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Pinnacle Islands

A discussion thread about changing the name from Senkaku Islands to Pinnacle Islands reached no consensus at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Requested move. The name change was suggested in hopes of mitigating aspects of the long-standing territorial dispute, but other points of view were also persuasively presented. --Tenmei (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge

This article is seemingly intended to be a split of Senkaku islands rather than a new article. The original article doesn't seem to be long enough but anyway, please use a proper way to discuss a split. --Winstonlighter (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. Yes, this is intended as a sub-article of Senkaku Islands — addressing issues relating to the territorial dispute in detail while leaving the main article to develop in a non-controversial context.

This stub was explicitly created as a constructive response to Nihonjoe's comment here at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan#Senkaku Islands Content Split/Removal and in the context of Talk:Senkaku Islands#Discussion Regarding Content Split/Removal.

In corollary discussion threads, DXDanl suggested something promising. One phrase particularly deserves emphasis. The words imply a neutral tactic which can be adapted for use in other disputes which have not yet arisen:

"... help readers better understand what information is being disputed and what is not."

IMO, DXDanl identifies a step in a constructive direction; and I responded by posting this headnote hyperlink in the territorial dispute section of the article.

Main article: Senkaku Islands dispute

Something constructive can be achieved by refining the focus of attention. This article "jump-starts" a process of parsing conflated issues. :In addition, I see that this tactic has been used at Liancourt Rocks dispute and Spratly Islands dispute.

In language Winstonlighter used here, this article is merited as a plausible tactic to diffuse "nationalistic-driven warring" and to avert some of the harm caused by discussion threads which only "end up in a dead loop." --Tenmei (talk) 22:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment I'll get to this by Friday if no one else starts moving contents before then. I'm just working long hours this week, hence few edits. So far more people have concurred to the split; see WikiProject Japan's Talk Page, WikiProject China's Talk Page, and WikiProject Taiwan's Talk Page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DXDanl (talk • contribs) 08:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the disputed sections and the undisputed sections of the original wiki item (diaoyu/senkaku as a geographic location) needs to be separated within the item, so that reader can more easily identify the facts related to the item. but i do not think that necessarily means that a separate new item should be created, such that none of the information remain in the original item. San9663 (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I prefer a completely new article under the neutral title 'the Pinnacle Islands dispute' with a new structure; and it should break free from hijacking by the pro-Japanese editors as seen in the original article. STSC (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This split is fairly common, including for other issues in this area. See, for example, Liancourt Rocks and Liancourt Rocks dispute, or, for a naming dispute, see Sea of Japan and Sea of Japan naming dispute.

As for the title, I do think it's about time we had a discussion about the title of both articles. First, I think it's very clear that both have to have the same name--anything else flies in the face of common sense. As for which title it should have... Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Title of this article

Personally, I think both articles should continue to use the name "Senkaku Island". Just as a quick search, Google News pulls up over 1000 hits on "Senkaku Islands," including Japanese, U.S., and international sites. On a number of the non-Japanese sites, the name Senkaku is even used without any mention of the other 2 names "Pinnacle Islands" finds only 32 hits, only 3 of which appear to be about these islands and all of which list Pinnacle Islands after the Japanese and Chinese names. Now, searches like that are only a starting point, but the fact that the results are so lopsided is a good indication of a starting point. The next question would be which name is commonly used in international reference books, like other encyclopedias, academic journals (if their are any), and atlases/maps.

The only reason I can see to change the name would be if a large proportion of the international, English sources regularly used both names, and especially if they used them with a slash between them. In that case, we could say that since the English name is widely held to be disputed, but for Misplaced Pages we have to choose one name, we'll use the less common but neutral "Pinnacle Islands" name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwyrxian (talk • contribs) 23:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Google search does not take into the fact that multiple spelling would refer to the same name in its original language, eg, you need to add up the search results for diaoyu/diaoyutai/tiaoyu/tiaoyutai. Nonetheless, I do not understand why one can use Liancourt for one case and not use Pinnacle for the other. I am sure Liancourt turns up in google much less frequently than either Takeshima or Dokdo. If use are going to use Senkaku here, there is no reason not to use Dokdo for the other. San9663 (talk) 04:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, the governing guideline is Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names). The primary question is, is there a widely used English name (note that this doesn't mean it needs to be an English word, and it may be identical to the local word--for example, we use the words Paris and Berlin, even though those aren't "English"). So, we would have to ask whether or not Pinnacle Islands is widely used. We can see that, at least in a Google News search, it is not. Even looking at an archive search, with "Pinnacle Islands" in quotation marks, I only get 15 hits, and all mentions of that follow mention of either Senkaku Islands or Senkaku Islands and some version of the Chinese spelling. So we definitely shouldn't choose Pinnacle Islands as the standard English term, because that term simply isn't used regularly in English (at least in newspapers searched by Google News; I'd like to see some other results from other places as well).

