If they support a contention that this is a "Fox News Controversy", I will vote to include. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I think we may have a point of genuine factual confusion. A citation, in the common usage, does not mean with an annotation. In common practice, the reader is expected to independently locate and review the cited material. That's what you got, 30+ citations for you to take to the library. My posting summaries or quotes is just for you. -TeaDrinker (talk) 07:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
In common practice, the reader is expected to independently locate and review the cited material.
In Misplaced Pages practice, specific content is associated with a citation. It might be a paraphrase, it might be a quote. Without provision of specific text from a purported source, a reader is required to make an assumption as to what source content is being referenced. However that specificity is addressed in the English language is what I have been soliciting and is what I provided in the 3 "citations" I offered. If my solicitation (and personal source offerings) failed to adequately demonstrate (3 times) the information I was requesting then I apologize for my failure to communicate.
My posting summaries or quotes is just for you.
...and if 3 of those "summaries" or "quotes" from other than known partisan sources demonstrate that this event is sufficiently notable as a "Fox News Controversy", I will vote to include.

Back to your list of demands. You wrote "You offer Olbermann, Burns, Ed Schultz and Daschle as non-partisan sources?" What is it you're objecting to? I give you national commentators leveling their objections; if you're not rejecting these folks because you think they're biased, why? --TeaDrinker (talk) 07:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Back to your list of demands.
That you choose to characterize my request for information as "demands" is troubling. Nevertheless, this is relevant to the RfC discussion and I won't entertain it further here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm curious where you're getting this "Misplaced Pages practice." I've been here quite some time and this is the first time I have heard that all citations must be annotated. Nevertheless, I trust since now annotations have been provided as well for several independent sources reporting on the criticism, you're in agreement that the content should be included. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm curious where you're getting this "Misplaced Pages practice."
As you appear intent on pursuing an exercice in word parsing rather than reaching an understanding JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC), this will be my final attempt at explaining my request to you. In Misplaced Pages, "citations" serve to validate specific content included in articles and do not exist independent of that content. You can better support your position by citing relevant content from your purported sources and, apparently, have opted to do so.
I trust...you're in agreement that the content should be included.
Not yet...but I'll address that question in the RfC discussion...where it belongs. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Of course I am trying to understand the words you use. I don't understand what it is you would find convincing. Citations to reliable sources which are not partisan which report the criticism, with annotations to those citations so you don't have to look them up. --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Then I'll demonstrate further...
Citations to reliable sources which are not partisan which report the criticism...
Nope...
Citations from reliable sources which are not partisan and support characterization of the "criticism" as a "Fox News Controversy".
Yup.
...with annotations to those citations so you don't have to look them up.
Nope...
...with cited quotes from those sources which can be examined for WP:V
Yup.
JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your continued discussion, however I'm not sure what you mean by "Citations from reliable sources which are not partisan and support characterization of the 'criticism' as a 'Fox News Controversy'." How is that different from reporting the controversy? Are you requiring the source share or take ownership of the criticism/controversy? --TeaDrinker (talk) 18:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
How is that different from reporting the controversy?
First, that's alleged "Fox News Controversy". It would establish that adequate, non-partisan reliable sources would be willing to even report it as an alleged "Fox News Controversy".
Are you requiring the source share or take ownership of the criticism/controversy?
That would certainly make for a stronger inclusion case, though I haven't seen one cited yet. Nevertheless, it is not mandatory.
For a good example of what I reject wholesale, please see the cites from PBS and Channel 4 submitted by Akerans.
Your Kurtz cite, thus far, is not impressive though you do suggest, perhaps, something more relevant...but as yet uncited. However, I will comment further in the RfC...where this belongs. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I understand your interest in returning to the RfC page, if you would not mind, I am following your statements here much more clearly than there. I'd like to request to continue this discussion until I can make sense of the sort of things you believe are necessary to include something. I'm rather frustrated since I keep providing what I think is exactly what you're requesting, only to find it is not quite it. If a non-partisan, reliable source reports on people making criticism, people responding to that criticism, and so on, how is that not reporting a controversy? --TeaDrinker (talk) 19:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
If a non-partisan, reliable source reports on people making criticism, people responding to that criticism, and so on, how is that not reporting a controversy?
TeaDrinker, do you not understand that you are "presuming facts not in evidence" and that verifiability of that "criticism" as a legitimate "Fox News Controversy" is in the language of the RfC itself? The TITLE of this article is "Fox News Controversies". There IS NO Misplaced Pages guidance on what might be considered a "controversy". It is therefore incumbent upon editors to determine, via reliable sourcing, that this is a legitimate "Fox News Controversy". You simply can't rely on hyper-partisan sources to make that determination. You have said so yourself in not so many words...and you keep making the same mistake over and over and over...equating the existence of a hyper-partisan "CRITICISM" with "Fox News Controversy" and failing to see the distinction. THAT question must be answered via the provision of adequate, non-partisan reliable sourcing that reports this News Corp donation "criticism" as being relevant to or even alleged to be relevant to "Fox News" journalistic standing. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to discern what evidence of a controversy you are looking for. If the media source characterizes the back and forth criticism as a "controversy", is that sufficient? --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