However, as I mentioned above, there is another reason why we might use Pinnacle Islands. If anyone really wants to get into the issue, I recommend reading the entire archive history of Liancourt Rocks. Well, no, I take that back, I don't recommend anyone put themselves through so much pain. But, once upon a time, I did read the whole debate (I wasn't an active editor at the time of the main debate), and the dispute there boiled down to this (in very very brief summary): 1) the islands themselves, were hardly ever mentioned in English, because the truth is that the English speaking world really didn't care very much about the Rocks except to report recent clashes over ownership. 2) In almost all cases that the islands were mentioned, both Dokdo/Tokto (the Korean name) and Takeshima were named, with no particular preference for either. 3) As such, it was shown that there really was no "standard" English name. 4) Edit warring over the name was very aggressive, involved external canvassing, and non-stop (except when protection was applied). As such, it was decided (and consensus still holds) that since there was no standard English name, and choosing either of the local names was bound to continue the edit warring, the English name was chosen as the suboptimal-but-at-least-neutral 3rd option.

So, in this case, here's my summary of the issue for this article:

1. We need to determine if any of the three names is regularly used in English more than any other, by a substantial enough margin. When doing such an analysis, we need to be careful to "ignore" counts where the article says something like "Senkaku islands, or, as known in Chinese, Diayou", since those give no information either way. We also have to account for alternate spellings in Chinese, but again, if one article says "Diayou/Taiyou/etc.", that's still only 1 mention.
2. If Pinnacle islands is regularly used more than any other, we should almost certainly choose that name. This matches the precedent for something like Florence, even though the local name is "Firenze".
3. If either Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu is regularly used more than any other name, by a large, substantial margin, we should probably choose that name. Note that this matches the precedent for Sea of Japan.
4. If Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu is used more often, but not by a large margin, or if the names are used approximately equally, we should discuss the issue, but probably go with Pinnacle Islands, in keeping with the Liancourt Rocks precedent.

Of course, no matter what we choose, we leave redirects at all of the other names. Furthermore, we make both articles conform internally to the name chosen for the article title (this is mentioned in the above referenced guideline). Does this seem like a good framing of the discussion? Does anyone want to object to the process before we actually start make observations? I would really rather establish a consensus if we can, because the problem is that if we can't, we'll eventually end up at ArbCom (like, say, with the issues surrounding Ireland). Qwyrxian (talk) 04:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a big deal to me. But it just looks totally strange compared with the Liancout/dokdo/dokto/takeshima entry. It seems you are suggesting the fact that the final compromise of liancourt is just because there were too much edit warring, while the pro-neutral (or non-pro-japan) editors here are too civilized to do that. This seems a weird reason (though a plausible explanation) and sort of look like an unfair wiki phenomenon. San9663 (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was a little unclear; the edit-warring was actually a result, not the cause, of the underlying problem--no one could establish, definitively, whether Dokdo or Takeshima was more common in English (despite lots of painful arguing about statistical analysis, search terms, etc.). So, either they were actually used about equally in English, or editors were just unable to get a solid "proof" of which one was more common. As a result, it was almost logical for the partisans to continue to push for their own name, because each side had "evidence" that their name was more common. However, the reason why I think we don't need to do that here is that I believe that, in English articles/books/etc., the term actually used is Senkaku Islands, not a mix of the two. However, if someone could show me that that isn't the case, then we could look to alternative approaches. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I believe Diaoyu and Diaoyutai are both quite commonly used in English sites and documents. Try doing a search in major search engines. Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• Is this discussion posted taken into account the recently closed Requested move? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Rare earth metals

どうぞ:

• Oct 12, 2010, Japan, China to set up liaison system, Taipei Times

Quote: "Industry observers said a ban on exports of rare earth minerals to Japan remain, despite Chinese officials’ insistence that they had never stopped shipments... Separately, Chinese customs officials continued to prohibit all exports of rare earth minerals to Japan over the weekend, industry officials said, but the Chinese government showed signs of taking a more conciliatory stance toward Japan... Chinese Commerce Minister Chen Deming (陳德銘) suggested instead in a television interview on Sept. 26 that Chinese entrepreneurs in the rare earth industry might have halted shipments because of their own feelings toward Japan... Thirty-two companies in China have export licenses for rare earth minerals, and 10 of them are foreign. Chen did not address why the 10 foreign companies would have strong feelings toward Japan, or why all companies in the Chinese industry halted shipments on the same day, Sept. 21." Would it be possible that the point earlier removed regarding the export ban be added again, but reworded to take into account this newer information? Yes, China denies such export bans from taking place, but that doesn't explain why rare earth metals aren't making their way into Japan. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I think this shouldn't go into the article, not because of source, but because of WP:RECENTISM. The blocking of rare earth metals just isn't part of the "long term" story of the Senkaku Island dispute. If the issue is ongoing, it may be part of the greater Japan-China relations story, but it's only tangentially connected to disputed ownership of the Islands. In fact, I would argue that a lot of the recent history section should be simplified and summarized; right now it's not so important, but I'm hoping that once we can get past the more fundamental problems, that we can convert the timeline chronology into prose per normal article style. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it is too early to explain the 'rare earth' controversy. maybe we could simply quote the publicly known facts, e.g. rumour and china's officially denial (including from Wen). as to Lee's question of explanation, there are many plausible explanation for why the export was delayed, eg, it could be due to a general delay in all exports. see this FYI (not for the wiki though) http://agmetalminer.com/2010/10/01/clarifying-western-media-accounts-of-%E2%80%9Cchina-rare-earth-metal-ban%E2%80%9D/ San9663 (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No, my point is that even if China actually stopped the rare earth shipments, it was because of Japan holding one of their citizens (for what Japan said are legal reasons and China says were not). Thus, it's not about it being too early, it's that it doesn't belong in the article at all. It only seems related and important because it's so recent. That information could be discussed, maybe, in Japan-China relations, but it isn't closely enough connected to the Islands dispute to belong here. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Dubious addition

I removed this edit by Bobthefish2. Becasue the images used in ref pages are not relevant to the 10/02 protest. For instance, the third image is cleary not the 10/02 protest. You can see the sign says "天皇制もヤスクニもいらない". It means "We don't need the Imperial system nor Yasukuni". The name of the right wing group is "義進？？会". See the third image. They are not the conservative groups joined in the 10/02 protest. There's no signs which say "Senkaku" or "anti-China" in any of the images in ref. pages. All images look like a different protest. Four of the ref. pages the user used are in Chinese. And this one has nothing to do with Senkaku. The user's addition consisted of several pieces of information with dubious ref. pages and misleading. Please do not use Chinese news as source when there are sources in English. I also reverted this edit. Because Okinawa is is considered a synonym of Ryukyu. See Ryukyu Islands. Oda Mari (talk) 09:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I would strongly advise you to first discuss your disagreements before reverting someone else's work. I often do that before I delete other people's work and I expect the same from you. Now, I've reverted your reverts and I'd like the contents to stay until we've talked this through.

Now, here are some points:

(1) The date I put in my entry was October, 2010 and not October 2, 2010.

(2) There are many Japanese protests regarding this matter since the start of October, 2010.

(3) The reference pages are news reports and the images posted are presumably snapshots of the events. It is not necessary for photos with "Senkaku Islands" as a slogan to be included. If you happen to question the authenticities of the photos, then that's a different matter for a different discussion.

(4) If you happen to think any of the protesting groups are not right-winged at all, then we can change their labels to... say "political groups"

(5) If you happen to think some of the slogans in the figures are significant but not included, then they can be added

(6) Chinese news sources are often more informative in East Asian matters and thus equivalents are not necessarily existent in say... Globe and Mail, BBC, or other Western media.