A "Fox News Controversy". This is getting ridiculous. The Politico cite was borderline acceptable. Find more like it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Something like (i) calling it a controversy in (ii) the context of a discussion of the impact on FOX News? That is sufficient? --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"Controversy" isn't even required. If it is from a source not generally regarded as partisan (I'll even accept allegedly biased) and reports/suggests/insinuates that the News Corp donation is relevant to a consideration of "Fox News" journalistic integrity, I would accept it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Does that mean the non-partisan source has to take the position that the donation affects Fox's reporting, or can they merely be reporting on the fact that someone else has made that claim? --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
...can they merely be reporting on the fact that someone else has made that claim?
I would probably be inclined to accept that...but, like all sourcing, I'd have to see it in context.
Now Let me try a question on you. Assuming adequate non-partisan sourcing is available and that sourcing makes note that the "Fox News" bashing emanates from partisan sources, would that be appropriate content for inclusion under NPOV considerations? JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I feel like you're leaving yourself lots of wiggle room in saying "I'd be inclined to accept that... but, like all sourcing, I'd have to see the context." Your pattern has been stating things you wanted to see (often, I think it is fair to say, things not required or endorsed by policy or guidelines), being presented with them, and then saying they didn't quite fit what you wanted for one reason or another. I hope you can understand how this is frustrating. Moreover, that's why I brought the discussion here in the first place; I don't find it helpful or rooted in a cooperative model of editing. However to answer your question, certainly, if the media reports are characterizing this as criticism by a particular organization, we should say that. If some say that and others report broader criticism, we should say that. We represent the range of opinion reported in reliable sources, in proportion to the prevalence in those sources. That's based in policy but more importantly, that makes a good encyclopedia, and that's what we should do. --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I feel like you're leaving yourself lots of wiggle room in saying "I'd be inclined to accept that... but, like all sourcing, I'd have to see the context."
Interesting comment...and perhaps reflective of something that warrants further discussion with you when this dust settles.
Your pattern has been stating things you wanted to see (often, I think it is fair to say, things not required or endorsed by policy or guidelines), being presented with them, and then saying they didn't quite fit what you wanted for one reason or another.
I'll exercise some considerable effort and stifle my reaction to that comment. Suffice it to say that your grasp of the issue here has been demonstrably (and self-admittedly) tenuous at best and whatever "perception" you may have developed of my "moving goalposts" is fantasy not supportable by fact. If you're inclined to pursue this further, please provide the diffs that you purport to support your perception and I'll be more than happy to explore it further.
JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Let me be clear, I brought this up with you, not to ANI or some other authority, because I only wanted to make you aware of what could be a problem, not persecute you for it, as well as trying to resolve this editing dispute. I completely admit I don't always get what you're driving at (although I do think I have a firm grasp of the relevant issues). I am still unclear of what you would count as evidence of a controversy. Inclusion on national media or metro daily op/ed pages doesn't count. Descriptions in the national or international press, describing a controversy in regards to FNC don't seem to count either. There are now lengthy lists of citations backing up both points (some now have annotations as well, to make it easy for you to check). Your criteria seem to hold these are insufficient because there's a Washington Post blogger who doesn't think much of the controversy (one who states, in fact, the donation was "widely covered by many other news outlets"). Sometimes you request evidence that the controversy is more than "run of the mill partisan sniping." While maybe this is asking for evidence the criticism is justified (which is obviously impermissible under WP:NPOV), we can take this as asking for evidence of people reporting it as justified criticism. You said you needed quotes. I, and others, added them. You then criticized a quote by saying it was not related to FNC (which is incorrect, it was, although it was not evident from the quote). You asked for "You need to provide reliable third-party sourcing to adequately support that contention." I added several more, including Kurtz who you suggested. You tell me the others on my list are partisan, so they are not evidence of a controversy (ignoring Kurtz, saying it is only "unimpressive"). I give you three more, which are also inadequate, although you have not told me why. I think we have been very accommodating to your requests, but as I say, the evidence you actually seek is elusive to me. --TeaDrinker (talk) 00:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Let me be clear, I brought this up with you, not to ANI or some other authority, because I only wanted to make you aware of what could be a problem, not persecute you for it,...
I can assure you sir that had I known I was going to be subjected to this level of obduracy in your inquiries here, some trumped up ANI harrassment initiated by you would have been a much preferred option. I have given you chapter and verse, multiple times explaining my position...elements of which apparently elude your retention beyond 2 paragraphs distant. I also ignored the WP:PA with which you commenced this now ridiculous charade of a dialogue and several more that followed. Now, after all this discourse, you are still confused as to what is my position on legitimate sourcing from non-partisan sources to support inclusion per the RfC. I'm returning to the RfC and will make my comments there. Please refrain from further inquiries here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Screwball23 at ANI noticeboard

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

This is in reference to the Linda McMahon articles.

TPG

Please take a moment to review the TPG guidelines. And please *don't* make spurious deletions William M. Connolley (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I made a good faith deletion under TPG guidelines which link directly to WP:NPA Mr. Connolly. With your kind indulgence, I'll await the outcome of a Misplaced Pages process review as to the "spurious" nature of that deletion. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Warning

I'm sorry to have to say this, but we really need to discourage the kind of drama, battleground, and ruleslawyering which you added to the CC case (which had enough of those features already) with these inappropriate accusations of "ad hominems" and "personal attacks". If you file another frivolous action on Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement, or again poke William M. Conolley with a stick, you will be banned from the Requests for enforcement page, or from interacting with or discussing WMC, whichever your behaviour makes more appropriate. Please edit constructively. Bishonen | talk 01:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC).

And WMC's numerous filing of far more frivolous complaints is, of course, ignored as usual? Fell Gleaming 01:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)