(7) The article about nuclear weapon referenced Okinawa, which it is what the Japanese considered as the prefecture that encompassed "Senkaku Islands". You can delude yourself into thinking it is independent of the events relating to the islands.

(8) The Remin Ribao article talked about Ryukyu Islands (琉球諸島) and not Okinawa Prefecture (沖縄県). And of course, here's a quote from the Ryukyu Islands: "The islands are administratively divided into the Satsunan Islands to the north, belonging to Kagoshima Prefecture, and Ryūkyū Shotō to the south, belonging to Okinawa Prefecture, Japan".

Bobthefish2 (talk) 16:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted the edit again, on principle. Please read WP:BOLD and WP:BRD. If another editor reverts your edit, do not make the edit again without getting consensus. Otherwise you are edit warring and may be blocked. Please discuss the issue with other editors until there is agreement. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care if you cite WP:BRD and WP:BOLD. They aren't required procedures and aren't the only ways of keeping things in order. However, if you feel that strongly about leaving my content deleted until the end of discussion - fine, I'll be a gentleman and leave it this way for now... Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the description itself is unnecessary even if it is properly cited. (Although I agree with Oda Mari) There is already a description about the anti-Chinese protest. "2 October 2010: Large scale anti-Chinese protests occurred in Tokyo and six other cities in Japan". The addition is only intended to make a bad impressions of Japanese by bringing up nazi-era swastika irrelevant to this dispute. Historical events section is already cluttered with so many trivial events. There is no reason to further clutter this section with the trivial event.

As for the Ryukyu and Okinawa issue, please see the source.

"To make matters worse, when on January 8, 1953, Renmin Ribao , the official propaganda organ for the Communist Party, criticized the occupation of Rukyu Islands(or Okinawa Prefecture) by the United States, it stated that "the Ryukyu Islands are located northeast of our Taiwan Islands...including Senkaku Shoto. According to this statement, the PRC recognized that the Diaoyu (J:Senkaku) Islands were a part of Liuqiu Islands (or Okinawa Prefecture). In other words, the Diaoyu Islands belonged neither to Taiwan nor to mainland China, but to Japan."

It unambiguously states Rukyu Islands(or Okinawa Prefecture) twice. Please refrain from insisting the original research. Even if Ryukyu Islands include a part of Kagoshima, it depends on the context of the story. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

These events are relevant to this dispute because they constitute the reaction of certain population groups towards the dispute at one point. If they portray the Japanese in a negative way, then it is not intended, as the sources I cited are legitimate and were simply reporting observations. Again, if you have any concerns about their reliability, then that's a different matter and I would expect some good research to be done to defend such allegations.

Your other point ties directly to one of the reverts you've done in which you've failed to justify. To reiterate, the Japanese source cited is definitely mis-interpreting the Remin Ribao article because this is what the Remin Ribao article said:

"琉球群岛散布在我国台湾东北和日本九洲岛西南之间的海面上，包括尖阁诸岛、先岛诸岛、大东诸岛、冲绳诸岛、大岛诸岛、土噶喇诸岛、大隅诸岛等七组岛屿，每组都有许多大小岛."

which translates to:

"Ryukyu Islands are distributed between our nation's Taiwan's northeast and Japan's southwest, including 尖阁诸岛、先岛诸岛、大东诸岛、冲绳诸岛 (Okinawa Islands)、大岛诸岛、土噶喇诸岛、大隅诸岛."

For the rest of the article, Okinawa was only mentioned as Okinawa Islands (which is different to Okinawa Prefecture). Since you are Japanese and thus are familiar with Chinese characters, I trust you can validate that yourself. In the future, I'd appreciate it if you would get to know the context of an argument before butting your head in. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

controlled and administered by Japan since 1895??

This isn't quite right, is it? Between 1945 and 1972 it was not. San9663 (talk) 16:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The phrase which was questioned is now re-worded. Also, please note that inline citations from a reliable source are restored. An overview published by the Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea (NILOS) is useful in establishing context. These few sentences are intended to anchor the introductory section as a neutral, non-controversial context. The inline hyperlinks offer balanced restatements of contrasting points of view. --Tenmei (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

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